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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 26, 2022 12:28:44 GMT -5
JC just mentioned that he was exhausted directing the Avatar films and wanted to hand the other sequels off to other directors.
In which case...
In my opinion, hand off Superman reboot as a franchise to James Cameron and write the man any kind of check he wants.
Thoughts?
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 26, 2022 14:37:39 GMT -5
No.
Cameron has lost what he once had.
Terminator Dark Fate was utter crap.
A Superman reboot needs to be in the hands of someone who grew up with STM and knows how to make movies properly. Some examples of cases where this worked well are the first Creed movie and the Cibra Kai series.
20 years ago, I might have wanted Mel Gibson to direct.
And if James Cameron was still the guy he was in the 1990s, then that would have been good too.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 26, 2022 15:01:09 GMT -5
No. Cameron has lost what he once had. Terminator Dark Fate was utter crap. A Superman reboot needs to be in the hands of someone who grew up with STM and knows how to make movies properly. Some examples of cases where this worked well are the first Creed movie and the Cibra Kai series. 20 years ago, I might have wanted Mel Gibson to direct. And if James Cameron was still the guy he was in the 1990s, then that would have been good too. Thanks for sharing thoughts, ATP! I agree with some of your feelings on your reply- Terminator: Dark Fate- he only produced, and I enjoyed them far better than any of the other Terminator sequels after T2.... BUT- #1: Big miscalculation on trying to be greedy with a new trilogy rather than fleshing out fully with Sarah Connor's story and wrapping it up. #2: Not trusting that the audience would be interested in Sarah Connor's story and trying to replace it with a younger new lead (who I liked but beside the point). #3: Killing off John Connor in the first couple of minutes. Didn't Cameron complain about killing off Newt in the first few minutes of Alien 3? Bad vibes killing off a popular character in the first five minutes. It may have been a studio compromise- but, yeah, I was ultimately disappointed in Dark Fate. I have more trust in Cameron to find the heart of Supes but bring out the epic. Love or hate Titanic, he's not afraid to be sentimental - and still keep a sense of epic. Having said that, I only thought Avatar was 'eh' and felt like watered-down Cameron. Since Cameron's films usually result in a new breakthrough of one kind or another, I wasn't happy when I heard he was committed to only Avatar till the end.... so I thought- hey.... if WB wants something new but bankable and Cameron still hasn't done a comic book film- why not?
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 26, 2022 16:26:46 GMT -5
No. Cameron has lost what he once had. Terminator Dark Fate was utter crap. A Superman reboot needs to be in the hands of someone who grew up with STM and knows how to make movies properly. Some examples of cases where this worked well are the first Creed movie and the Cibra Kai series. 20 years ago, I might have wanted Mel Gibson to direct. And if James Cameron was still the guy he was in the 1990s, then that would have been good too. Thanks for sharing thoughts, ATP! I agree with some of your feelings on your reply- Terminator: Dark Fate- he only produced, and I enjoyed them far better than any of the other Terminator sequels after T2.... BUT- #1: Big miscalculation on trying to be greedy with a new trilogy rather than fleshing out fully with Sarah Connor's story and wrapping it up. #2: Not trusting that the audience would be interested in Sarah Connor's story and trying to replace it with a younger new lead (who I liked but beside the point). #3: Killing off John Connor in the first couple of minutes. Didn't Cameron complain about killing off Newt in the first few minutes of Alien 3? Bad vibes killing off a popular character in the first five minutes. It may have been a studio compromise- but, yeah, I was ultimately disappointed in Dark Fate. I have more trust in Cameron to find the heart of Supes but bring out the epic. Love or hate Titanic, he's not afraid to be sentimental - and still keep a sense of epic. Having said that, I only thought Avatar was 'eh' and felt like watered-down Cameron. Since Cameron's films usually result in a new breakthrough of one kind or another, I wasn't happy when I heard he was committed to only Avatar till the end.... so I thought- hey.... if WB wants something new but bankable and Cameron still hasn't done a comic book film- why not? Titanic was fantastic. If he could bring that magic to Superman, I'd be thrilled. Avatar was crap though. I just don't understand the hype
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Post by Metallo on Jul 26, 2022 21:12:17 GMT -5
I agree with ATP. Cameron is not that guy anymore and even at his peak I’m not sure he was ever the right guy to direct a Superman movie. Visually it would be impressive I’m sure but beyond that?
