crown
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Post by crown on Aug 16, 2016 20:37:31 GMT -5
Where did this fallacy come from?
Shattered dreams when we found out it wasn't true.
Certain people swore up and down and Donner shot it... where was the sources that indicated this?
I remember being convinced that Donner did shoot it based on what I read and assumed Thau used the screen test because he simply couldn't find the completed scene.
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atp
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Post by atp on Aug 17, 2016 8:34:23 GMT -5
Where did the other fallacy come from, namely that the Donner Cut was going to be so much better than the theatrical, and that the Salkinds were the bad guys?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 17, 2016 10:34:11 GMT -5
Where did the other fallacy come from, namely that the Donner Cut was going to be so much better than the theatrical, and that the Salkinds were the bad guys? From looking at what Donner shot in STM and parts of SII. The RDC is just a disappointing weird circus show. Thau may have had great intentions, but the end result is horrific with its editing. I don't think the Salkinds were necessarily the 'bad guys' (though the practices of not paying workers is not cool) - but if STM was a passion project in the beginning- with completing SII - even Salkind says he was distracted by personal relationship stuff by the end of completing SII to really pay attention to what Lester was doing towards the end. (The ridiculous 'freeze breath' would-be comedy schtick Lester stuck into the Metro battle) If there really was a money issue- then I would have hoped that the Salkinds had kept Donner, but let him know about the budget restrictions to complete SII - even if the effects would have ended up looking like SIV, where Donner excels are the dramatic scenes. But- since things went sour a long time ago on shooting STM- It's definitely an open question whether or not the remark Donner made about Spengler was the breaking point or not. It also begs the question if Donner had pushed for Mank to stay on and protect the property after being fired, if Lester would have capitulated just by the time constraints, and SII had turned out closer to what Donner had in mind in the long run. In any case- fans are the giant beneficiaries of both the Salkinds' daringness and Donner's artistry, decades later. But what could have been...... so sad. But at least we have a feeble shadow of what was possible by having SOME of the footage available.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 18, 2016 3:23:29 GMT -5
Where did the other fallacy come from, namely that the Donner Cut was going to be so much better than the theatrical, and that the Salkinds were the bad guys? From looking at what Donner shot in STM and parts of SII. The RDC is just a disappointing weird circus show. Thau may have had great intentions, but the end result is horrific with its editing. I don't think the Salkinds were necessarily the 'bad guys' (though the practices of not paying workers is not cool) - but if STM was a passion project in the beginning- with completing SII - even Salkind says he was distracted by personal relationship stuff by the end of completing SII to really pay attention to what Lester was doing towards the end. (The ridiculous 'freeze breath' would-be comedy schtick Lester stuck into the Metro battle) If there really was a money issue- then I would have hoped that the Salkinds had kept Donner, but let him know about the budget restrictions to complete SII - even if the effects would have ended up looking like SIV, where Donner excels are the dramatic scenes. But- since things went sour a long time ago on shooting STM- It's definitely an open question whether or not the remark Donner made about Spengler was the breaking point or not. It also begs the question if Donner had pushed for Mank to stay on and protect the property after being fired, if Lester would have capitulated just by the time constraints, and SII had turned out closer to what Donner had in mind in the long run. In any case- fans are the giant beneficiaries of both the Salkinds' daringness and Donner's artistry, decades later. But what could have been...... so sad. But at least we have a feeble shadow of what was possible by having SOME of the footage available. Hate to say it but that fallacy came from Donner himself. I desperately wanted his (at the time) unseen SII to be superior. IMHO nearly everything Lester re-shot was better. the Eiffel tower easily trumps the opening Lois jumping out of a window scene. heck , Lois jumping off at Niagra is better than Lois jumping off at the daily planet. Even the insert shots(Lois reacting to the return of Supes on the Daily Planet ledge).......the Lester re-shoot where Lois says "Superman!" is way better than the Donner one. Either that or Thau made poor editing choices....most likely a combination. Victor Smith chose far better Donner material in the theatrical version than Thau did 25 years later.....lol. It pisses me off that Lester won't comment now. But it also pissed me off that Donner exaggerated the quality of his own SII footage(which was easy to do when no one could see it). Truth be told....I think Donner was envious that Lester was still able to make SII work as well as it did in 1980. But his campaign to convince that everything Lester shot was crap(it worked on me until the Donner cut became available).....was very effective.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2016 10:59:37 GMT -5
From looking at what Donner shot in STM and parts of SII. The RDC is just a disappointing weird circus show. Thau may have had great intentions, but the end result is horrific with its editing. I don't think the Salkinds were necessarily the 'bad guys' (though the practices of not paying workers is not cool) - but if STM was a passion project in the beginning- with completing SII - even Salkind says he was distracted by personal relationship stuff by the end of completing SII to really pay attention to what Lester was doing towards the end. (The ridiculous 'freeze breath' would-be comedy schtick Lester stuck into the Metro battle) If there really was a money issue- then I would have hoped that the Salkinds had kept Donner, but let him know about the budget restrictions to complete SII - even if the effects would have ended up looking like SIV, where Donner excels are the dramatic scenes. But- since things went sour a long time ago on shooting STM- It's definitely an open question whether or not the remark Donner made about Spengler was