dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 13, 2015 11:02:05 GMT -5
But Clark should have spun around really fast and turned into Superman right before kissing Lois because everyone knows only Superman should kiss Lois lol. Also you could just end the scene with them kissing and Perry looking at them perplexed (taken from the world turn scene) like a fan did way back when if there's too much of a problem with the amnesia kiss. Also does anyone think the new Donner footage ruined SII? There's so many edits out there I can't even enjoy SII anymore. Sometimes I wish we just had the Lester cut and the Donner footage remained a beautifully tragic dream that never was.
I think "ruined" might be too strong a word-"altered" I think would be more acceptable.
During the years that Donner's unseen footage was in the vaults all we had to go on was Donner's and Mank's eulogies as to how great this footage was--this combined with our own inflated expectations as to how great this footage could be exacerbated the situation. It did not help that Donner raved about the Honey Moon Haven blank shots to trick Supe's scene (in a 1989 interview) as if it was genuinely completed. Of all the scenes-this was the one I personally wanted to see most(apart from some of the Brando stuff)-so I was bitterly disappointed when it turned out that he had in fact not got round to shooting it after all- and all we had were those darn screen tests. I think that every Lester pick up or insert shot that displaced Donner's was artistically correct. Stuff like Lois's reaction to Supes on the DP ledge when he arrives to challenge Zod or the replacement scene in the DP after Luthors says "Australia!".
This is actually a good example because the look on Lois's face as the camera pulls back from that zoomed in shot of the globe(focusing on Australia) is very soulful and pensive--you feel like she is pondering about if Supes has been successful in getting his powers back as well as a sense of regret that she can no longer be with him(that is what I think anyways).
Contrast that with Donner's Lois who abruptly retorts back to Jimmy and Perry "he will be here ok" as if it is no big deal. To be fair I think Donner would have re-shot some of this stuff back in 79' had he had the chance.
But Yeah-I think Lester deserves some credit for isolating some potentially artistically problematic footage and amending it accordingly to fit in with the mood or narrative of a particular scene.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 8:07:33 GMT -5
One thing that may have worked would be for Lois to die in STM. But instead of turning back the world, Superman brings her back to life (kiss of life) by giving up his powers. Of course, with that scenario, Superman would be powerless at the end of STM so he would not put Luthor and Otis in jail. And there would be no Lois discovering his secret in S2. Also, Superman would be absent for most of S2. Probably would create more problems than it solves, but I still like the idea of giving up his powers to give Lois her life back.
I agree with you ATP:
From a fan editor's point of view -- If you could some how manipulate the footage of Supes as he gives that quick peck to the dead Lois-and somehow figure out how Lois would react as she come back to life + how to get the footage(manipulated or stock) to make it work then you might be onto something!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 4:46:06 GMT -5
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 4:43:41 GMT -5
STM and S2 are like a jigsaw. There are certain "pieces" that are good, but I don't believe they have yet been put together in the best way. - Lois dies - Superman gives up powers - Superman regains powers - Jor El sacrifices himself The trick is figuring out how best to use these. Preferably with NO time reversal in either movie.
Time reversal is the effect-the cause is Lois's death. IMHO the only thing that held it together was Lois's death.
Without her death-time reversal is wrong, meaningless and as Mank said all those years back-it would be like the icing on the cake that runs and runs-which is basically what you have in the Donner Cut at the moment.
Take out Lois's death and there would be no need for time reversal. But without Lois's death you lack that dramatic climax(as Spengler rightly says in the commentary)
Supes II had an epic climax(Metrolpolis fight)-not an emotional one(e.g Lois's death).
The only thing I can think of is that if Lois was killed(and to avoid time reversal) - Supes could have kissed her(kiss of life) rather like what happens in Matrix 1 + 2. But god knows----there was a lot of criticism of those 2 films with regards to that particular solution(especially the 2nd one ) :)I think there is a clip in the making of the 1st Matrix where Keanu Reeves is lambasting the Wachowskis for introducing the kiss that brings him back to life.