Cameron knows he’s getting older. He wants to spin Avatar off into another money making franchise for himself and focus on other films and maybe even do the same thing with those films one day. That’s what these guys do now. They direct something and if it’s a massive hit they then become mega producers and let someone else direct sequels for them because they see there’s more money to be made that way.
They all want multiple franchises. Ridley Scott even wanted to do it with the Alien property saying he didn’t see why it couldn’t be the next Star Wars or Star Trek which was silly. These greedy old timers, especially the ones past their prime, can taste that money.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 26, 2022 23:49:35 GMT -5
I agree with ATP. Cameron is not that guy anymore and even at his peak I’m not sure he was ever the right guy to direct a Superman movie. Visually it would be impressive I’m sure but beyond that? Cameron knows he’s getting older. He wants to spin Avatar off into another money making franchise for himself and focus on other films and maybe even do the same thing with those films one day. That’s what these guys do now. They direct something and if it’s a massive hit they then become mega producers and let someone else direct sequels for them because they see there’s more money to be made that way. They all want multiple franchises. Ridley Scott even wanted to do it with the Alien property saying he didn’t see why it couldn’t be the next Star Wars or Star Trek which was silly. These greedy old timers, especially the ones past their prime, can taste that money. I think if Cameron was as passionate about Superman as he was about bringing T2 or Titanic to the screen, then I'd be excited. The stuff he's produced has never had the same quality control as stuff that had his director credit to. The thing is: he was passionate about telling the Spiderman story and possibly the X-men story. He never expressed the same passion for Superman. Singer was possibly the only real passionate A-level director who wanted to tell the Superman story outside of Donner- The results are of course mixed, but glad to at least enjoy a taste of what could have been with SR. The sad thing is: I think most quality directors who get Superman wouldn't want to compete internally with DOnner's version and balked quietly at Snyder's version. The ones who are like Lester and would want to exploit someone else's success to try to jumpstart their own- I'm not sure I'd want to have direct a Superman reboot--- Though- sadly, I'm not virtuous enough to avoid a movie if the director behaves not so great if the movie turns out good anyhow. If Lester finished Superman II in a way that I thought I accepted, I would have looked the other way on whatever his motives were. But- I'm sounding like a broken record and off-topic. Cameron isn't in love with the Superman story- but if he somehow did and could bring the same firepower and passion that he had for Titanic- darn, I'd be excited about it even if I wasn't overwhelmed with Avatar.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 27, 2022 11:42:55 GMT -5
I agree with ATP. Cameron is not that guy anymore and even at his peak I’m not sure he was ever the right guy to direct a Superman movie. Visually it would be impressive I’m sure but beyond that? Cameron knows he’s getting older. He wants to spin Avatar off into another money making franchise for himself and focus on other films and maybe even do the same thing with those films one day. That’s what these guys do now. They direct something and if it’s a massive hit they then become mega producers and let someone else direct sequels for them because they see there’s more money to be made that way. They all want multiple franchises. Ridley Scott even wanted to do it with the Alien property saying he didn’t see why it couldn’t be the next Star Wars or Star Trek which was silly. These greedy old timers, especially the ones past their prime, can taste that money. I think if Cameron was as passionate about Superman as he was about bringing T2 or Titanic to the screen, then I'd be excited. The stuff he's produced has never had the same quality control as stuff that had his director credit to. The thing is: he was passionate about telling the Spiderman story and possibly the X-men story. He never expressed the same passion for Superman. Singer was possibly the only real passionate A-level director who wanted to tell the Superman story outside of Donner- The results are of course mixed, but glad to at least enjoy a taste of what could have been with SR. The sad thing is: I think most quality directors who get Superman wouldn't want to compete internally with DOnner's version and balked quietly at Snyder's version. The ones who are like Lester and would want to exploit someone else's success to try to jumpstart their own- I'm not sure I'd want to have direct a Superman reboot--- Though- sadly, I'm not virtuous enough to avoid a movie if the director behaves not so great if the movie turns out good anyhow. If Lester finished Superman II in a way that I thought I accepted, I would have looked the other way on whatever his motives were. But- I'm sounding like a broken record and off-topic. Cameron isn't in love with the Superman story- but if he somehow did and could bring the same firepower and passion that he had for Titanic- darn, I'd be excited about it even if I wasn't overwhelmed with Avatar. I think even if he was passionate I don’t think it would work out well because I think he’s lost something as a writer in the last 25 years. He seems to be more concerned with spectacle.