dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 28, 2023 3:24:28 GMT -5
Clark's reaction would be: "Lois........I don't know what to say" So after giving up his powers for Lois only to be unceremoniously dumped right after when Lois could have done it BEFOREHAND… Clark wouldn’t go into an uncontrollable rage? Wouldn’t you have punched Lois if you were in Clarks position? Maybe Clark would say: "I can give as good as I get"......and headbutt Lois in the chest.....into a resevoir of acid. Hey..it's just a hyothesis.
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Post by dejan on Jun 28, 2023 2:32:36 GMT -5
Come on guys......for STM.....an F bomb surely has to drop when Supes flies round the corner of that hill/mountain and discovers that Lois is dead! F************************k!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or maybe when he starts flying upwards to commence turning back the world: F******************************************************k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by dejan on Jun 28, 2023 2:25:10 GMT -5
Hmm....not sure.....possibly, now that you mention it. Just checked his resume' and he has been to Julliard.....so his acting has to be of a decent standard. Routh was a model(and his acting reflected that - sorry CAM- I know you like the guy!).....and Cavill's attraction was more for his looks....than his acting. Welling and Hoelchin are/were good TV Supermen. Caine was a good soap opera Superman(sorry- was never a fan of that show). But maybe Coranswet might be the guy to finally give Reeve a run for his money on the acting front. Why can’t they use AI technology to bring back Reeve? Haven't they done that for The Flash? I think poor ol' Reeve is turning in his grave(oh wait.....think he was cremated!).
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Post by dejan on Jun 28, 2023 2:12:44 GMT -5
My opinion is superior to most contemporary critics, though. With all due respect, I'll respect our differing views, but it's silly to bring in strangers to this conversation. Critics are people who are no more or less critical than us. It's not as if they're superhuman, yeh? hehe! If there were any critics who loved Superman IV back in the day.........i'll just have to kill them!
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Post by dejan on Jun 28, 2023 2:04:30 GMT -5
Am I the only one that feels a GIANT 'Henry Cavill' vibe from Coranswet? (I liked Cavill though the writing for him was all wrong imo) Hmm....not sure.....possibly, now that you mention it. Just checked his resume' and he has been to Julliard.....so his acting has to be of a decent standard. Routh was a model(and his acting reflected that - sorry CAM- I know you like the guy!).....and Cavill's attraction was more for his looks....than his acting. Welling and Hoelchin are/were good TV Supermen. Caine was a good soap opera Superman(sorry- was never a fan of that show). But maybe Coranswet might be the guy to finally give Reeve a run for his money on the acting front.
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Post by dejan on Jun 28, 2023 1:46:30 GMT -5
Clark/Superman/Kalel had a high threshold for not hitting women.....look at how he refused to hit Ursa , despite numerous provocations: She called out his name ,providing a distraction so as to allow Non to get a thump in. She tried to bash him with a flagpole. She threw a manhole into his midrif. She then threw a bus at him. She(along with Zod and Non) tried to fry him with her laser beam from her finger. She even had the audacity to try a karate kick at his Super hologram. Jeez....what more do ya need! Despite all those temptations, Clark held back like a true gentleman.....he allowed Lois to punch Ursa instead. True class. Then what would Clarks reaction have been had Lois dumped him after the depower? Clark's reaction would be: "Lois........I don't know what to say"
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Post by dejan on Jun 27, 2023 19:58:57 GMT -5
"What?........you'd hit a woman!" You would never hit a women unless it was this one unique circumstance. Name a believable reaction from Clark of not punching Lois. You can’t because it doesn’t exist. Clark/Superman/Kalel had a high threshold for not hitting women.....look at how he refused to hit Ursa , despite numerous provocations: She called out his name ,providing a distraction so as to allow Non to get a thump in. She tried to bash him with a flagpole. She threw a manhole into his midrif. She then threw a bus at him. She(along with Zod and Non) tried to fry him with her laser beam from her finger. She even had the audacity to try a karate kick at his Super hologram. Jeez....what more do ya need! Despite all those temptations, Clark held back like a true gentleman.....he allowed Lois to punch Ursa instead. True class.
