|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 22, 2016 14:01:15 GMT -5
Ok.. So- I've been rewatching the 'new' RDC via Amazon and Vudu-
As a complete entity- Despite the STILL awful music re-edits that do more damage than good-
Some 'good' things that make this an improvement over the final RDC:
#1: The section where the villains come to earth is far better edited- more complete, less truuncated, and more menacing, if only through cutaways and whatnot. Oddly, removing the 'lazer beam effect' on Zod lifting the Dad does make the sequence more frightening than goofy.... then, of course, Zod's threat for no one to be able to leave and the kid being 'zapped' by the police siren by Non puts a possibly appropriate 'chill' by including a death in the mix that hangs over the rest of the Houston bits.
#2: More complete "Lex/Jor-el" conversation, even if only a couple of lines. The shots make it feel more like they really are in the same scene, whereas the size ratio differences from shot to shot really were distracting.
#3: Adding the Mank-written "Souffle" scene at least adds a bit more of the Supe/Lois interaction that we lose from the loss of the 'Supes gets flowers/talks about the crystals" scene.
It's funny how six minutes can make a difference- though even a shot or two can make a difference.
The thing is, by having that horrific moment early on with the villains landing on earth after some cheap jokes- it does remind the audience that anything goes and that it can switch to something horrific and that Lester wasn't afraid to go 'extra dark'--- BUT, it really was crossing the line for a family film. Even "The Dark Knight" didn't kill off kids.
Still- tone-wise, it did give more of the 'darkness' that was suggested by the killing of the astronauts in the beginning of the film shot by Donner- and made the goofiness of the Metro battle that goes more and more over the top at the end feel pretty bizzare as a whole.
It's not to say that Donner doesn't also throw in goofy jokes with the darkness, but in looking at clips from other movies he did at the same time frame: "Ladyhawke" and "Lethal Weapon 1 and 2"--- There really is/was a special 'rhythym' or formula that Donner had in delivering humor, heart, and action.
Especially when you see STM and Lethal Weapon 2--- one really (if they haven't already) goes back and is reminded: yeah, STM was a success because of Donner, he did deserve to have it be called "a Richard Donner film".
I hate to admit it, but Lester - at his best- (Three Musketeers) - had a tone that may have seemed like it was a good match on the surface to complete SII.... and it would have been interesting to see if he tried to KEEP the Mank script- (and/or if Ilya Salkind reigned him in when he went over the top)- but I think the 'souffle' scene is a good example- not horribly shot, but in a mediocre way with not much energy.
Lester could have pulled off the darkness, and he did with the bits here- but it's on the uglier side. Even when Donner's Lethal Weapon series goes 'dark', he's still able to bring back in the lightness in a smooth fashion (at least the first two). As always, comparing the different versions of SII under different directors allows is an interesting exercise into all the little things that make a movie soar, sink, or... just 'sit' there.
Lester definitely seemed passionate about the big gags in SII.
Donner was passionate about the lead character and the love story.
Furie was also passionate about them, I think, but whether it was the budget or whatnot, couldn't make it work. Donner made the mold to follow in the first place, not that disimilar to his other adventure films of the time.
|
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 16,843
|
Post by Metallo on Dec 23, 2016 8:12:50 GMT -5
Well first I'd like to say this...I really hated the way the hologram effects in the FOS looked in the RDC. I didn't think they looked so great in the new scene in the extended version of STM either but it looked better than what the RDC gave us. The Jor-El hologram worked perfectly in the theatrical STM. I WISH they couldn't fix that someday. Anyway
Donner's sense of drama and character were just flat out superior. He was better at that stuff than Lester and knew it all had to spring from there. I think you're right in saying Donner knew how to create the right ratio and balance of drama and comedy. When to do something and where to put it. Donner was also more creative and ambitious in how he shot things. He really pushed the boundaries of what a Superman movie could be visually.
He's not a visualist per se and certainly not an auteur like a Tim Burton but he gets the basics of pacing and drama and knew what the film needed. It was sold on the flying and he more than Lester was really creative with the flying.
Look at the shots in his first night out with the barrel roll and turning camera at the same time. The flying sequence with Lois. The aerial loop after the dam bursts and he's saving the town. The rocket chase. Donner's shots were far more dynamic.
Lester didn't have the time money or creativity to do that. It showed me Donner was the superior action director of the two. Donner probably has the most diverse filmography of any Superman director. He's done comedy, drama, action, family adventure, thrillers, horror, fantasy, etc.
He's flexible enough to jump on board any movie and do the job. Snyder can't say that. Lester can't say that. Singer can't say that. Could Singer had directed Scrooged or Goonies as well? Could Snyder have done Inside Moves? could Lester have done The Omen?
I do think Donner could have jumped on and shot X-Men, Dawn of The Dead, or The Musketeer movies. I guess that's partly what a journeyman director does.
Lester could make more serious films. Robin and Marion is a serious dramatic film when it needs to be. Much like STM the core of that movie was the romance. Problem is with Superman he didn't take the material as seriously and coupled with the Salkinds vision of Superman we got something more comedic from him.
The Lester films may have perfected the Fx techniques (zoptics, screen projection, rotoscoping, etc) but they weren't as creative or ambitious with those techniques. Lester's flying scenes were more static with less exciting camera angles and movement.