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 27, 2022 14:39:06 GMT -5
I think if Cameron was as passionate about Superman as he was about bringing T2 or Titanic to the screen, then I'd be excited. The stuff he's produced has never had the same quality control as stuff that had his director credit to. The thing is: he was passionate about telling the Spiderman story and possibly the X-men story. He never expressed the same passion for Superman. Singer was possibly the only real passionate A-level director who wanted to tell the Superman story outside of Donner- The results are of course mixed, but glad to at least enjoy a taste of what could have been with SR. The sad thing is: I think most quality directors who get Superman wouldn't want to compete internally with DOnner's version and balked quietly at Snyder's version. The ones who are like Lester and would want to exploit someone else's success to try to jumpstart their own- I'm not sure I'd want to have direct a Superman reboot--- Though- sadly, I'm not virtuous enough to avoid a movie if the director behaves not so great if the movie turns out good anyhow. If Lester finished Superman II in a way that I thought I accepted, I would have looked the other way on whatever his motives were. But- I'm sounding like a broken record and off-topic. Cameron isn't in love with the Superman story- but if he somehow did and could bring the same firepower and passion that he had for Titanic- darn, I'd be excited about it even if I wasn't overwhelmed with Avatar. I think even if he was passionate I don’t think it would work out well because I think he’s lost something as a writer in the last 25 years. He seems to be more concerned with spectacle. I sometimes have thought: Is Cameron overrated? Then, I'll go see a few extremely expensive but meh copycats and then go--- 'Well... maybe I didn't give him enough credit', though. While I was disappointed in the last Terminator movie- I thought it was still good- plus, compare it to any of the Star Wars prequels and 2 of the 3 sequels to Star Wars. Or the Jurrassic Park sequels, which are mixed to say the least... I still think Avatar is a good film, but in looking at some of the deleted scenes, some of the story structure tripped over itself and I think contributed to Avatar not being great. He puts out so little output as a director it's hard for me to come out with too many conclusions on his current ability. His stuff produced always seems a bit weak, when he's not in the full driver's seat. My rankings for his films: #1: Aliens/Terminator 2- (tie) #2: Titanic #3: Terminator #4: Abyss #5: True Lies/Avatar (tie)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jul 27, 2022 15:16:50 GMT -5
I think even if he was passionate I don’t think it would work out well because I think he’s lost something as a writer in the last 25 years. He seems to be more concerned with spectacle. I sometimes have thought: Is Cameron overrated? Then, I'll go see a few extremely expensive but meh copycats and then go--- 'Well... maybe I didn't give him enough credit', though. While I was disappointed in the last Terminator movie- I thought it was still good- plus, compare it to any of the Star Wars prequels and 2 of the 3 sequels to Star Wars. Or the Jurrassic Park sequels, which are mixed to say the least... I still think Avatar is a good film, but in looking at some of the deleted scenes, some of the story structure tripped over itself and I think contributed to Avatar not being great. He puts out so little output as a director it's hard for me to come out with too many conclusions on his current ability. His stuff produced always seems a bit weak, when he's not in the full driver's seat. My rankings for his films: #1: Aliens/Terminator 2- (tie) #2: Titanic #3: Terminator #4: Abyss #5: True Lies/Avatar (tie) I don’t run think he’s overrated I just feel he’s lost some of his potency as a writer. He was never a truly all time great writer but he worked very well in certain genres. He’s still a strong visual director but when in comes to story and character he’s lost a step.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jul 31, 2022 16:01:54 GMT -5