the breaking point or not. It also begs the question if Donner had pushed for Mank to stay on and protect the property after being fired, if Lester would have capitulated just by the time constraints, and SII had turned out closer to what Donner had in mind in the long run. In any case- fans are the giant beneficiaries of both the Salkinds' daringness and Donner's artistry, decades later. But what could have been...... so sad. But at least we have a feeble shadow of what was possible by having SOME of the footage available. Hate to say it but that fallacy came from Donner himself. I desperately wanted his (at the time) unseen SII to be superior. IMHO nearly everything Lester re-shot was better. the Eiffel tower easily trumps the opening Lois jumping out of a window scene. heck , Lois jumping off at Niagra is better than Lois jumping off at the daily planet. Even the insert shots(Lois reacting to the return of Supes on the Daily Planet ledge).......the Lester re-shoot where Lois says "Superman!" is way better than the Donner one. Either that or Thau made poor editing choices....most likely a combination. Victor Smith chose far better Donner material in the theatrical version than Thau did 25 years later.....lol. It pisses me off that Lester won't comment now. But it also pissed me off that Donner exaggerated the quality of his own SII footage(which was easy to do when no one could see it). Truth be told....I think Donner was envious that Lester was still able to make SII work as well as it did in 1980. But his campaign to convince that everything Lester shot was crap(it worked on me until the Donner cut became available).....was very effective. The Eiffel tower bit feels bigger because of the location shooting, and it's not the worst offense to me by Lester, but I much prefer the tiny character bits in the DP jump (and it wasn't completed properly either- the Mank script shows a nice bit I liked where Lois is looking at Clark but seeing Superman back and forth after sketching his image over clark's in the newspaper). The jump itself is incomplete. As is, I could see the preference of the Eiffel Tower/Water Jump over the DP jump. On face value, if it was the ONLY change that Lester made to the original vision for SII, I'd probably be fine with it. The Lois jumping into the Niagara falls waters is funnier- I definitely agree ("Swim lois! Swim!" , but the dynamics that were changed in the Lester rewrite for Lois just REALLY made her unlikeable (Clark was the faux grumpy one at Niagara, Lois the perky funny one). I have such distaste for Thau's choices throughout the RDC, it's no question that Baird and Smith were better editors. There are bits I think Lester did well, but the intentional changing of the tones that were carefully setup (making the Criminals comedic, rather than menacing) and taking full credit for the best sequences (the moon attack, the white house bits, well, all the Hackman bits) and the stuff that just went far over the top (Metro Battle slapstick with the stuff blowing around)- undermined what was already planned that it pissed me off more than what Donner may have felt about his own footage. I actually read about the Lester replacement before SII came in the theatres and thought: "Well, if Lester removes the comedy schtick from Supes, it'll be maybe even better than STM"- (I hated the Donner bits that went over the top with Luthor/Otis in STM) who knew it would be the reverse? I'm not (or wasn't) anti-Lester until SII came out. To me the biggest proof of who the better director (for this material) was: STM- 100% Donner (who made all the decisions from the ground up) SUPERMAN III- 100% Lester SII- Who shot most of the best footage/sequences? The RDC I don't count for comparison because it was just a horrible horrible edit job. The IRC could be (love the balcony and the chat outside the fortress) held up though. Stuff that didn't need to be touched (mostly Thau said he didn't touch the Baird-edited stuff, but he still did in microbits from close examination) But.... It's all subjective. In the end, yeah, the theatrical actually has a comprehensive FLOW, whereas the RDC (as cut) feels so truncated that it's difficult to watch without the idea in one's head that it's a rough cut with MANY missing pieces. I just wish one of these things had happened when the RDC came out: 1- Extra/Alternate takes of the Brando and Reeve stuff that Donner shot--- Donner wasn't a 'one take' director. So, the footage is THERE. If Thau did cut the Brando/Reeve stuff properly, then I'd be more inclined to agree that the footage might not have been superior. (Though also remember the timing- Presumably, Donner was rushing through shooting tons of footage for STM/SII- there was a break & he got fired/quit... how fresh could the sequences be in his head about his own footage?) 2- A far better editor for the RDC cut. The IRC is superior to all the cuts imo, including the restored Donner footage. 3- Storyboards in place (like they did for the scifi film Metropolis) to show exactly what was planned in spots, versus using footage that has already changed too much in tone. Anyhow.... Donner signed off on the RDC. So, yeah, he does have to take responsibility for it, though. I am glad to have been able to see what we got, though, rather than nothing at all, ever. I can understand why people prefer the theatrical versus the RDC. (I can view half of it without getting irritated. My irritation started when I got ahold of the Mankiewicz script at a convention a couple of years after, so knowing what we could have got blew my mind) But- doesn't change for me the feeling that SII would have been far better served (low budget or not) having the original director to complete what he started. It doesn't mean that another director couldn't have come in and done better in bits- I'll give credit to Lester for a few bits I liked, but the flip side is that the damage he caused in the rewrite overshadows the good bits he did, do. Again, though- this is all preference. I'm just glad that there are fan editors out there who can create the best of both worlds.
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crown
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Post by crown on Aug 18, 2016 14:02:21 GMT -5
No one is being intellectually honest if they think that Donner wouldn't have made an immeasurably better Superman II than Lester if he had been allowed to finish it.
Also.. I defy anyone to watch ONLY the Donner SII footage in chronological order followed by ONLY the Lester SII footage in chronological order and then tell me which "partially completed" film is better.