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Post by dejan on Jun 27, 2023 17:19:49 GMT -5
@cam Agreed regarding Zod's speech atop the monument. Script calls for said monument to be destroyed when Zod is challenged by the cops, so that would have necessitated the use of some kind of minature, probably shot at a higher frame rate, so as to give a sense of weight as it begins to crumble. Would also have needed live action plates with extras(portraying the cops and the general public) to be amalgamated to matte paintings of Washington. This was a standard practice for the time.....the one drawback being the loss of resolution when both elements(matt painting and live plate) were composited together. Still would have been interesting to see how that would have turned out if Donner had got a crack at it back in 79'. Mank called for Zod's speech to be dubbed over the destruction of Tokyo,Moscow and Paris. As I said a few times in other threads, IMHO.....those shots would have needed padding out.....otherwise they would have been a touch too quick to have any real resonance. i.e in the script, Moscow and Tokyo are already in flames(and the villains are long gone or have exited the frame)......so I would have added extra shots of the villains actually causing said fires(courtesy of their heat vision).....stuff like that ect ect. Again, just my 2 cents. On edit: Just checked Mank's script.....Non does indeed use his heat vision to melt the Eiffel Tower......so that's more like it.....Tokyo and Moscow needed the same personal touch from the villains in frame...ect ect
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Post by dejan on Jun 27, 2023 16:44:34 GMT -5
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Post by dejan on Jun 27, 2023 16:32:04 GMT -5
Have to respectfully disagree(as always!). Lester had very cleverly written a few scenes where Lois was already warming up to Clark: In the office: Lois: "What else are friends for?". Clark: "Friends huh?". In the hotel: Clark: "Gee....you look very pretty". Lois: "Thank you Clark"(places hand on his shoulder). At the Falls: Clark: "Everybody else is holding hands......maybe we should too" Lois: "Here is my hand Clark......hold it" Back at the hotel after Clark takes off his glasses: Clark: "I don't know why I did that". Lois: "Maybe you did not want to do it with your mind.......but maybe you wanted to do it with your heart". IMHO.....made the relationship much more believable and layered.....so when the time came for Supes to be depowered.....it was more acceptable to Lois that she was truly in love with the guy .....as opposed to what he was(Supes). In fact this point is re-inforced just after the depowering is finished: Lois: "You did all that for me?......I don't know what to say". Clark: "Just say you love me" Lois hugs him. Beautiful recitation from the actors and great directing from Lester. Cinematography looks fantastic too.....more so in 4K. So Lois was ultimately in love with the man because of the sacrifice he made(in giving up his powers). That was a clear break from Mank's rather monolithic and one dimensional charade in his script,where Lois kept pissing all over Clark....whilst being head over heals in love with Supes. It worked for STM.....but had it continued in that vain in SII, had Donner been allowed to finish, it would not have been believable that Lois could point blank accept a depowered Clark as the guy she was always in love with. Lester, having had far more experience with romance in his movie repetoire, than Donner(unless Donner tackled serious romance in his TV stuff?), by that point in the late 70s , noticed the deficiencies in the Mank script and rectified them. That's why most contemporary critics rated the love story as depicted in the theatrical SII as being better or superior to what was seen in STM. You’re dodging the question. If Lois had rejected Clark right after he gave up his powers for her what would have been his reaction if not punching her?? That’s the only plausible reaction and everyone on this forum would have done the same. "What?........you'd hit a woman!"