I sometimes have thought: Is Cameron overrated? Then, I'll go see a few extremely expensive but meh copycats and then go--- 'Well... maybe I didn't give him enough credit', though. While I was disappointed in the last Terminator movie- I thought it was still good- plus, compare it to any of the Star Wars prequels and 2 of the 3 sequels to Star Wars. Or the Jurrassic Park sequels, which are mixed to say the least... I still think Avatar is a good film, but in looking at some of the deleted scenes, some of the story structure tripped over itself and I think contributed to Avatar not being great. He puts out so little output as a director it's hard for me to come out with too many conclusions on his current ability. His stuff produced always seems a bit weak, when he's not in the full driver's seat. My rankings for his films: #1: Aliens/Terminator 2- (tie) #2: Titanic #3: Terminator #4: Abyss #5: True Lies/Avatar (tie) I don’t run think he’s overrated I just feel he’s lost some of his potency as a writer. He was never a truly all time great writer but he worked very well in certain genres. He’s still a strong visual director but when in comes to story and character he’s lost a step. I would agree- he's not the strongest writer- but whenever he wrote/directed, it was really potent and something special. His written/produced works always felt like something missing.
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Post by Metallo on Aug 1, 2022 15:46:06 GMT -5
I don’t run think he’s overrated I just feel he’s lost some of his potency as a writer. He was never a truly all time great writer but he worked very well in certain genres. He’s still a strong visual director but when in comes to story and character he’s lost a step. I would agree- he's not the strongest writer- but whenever he wrote/directed, it was really potent and something special. His written/produced works always felt like something missing. I agree. He’s always had his limitations. Keep mind some of his best works had accusations of ripping off or outright plagiarizing others. The actual writing (story and dialogue and character development) was still good but his concepts were said to be someone else’s. Even Avatars story has been called a mishmash of other better ones.
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Post by atp on Aug 1, 2022 16:18:05 GMT -5
I would agree- he's not the strongest writer- but whenever he wrote/directed, it was really potent and something special. His written/produced works always felt like something missing. I agree. He’s always had his limitations. Keep mind some of his best works had accusations of ripping off or outright plagiarizing others. The actual writing (story and dialogue and character development) was still good but his concepts were said to be someone else’s. Even Avatars story has been called a mishmash of other better ones. Avatar is Dances With Wolves in space The Terminator was Somewhere In Time but as a horror film
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 1, 2022 18:01:53 GMT -5
I agree. He’s always had his limitations. Keep mind some of his best works had accusations of ripping off or outright plagiarizing others. The actual writing (story and dialogue and character development) was still good but his concepts were said to be someone else’s. Even Avatars story has been called a mishmash of other better ones. Avatar is Dances With Wolves in space The Terminator was Somewhere In Time but as a horror film Don’t forget Ferngully. Look up “James Cameron Harlan Ellison The Outer Limits.” Specifically look up the episodes “Demon With A Glass Hand” and “Soldier.” The legal action was only over one of them but when you watch them or read about them it’s hard not to see similarities both have with The Terminator. Ellison even gets an acknowledgement at the end of later releases of The Terminators end credits. Cameron has always denied any influence but I wasn’t born yesterday. Ellison and Somewhere In Time writer Richard Matheson were of the same era and Cameron would have been familiar with both of them. Also the ending of Titanic is also right out of Somewhere In Time.
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Post by Kamdan on Aug 2, 2022 14:10:39 GMT -5
What screwed Cameron was that he said that he “ripped off a couple of Outer Limits episodes” to a reporter visiting Terminator’s set. Ellison caught wind of this and wanted to see if the rumors were true that the plot strongly resembled his Soldier segment. It’s pretty obvious Cameron was influenced not just by the content of opposing forces from the future who arrive in the present for one of them to be questioned by a psychologist, but the very first shots of both stories start off with a barren landscapes with laser beams streaking across them. Cameron learn his lesson on not admitting where he got his ideas from and avoided troubles like this by being upfront with Michael Blake and giving him an acknowledgment in the credits for Avatar.