Donner ALL THE WAY!!!!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2016 15:07:28 GMT -5
No one is being intellectually honest if they think that Donner wouldn't have made an immeasurably better Superman II than Lester if he had been allowed to finish it. Also.. I defy anyone to watch ONLY the Donner SII footage in chronological order followed by ONLY the Lester SII footage in chronological order and then tell me which "partially completed" film is better. Donner ALL THE WAY!!!! Lester's reshooting skills are competent (if at times sloppy, I can't get past that rodent on top of Lois's head in the DP reshoots), but I think Lester's completing of SII is equivalent to Ratner completing Singer's X-men trilogy: the rewrites soften the edge of the original material and made more of the original material seem superficial in its execution. (i.e.- the villains taking over the small town and the sheriffs as comic relief vs. the original idea of the villains destroying monuments symbolically around the world, but not as a gag.... Xmen 3's less subtle and less layered battle between Iceman and Pyro, the 'happy ending' that even the cast didn't really want) If Donner ONLY shot STM and no footage for SII- and Lester had taken over completely, to be fair, the basic story is strong enough that I think it would have been an okay film- but one that would have delivered far less on the spectacle under his rewrite and one that just delivered drama on the surface level (compare the Lester pink bears scene to the Donner balcony scene). I probably would have liked it more had there not been the expectations set by the level of quality of STM and had there been no Donner material whatsoever in SII. From a producer's point of view, Lester was probably a dream to work with. Little to fast setups and shoots. Gets the job done enough, fast, and cheap. Donner, on the other hand, seemed to have meticulous setups, multiple takes. Wanted things just right. (Which makes the Brando scenes in the RDC a headscratcher because it felt like many of the wrong takes chosen under the editor) To me, Superman III (that had the freedom of rewrites under the director, as Donner had freedom to rewrite STM/SII) was the chance for Lester to say to the world: "I'm just as good a director as Donner". But, it was an unfunny Richard Pryor Superman sequel. Didn't deliver on much of anything, despite a good cast. But it was Lester's chance to really shine, uninterrupted (from what we can tell). Anyhow- It's all subjective. Many like Lester's SIII here. Many like what Lester shot over Donner's material in the RDC. I'll grant that the final theatrical runs fairly smooth for a schizo project, barring the last act, even if I didn't agree with the changed tone. But I'll also echo the RDC didn't seem like it had much of a chance, given how poorly the editorial decisions were throughout that whole project.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 18, 2016 16:30:43 GMT -5
No one is being intellectually honest if they think that Donner wouldn't have made an immeasurably better Superman II than Lester if he had been allowed to finish it. Also.. I defy anyone to watch ONLY the Donner SII footage in chronological order followed by ONLY the Lester SII footage in chronological order and then tell me which "partially completed" film is better. Donner ALL THE WAY!!!! IMHO Zemekis and the Wachowskis never rose to the same heights for parts II and III of Back To the Future and the Matrix respectively. Donner would have also have to have coped without the services of John Barry,Les Bowie and Geoffrey Unsworth. Brando could also have been out of the equation. That is 4 critical components of STM. So I don't think it would have been a guarantee that his version would have been better. It is also difficult to compare Donner's footage to Lester in the manner that you suggest. Lester shot his footage knowing that it would have to complement the pre-existing Donner footage(at certain points). Donner shot his footage for SII with the intention that only he would complete it(which is fair enough of course). So 2 different contexts and intentions.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 18, 2016 16:40:53 GMT -5
@ CAM
I agree with all your reasons behind why you favor Donner's material.
They are exactly the same reasons why I went through a phase of disliking Lester's stuff.
Now i think about it......perhaps it would have been best if instead of trying to implement a completed film for the RDC......they could have released what would effectively have been an extensive deleted scenes compilation.
But they could have shown various takes of exactly the same sequences (and shots). Obviously it would not have been a very marketable product(like a completed film ala RDC)......but still interesting.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2016 17:01:59 GMT -5
@ CAM I agree with all your reasons behind why you favor Donner's material. They are exactly the same reasons why I went through a phase of disliking Lester's stuff. Now i think about it......perhaps it would have been best if instead of trying to implement a completed film for the RDC......they could have released what would effectively have been an extensive deleted scenes compilation. But they could have shown various takes of exactly the same sequences (and shots). Obviously it would not have been a very marketable product(like a completed film ala RDC)......but still interesting. Hey Dejan- That's cool.... but I just want to make sure I'm clear I don't need anyone to agree or disagree, but I always hope I'm respectful when sharing my own opinion without squashing other dissenting opinions. I totally agree that I would have preferred a bonus disc of all the deleted scenes, and alternate takes--- the trailer for the dvd/snippets made my expectations go through the roof.... I figured AT LEAST it would have been as good as the IRC. If I didn't also see the IRC, where some of the extra Donner scenes were far better cut/edited (specifically the talk outside the Fortress/balcony scenes), I wouldn't have come down so hard on Thau's editing or even question if there were better takes. (the bit of Clark rushing into the Fortress probably had at least one or two variations where he wasn't rushed- as it makes more sense tonewise with the preceding scenes) To this day, I'm not sure if I should give Thau more credit for pushing at the right time- assuming that he was the ONLY one pushing at this stage for a recut before dvds starting shrinking on extras and so forth.... or if I should bash Thau more if someone else was going to get the thing done properly. Pity there isn't more of a market for Superman II extras to push WB to make even more footage available, but at least we got what we got.... *sigh*
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crown
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Post by crown on Aug 18, 2016 19:41:02 GMT -5
Donner would have made so much better a film then Lester did.
The proof is in the Donner footage.
Say what you want about the RDC... the actual Donner SCENES were all great.
Also if you really want to compare just the Donner and Lester footage, while IMHO the Donner stuff easily wins out, Lester already had a built in advantage.
Specifically, and like what was previously said, Lester had the advantage of building off Donner's framework and knowing the exact shots needed to complete Superman II. He could work around Donner, keep what worked for him, and reshoot what didn't.
Donner on the other hand, NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY to focus solely on SII.. he never had the chance to give the film his undivided attention. There wasn't a single day Donner worked on SII that he wasn't also working on STM simultaneously.
Even with this handicap, the Donner footage is still superior to the Lester footage.