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Post by dejan on Jun 27, 2023 13:02:03 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's right to hit a woman. What I'm saying is that anyone would understand Clark punching Lois if she friend-zoned Clark's booty the moment he came of the of the molecular chamber. Lois: I don't know what to say. Clark: Just say you love me. Lois: Well actually I think we should just be friends. You see I never really loved you I was only in love with Superman. Clark: POW! I'LL KNOCK YOUR LIGHTS OUT! Well...... I always hated the exchange between Lois and Clark even on first view of SII right after the depowering as directed by Lester. The performances (and the way it was shot/edited didn't help) seemed very 'off'... we know that Reeve and Kidder didn't really get along, but Donner was able to make us believe that they loved one another in STM... didn't really feel that in this scene. It was clear to me that sentimentality just isn't in Lester's DNA. This rewritten exchange is a bit misogynistic, but it seems to have more plausibility than the theatrical scene as it was in the theatres! lol Have to respectfully disagree(as always!). Lester had very cleverly written a few scenes where Lois was already warming up to Clark: In the office: Lois: "What else are friends for?". Clark: "Friends huh?". In the hotel: Clark: "Gee....you look very pretty". Lois: "Thank you Clark"(places hand on his shoulder). At the Falls: Clark: "Everybody else is holding hands......maybe we should too" Lois: "Here is my hand Clark......hold it" Back at the hotel after Clark takes off his glasses: Clark: "I don't know why I did that". Lois: "Maybe you did not want to do it with your mind.......but maybe you wanted to do it with your heart". IMHO.....made the relationship much more believable and layered.....so when the time came for Supes to be depowered.....it was more acceptable to Lois that she was truly in love with the guy .....as opposed to what he was(Supes). In fact this point is re-inforced just after the depowering is finished: Lois: "You did all that for me?......I don't know what to say". Clark: "Just say you love me" Lois hugs him. Beautiful recitation from the actors and great directing from Lester. Cinematography looks fantastic too.....more so in 4K. So Lois was ultimately in love with the man because of the sacrifice he made(in giving up his powers). That was a clear break from Mank's rather monolithic and one dimensional charade in his script,where Lois kept pissing all over Clark....whilst being head over heals in love with Supes. It worked for STM.....but had it continued in that vain in SII, had Donner been allowed to finish, it would not have been believable that Lois could point blank accept a depowered Clark as the guy she was always in love with. Lester, having had far more experience with romance in his movie repetoire, than Donner(unless Donner tackled serious romance in his TV stuff?), by that point in the late 70s , noticed the deficiencies in the Mank script and rectified them. That's why most contemporary critics rated the love story as depicted in the theatrical SII as being better or superior to what was seen in STM.
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Post by dejan on Jun 26, 2023 17:07:59 GMT -5
It's all opinions ofcourse,but I prefer SII to the 3 and 4 Muskys. But it is very interesting that Lester excised all the toilet humor from those Donner segments. Having gone through most of Lester's work.....that Chris Lloyd pissing himself scene in Butch & Sundance is the one toilet humor type joke in all his films. There is a very quick scene in The 3 Muskys where a cleaning lady pours a pile of s**t out of a window on some unsuspecting fella below.....so that's another one. As for Sydney J Furie's interpretation of toilet humor......well, SIV was s**t! Eh.... In an ideal world, SIV would have had the budget originally afforded it- but even as is, it has a LOT more going for it than the fully-budgeted Lester SIII. But, we each have our preferences, as you mentioned- (and I agree) On another note- you didn't care for Three Musketeers? (Or not as much as Four?)- Can you elaborate? I thought Three was fantastic- Lester's redeeming feature, and parts of Four were great- but the flow wasn't smooth storywise as Three- with humor at mistimed spots that stopped the story in its tracks (much like how I didn't like his approach in SII during the Metro battle). I do wonder- was the editor to blame for SII for not standing up to Lester and excising the worst parts for SII? I find even fans who adore Lester's work, don't really point to the Metro battle gags as the best part of SII. Donner's toilet jokes may have appeared with the Lex and Otis parts, but I didn't see a trace of humor during the Metro battle. And the humor with the villains/Lex came from the contrast primarily of both playing their parts 'straight'- and not a wink, like Lester's rewrites did. (Non being more childlike rather than a beast, Zod as less scary but more constantly annoyed- rolling his eyes, etc.) This is probably something that belongs in the Non Supes Lester/Donner films thread but i would put the 3 & 4 Muskys much lower down in Lester's overall repertoire behind Petulia, The Knack, On The Way To The Forum, The Bed Sitting Room and How I Won The War ....but above The Beatles flicks........ But I too, love the Muskys with 4 being above 3.....some absolutely epic stuff(especially and deliberately in 4)....and quite a cinematic acheivement considering both were filmed at the same time in the non CG era. Strip out the CG from The Matrix 2&3 or the original Lord Of The Rings trilogy.....and they won't look pretty! Also, the Muskys represented Lester's first time foray into mainsteam commercial cinema.......most avant guard, "art house" cinema directors of the 50s and 60s stayed away from the temptations of Hollywood.....and deliberately so.....but Lester was ultimately American(unlike Truffeaut,Goddard,Fellini and the rest)....so that may have had something to do with the pull/attraction to make something that could have a "mass consumer" appeal , especially in the U.S. From the American perpsective,think of the likes of Terrence Mallick(who's 1978 masterpiece- Days Of Heaven - unfortunately got buried by the commercial power of STM) or David Lynch and to some extent Scorsese himself.....and you have some idea of the kind of crowd that Lester was a part of. Oblique,ambigouse,challenging the form of the cinematic medium itself, non linear narratives and opaque subject matters were the common denominators of all the aformentioned directors....even if they all still had their own distinct styles. Hal Ashby,Friedkin,Cimino and Kubrick are 4 others who were either a part of that group or heavily influenced by it. As I said before,young George Lucas was also cut from that same cinematic cloth.....the result being THX 1138....IMHO - it's a very rich film if you dig below the surface. But as I said, will attempt to go further in the other thread. With regards to the humor in the Metro battle...the ice cream and rollerskate stuff was improvised in(for better or worse).....they were not part of the original script as revised by Lester's team. I can only say that on the theatrical viewings I had in 1981 and 1982, the audience sucked it up. Anyways,outside of Empire from the year before, what else was there, in 1981, to compete with the Metro climax of SII? The fight in the Greek chateaux in For Your Eyes Only(uhg!)? The fight with Ray Harryhousen's stop motion Kraken in Clash Of The Titans? Even the stuff with the Nazis getting their faces melted off in the climax of Raiders, was fantastic because of the horror , as opposed to the scale(it was a actually a pretty small scale finale all told). There was the Picadilly Circus riot in the final part of American Warewolf In London(that was actually shot on location).But still does not compare to the scale of SII's climax. I could go on.....the fighting in the mist in Excalibur....or the climactic race in Chariots Of Fire? How about the car chase over the bridge in Escape From New York? hey....I love all those films.....but SII was simply on another level,from a technical and acting perspective(actually the acting in Chariots Of Fire is pretty darn good!). So when you look at it from a "whole-listic" vantage point, SII's novel climax, even with all those eccentricities(ice cream ect), still resonated with audiences, by virtue of the fact that it had never been seen before. On Edit: Lester was on the set of Reds(shot at the same time as Supe II) - says he watched Diane Keaton perform multiple takes of simply throwing a paper into a waste basket......lamenting time and money lost for Warren Beatty.......Lester says he wanted more spontaneity from his actors on SII.
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Post by dejan on Jun 26, 2023 10:14:09 GMT -5
Last time I checked, wasn't it Donner who had poor ol' Danny Glover strapped to a toilet in LW2! Also , what is it with Donner and toilet humor in general.....Tesmacher's remarks in the fortress.....Fogelstein's bedwetting antics, Otis missing his opportunity for a piss and Richard Prior sitting on a fart balloon in The Toy. Lester could have learnt a lot about toilet humor from Donner! On edit: Lester did have ol' Doc Brown himself, Chris Lloyd, piss himself ,in a water tank , in Butch & The Sundance Kid! True on Donner toilet humor! But..... I never objected to the Lester humor per se, (Three Musketeers is great, SII not so much) but the horrific timing and overriding original material that was already better/set in motion. It's all opinions ofcourse,but I prefer SII to the 3 and 4 Muskys. But it is very interesting that Lester excised all the toilet humor from those Donner segments. Having gone through most of Lester's work.....that Chris Lloyd pissing himself scene in Butch & Sundance is the one toilet humor type joke in all his films. There is a very quick scene in The 3 Muskys where a cleaning lady pours a pile of s**t out of a window on some unsuspecting fella below.....so that's another one. As for Sydney J Furie's interpretation of toilet humor......well, SIV was s**t!