Time travel eh?! As Sarah Connor once said "God-think I could go crazy thinking about this!"
On edit I kinda forgot that Neo massages Trinity's heart in Reload-maybe that is what Supes could have done to Lois in STM
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 3:00:27 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
No worries!-to have experienced STM in 1978 had to have been even more incredible. I think I may have seen the trailer for STM on the Mary Poppins re-run in late 78' early 79'.
It is interesting in terms of how we calibrate the movie experience-in terms of age and other factors. I distinctly remember watching the Incredible Hulk TV series and then that Spiderman Movie(in the local cinema) just before watching the Supes double bill.
Don't get me wrong-I loved the Hulk and Spiderman stuff-now was that because I was 6 years old or because Hulk and Spiderman were well crafted TV/ episodes/flicks(especially for the time). Had I been older(say 25) at that moment in time(1981)-would I have seen through the shoddy effects work, cheap production budgets and script plot holes that were inherent in these TV flicks--in much the same way I can be critical of watching CGI laden flicks now-aged 41(hecko Man Of Steel et al -where the action dictates the story-rather than the story dictating the action.
But watching both STM and SII on that big screen and back to back-they were epic!(at least compared to what I had experienced until that point and age in my life)-and ultimately I would say-a very emotionally satisfying one(Time reversals and memory wiping kisses and all!)
I would actually go back to watch Supes II in 1982 in a one off showing at our local arts cinema. The place was packed(mostly with adults) and I will always remember the applause when Supes arrives on the DP ledge to challenge Zod--same thing happened on the double bill a year or so before(even though I remember the crowd being sparse-I could just here the echoey clapping of the few people in attendance-lol)---so it had to have resonated with audiences for that moment in time.
I agree about the liberty to have opinions -there may be indeed no right or wrong-there is only opinion-and memories-ideally good ones--and when it comes to the 1st two Supes films-I have plenty of those!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2015 1:16:32 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
I understand your frustration with the Lester stuff.
It is interesting that you were sceptical at the time that SII came out( I live in the UK--SII came out in 1981 over here)
I have been through the whole gamut of feelings myself.
I was blown away when I saw STM(never saw it 1978/79) and SII on a double bill in 81(aged 7):
also watched The Amazing Spiderman"-the dragons challenge" a week or 2 before
-so obviously the Superman films were in a different league!
At the time I preferred Supes II but ultimately loved both flicks-
Watching them back to back for the first time at the time - I personally think the emotional weight attached to how both films resolved their respective dramas was measured correctly for those moments in time(late 70's-early 80's).
Gotta remember this was in era before sophisticated time-travel paradoxes (pre-Back To The Future) and non-linear editing(Memento!),stylized fighting(Matrix) and CGI infested battles(Lord Of The Rings + The Star Wars prequels)
I remember being completely gobsmacked that Lois had been killed in the earthquake-I think I remember actually turning to my pop seated next to me and asking "what is Supes gonna do now?!!"-I think as a 1st time viewing experience-those few minutes when Lois was actually dead were pretty harrowing and superbly unexpected! -- the rest as they say is history!
The only thing I found disappointing with SII on that 1st viewing is that it came to an end- I did not want it to end!
It was only when I found out the history of the production when I found this site in 2001 that I became critical of SII to the point of almost not being able to watch it.
Ironically it was the release of the Donner cut in 2006 that made me re-appreciate Lester's work.
Reeve and Kidder had a natural chemistry-Donner discovered it ,initiated it and nurtured it but Lester honed it. I think the evidence for that is in SIV where Reeve and Kidder's organic affection for each other seems a bit stilted by the shoddy direction of Furie-Indeed it is only their innate ability to play off one another that holds it together for those ("non SPFX scenes) in SIV.
When you consider the little screen time that O' Toole had with Reeve(as Clark) in SIII-yet the relationship between them still came off as seeming natural-I think you can appreciate how good Lester was as a director of "implied" romantic scenes-well this is my opinion anyway !