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Post by Metallo on Aug 2, 2022 16:17:45 GMT -5
What screwed Cameron was that he said that he “ripped off a couple of Outer Limits episodes” to a reporter visiting Terminator’s set. Ellison caught wind of this and wanted to see if the rumors were true that the plot strongly resembled his Soldier segment. It’s pretty obvious Cameron was influenced not just by the content of opposing forces from the future who arrive in the present for one of them to be questioned by a psychologist, but the very first shots of both stories start off with a barren landscapes with laser beams streaking across them. Cameron learn his lesson on not admitting where he got his ideas from and avoided troubles like this by being upfront with Michael Blake and giving him an acknowledgment in the credits for Avatar. Right. It may not have held up in court otherwise but it’s obvious if you watch the episodes and I do say episodes because I see it in both. It’s the same with Aliens and Starship troopers. The similarities aren’t as overt or frequent but they are there.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 2, 2022 18:14:37 GMT -5
What screwed Cameron was that he said that he “ripped off a couple of Outer Limits episodes” to a reporter visiting Terminator’s set. Ellison caught wind of this and wanted to see if the rumors were true that the plot strongly resembled his Soldier segment. It’s pretty obvious Cameron was influenced not just by the content of opposing forces from the future who arrive in the present for one of them to be questioned by a psychologist, but the very first shots of both stories start off with a barren landscapes with laser beams streaking across them. Cameron learn his lesson on not admitting where he got his ideas from and avoided troubles like this by being upfront with Michael Blake and giving him an acknowledgment in the credits for Avatar. I reserve judgement on this stuff.... I write stuff, too- and am part of different writers' groups where stuff a member mentions working on can inadverdently sound like this or that other pre-existing work. It is sometimes hard to say (especially if one digests a lot of work) if something subconsciously seeps in when someone is creating something and be 'totally original'. Alan Moore once talked about this happening to an old work, and nobody else called attention to it but himself. Peter David has written posts about this kind of situation, too. I'm not saying that I know for a fact this or that wasn't stolen, but that it can be subconscious. Those who are confident on themselves but digest a lot can have stuff come out that resembles others work. Again, I'm not saying that I know for sure this or that- but that I know for myself I'll even be in a writer's group and hear someone else talk about a new story they've come up with, and if I did end up writing it fully--- it wouldn't have been something stolen, but that I've been thinking about myself already before hearing about it, but hadn't fully formed. So I do know coincidences can happen. We're all influenced on different levels, sometimes conscious, sometimes not, by stuff we've digested. My two cents...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 2, 2022 19:12:41 GMT -5
What screwed Cameron was that he said that he “ripped off a couple of Outer Limits episodes” to a reporter visiting Terminator’s set. Ellison caught wind of this and wanted to see if the rumors were true that the plot strongly resembled his Soldier segment. It’s pretty obvious Cameron was influenced not just by the content of opposing forces from the future who arrive in the present for one of them to be questioned by a psychologist, but the very first shots of both stories start off with a barren landscapes with laser beams streaking across them. Cameron learn his lesson on not admitting where he got his ideas from and avoided troubles like this by being upfront with Michael Blake and giving him an acknowledgment in the credits for Avatar. I reserve judgement on this stuff.... I write stuff, too- and am part of different writers' groups where stuff a member mentions working on can inadverdently sound like this or that other pre-existing work. It is sometimes hard to say (especially if one digests a lot of work) if something subconsciously seeps in when someone is creating something and be 'totally original'. Alan Moore once talked about this happening to an old work, and nobody else called attention to it but himself. Peter David has written posts about this kind of situation, too. I'm not saying that I know for a fact this or that wasn't stolen, but that it can be subconscious. Those who are confident on themselves but digest a lot can have stuff come out that resembles others work. Again, I'm not saying that I know for sure this or that- but that I know for myself I'll even be in a writer's group and hear someone else talk about a new story they've come up with, and if I did end up writing it fully--- it wouldn't have been something stolen, but that I've been thinking about myself already before hearing about it, but hadn't fully formed. So I do know coincidences can happen. We're all influenced on different levels, sometimes conscious, sometimes not, by stuff we've digested. My two cents... It happens. I think Cameron has talked about it himself. But if it’s a sub conscious influence it’s one thing. If you realize it is before the thing comes out and still don’t give any kind of credit it’s another thing entirely. To me the other works and his are too similar for him not to have noticed it. If he did and then admitted it I’d be ok with that but it seems like officially he didn’t want to give any kind of credit for being influenced by Ellison’s Outer Limits work until he was forced to.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 3, 2022 0:42:35 GMT -5