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Post by dejan on Jun 26, 2023 9:58:31 GMT -5
Was it ever addressed that the footage of Superman and Lois’ date in the Fortress was unaccounted for when Thau was cataloging footage? It’s so strange of them to have all that Lester material in there when there could have been Donner alternates. In the original script, Mank devised a kitchen, a movie screening area(for watching old Lara, Jorel and Kalel stuff) and what is called "an upper nook of the fortress" section where Lois and Clark are tucked up together. We never got to see any of those areas in the Fortress during STM. Either they were never made in the original shoot or they were made.....but Donner never got round to actually rehearsing and lensing those actual scenes. One has to remember that the fortress actually doubled for Krypton during some of the destruction(of Krypton) scenes.
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Post by dejan on Jun 26, 2023 9:51:57 GMT -5
Margot Kidder mentioned this scene in either the Newsweek or Time magazine article- I am curious how Donner would have done this--- I assume it was going to be done in a very pg-13 style- like Reeve's "Somewhere in Time". I did think (and hope) that Donner had shot more of the Lois/Supes scenes in the FOS and would have seen more at the FOS by him, but... oh well. (Still, I want to see the rest of what's in the vaults!) I’m sure Donner shot the sex scene. Remember he shot everything in the fortress of solitude and he shot Lois wearing the Superman shirt. There had to be a hardcore x-rated sex scene to make Superman giving up his powers “worth it”. In Lesters scene the wimpy little G rated cuddle was NOT worth giving up the powers. Yup. That sex scene was so hard core that afterwards, Clark said that "my back hurts".
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 23:05:13 GMT -5
Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! I suspect Lester was suggesting this, but got overridden by Reeve. (Kidding, kidding!) Last time I checked, wasn't it Donner who had poor ol' Danny Glover strapped to a toilet in LW2! Also , what is it with Donner and toilet humor in general.....Tesmacher's remarks in the fortress.....Fogelstein's bedwetting antics, Otis missing his opportunity for a piss and Richard Prior sitting on a fart balloon in The Toy. Lester could have learnt a lot about toilet humor from Donner! On edit: Lester did have ol' Doc Brown himself, Chris Lloyd, piss himself ,in a water tank , in Butch & The Sundance Kid!
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 22:53:18 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat: "There's another, sweetheart". Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else. Sorted. Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! But very true. Let's be honest, judging by the quality of the food in that diner("another plate of that garbage") ,assuming Lois and Clark had eaten their meal as originally intended, they would have probably ended up in that toilet anyways. Rocky was trying to make it easier for them. True gentleman that he was.
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 20:53:35 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat:
"There's another, sweetheart".
Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else.
Sorted.
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 20:07:37 GMT -5
Ron pours her a can of Coke in a glass. She probably noticed there was no orange juice on the menu and went with the side salad as her health option. They could have dubbed a line of Ron saying "we only have coke". Also Lois wasn't ordering a healthy meal. A cheeseburger with EVERYTHING on it and an order of fries. That side salad doesn't make it suddenly healthy. You gotta remember bud...... The diner scene as filmed by Donner was originally intended to be appended to that raunchy sex scene at the fortress that Mank wrote (pretty much in the same clumsy manner that he instilled in the James Bond flicks):
So Lois was knackered after all that carnal activity...hence the cheeseburger and coke!
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Post by dejan on Jun 19, 2023 16:06:25 GMT -5
crownMan...I'd have field day in East Huston! I could arm wrestle Boog for breakfast, check out the barn for lunch, and go horse riding along that short windy road that poor ol' Jody got wacked on , after dinner. ATP asked if there are any national monuments worth destroying in East Huston........but East Huston is a National Monument to the American Dream, baby!