Tonally Furies Superman is closer to Donner's than Lester's and that was appreciated but unfortunately he was working for two hucksters who tried to cheapskate their way into the big time. On the page Superman IV is the most ambitious Superman film ever. Even now. For that I want to give Cannon credit and call them fools at the same time. He's doing pure comic book stuff on a story scale the previous movies never go close to.
Problem was it was on a fraction of the budget needed to pull it all off which was stupid. Superman using his heat vision to sheer off the top of a mountain to plug a volcano? Superman saving a space station? fighting around the world from the Great Wall of china to red square to the USA? A battle on the moon? Snyders not doing that stuff now. If he did a movie like that it would cost WB over 300 million dollars.
Furie never had the creative voice or the success these other guys did but he was arguably more competent at mixing drama and comedy and directing actors than some of them. It's a shame he didn't get the proper budget or support to play with. Even with that he never would have turned in something as good as Donner did but could he have done something decent? I think so
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 24, 2016 5:03:59 GMT -5
Well first I'd like to say this...I really hated the way the hologram effects in the FOS looked in the RDC. I didn't think they looked so great in the new scene in the extended version of STM either but it looked better than what the RDC gave us. The Jor-El hologram worked perfectly in the theatrical STM. I WISH they couldn't fix that someday. Anyway Donner's sense of drama and character were just flat out superior. He was better at that stuff than Lester and knew it all had to spring from there. I think you're right in saying Donner knew how to create the right ratio and balance of drama and comedy. When to do something and where to put it. Donner was also more creative and ambitious in how he shot things. He really pushed the boundaries of what a Superman movie could be visually. He's not a visualist per se and certainly not an auteur like a Tim Burton but he gets the basics of pacing and drama and knew what the film needed. It was sold on the flying and he more than Lester was really creative with the flying. Look at the shots in his first night out with the barrel roll and turning camera at the same time. The flying sequence with Lois. The aerial loop after the dam bursts and he's saving the town. The rocket chase. Donner's shots were far more dynamic. Lester didn't have the time money or creativity to do that. It showed me Donner was the superior action director of the two. Donner probably has the most diverse filmography of any Superman director. He's done comedy, drama, action, family adventure, thrillers, horror, fantasy, etc. He's flexible enough to jump on board any movie and do the job. Snyder can't say that. Lester can't say that. Singer can't say that. Could Singer had directed Scrooged or Goonies as well? Could Snyder have done Inside Moves? could Lester have done The Omen? I do think Donner could have jumped on and shot X-Men, Dawn of The Dead, or The Musketeer movies. I guess that's partly what a journeyman director does. Lester could make more serious films. Robin and Marion is a serious dramatic film when it needs to be. Much like STM the core of that movie was the romance. Problem is with Superman he didn't take the material as seriously and coupled with the Salkinds vision of Superman we got something more comedic from him. The Lester films may have perfected the Fx techniques (zoptics, screen projection, rotoscoping, etc) but they weren't as creative or ambitious with those techniques. Lester's flying scenes were more static with less exciting camera angles and movement. Tonally Furies Superman is closer to Donner's than Lester's and that was appreciated but unfortunately he was working for two hucksters who tried to cheapskate their way into the big time. On the page Superman IV is the most ambitious Superman film ever. Even now. For that I want to give Cannon credit and call them fools at the same time. He's doing pure comic book stuff on a story scale the previous movies never go close to. Problem was it was on a fraction of the budget needed to pull it all off which was stupid. Superman using his heat vision to sheer off the top of a mountain to plug a volcano? Superman saving a space station? fighting around the world from the Great Wall of china to red square to the USA? A battle on the moon? Snyders not doing that stuff now. If he did a movie like that it would cost WB over 300 million dollars. Furie never had the creative voice or the success these other guys did but he was arguably more competent at mixing drama and comedy and directing actors than some of them. It's a shame he didn't get the proper budget or support to play with. Even with that he never would have turned in something as good as Donner did but could he have done something decent? I think so I was never crazy about the STM 2006 extended scene Brando look nor the RDC look--- BUT at least with the extended bit, it looks like they're in the same frame this time! (Why did Thau cut it out? Silly.) I totally agree, Donner is a superior director with more ambitious filmmaking. Like Speilberg, Donner shot a ton of tv prior to, so it's great that he saw films as a way to expand rather than limit his storytelling style. (Unlike Joss Whedon, sadly, who did some cool things in "Ultron" via second unit, but he mentioned how he was going to go BACK to just 'minimal shooting' to only shoot what he needed, rather than having multiple options.) Tonewise, the 'new' edit by Thau makes it seem like there's a better structure and purpose in place.... sortof. In any case, curious how fan editors will use this new footage.... if at all...
|
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,767
|
Post by atp on Dec 24, 2016 5:53:01 GMT -5
Just remember, however, that Donner gave us:
1) Otis 2) Lex looking like a pimp 3) Turning back the world
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 24, 2016 14:03:06 GMT -5
Just remember, however, that Donner gave us: 1) Otis 2) Lex looking like a pimp 3) Turning back the world I hated those.... BUT... In looking at what was SUPPOSED to happen in part II- Lex as comedic schtick was a great balance to how dark the Phantom Zone Criminals were originally intended to be. While silly and ridiculous, in hindsight, having Lex and Otis be campy made some of the needed exposition scenes a bit easier to sit through in rewatching STM. Also- Donner and Baird as a team was pretty amazing overall not just for Supes.