I reserve judgement on this stuff.... I write stuff, too- and am part of different writers' groups where stuff a member mentions working on can inadverdently sound like this or that other pre-existing work. It is sometimes hard to say (especially if one digests a lot of work) if something subconsciously seeps in when someone is creating something and be 'totally original'. Alan Moore once talked about this happening to an old work, and nobody else called attention to it but himself. Peter David has written posts about this kind of situation, too. I'm not saying that I know for a fact this or that wasn't stolen, but that it can be subconscious. Those who are confident on themselves but digest a lot can have stuff come out that resembles others work. Again, I'm not saying that I know for sure this or that- but that I know for myself I'll even be in a writer's group and hear someone else talk about a new story they've come up with, and if I did end up writing it fully--- it wouldn't have been something stolen, but that I've been thinking about myself already before hearing about it, but hadn't fully formed. So I do know coincidences can happen. We're all influenced on different levels, sometimes conscious, sometimes not, by stuff we've digested. My two cents... It happens. I think Cameron has talked about it himself. But if it’s a sub conscious influence it’s one thing. If you realize it is before the thing comes out and still don’t give any kind of credit it’s another thing entirely. To me the other works and his are too similar for him not to have noticed it. If he did and then admitted it I’d be ok with that but it seems like officially he didn’t want to give any kind of credit for being influenced by Ellison’s Outer Limits work until he was forced to. Totally fair. I remember also at one of the rare Star Trek: Next Gen scriptwriting seminars that came out with Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, they had talked about how oftentimes during a pitch by a fan- a fan might pitch a story during the writer's strike (when it was open to fans to submit with release form)- that they had already had in the works, and then have a fan try to sue them afterwards- thinking that it was their idea that they stole- when the timing was such that actually they just couldn't reveal that they had already come up with something similar. I think this kind of thing can happen more often than not- which is why they said they wouldn't listen to pitches without the fan having already written a script draft first and having signed the release form... and that it really wasn't worth it to steal a fan's work rather than just buy the idea if it really was their first time hearing it. (The script coordinator explained at the time that the studio had authorized different levels of purchase- that they could/would pay 'x' amount just for the idea, maybe another for the script, and another to have them actually re-write it. Pity it wasn't shared how much each level was, though!)
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Post by Metallo on Aug 3, 2022 13:53:07 GMT -5
It happens. I think Cameron has talked about it himself. But if it’s a sub conscious influence it’s one thing. If you realize it is before the thing comes out and still don’t give any kind of credit it’s another thing entirely. To me the other works and his are too similar for him not to have noticed it. If he did and then admitted it I’d be ok with that but it seems like officially he didn’t want to give any kind of credit for being influenced by Ellison’s Outer Limits work until he was forced to. Totally fair. I remember also at one of the rare Star Trek: Next Gen scriptwriting seminars that came out with Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, they had talked about how oftentimes during a pitch by a fan- a fan might pitch a story during the writer's strike (when it was open to fans to submit with release form)- that they had already had in the works, and then have a fan try to sue them afterwards- thinking that it was their idea that they stole- when the timing was such that actually they just couldn't reveal that they had already come up with something similar. I think this kind of thing can happen more often than not- which is why they said they wouldn't listen to pitches without the fan having already written a script draft first and having signed the release form... and that it really wasn't worth it to steal a fan's work rather than just buy the idea if it really was their first time hearing it. (The script coordinator explained at the time that the studio had authorized different levels of purchase- that they could/would pay 'x' amount just for the idea, maybe another for the script, and another to have them actually re-write it. Pity it wasn't shared how