And this is what we should be comparing... not cuts of the movie but the actual footage each director shot.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2016 20:26:39 GMT -5
No one is being intellectually honest if they think that Donner wouldn't have made an immeasurably better Superman II than Lester if he had been allowed to finish it. Also.. I defy anyone to watch ONLY the Donner SII footage in chronological order followed by ONLY the Lester SII footage in chronological order and then tell me which "partially completed" film is better. Donner ALL THE WAY!!!! IMHO Zemekis and the Wachowskis never rose to the same heights for parts II and III of Back To the Future and the Matrix respectively. Donner would have also have to have coped without the services of John Barry,Les Bowie and Geoffrey Unsworth. Brando could also have been out of the equation. That is 4 critical components of STM. So I don't think it would have been a guarantee that his version would have been better. It is also difficult to compare Donner's footage to Lester in the manner that you suggest. Lester shot his footage knowing that it would have to complement the pre-existing Donner footage(at certain points). Donner shot his footage for SII with the intention that only he would complete it(which is fair enough of course). So 2 different contexts and intentions. It's true that there's no guarantees- but (imo) the Donner sequences that survived the theatrical (and IRC) are such a standout, that I think it's that - and the Mank script - that makes me feel like it had a great shot..... even if Donner had to go on without Brando- and some of his other artists (as well as possibly budget). What I wonder is if it was another person who became mediator between the producers and Donner- if that person could have saved Donner's job and convinced Donner to get through it even with a low(er?) budget. Though.... from what I read- outside of trimming the Metro battle, there's a lot to suggest that the other sequences (if you kept the DP jump, not done the Effeil Tower sequence nor the water jump) might have cost the same and/or had become cheaper than the reshoots that Lester did. I know that this is pure fan speculation, but just for fun: let's tally it up... SCENARIO #1: KEEPING DONNER List of full sequences needed to shoot in its entirety (according to the script): #1: Nasa base sequence (more intense and more extras if going by the Mank version) #2: Niagara Rescue (would have added the bit with the kid falling asleep in the boat to make it more intense) #3: Honeymoon Haven (2 scenes- one of which had the screen test) #4: Metro battle- beginning/middle/end #5: Villains land and kill the sheriffs in Houston (desert road) #6: Zod's speech on top of the Washington Monument/destroys the Monument #7: The 'home movies' scene was written in a way that didn't require a landing by Supes/Lois. Could have saved money on rebuilding the huge FOS set for a small mockup. List of specific bits: #7: Jorel and Lois closeups (if push came to shove, I'd think that Donner would just recast versus uprooting the intent of the Mank script to make it about fathers)... if you wanted to save money and keep the Reeve repowering/depowering footage. #8: Ursa's destruction cutaway of the Effeil Tower (the model was already built, but it would have be shot destroying it with heat vision) #9: Non's destruction of Rushmore (the model stuff supposedly was already shot, but I don't know if the Non footage was shot or not) #10: A new ending scene (I think it would be a more romantic version of the memory kiss instead of time reversal again) SCENARIO #2: WHAT LESTER COST THEM: #1: Effeil Tower sequence #2: Niagara (though it may have been slightly cheaper without the boat, it costs more because of the water jump) #3: Honeymoon Haven scenes (probably would have cost the same, one of the cheaper situations it looked like) #4: Metro battle- they built a whole street set (lit like a cheap set unfortunately) - while the rewrite kept it to mostly one location, at the same time- I think if Donner had been told he had to keep the budget tight for it, he could have constrained it to the same cost, but with a darker tone. (The set also gets a second use with the 'taxi crash', but nobody seems in love with that scene) #5: Rebuilding the whole FOS set- While it's true that Lester designs a few scenes in this location, Lester puts in an extra action sequence, but the energy (to me) fell flat after the wind-blowing comedy bit. I'm not a line producer, so I can't do real estimates- but I imagine that much of the more expensive Mank stuff would have been done in bluescreen (i.e. the Washington MOnument bit)- and the 'villains rule the world' bits would have removed the need to build that whole 'East Houston' small village. On the surface, it looks like the costs would have been relatively the same (if you trimmed/redesigned a few of the Metro battle bits in the Mank script).... but, again, this is all fun speculation. Any other thoughts?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 18, 2016 20:30:21 GMT -5
Donner would have made so much better a film then Lester did. The proof is in the Donner footage. Say what you want about the RDC... the actual Donner SCENES were all great. Also if you really want to compare just the Donner and Lester footage, while IMHO the Donner stuff easily wins out, Lester already had a built in advantage. Specifically, and like what was previously said, Lester had the advantage of building off Donner's framework and knowing the exact shots needed to complete Superman II. He could work around Donner, keep what worked for him, and reshoot what didn't. Donner on the other hand, NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY to focus solely on SII.. he never had the chance to give the film his undivided attention. There wasn't a single day Donner worked on SII that he wasn't also working on STM simultaneously. Even with this handicap, the Donner footage is still superior to the Lester footage. And this is what we should be comparing... not cuts of the movie but the actual footage each director shot. Agreed. Lester would have been great for a cheap shoot (maybe Superman IV?)--- but the scale and the perfectionism of the Donner footage made STM and parts of SII special. The choice of footage and performance takes is questionable under the Thau cut, though- but without access to the alternate takes (and without the original editor), we can't know for sure, but speculate. I like to look at the WHOLE of Donner's career with the level of quality and performances- and I think it is proof that Donner plays on a much higher level than Lester does.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 19, 2016 12:09:56 GMT -5
Hate to say it but that fallacy came from Donner himself. I desperately wanted his (at the time) unseen SII to be superior. IMHO nearly everything Lester re-shot was better. the Eiffel tower easily trumps the opening Lois jumping out of a window scene. heck , Lois jumping off at Niagra is better than Lois jumping off at the daily planet. Even the insert shots(Lois reacting to the return of Supes on the Daily Planet ledge).......the Lester re-shoot where Lois says "Superman!" is way better than the Donner one. Either that or Thau made poor editing choices....most likely a combination. Victor Smith chose far better Donner material in the theatrical version than Thau did 25 years later.....lol. It pisses me off that Lester won't comment now. But it also pissed me off that Donner exaggerated the quality of his own SII footage(which was easy to do when no one could see it). Truth be told....I think Donner was envious that Lester was still able to make SII work as well as it did in 1980. But his campaign to convince that everything Lester shot was crap(it worked on me until the Donner cut became available).....was very effective. The Eiffel tower bit feels bigger because of the location shooting, and it's not the worst offense to me by Lester, but I much prefer the tiny character bits in the DP jump (and it wasn't completed properly either- the Mank script shows a nice bit I liked where Lois is looking at Clark but seeing Superman back and forth after sketching his image over clark's in the newspaper). The jump itself is incomplete. As is, I could see the preference of the Eiffel Tower/Water Jump over the DP jump. On face value, if it was the ONLY change that Lester made to the original vision for SII, I'd probably be fine with it. The Lois jumping into the Niagara falls waters is funnier- I definitely agree ("Swim lois! Swim!" , but the dynamics that were changed in the Lester rewrite for Lois just REALLY made her unlikeable (Clark was the faux grumpy one at Niagara, Lois the perky funny one). I have such distaste for Thau's choices throughout the RDC, it's no question that Baird and Smith were better editors. There are bits I think Lester did well, but the intentional changing of the tones that were carefully setup (making the Criminals comedic, rather than menacing) and taking full credit