|
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 16,843
|
Post by Metallo on Dec 24, 2016 20:48:41 GMT -5
Just remember, however, that Donner gave us: 1) Otis 2) Lex looking like a pimp 3) Turning back the world 1) I liked Otis. Provided some comic relief. 2) Lex Luthor's often had an awful fashion sense. 3) dramatically wonderful, logically ridiculous, but still better than...
|
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 823
|
Post by dejan on Dec 25, 2016 9:18:31 GMT -5
Ok.. So- I've been rewatching the 'new' RDC via Amazon and Vudu- As a complete entity- Despite the STILL awful music re-edits that do more damage than good- Some 'good' things that make this an improvement over the final RDC: #1: The section where the villains come to earth is far better edited- more complete, less truuncated, and more menacing, if only through cutaways and whatnot. Oddly, removing the 'lazer beam effect' on Zod lifting the Dad does make the sequence more frightening than goofy.... then, of course, Zod's threat for no one to be able to leave and the kid being 'zapped' by the police siren by Non puts a possibly appropriate 'chill' by including a death in the mix that hangs over the rest of the Houston bits. #2: More complete "Lex/Jor-el" conversation, even if only a couple of lines. The shots make it feel more like they really are in the same scene, whereas the size ratio differences from shot to shot really were distracting. #3: Adding the Mank-written "Souffle" scene at least adds a bit more of the Supe/Lois interaction that we lose from the loss of the 'Supes gets flowers/talks about the crystals" scene. It's funny how six minutes can make a difference- though even a shot or two can make a difference. The thing is, by having that horrific moment early on with the villains landing on earth after some cheap jokes- it does remind the audience that anything goes and that it can switch to something horrific and that Lester wasn't afraid to go 'extra dark'--- BUT, it really was crossing the line for a family film. Even "The Dark Knight" didn't kill off kids. Still- tone-wise, it did give more of the 'darkness' that was suggested by the killing of the astronauts in the beginning of the film shot by Donner- and made the goofiness of the Metro battle that goes more and more over the top at the end feel pretty bizzare as a whole. It's not to say that Donner doesn't also throw in goofy jokes with the darkness, but in looking at clips from other movies he did at the same time frame: "Ladyhawke" and "Lethal Weapon 1 and 2"--- There really is/was a special 'rhythym' or formula that Donner had in delivering humor, heart, and action. Especially when you see STM and Lethal Weapon 2--- one really (if they haven't already) goes back and is reminded: yeah, STM was a success because of Donner, he did deserve to have it be called "a Richard Donner film". I hate to admit it, but Lester - at his best- (Three Musketeers) - had a tone that may have seemed like it was a good match on the surface to complete SII.... and it would have been interesting to see if he tried to KEEP the Mank script- (and/or if Ilya Salkind reigned him in when he went over the top)- but I think the 'souffle' scene is a good example- not horribly shot, but in a mediocre way with not much energy. Lester could have pulled off the darkness, and he did with the bits here- but it's on the uglier side. Even when Donner's Lethal Weapon series goes 'dark', he's still able to bring back in the lightness in a smooth fashion (at least the first two). As always, comparing the different versions of SII under different directors allows is an interesting exercise into all the little things that make a movie soar, sink, or... just 'sit' there. Lester definitely seemed passionate about the big gags in SII. Donner was passionate about the lead character and the love story. Furie was also passionate about them, I think, but whether it was the budget or whatnot, couldn't make it work. Donner made the mold to follow in the first place, not that disimilar to his other adventure films of the time. Time to spring to the defense of Lester I just bagged a film called "Cuba" on Blu ray. Watched it on my 110inch home theater screen (4K Projection). It is directed by Lester and was released in late 1979 to generally poor reviews and mediocre box office returns. However(having never seen the film before) I was actually pleasantly surprised. It is a serious drama with political and social commentary on a poignant moment in world history. It probably has even more resonance now that Castro has passed away. Couple of things come to the fore. Lester was not afraid to expose American and British political hypocrisy and it's willingness to stimulate international intrigue. This is definitely an anti-war and anti western imperialism flick.There are not too many of those around. That same attitude of "up yours to the establishment" pervaded Lester's Superman flicks too. Ross Webster's line: "this piss ant little country(Columbia) thinks that it has the gall to to dictate the economy of an open market" For my money that is the best line in SIII and so beautifully ironic given the fact that it is Webster(a product of market capitalism )who wants to do the dictating. Interesting that it should be Supe's saving Columbia from the machinations of a power hungry American capitalist. Kids in 1983 never got it(I was one of them) and flag waving Americans probably hated it(as US trained paramilitaries were wading through Guatamala, Honduras and El-Salvador). From a technical viewpoint Cuba is beautifully realized with some great cinematography. Flick was shot in Spain(doubling for Cuba) and the production is top notch. There are a tonne of extras in nearly every shot giving a sense of scale showing that Lester could handle big crowds. There is some awkward post production audio dubbing which takes the edge of some of the dialogue deliveries. But the thing in Cuba that takes my eye is John Victor Smith's rapid fire editing. It is dynamic and fluctuates between slow and fast depending on the needs of the scene in question. Which ties in nicely with the Supes flicks. It is amazing to think that Thau had 25 years of technological advantages using exactly the same 35mm celluloid that Victor Smith had handled in 1980.....and yet Victor Smith's work is vastly superior. SIV also suffers from lackadaisical editing too. Victor Smith knew that Timmy getting killed by Non's red siren and the Souffle scene were not up to scratch and rightly excised them from the theatrical cut. Just like Baird took out some of Donner's excess fluff from STM. The mark of a good editor is knowing what to keep in and take out. I have not seen the new extended RDC but you can only polish a turd so much. Had Donner been allowed to finish SII in 1979 I am sure he would have re-shot huge swathes of his own material. But Donner would have been restricted by the absence of Brando,Undsworth,Barry and Bowie..... all key players in creating the magic of STM. So how a Donner 1980 SII would have turned out is anyone's guess.