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Post by dejan on Jun 19, 2023 15:58:03 GMT -5
Everyone has their preferences, and I definitely feel like: 'if you pay the ticket price'= then you definitely have a right to complain! (hence=my continued complaining about Lester) Saw the Flash again today and actually liked it much better- but... Here is the thing- Some parts (particulary the first two acts) are VERY well done- BOTH the action scenes (especially in light of all the superhero movies that have preceded it)- and the dramatic scenes have had a strong visual flair to it (especially liked a number of 'one-er' extended money shots that enhanced the story but also were just greatly choreographed shots--- and---- whatever the thoughts might be for the star- he's GREAT in the dual role of both Barry Allens. My disappointment on the first view is primarily with how the third act action sequence is--- it's a key part, and it's functional, but I think the first two acts were stronger- but then it goes back to the personal aspect of the story - and delivers. I do wish I had gone into the movie 'cold'- and thought far higher on it. Seeing trailers and the rave reviews I think made me expect it to be even better- but it is very good, I just wish that it was a little more polished with the Keaton and Calle scenes since they were the main three. Also, I think (perhaps unfairly) any new superhero epic film subconsciously gets (fairly or no) compared to all other epic suphero films- and there's been a lot. For sure, I want the extended cut--- but I don't think we'll ever get one. But you said you watched Superman II multiple times for free, when you worked in the theater back in 1981! That being the case, you can't complain about it! Just kidding! Anyways.....even without seeing Flash, I think I can predict what kind of territory it will be in. But I will reserve judgement until I get my hands on it, one way or another. To be fair, I have seen reviews on youtube ,that have run the gamut from outright praise to complete condemnation, and everything inbetween(which I think is where your review seems to be sitting, dear cam). Just going off from my recollections of the theatrical of JL....I don't recall Ezra's Flash leaving much of an impression on me....but that is now nearly 6 years ago! Could always give that JL UHD disc a spin to refresh meself and work up some enthusiasm for the thing.....but it's kinda hard with what was a sub standard product(theatrical JL) to begin with. Just read in the Daily Mail(awful paper) that Cavill's cameo had been cut: Poor ol' Henry really has been on the receiving end of it, recently! On Edit: Just rewatched the theatrical of JL. Better than I remember it(last viewing was 3-4 years back). Not too keen on Ezra when he is tryin' to be funny.....but when he is serious....he ain't bad. Nice scene between Barry and his father in prison....with a brief cameo from ol 'Marc McLure....kinda forgot about that one!
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Post by dejan on Jun 18, 2023 15:10:03 GMT -5
The reason I have not watched pretty much the entire last phase of Marvel as well as a decent chunk of DC's latest stuff is because of this chap's reviews:
Now, I will get round to watching all of them at some point, maybe...but it's gonna be for free(basically wait for some friends to lay down the doe and lend me their copy).....and if not so be it....I'll live!
There is a saying that you get what you pay for. But there have been far, far too many occasions in the last 10 years ,where I have payed.....but I definitely have not got what I payed for!
So the only way these studio execs are gonna get the message is when their all too important wallets take a hit.....
As General Zod in MoS would say:
"To the studio execs, I say this.....surrender some quality movies to us(the fans).....or watch your wallets suffer the consequences"
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Post by dejan on Jun 18, 2023 9:31:46 GMT -5
crown Far be it from me to quote a line from Superman IV!: "I wish you could see the world the way I see it, because when you really look at it....it's one world!" Including East Huston(and the barn)! That scene at the end of Superman IV was just anti American propaganda funded by the Soviet Union. East Houston Odaho was worthless and it’s useless inhabitants were forced to live in filth. At least Non put that boy out of his misery. And the guy who said to Ursa “Hey sweet thing set them buns down here!”…. would you have cared if he has been atomized in a Nuclear Blast? NO! hehe The fella who mentioned circuses can be seen in the background attempting to fix Dwuaine's flat tyre(goto 0:01)......showing how productive East Huston citizens could be! Think of all em' flat tyres that would never be attended to if the poor fella got nuked.
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Post by dejan on Jun 18, 2023 5:18:57 GMT -5
crownFar be it from me to quote a line from Superman IV!: "I wish you could see the world the way I see it, because when you really look at it....it's one world!" Including East Huston(and the barn)!
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Post by dejan on Jun 16, 2023 16:33:43 GMT -5
Did East Houston have any key monuments that might be destroyed? Yeah..... That barn that the helicoper collided into!
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