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 11, 2015 0:23:16 GMT -5
Hmmm
I honestly think that the time reversal solution only works when it is used once.
In 1978-had they gone with the original scripted ending with Superman saving Lois before she is killed in STM then the time reversal solution would have been effective in resolving Superman II.
having said that:
The emotional layers that Selutron has added to add weight to the reason for another time reversal are good. IMHO if Donner had implemented such a scenario in 1979 then I think he would have had to have re-shot the Daily Planet exchange(or maybe add a pick up shot-insert) between Clark and Lois to make it match better with this extra emotional weight that Selutron has proposed.(Clark's brief pause when Lois says "Your really super" is not enough.)
Compare that to the soulful look Supe's gives to Lois just by staring through the car window just after he has reversed time in STM-that one look encapsulates everything Supes has just done to bring the woman he loves back to life!-it is a sweet moment with just the right tone to not make it seem morbid -no need for dialogue but the look is enough to make the audience accept and emotionally comprehend what has just happened-be they kids(I know-I was was one of them!) or adults.
Whatever the controversy regarding Lester's kiss-I always felt that the emotional resonance of that scene was executed perfectly to fit the rest of Lester's narrative for SII. Lois looked like she had been through a dramatic last couple of days(discovering the identity of Supes, falling in love with him-then being involved in watching an epic confrontation-and subsequently realizing that falling in love with Supes was never going to work)-Lester understood this-effectively creating a sub character arc for Lois in Superman II-it is subtle-but it is there.
The way Donner shot that original final DP exchange between Lois and Clark-it seems to rob(or negate) everything that Lois has been through in the preceding 2 hours of the film. Now I know that is the intended effect-everyone is blissfully unaware due to the time reversal effect after all--- but that final DP scene needed something extra in terms of how Clark reacts to what has happened.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 9, 2015 13:49:17 GMT -5
@crazy_asian_man
there is this brief Q&A from 2010 regarding what Donner thought of Singer's film.
"I mean I thought Bryan Singer did a wonderful job with the other film (Superman Returns). You could just do massive action and blow up stuff, but he chose to do the characters more, although he had some beautiful stuff in there." www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/joshw24/news/?a=24539
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 3, 2015 11:55:00 GMT -5
and here are the thoughts of Sarah Douglas and Valerie Perrine regarding Man Of Steel:
(apologies if this has been posted before)
Sarah Douglas:
I have to be honest in that I enjoyed the 1st half and I did not particularly enjoy the 2nd half. I felt like I was in a video game and it was all wham wham wham and it was all a bit too much and I really love Henry- I thought he was the hottest thing since sliced bread -thank you very much - however Christopher Reeve is still my Superman
Valerie Perrine:
I hated it!! (audience laughter) I hated everything about it-1st of all I fell asleep-and then all I saw was SFX and smashing into buildings-there was no story going on -there was no sympathy between characters-there was no character build up-it was just SFX and slam bam thank you mam.
Sarah Douglas: I have to say I really miss the humor- this new movie -I know the kids love it and a lot of people enjoyed but it is a different generation
watch more:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ixgS2qm3AQ
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 3, 2015 11:37:56 GMT -5
Thought I would add a basic transcript( I think I have heard it correctly but feel free to amend/correct me if you hear it differently) of what Donner said regarding Man Of Steel:
Presenter: Have you seen Man Of Steel-can you give me a sentence-thought about it?
Donner: (Man Of Steel)--It is different!
(audience laughter/applause)
Donner: It is a good picture----Superman is an American classic-- I don't think he is brutal and kills people-I don't think he is angry and mean(applause)
It(or His?) imagery is wrong---he is a great film maker and a great producer-they did a great job but for me personally I miss who he(Superman) was and who he is and I don't think that image should be destroyed
(applause)
Presenter: thank you
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 2, 2015 17:28:42 GMT -5
hecko
Long time lurker and finally a member !
Thought I would post this video of Donner commenting on Man Of Steel:
vimeo.com/78223919
Goto the 27:00 min mark in video.
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