|
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 16,843
|
Post by Metallo on Dec 25, 2016 10:50:57 GMT -5
Ok.. So- I've been rewatching the 'new' RDC via Amazon and Vudu- As a complete entity- Despite the STILL awful music re-edits that do more damage than good- Some 'good' things that make this an improvement over the final RDC: #1: The section where the villains come to earth is far better edited- more complete, less truuncated, and more menacing, if only through cutaways and whatnot. Oddly, removing the 'lazer beam effect' on Zod lifting the Dad does make the sequence more frightening than goofy.... then, of course, Zod's threat for no one to be able to leave and the kid being 'zapped' by the police siren by Non puts a possibly appropriate 'chill' by including a death in the mix that hangs over the rest of the Houston bits. #2: More complete "Lex/Jor-el" conversation, even if only a couple of lines. The shots make it feel more like they really are in the same scene, whereas the size ratio differences from shot to shot really were distracting. #3: Adding the Mank-written "Souffle" scene at least adds a bit more of the Supe/Lois interaction that we lose from the loss of the 'Supes gets flowers/talks about the crystals" scene. It's funny how six minutes can make a difference- though even a shot or two can make a difference. The thing is, by having that horrific moment early on with the villains landing on earth after some cheap jokes- it does remind the audience that anything goes and that it can switch to something horrific and that Lester wasn't afraid to go 'extra dark'--- BUT, it really was crossing the line for a family film. Even "The Dark Knight" didn't kill off kids. Still- tone-wise, it did give more of the 'darkness' that was suggested by the killing of the astronauts in the beginning of the film shot by Donner- and made the goofiness of the Metro battle that goes more and more over the top at the end feel pretty bizzare as a whole. It's not to say that Donner doesn't also throw in goofy jokes with the darkness, but in looking at clips from other movies he did at the same time frame: "Ladyhawke" and "Lethal Weapon 1 and 2"--- There really is/was a special 'rhythym' or formula that Donner had in delivering humor, heart, and action. Especially when you see STM and Lethal Weapon 2--- one really (if they haven't already) goes back and is reminded: yeah, STM was a success because of Donner, he did deserve to have it be called "a Richard Donner film". I hate to admit it, but Lester - at his best- (Three Musketeers) - had a tone that may have seemed like it was a good match on the surface to complete SII.... and it would have been interesting to see if he tried to KEEP the Mank script- (and/or if Ilya Salkind reigned him in when he went over the top)- but I think the 'souffle' scene is a good example- not horribly shot, but in a mediocre way with not much energy. Lester could have pulled off the darkness, and he did with the bits here- but it's on the uglier side. Even when Donner's Lethal Weapon series goes 'dark', he's still able to bring back in the lightness in a smooth fashion (at least the first two). As always, comparing the different versions of SII under different directors allows is an interesting exercise into all the little things that make a movie soar, sink, or... just 'sit' there. Lester definitely seemed passionate about the big gags in SII. Donner was passionate about the lead character and the love story. Furie was also passionate about them, I think, but whether it was the budget or whatnot, couldn't make it work. Donner made the mold to follow in the first place, not that disimilar to his other adventure films of the time. Time to spring to the defense of Lester I just bagged a film called "Cuba" on Blu ray. Watched it on my 110inch home theater screen (4K Projection). It is directed by Lester and was released in late 1979 to generally poor reviews and mediocre box office returns. However(having never seen the film before) I was actually pleasantly surprised. It is a serious drama with political and social commentary on a poignant moment in world history. It probably has even more resonance now that Castro has passed away. Couple of things come to the fore. Lester was not afraid to expose American and British political hypocrisy and it's willingness to stimulate international intrigue. This is definitely an anti-war and anti western imperialism flick.There are not too many of those around. That same attitude of "up yours to the establishment" pervaded Lester's Superman flicks too. Ross Webster's line: "this piss ant little country(Columbia) thinks that it has the gall to to dictate the economy of an open market" For my money that is the best line in SIII and so beautifully ironic given the fact that it is Webster(a product of market capitalism )who wants to do the dictating. Interesting that it should be Supe's saving Columbia from the machinations of a power hungry American capitalist. Kids in 1983 never got it(I was one of them) and flag waving Americans probably hated it(as US trained paramilitaries were wading through Guatamala, Honduras and El-Salvador). From a technical viewpoint Cuba is beautifully realized with some great cinematography. Flick was shot in Spain(doubling for Cuba) and the production is top notch. There are a tonne of extras in nearly every shot giving a sense of scale showing that Lester could handle big crowds. There is some awkward post production audio dubbing which takes the edge of some of the dialogue deliveries. But the thing in Cuba that takes my eye is John Victor Smith's rapid fire editing. It is dynamic and fluctuates between slow and fast depending on the needs of the scene in question. Which ties in nicely with the Supes flicks. It is amazing to think