for the best sequences (the moon attack, the white house bits, well, all the Hackman bits) and the stuff that just went far over the top (Metro Battle slapstick with the stuff blowing around)- undermined what was already planned that it pissed me off more than what Donner may have felt about his own footage. I actually read about the Lester replacement before SII came in the theatres and thought: "Well, if Lester removes the comedy schtick from Supes, it'll be maybe even better than STM"- (I hated the Donner bits that went over the top with Luthor/Otis in STM) who knew it would be the reverse? I'm not (or wasn't) anti-Lester until SII came out. To me the biggest proof of who the better director (for this material) was: STM- 100% Donner (who made all the decisions from the ground up) SUPERMAN III- 100% Lester SII- Who shot most of the best footage/sequences? The RDC I don't count for comparison because it was just a horrible horrible edit job. The IRC could be (love the balcony and the chat outside the fortress) held up though. Stuff that didn't need to be touched (mostly Thau said he didn't touch the Baird-edited stuff, but he still did in microbits from close examination) But.... It's all subjective. In the end, yeah, the theatrical actually has a comprehensive FLOW, whereas the RDC (as cut) feels so truncated that it's difficult to watch without the idea in one's head that it's a rough cut with MANY missing pieces. I just wish one of these things had happened when the RDC came out: 1- Extra/Alternate takes of the Brando and Reeve stuff that Donner shot--- Donner wasn't a 'one take' director. So, the footage is THERE. If Thau did cut the Brando/Reeve stuff properly, then I'd be more inclined to agree that the footage might not have been superior. (Though also remember the timing- Presumably, Donner was rushing through shooting tons of footage for STM/SII- there was a break & he got fired/quit... how fresh could the sequences be in his head about his own footage?) 2- A far better editor for the RDC cut. The IRC is superior to all the cuts imo, including the restored Donner footage. 3- Storyboards in place (like they did for the scifi film Metropolis) to show exactly what was planned in spots, versus using footage that has already changed too much in tone. Anyhow.... Donner signed off on the RDC. So, yeah, he does have to take responsibility for it, though. I am glad to have been able to see what we got, though, rather than nothing at all, ever. I can understand why people prefer the theatrical versus the RDC. (I can view half of it without getting irritated. My irritation started when I got ahold of the Mankiewicz script at a convention a couple of years after, so knowing what we could have got blew my mind) But- doesn't change for me the feeling that SII would have been far better served (low budget or not) having the original director to complete what he started. It doesn't mean that another director couldn't have come in and done better in bits- I'll give credit to Lester for a few bits I liked, but the flip side is that the damage he caused in the rewrite overshadows the good bits he did, do. Again, though- this is all preference. I'm just glad that there are fan editors out there who can create the best of both worlds. To be fair the comparison I made between The Daily Planet opening for SII under Donner and the Eiffel Tower under Lester was incorrect as they are not really the same scene in terms of defining an objective. The Niagra "jump" however is more appropriate(as a comparison) as it is technically a re-shoot of the daily Planet "jump" in terms of the intent of the piece. I feel Lester nailed it here in terms of suspense ,drama and comedy.....aswell as providing some gorgeous cinematography(watching it in 4K on a 110inch screen really emphasizes the scale of the falls)......I do feel SII has been shortchanged by it's home video transfers(until the Blu ray)......it's definitely not "cheap". The chemistry between Kidder and Reeve is more organic and there is a more measured pace to their dialogue exchange. The actors and Lester should take credit here. I feel the Daily Planet interaction between Reeve and Kidder seems a little rushed.Crown made the point that filming 2 flicks may have been a factor. On this occasion I think it was to the detriment of the material.If Donner had completed SII in 1979 I think he would have junked those 1977 takes and done a re-shoot of his own. In terms of the "menace" of the 3 Villains. It depends on the context. Lester knew he could effectively slack off with his own material(in terms of primordial violence)....because the Donner footage already contained substantial serious killings. On my first time viewing in 1981 that moon sequence scared the crap out of me(which was Donner's intent of course).......for kids that scene was borderline for what was acceptable(Raiders Of The Lost Ark would redefine those parameters that same summer in 81').....don't get me wrong ...I love that Moon stuff. Lester used that moon sequence as a great intro......the "menace" for the villains of the piece (courtesy of Donner's skill)......was now established for the rest of the flick. I personally believe if that Lester had re-shot the entire moon sequence himself, the villains would have been just as savage.....and Lester could do it(the SIII Clark vs Evil Supes fight is the most brutal part of the Salkind trilogy) So Lester was using Donner's menace to complement his own stuff to create a cohesive whole. remember in 1981.....no one had ever seen a woman literally blow a helicopter into a barn.....or deflect fire with super breath. All that stuff allied to Donner's excellent White House and Daily Planet bashings made the villains bad booty(for 1981). The part where Zod throws ol' Boog through the wall was shocking and amazing as a first time viewer. We have all seen SII so many times we tend to forget that subliminal aspect. The Villains looked human......but they did incredibly inhuman/superhuman things........that immediately resonated with me as a kid. They did not look like Ferrigno's TV Hulk ........but they had greater strength So facing off Donner's destruction to Lester's is not correct in my view because Lester was not competing......merely augmenting what Donner had done. I remember people laughing at Non's attempts to fry the snake and make a dent in the wood with his heat vision.......and gasps when he eventually hits that jeep with said heat vision. I downloaded the script for SII many years back(not long after the RDC was released) and like you I also salivate over what could have been. I do have some reservations regarding the "villains taking over the world" the way it was scripted......mainly seen through TV broadcasts showing the worldwide destruction( a common storytelling technique now).......for 1981 I don't think it would have worked...... it would have been too fast and probably lacked that up close and personal angle we got with East Huston which was more intimate no doubt.....but you got a good look at what the bad guys could do. Lester knew that by allying that East Huston stuff to Donner's there would be enough as a whole to generate enough animosity towards the villains from the audience's point of view. It definitely worked, because there was clapping and cheering when Supes showed up on that ledge to confront Zod and Co on 2 separate viewings(in 1981 and 1982 for me). I will always remember that. So anyways.....as you say CAM....it is all subjective......but those are some of my reasons for backing Lester in this instance.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 12:38:28 GMT -5
From looking at what Donner shot in STM and parts of SII. The RDC is just a disappointing weird circus show. Thau may have had great intentions, but the end result is horrific with its editing. I don't think the Salkinds were necessarily the 'bad guys' (though the practices of not paying workers is not cool) - but if STM was a passion project in the beginning- with completing SII - even Salkind says he was distracted by personal relationship stuff by the end of completing SII to really pay attention to what Lester was doing towards the end. (The ridiculous 'freeze breath' would-be comedy schtick Lester stuck into the Metro battle) If there really was a money issue- then I would have hoped that the Salkinds had kept Donner, but let him know about the budget restrictions to complete SII - even if the effects would have ended up looking like SIV, where Donner excels are the dramatic scenes. But- since things went sour a long time ago on shooting STM- It's definitely an open question whether or not the remark Donner made about Spengler was the breaking point or not. It also begs the question if Donner had pushed for Mank to stay on and protect the property after being fired, if Lester would have capitulated just by the time constraints, and SII had turned out closer to what Donner had in mind in the long run. In any case- fans are the giant beneficiaries of both the Salkinds' daringness and Donner's artistry, decades