much each level was, though!) Independent creation or multiple discovery does happen. Different people can draw on the same pool of influences. It’s when the ideas are too similar that is plagiarism and there is a legal threshold for that. Cameron may have exceeded that threshold. Others certainly have and that’s when they’re in trouble. Look at the Michael Bay movie movie The Island. I knew immediately what they’d done because years before I’d seen the Clonus Horror on MST3K and said myself with more money and better talent this could be a good movie. The writers of The Island apparently felt the same way and actually acted on it. Even with Star Trek DS9 has often been accused of plagiarizing Babylon 5. Not just because of different people having similar ideas but having so many similar ideas right down to names and factions and set ups and long term storytelling. I love both shows but it’s hard to simply believe it was all two camps coming up with so many of the same ideas and storylines independently. Part of it can be attributed to drawing from the same biblical, mythical, and literary sources. Nothing illegal about that but sometimes it got to be far too blatant to ignore. JMS claimed he pitched B5 to Paramount first then to Warner Bros.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 3, 2022 16:35:04 GMT -5
Totally fair. I remember also at one of the rare Star Trek: Next Gen scriptwriting seminars that came out with Ron Moore and Brannon Braga, they had talked about how oftentimes during a pitch by a fan- a fan might pitch a story during the writer's strike (when it was open to fans to submit with release form)- that they had already had in the works, and then have a fan try to sue them afterwards- thinking that it was their idea that they stole- when the timing was such that actually they just couldn't reveal that they had already come up with something similar. I think this kind of thing can happen more often than not- which is why they said they wouldn't listen to pitches without the fan having already written a script draft first and having signed the release form... and that it really wasn't worth it to steal a fan's work rather than just buy the idea if it really was their first time hearing it. (The script coordinator explained at the time that the studio had authorized different levels of purchase- that they could/would pay 'x' amount just for the idea, maybe another for the script, and another to have them actually re-write it. Pity it wasn't shared how much each level was, though!) Independent creation or multiple discovery does happen. Different people can draw on the same pool of influences. It’s when the ideas are too similar that is plagiarism and there is a legal threshold for that. Cameron may have exceeded that threshold. Others certainly have and that’s when they’re in trouble. Look at the Michael Bay movie movie The Island. I knew immediately what they’d done because years before I’d seen the Clonus Horror on MST3K and said myself with more money and better talent this could be a good movie. The writers of The Island apparently felt the same way and actually acted on it. Even with Star Trek DS9 has often been accused of plagiarizing Babylon 5. Not just because of different people having similar ideas but having so many similar ideas right down to names and factions and set ups and long term storytelling. I love both shows but it’s hard to simply believe it was all two camps coming up with so many of the same ideas and storylines independently. Part of it can be attributed to drawing from the same biblical, mythical, and literary sources. Nothing illegal about that but sometimes it got to be far too blatant to ignore. JMS claimed he pitched B5 to Paramount first then to Warner Bros. I've never been part of the Writers Guild of America, but have heard that the arbitration system there at least is an attempt to be fair. Sometimes in a way that's impossible to please everyone - and sometimes I could see it be a Roshomon situation when it comes to mental concepts and faulty memory. (Aside: I think one thing 'good' is that when/if multiple projects are done with similar ideas- the best execution is the one that stays in memory over time, though, and outlasts the other. That part is democratic in a way.) I try not to get too deep into who should have been credited for what.... because it gets me riled up at the unfairness, without having a solution. The creative justice system drives me nuts when I think about how long families have to fight for due credit and royalties- when the right thing could have just been done if parties weren't too greedy. As an example... Right now I'm thinking of Sylvester Stallone fighting over even a portion of Rocky and the characters he created. Even if he sold it when young and got paid.... it's hard not to side with him and feel like he is entitled to a taste of ownership for his kids. Also... Look at how George Lucas is scandal free with all the money he's made- I read he gave his actors points in Star Wars even when he didn't have to. And with all the money, people (like me, too, actually) complain about the quality of the prequels- but nothing else bad I've ever read about him despite all the money he's made. Point being- there's a lot of money made by
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