that Thau had 25 years of technological advantages using exactly the same 35mm celluloid that Victor Smith had handled in 1980.....and yet Victor Smith's work is vastly superior. SIV also suffers from lackadaisical editing too. Victor Smith knew that Timmy getting killed by Non's red siren and the Souffle scene were not up to scratch and rightly excised them from the theatrical cut. Just like Baird took out some of Donner's excess fluff from STM. The mark of a good editor is knowing what to keep in and take out. I have not seen the new extended RDC but you can only polish a turd so much. Had Donner been allowed to finish SII in 1979 I am sure he would have re-shot huge swathes of his own material. But Donner would have been restricted by the absence of Brando,Undsworth,Barry and Bowie..... all key players in creating the magic of STM. So how a Donner 1980 SII would have turned out is anyone's guess. Cuba...is that the movie with Sean Connery? I've got the DVD but I've never watched it. Now the Castros kicked it it might be the best time. You make a good point about things being cut not because they don't fit but because they aren't quality enough or are unnecessary. I had that feeling a lot watching Suicide Squad. A lot of the stuff in STM and II was rightly cut
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 25, 2016 20:26:55 GMT -5
Ok.. So- I've been rewatching the 'new' RDC via Amazon and Vudu- As a complete entity- Despite the STILL awful music re-edits that do more damage than good- Some 'good' things that make this an improvement over the final RDC: #1: The section where the villains come to earth is far better edited- more complete, less truuncated, and more menacing, if only through cutaways and whatnot. Oddly, removing the 'lazer beam effect' on Zod lifting the Dad does make the sequence more frightening than goofy.... then, of course, Zod's threat for no one to be able to leave and the kid being 'zapped' by the police siren by Non puts a possibly appropriate 'chill' by including a death in the mix that hangs over the rest of the Houston bits. #2: More complete "Lex/Jor-el" conversation, even if only a couple of lines. The shots make it feel more like they really are in the same scene, whereas the size ratio differences from shot to shot really were distracting. #3: Adding the Mank-written "Souffle" scene at least adds a bit more of the Supe/Lois interaction that we lose from the loss of the 'Supes gets flowers/talks about the crystals" scene. It's funny how six minutes can make a difference- though even a shot or two can make a difference. The thing is, by having that horrific moment early on with the villains landing on earth after some cheap jokes- it does remind the audience that anything goes and that it can switch to something horrific and that Lester wasn't afraid to go 'extra dark'--- BUT, it really was crossing the line for a family film. Even "The Dark Knight" didn't kill off kids. Still- tone-wise, it did give more of the 'darkness' that was suggested by the killing of the astronauts in the beginning of the film shot by Donner- and made the goofiness of the Metro battle that goes more and more over the top at the end feel pretty bizzare as a whole. It's not to say that Donner doesn't also throw in goofy jokes with the darkness, but in looking at clips from other movies he did at the same time frame: "Ladyhawke" and "Lethal Weapon 1 and 2"--- There really is/was a special 'rhythym' or formula that Donner had in delivering humor, heart, and action. Especially when you see STM and Lethal Weapon 2--- one really (if they haven't already) goes back and is reminded: yeah, STM was a success because of Donner, he did deserve to have it be called "a Richard Donner film". I hate to admit it, but Lester - at his best- (Three Musketeers) - had a tone that may have seemed like it was a good match on the surface to complete SII.... and it would have been interesting to see if he tried to KEEP the Mank script- (and/or if Ilya Salkind reigned him in when he went over the top)- but I think the 'souffle' scene is a good example- not horribly shot, but in a mediocre way with not much energy. Lester could have pulled off the darkness, and he did with the bits here- but it's on the uglier side. Even when Donner's Lethal Weapon series goes 'dark', he's still able to bring back in the lightness in a smooth fashion (at least the first two). As always, comparing the different versions of SII under different directors allows is an interesting exercise into all the little things that make a movie soar, sink, or... just 'sit' there. Lester definitely seemed passionate about the big gags in SII. Donner was passionate about the lead character and the love story. Furie was also passionate about them, I think, but whether it was the budget or whatnot, couldn't make it work. Donner made the mold to follow in the first place, not that disimilar to his other adventure films of the time. Time to spring to the defense of Lester I just bagged a film called "Cuba" on Blu ray. Watched it on my 110inch home theater screen (4K Projection). It is directed by Lester and was released in late 1979 to generally poor reviews and mediocre box office returns. However(having never seen the film before) I was actually pleasantly surprised. It is a serious drama with political and social commentary on a poignant moment in world history. It probably has even more resonance now that Castro has passed away. Couple of things come to the fore. Lester was not afraid to expose American and British political hypocrisy and it's willingness to stimulate international intrigue. This is definitely an anti-war and anti western imperialism flick.There are not too many of those around. That same attitude of "up yours to the establishment" pervaded Lester's Superman