later. But what could have been...... so sad. But at least we have a feeble shadow of what was possible by having SOME of the footage available. Hate to say it but that fallacy came from Donner himself. I desperately wanted his (at the time) unseen SII to be superior. IMHO nearly everything Lester re-shot was better. the Eiffel tower easily trumps the opening Lois jumping out of a window scene. heck , Lois jumping off at Niagra is better than Lois jumping off at the daily planet. Even the insert shots(Lois reacting to the return of Supes on the Daily Planet ledge).......the Lester re-shoot where Lois says "Superman!" is way better than the Donner one. Either that or Thau made poor editing choices....most likely a combination. Victor Smith chose far better Donner material in the theatrical version than Thau did 25 years later.....lol. It pisses me off that Lester won't comment now. But it also pissed me off that Donner exaggerated the quality of his own SII footage(which was easy to do when no one could see it). Truth be told....I think Donner was envious that Lester was still able to make SII work as well as it did in 1980. But his campaign to convince that everything Lester shot was crap(it worked on me until the Donner cut became available).....was very effective. The very concept of Lois jumping out the window was ridiculous. The actual visual of it was worse. I've never liked it. I guess that could be put more on Thau. Maybe Donner could have composited it better back then but I prefer the Niagra Falls jump Donner shoots more cinematically but Lesters strength was his pop art comic book visual style. More color, sharper focus, different kind of lighting, etc. That's one thing II has going for it. It's not necessarily "better" than Donners style but I do think it suits something so comic booky like the battle with the Phantom Zone criminals. Donners almost reverential old Hollywood dramatic style works for a origin story/almost bible style epic like STM but Lesters pop style works for a straight into the adventure comic book movie like SII. Lester had the advantage of going through Donners footage and seeing what worked and what didn't and improving it while actors like Reeve had time to work on their performances and fine tune them. If you compare the Donner and Lester scenes where Clark walks into the powered down Fortress begging for Jor Els help Reeve's performance is far better in the Lester footage. Donners flying scenes look more dynamic though because he was more ambitious with the camera and the choreography. In the end Donner and Lesters styles clashes a little but strangely they also balanced each other out. When left to craft his own superman movie without Donners material to build on or guide him we got the lackluster cheesy Superman III. BUT...Lesters footage in II, trying to work with Donners, actually adds some much needed flair to Donners original SII footage. Most of Donners replacement footage (where they shot the same scenes) in II wasnt nearly as exciting or rousing as Lesters. "General...haven't you heard of freedom of the press" is just sh!t. It's like pouring a big bucket of water on a fire. So anti climactic. I also think the villians physically looked better in the Lester footage. Stamps hair looked better and the bit of gray in it made him look more distinguished. Someone put up the idea that it would have been cool if their look in the Donner footage (pale skin, sunken in eyes, more contrast) was them just out of the phantom some while their healthier more tan and robust looks in the Lester footage was an effect of them being exposed to the yellow sun of earth. It's too bad it couldn't have actually been planned that way. The best version of Superman II is somewhere between their footage. WB just needs to hire someone to find the right balance.
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crown
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Post by crown on Aug 19, 2016 13:36:49 GMT -5
Hate to say it but that fallacy came from Donner himself. I desperately wanted his (at the time) unseen SII to be superior. IMHO nearly everything Lester re-shot was better. the Eiffel tower easily trumps the opening Lois jumping out of a window scene. heck , Lois jumping off at Niagra is better than Lois jumping off at the daily planet. Even the insert shots(Lois reacting to the return of Supes on the Daily Planet ledge).......the Lester re-shoot where Lois says "Superman!" is way better than the Donner one. Either that or Thau made poor editing choices....most likely a combination. Victor Smith chose far better Donner material in the theatrical version than Thau did 25 years later.....lol. It pisses me off that Lester won't comment now. But it also pissed me off that Donner exaggerated the quality of his own SII footage(which was easy to do when no one could see it). Truth be told....I think Donner was envious that Lester was still able to make SII work as well as it did in 1980. But his campaign to convince that everything Lester shot was crap(it worked on me until the Donner cut became available).....was very effective. The very concept of Lois jumping out the window was ridiculous. The actual visual of it was worse. I've never liked it. I guess that could be put more on Thau. Maybe Donner could have composited it better back then but I prefer the Niagra Falls jump Donner shoots more cinematically but Lesters strength was his pop art comic book visual style. More color, sharper focus, different kind of lighting, etc. That's one thing II has going for it. It's not necessarily "better" than Donners style but I do think it suits something so comic booky like the battle with the Phantom Zone criminals. Donners almost reverential old Hollywood dramatic style works for a origin story/almost bible style epic like STM but Lesters pop style works for a straight into the adventure comic book movie like SII. Lester had the advantage of going through Donners footage and seeing what worked and what didn't and improving it while actors like Reeve had time to work on their performances and fine tune them. If you compare the Donner and Lester scenes where Clark walks into the powered down Fortress begging for Jor Els help Reeve's performance is far better in the Lester footage. Donners flying scenes look more dynamic though because he was more ambitious with the camera and the choreography. In the end Donner and Lesters styles clashes a little but strangely they also balanced each other out. When left to craft his own superman movie without Donners material to build on or guide him we got the lackluster cheesy Superman III. BUT...Lesters footage in II, trying to work with Donners, actually adds some much needed flair to Donners original SII footage. Most of Donners replacement footage (where they shot the same scenes) in II wasnt nearly as exciting or rousing as Lesters. "General...haven't you heard of freedom of the press" is just sh!t. It's like pouring a big bucket of water on a fire. So anti climactic. I also think the villians physically looked better in the Lester footage. Stamps hair looked better and the bit of gray in it made him look more distinguished. Someone put up the idea that it would have been cool if their look in the Donner footage (pale skin, sunken in eyes, more contrast) was them just out of the phantom some while their healthier more tan and robust looks in the Lester footage was an effect of them being exposed to the yellow sun of earth. It's too bad it couldn't have actually been planned that way. The best version of Superman II is somewhere between their footage. WB just needs to hire someone to find the right balance. Donner's shot of Superman on the flag pole look far and away better than Lester's take. In Lester's take you can't even tell that Superman IS standing on the flag pole at all.. it looks like he's standing on thin air. I think Donner would have had a better build up to Superman's triumphant arrival if he finished the movie and Williams had done the score. I slightly prefer the Freedom of the Press line too. It seems such a Superman thing to say. Care to step outside line works great too.. but kinda makes no sense as Clark has used that line earlier at the diner before getting beat up.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 14:27:59 GMT -5
I could always tell he was standing on a flagpole. I like both shots. Lester's front shot of him flying away is much missed for me in the Donner cut but I like the shot from behind too. As for the line of dialogue. It's no contest. Yeah they're both things superman would say but the context is off in Donners. Supermans there to stop these guys. Care to step outside is a great build up to the fight there about to blow up. Freedom of the press is like something he'd say when he's not going to take the fight to them. It's not nearly as exciting as the line in Lesters version it just sounds corny. Care to step outside also calls back to what he said to Rocky in the Diner except THIS time he's ready for the fight. That's why it's there. Superman is back!