flicks too. Ross Webster's line: "this piss ant little country(Columbia) thinks that it has the gall to to dictate the economy of an open market" For my money that is the best line in SIII and so beautifully ironic given the fact that it is Webster(a product of market capitalism )who wants to do the dictating. Interesting that it should be Supe's saving Columbia from the machinations of a power hungry American capitalist. Kids in 1983 never got it(I was one of them) and flag waving Americans probably hated it(as US trained paramilitaries were wading through Guatamala, Honduras and El-Salvador). From a technical viewpoint Cuba is beautifully realized with some great cinematography. Flick was shot in Spain(doubling for Cuba) and the production is top notch. There are a tonne of extras in nearly every shot giving a sense of scale showing that Lester could handle big crowds. There is some awkward post production audio dubbing which takes the edge of some of the dialogue deliveries. But the thing in Cuba that takes my eye is John Victor Smith's rapid fire editing. It is dynamic and fluctuates between slow and fast depending on the needs of the scene in question. Which ties in nicely with the Supes flicks. It is amazing to think that Thau had 25 years of technological advantages using exactly the same 35mm celluloid that Victor Smith had handled in 1980.....and yet Victor Smith's work is vastly superior. SIV also suffers from lackadaisical editing too. Victor Smith knew that Timmy getting killed by Non's red siren and the Souffle scene were not up to scratch and rightly excised them from the theatrical cut. Just like Baird took out some of Donner's excess fluff from STM. The mark of a good editor is knowing what to keep in and take out. I have not seen the new extended RDC but you can only polish a turd so much. Had Donner been allowed to finish SII in 1979 I am sure he would have re-shot huge swathes of his own material. But Donner would have been restricted by the absence of Brando,Undsworth,Barry and Bowie..... all key players in creating the magic of STM. So how a Donner 1980 SII would have turned out is anyone's guess. During that time frame, Donner did "inside Moves", "Ladyhawke", and I think was starting "Lethal Weapon"- all of which I thought had just as high a standard in quality as STM without Unsworth, Barry, and Bowie- so I feel pretty safe it would have been vastly superior to what Lester put out.... But.... I give top marks to Lester for "Three Musketeers"- though, oddly, less for the sequel shot at the same time. (Editing and music choices hurt that one a lot) In regards to the editing, it really is a bit sad that we didn't get a chance to know what changes (if any) Victor-Smith did to SII. Supposedly Victor-smith didn't touch the Stuart Baird sequences (with the exception of the ending parts)- but for the moment the best 'true' Donner-Baird version of SII is existant within the Extended IRC cut, and I think the best fan cuts incorporate mostly all existing Donner with limited Lester. Also- with Victor Smith: Did he or the Salkinds cut the bit with the kid getting killed? It would have been nice to have had Victor Smith's commentary if we weren't going to have Richard Lester's..... and I still hope we get SOME interview or words from Lester on his side of the whole SII story, or why he refuses it to this day.
|
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 16,843
|
Post by Metallo on Jan 9, 2017 14:53:46 GMT -5
Ok.. So- I've been rewatching the 'new' RDC via Amazon and Vudu- As a complete entity- Despite the STILL awful music re-edits that do more damage than good- Some 'good' things that make this an improvement over the final RDC: #1: The section where the villains come to earth is far better edited- more complete, less truuncated, and more menacing, if only through cutaways and whatnot. Oddly, removing the 'lazer beam effect' on Zod lifting the Dad does make the sequence more frightening than goofy.... then, of course, Zod's threat for no one to be able to leave and the kid being 'zapped' by the police siren by Non puts a possibly appropriate 'chill' by including a death in the mix that hangs over the rest of the Houston bits. #2: More complete "Lex/Jor-el" conversation, even if only a couple of lines. The shots make it feel more like they really are in the same scene, whereas the size ratio differences from shot to shot really were distracting. #3: Adding the Mank-written "Souffle" scene at least adds a bit more of the Supe/Lois interaction that we lose from the loss of the 'Supes gets flowers/talks about the crystals" scene. It's funny how six minutes can make a difference- though even a shot or two can make a difference. The thing is, by having that horrific moment early on with the villains landing on earth after some cheap jokes- it does remind the audience that anything goes and that it can switch to something horrific and that Lester wasn't afraid to go 'extra dark'--- BUT, it really was crossing the line for a family film. Even "The Dark Knight" didn't kill off kids. Still- tone-wise, it did give more of the 'darkness' that was suggested by the killing of the astronauts in the beginning of the film shot by Donner- and made the goofiness of the Metro battle that goes more and more over the top at the end feel pretty bizzare as a whole. It's not to say that Donner doesn't also throw in goofy jokes with the darkness, but in looking at clips from other movies he did at the same time frame: "Ladyhawke" and "Lethal Weapon 1 and 2"--- There really is/was a special 'rhythym' or formula that Donner had in delivering humor, heart, and action. Especially when you see STM and Lethal Weapon 2--- one really (if they haven't already) goes back and is reminded: yeah, STM was a success because of Donner, he