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crown
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Post by crown on Aug 19, 2016 15:20:13 GMT -5
I could always tell he was standing on a flagpole. I like both shots. Lester's front shot of him flying away is much missed for me in the Donner cut but I like the shot from behind too. As for the line of dialogue. It's no contest. Yeah they're both things superman would say but the context is off in Donners. Supermans there to stop these guys. Care to step outside is a great build up to the fight there about to blow up. Freedom of the press is like something he'd say when he's not going to take the fight to them. It's not nearly as exciting as the line in Lesters version it just sounds corny. Care to step outside also calls back to what he said to Rocky in the Diner except THIS time he's ready for the fight. That's why it's there. Superman is back! Well at least you can see the American flag blowing in the wind under Superman in Donner's take.... the flag itself is not noticeable in Lester's shot. I also liked that in Donner's shot of Superman in the window, the blinds are out of focus as they should be. In Lester''s shot, the blinds are in focus and ruin the whole shot! Also.. why would Superman say "care to step outside?" Last time he used that line he lost a fair fight one-on-one against a guy 1/2 his size!! How does Superman think that NOW he is able to win a fair fight when it's 4 to 1??? (counting Non twice)
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Aug 19, 2016 15:27:55 GMT -5
I could always tell he was standing on a flagpole. I like both shots. Lester's front shot of him flying away is much missed for me in the Donner cut but I like the shot from behind too. As for the line of dialogue. It's no contest. Yeah they're both things superman would say but the context is off in Donners. Supermans there to stop these guys. Care to step outside is a great build up to the fight there about to blow up. Freedom of the press is like something he'd say when he's not going to take the fight to them. It's not nearly as exciting as the line in Lesters version it just sounds corny. Care to step outside also calls back to what he said to Rocky in the Diner except THIS time he's ready for the fight. That's why it's there. Superman is back! You know i went to watch "Wolf On Wall Street" 2 years back and there was a lot of hollering and laughing. I can't remember which scenes exactly......but it was definitely a raucous affair.Great Atmosphere. But 35 years ago in 1981.........that moment when Supes comes back and lands on the flag pole got an amazing response. First time for me was when I was watching STM and SII back to back during a sparsely attended mid week/latenight showing.....but it actually made the clapping even more pronounced.Will never forget it and that image of him swooping in with his back to the camera is embedded in my memory. Then I saw it in 1982 as a late night saturday performance to a packed mainly adult audience and the atmosphere was electric and the flagpole landing got a massive ovation. So it definitely functioned in terms of ratcheting up the anticipation of a big punch up....and yes Supes was back.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 15:54:06 GMT -5
I could always tell he was standing on a flagpole. I like both shots. Lester's front shot of him flying away is much missed for me in the Donner cut but I like the shot from behind too. As for the line of dialogue. It's no contest. Yeah they're both things superman would say but the context is off in Donners. Supermans there to stop these guys. Care to step outside is a great build up to the fight there about to blow up. Freedom of the press is like something he'd say when he's not going to take the fight to them. It's not nearly as exciting as the line in Lesters version it just sounds corny. Care to step outside also calls back to what he said to Rocky in the Diner except THIS time he's ready for the fight. That's why it's there. Superman is back! Well at least you can see the American flag blowing in the wind under Superman in Donner's take.... the flag itself is not noticeable in Lester's shot. I also liked that in Donner's shot of Superman in the window, the blinds are out of focus as they should be. In Lester''s shot, the blinds are in focus and ruin the whole shot! Also.. why would Superman say "care to step outside?" Last time he used that line he lost a fair fight one-on-one against a guy 1/2 his size!! How does Superman think that NOW he is able to win a fair fight when it's 4 to 1??? (counting Non twice) You see the flag when he lands so yeah you do see the flag in the Lester footage. And apparently you missed the point of the whole fight with Rocky. His whole life he'd been an indestructible man. When Rocky hit him he'd never felt pain before. Never seen his own blood before. He didn't know how to cope with that or deal with that. When he got his powers back he was more confident because that's what he'd always been before. He may have been outnumbered and he may have still lost but once again he was still invunerable so he wasn't going to be hurt easily. He didn't beat Rocky or Zod but in both cases he still tried. He'd ask him to step outside because he's courageous. Powers or no powers. I'd think that be obvious to anyone. Except this time he was more confident because back to his old familiar self.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 15:57:02 GMT -5
I could always tell he was standing on a flagpole. I like both shots. Lester's front shot of him flying away is much missed for me in the Donner cut but I like the shot from behind too. As for the line of dialogue. It's no contest. Yeah they're both things superman would say but the context is off in Donners. Supermans there to stop these guys. Care to step outside is a great build up to the fight there about to blow up. Freedom of the press is like something he'd say when he's not going to take the fight to them. It's not nearly as exciting as the line in Lesters version it just sounds corny. Care to step outside also calls back to what he said to Rocky in the Diner except THIS time he's ready for the fight. That's why it's there. Superman is back! You know i went to watch "Wolf On Wall Street" 2 years back and there was a lot of hollering and laughing. I can't remember which scenes exactly......but it was definitely a raucous affair.Great Atmosphere. But 35 years ago in 1981.........that moment when Supes comes back and lands on the flag pole got an amazing response. First time for me was when I was watching STM and SII back to back during a sparsely attended mid week/latenight showing.....but it actually made the clapping even more pronounced.Will never forget it and that image of him swooping in with his back to the camera is embedded in my memory. Then I saw it in 1982 as a late night saturday performance to a packed mainly adult audience and the atmosphere was electric and the flagpole landing got a massive ovation. So it definitely functioned in terms of ratcheting up the anticipation of a big punch up....and yes Supes was back. Exactly. I think crown is obviously taking the piss because Lesters scene is clearly more cinematic and ratchets up the anticipation. That's why it works. It's signals it's what everyone's been waiting for--the big fight.