did deserve to have it be called "a Richard Donner film". I hate to admit it, but Lester - at his best- (Three Musketeers) - had a tone that may have seemed like it was a good match on the surface to complete SII.... and it would have been interesting to see if he tried to KEEP the Mank script- (and/or if Ilya Salkind reigned him in when he went over the top)- but I think the 'souffle' scene is a good example- not horribly shot, but in a mediocre way with not much energy. Lester could have pulled off the darkness, and he did with the bits here- but it's on the uglier side. Even when Donner's Lethal Weapon series goes 'dark', he's still able to bring back in the lightness in a smooth fashion (at least the first two). As always, comparing the different versions of SII under different directors allows is an interesting exercise into all the little things that make a movie soar, sink, or... just 'sit' there. Lester definitely seemed passionate about the big gags in SII. Donner was passionate about the lead character and the love story. Furie was also passionate about them, I think, but whether it was the budget or whatnot, couldn't make it work. Donner made the mold to follow in the first place, not that disimilar to his other adventure films of the time. Time to spring to the defense of Lester I just bagged a film called "Cuba" on Blu ray. Watched it on my 110inch home theater screen (4K Projection). It is directed by Lester and was released in late 1979 to generally poor reviews and mediocre box office returns. However(having never seen the film before) I was actually pleasantly surprised. It is a serious drama with political and social commentary on a poignant moment in world history. It probably has even more resonance now that Castro has passed away. Couple of things come to the fore. Lester was not afraid to expose American and British political hypocrisy and it's willingness to stimulate international intrigue. This is definitely an anti-war and anti western imperialism flick.There are not too many of those around. That same attitude of "up yours to the establishment" pervaded Lester's Superman flicks too. Ross Webster's line: "this piss ant little country(Columbia) thinks that it has the gall to to dictate the economy of an open market" For my money that is the best line in SIII and so beautifully ironic given the fact that it is Webster(a product of market capitalism )who wants to do the dictating. Interesting that it should be Supe's saving Columbia from the machinations of a power hungry American capitalist. Kids in 1983 never got it(I was one of them) and flag waving Americans probably hated it(as US trained paramilitaries were wading through Guatamala, Honduras and El-Salvador). From a technical viewpoint Cuba is beautifully realized with some great cinematography. Flick was shot in Spain(doubling for Cuba) and the production is top notch. There are a tonne of extras in nearly every shot giving a sense of scale showing that Lester could handle big crowds. There is some awkward post production audio dubbing which takes the edge of some of the dialogue deliveries. But the thing in Cuba that takes my eye is John Victor Smith's rapid fire editing. It is dynamic and fluctuates between slow and fast depending on the needs of the scene in question. Which ties in nicely with the Supes flicks. It is amazing to think that Thau had 25 years of technological advantages using exactly the same 35mm celluloid that Victor Smith had handled in 1980.....and yet Victor Smith's work is vastly superior. SIV also suffers from lackadaisical editing too. Victor Smith knew that Timmy getting killed by Non's red siren and the Souffle scene were not up to scratch and rightly excised them from the theatrical cut. Just like Baird took out some of Donner's excess fluff from STM. The mark of a good editor is knowing what to keep in and take out. I have not seen the new extended RDC but you can only polish a turd so much. Had Donner been allowed to finish SII in 1979 I am sure he would have re-shot huge swathes of his own material. But Donner would have been restricted by the absence of Brando,Undsworth,Barry and Bowie..... all key players in creating the magic of STM. So how a Donner 1980 SII would have turned out is anyone's guess. Someone once described Lester as an American expatriate so it's not surprising he'd be more openinly critical of America. He did live in England didn't he? He even seemed to have a bit of a British accent. We Americans don't always take outside criticism very well but sometimes it provides great insight. I think the outsider perspective is what makes so many 2000 a.d. comics so good and Robocop so good. They are outsiders observations and critiques of American culture done as satire. Robert Vaughn had some great lines as Ross Webster. "I asked you to kill Superman...and you couldn't even do that one simple thing." "Vera get ahold of yourself (nobody else ever will)." "Old friend you are yesterday. Whoever did this is tomorrow" Byrne gets credit for the post crisis Lex Luthor and he gives some credit to Marv Wolfman but Ross Webster was clearly a proto version of evil businessman Lex the same way Duela Dent, Prank from The Flash, and Alicia from Batman 89 were proto versions of Harley Quinn.
|
|
crown
New Member
Posts: 1,134
|
Post by crown on Jan 10, 2017 4:08:43 GMT -5
Oh wow I seriously just got the joke about Vera "getting a hold of herself" LOL
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 11, 2017 22:46:22 GMT -5
With Victor Smith: He did do a great job editing Three Musketeers, but I found his decisions on Four Musketeers to be a bit of a drag at times.
Also- why didn't Smith challenge Lester to cut out the sight gags during the Metro battle that have nothing to do with the plot nor character?
(To be fair, he might have, but, still....)
|
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 823
|
Post by dejan on Feb 5, 2017 16:28:37 GMT -5
Oh wow I seriously just got the joke about Vera "getting a hold of herself" LOL What about Gus's intro/interaction with Webster: "There are rapists who rape robbers!!!" Won't get a line like that in either the Marvel or DC cineamtic franchises going on at the moment. I am surprised Victor Smith and Lester allowed that line to stay in the final cut.....definitely not a kid friendly film dialogue.
|
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 823
|
Post by dejan on Feb 5, 2017 16:36:28 GMT -5
Time to spring to the defense of Lester I just bagged a film called "Cuba" on Blu ray. Watched it on my 110inch home theater screen (4K Projection). It is directed by Lester and was released in late 1979 to generally poor reviews and mediocre box office returns. However(having never seen the film before) I was actually pleasantly surprised. It is a serious drama with political and social commentary on a poignant moment in world history. It probably has even more resonance now that Castro has passed away. Couple of things come to the fore. Lester was not afraid to expose American and British political hypocrisy and it's willingness to stimulate international intrigue. This is definitely an anti-war and anti western imperialism flick.There are not too many of those around. That same attitude of "up yours to the establishment" pervaded Lester's Superman flicks too. Ross Webster's line: "this piss ant little country(Columbia) thinks that it has the gall to to dictate the economy of an open market" For my money that is the best line in SIII and so beautifully ironic given the fact that it is Webster(a product of market capitalism )who wants to do the dictating. Interesting that it should be Supe's saving Columbia from the machinations of a power hungry American capitalist. Kids in 1983 never got it(I was one of them) and flag waving Americans probably hated it(as US trained paramilitaries were wading through Guatamala, Honduras and El-Salvador). From a technical viewpoint Cuba is beautifully realized with some great cinematography. Flick was shot in Spain(doubling for Cuba) and the production is top notch. There are a tonne of extras in nearly every shot giving a sense of scale showing that Lester could handle big crowds. There is some awkward post production audio dubbing which takes the edge of some of the dialogue deliveries. But the thing in Cuba that takes my eye is John Victor Smith's rapid fire editing. It is dynamic and fluctuates between slow and fast depending on the needs of the scene in question. Which ties in nicely with the Supes flicks. It is amazing to think that Thau had 25 years of technological advantages using exactly the same 35mm celluloid that Victor Smith had handled in 1980.....and yet Victor Smith's work is vastly superior. SIV also suffers from lackadaisical editing too. Victor Smith knew that Timmy getting killed by Non's red siren and the Souffle scene were not up to scratch and rightly excised them from the theatrical cut. Just like Baird took out some of Donner's excess fluff from STM. The mark of a good editor is knowing what to keep in and take out. I have not seen the new extended RDC but you can only polish a turd so much. Had Donner been allowed to finish SII in 1979 I am sure he would have re-shot huge swathes of his own material. But Donner would have been restricted by the absence of Brando,Undsworth,Barry and Bowie..... all key players in creating the magic of STM. So how a Donner 1980 SII would have turned out is anyone's guess. Cuba...is that the movie with Sean Connery? I've got the DVD but I've never watched it. Now the Castros kicked it it might be the best time. You make a good point about things being cut not because they don't fit but because they aren't quality enough or are unnecessary. I had that feeling a lot watching Suicide Squad. A lot of the stuff in STM and II was rightly cut Sorry I never responded to this Metallo. Cuba is definitely worth a watch. there is some of the Lester slapstick( an ice cream vendor gets squirted in the face by his own ice cream mixer). BUT More importantly ....there is whole load of very violent scenes. People getting shot in the head, eyes ect ect. Lester definitely had a darker side to his film making talents....some of that surfaces in the Clark vs Supes junkyard fight......which for 1983, was pretty bruising.
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2017 19:55:53 GMT -5
Oh wow I seriously just got the joke about Vera "getting a hold of herself" LOL What about Gus's intro/interaction with Webster: "There are rapists who rape robbers!!!" Won't get a line like that in either the Marvel or DC cineamtic franchises going on at the moment. I am surprised Victor Smith and Lester allowed that line to stay in the final cut.....definitely not a kid friendly film dialogue. The audience Superman III went for is either highly confusing (the creepiness factor of Supes-dark hitting on Lana and the end bit with the cyborg taking over is definitely not for the kids, nor really all that pleasant for the adults to view either). I am skeptical when/if a director goes in to make a movie, that he/she would try to make it bad intentionally....so I was willing to give Lester a bit of benefit of a doubt (despite his missteps on SII) but the mix of different tones that Donner did with Superman 1 & 2 looked to be far more successful than Lester doing the same. The darkness of (For example) the kid getting killed is pretty brutal, but kind of crossed a line. Though from a story perspective, that bit DOES give a context of darkness over the whole situation with the town of people just hanging around- but the slapstick of the Metro battle and the one-liners in that section really undermined the last act of SII imo. With SIII- I ultimately look at that film as Lester's opportunity to show what he was capable of, when he didn't have Donner's footage to take credit for. And- with nobody really in love with that film..... well.... it looked like a sad waste imo of talent all the way around.
|
|