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crown
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Post by crown on Aug 19, 2016 19:32:28 GMT -5
Well at least you can see the American flag blowing in the wind under Superman in Donner's take.... the flag itself is not noticeable in Lester's shot. I also liked that in Donner's shot of Superman in the window, the blinds are out of focus as they should be. In Lester''s shot, the blinds are in focus and ruin the whole shot! Also.. why would Superman say "care to step outside?" Last time he used that line he lost a fair fight one-on-one against a guy 1/2 his size!! How does Superman think that NOW he is able to win a fair fight when it's 4 to 1??? (counting Non twice) You see the flag when he lands so yeah you do see the flag in the Lester footage. And apparently you missed the point of the whole fight with Rocky. His whole life he'd been an indestructible man. When Rocky hit him he'd never felt pain before. Never seen his own blood before. He didn't know how to cope with that or deal with that. When he got his powers back he was more confident because that's what he'd always been before. He may have been outnumbered and he may have still lost but once again he was still invunerable so he wasn't going to be hurt easily. He didn't beat Rocky or Zod but in both cases he still tried. He'd ask him to step outside because he's courageous. Powers or no powers. I'd think that be obvious to anyone. Except this time he was more confident because back to his old familiar self. You can barely see the flag if at all while Superman is standing on the pole. Yes you see it a bit when he's ABOUT to land on it but that's it. And Superman WASN'T INVULNERABLE WHEN UP AGAINST THE VILLAINS!!! They had the same powers and they easily hurt him all the time!! Non punches Superman into the building and Superman agonizes in pain! Superman hunches over when Zod punches him in the gut!! Ursa throws a sewer lid at Superman and he groans in pain!!! I basically agree with you... but come-on... every Donner shot looked LOADS better than Lester's! And Zod looked like crap in Lester's cut. Shiny red belts gray hair and a man-bun? You like Zod with that look?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 20:55:09 GMT -5
You see the flag when he lands so yeah you do see the flag in the Lester footage. And apparently you missed the point of the whole fight with Rocky. His whole life he'd been an indestructible man. When Rocky hit him he'd never felt pain before. Never seen his own blood before. He didn't know how to cope with that or deal with that. When he got his powers back he was more confident because that's what he'd always been before. He may have been outnumbered and he may have still lost but once again he was still invunerable so he wasn't going to be hurt easily. He didn't beat Rocky or Zod but in both cases he still tried. He'd ask him to step outside because he's courageous. Powers or no powers. I'd think that be obvious to anyone. Except this time he was more confident because back to his old familiar self. You can barely see the flag if at all while Superman is standing on the pole. Yes you see it a bit when he's ABOUT to land on it but that's it. And Superman WASN'T INVULNERABLE WHEN UP AGAINST THE VILLAINS!!! They had the same powers and they easily hurt him all the time!! Non punches Superman into the building and Superman agonizes in pain! Superman hunches over when Zod punches him in the gut!! Ursa throws a sewer lid at Superman and he groans in pain!!! I basically agree with you... but come-on... every Donner shot looked LOADS better than Lester's! And Zod looked like crap in Lester's cut. Shiny red belts gray hair and a man-bun? You like Zod with that look? But you still see it...and I'll take the superior version over a trivial bit of minutes a like a pole any day. That's your grand reasoning why it's better? We get a bunch of flag shots in Superman IV so that must make it the best Superman movie ever in your eyes. Yes I liked it over the bad dye job and caked on French Royal makeup. You must have hated Jor-Els gray hair hair because he had a lot of it. And after all that stuff happened to Superman did he bleed? Did he bruise? He's invunerable. He's just being hit by other people strong enough and equally invunerable enough that he feels in. Invunerable means his skin can't be pierced or burned. All the stuff you said...doesn't mean he's still not invunerable. He burrowed into the molten crust of the earth and flew out ok. He survived a dip in acid and he was fine. He survived a shockwave from a hydrogen bomb in space. He survived a non nuclear explosion. He can survived the vaccum of space. Being invunerable doesn't mean he can't be feel pain from other unusual means.
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crown
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Post by crown on Aug 19, 2016 21:28:39 GMT -5
Metallo... are you GLAD that Donner was fired from Superman II? Also i do agree with you about the whole invulnerable thing. I was just joking about that. BUT... you have to admit that every Donner shot of Superman on the flag pole looked 100x better than Lester's shots. It's not the same in Lester's take when you barely see the US flag blowing majestically under Superman as he speaks to Zod. And I can't understand why you think this looks better than this And I CAN'T BELIEVE you like this (no flag) and it looks like he's SQUATTING LOLOLOL!!!! Over this USA USA!!!!!
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 19, 2016 22:28:50 GMT -5
Yes. F*ck that old fart. His movies suck harder than Superman kneeling before Zod.
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