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Post by dejan on May 20, 2023 17:38:59 GMT -5
No worries CAM - back at ya buddy - enjoy having this conversation too.
I actually brought up the Kidder factor as I came across this docu linked below: Maybe you have seen it, but if not, enjoy!(or not, because it touches on her personal troubles).
What is also revealing in this docu, is the fact that Mank and Margot were an item during the production of STM. I don't think that was something that was well known.
That's cool and absolutely fine, but as I said before, she cannot be trusted to be impartial when it comes to analysing what's good and bad in a comparison between the productions under Lester and Donner. I mean, she was always going to side with Mank!
In the 1981 TIME magazine expose' of the behind scenes travails, Kidder says: "Lester was under tremendous pressure arriving on set and he did a good job".
Bare in mind that in the same article, Kidder did not hold back when it came to describing the Salks: "I have nothing but contempt for them!"
So if she hated Lester, I think she would have said it.
There is another interview that Margot also did in 1981, to the Rolling Stone magazine where she claimed that she liked STM and SII for different reasons:
Something else to note, as disclosed in that documentary...Kidder,after the success of STM and SII , prided herself on taking on projects that were small/art house/indie like productions which ironically should have made her more closer to Lester in terms of artistic affinity(that's the scene where Lester cut his teeth throughout the entire 1960s).
In terms of Kidder's perfomance in Lester's parts of SII, as discussed in other threads, we pretty much disagree in how that panned out!
That's cool.
I will say that even though I am still missing quite a few of Lester's (and Donner's) works as I write this, he did work on romantic themes within some relatively profound contexts, in The Knack & How To Get It(but in a very oblique way), The Bed Sitting Room(in a darkly ironic and satirical way) and in Robin & Marian(in a traditional yet melancholic way). Romance is also a driving force behind Cuba too.
And then there's Petulia(excellent chemistry between Julie Christie and George C Scott, who Lester says was the best actor he ever worked with).
And of course, there is SII. So he did have a pedigree in that area.
As far as SIII is concerned, that's a script issue as opposed to a directorial one(although seeing as Lester was probably indirectly involved with said script means that he is still guilty....just in a different way).
IMHO, within their own context, the actual scenes with O' Tool and Reeve are very well recited, restrained yet heartfelt. It's just the script did not use that chemistry as a place to go somewhere.....hey, why not have Webster kidnap Lana and make something of it......or have Lana be the reason why the schism between Clark and Supes occurs(as opposed to the synthesized Kryptonite).
Because I have still not seen Assassins,Maverick,Timeline or 16 Blocks...and most importantly Inside Moves, maybe I should refrain from dissing Donner's romantic chops......but from everything that I have seen within what I would call his peak period(1976-1989).....it's not neccessarily his forte' (as much as I love Ladyhawke and the romantic stuff in STM notwithstanding). Maybe Inside Moves will make me change my mind on that one.
But these are mere nitpicks for me....I still love Donner 's stuff!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 19, 2023 17:05:48 GMT -5
@cam Regarding Mank's thoughts on Lester: It's interesting having just reaquainted myself with all 4 Lethal Weapons back to back and having enjoyed them a lot. I went onto Wiki to refresh and in some cases familiarise myself with Lethal's back story and how Shane Black departed the franchise during/after part 2 claiming that he did not like the direction the series was going in: From the Wiki page for LW2 en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethal_Weapon_2So, despite there being differences with the Supes series, it's still like a role reversal of sorts , where this time it's Donner who is accused of compromising the original artistic intentions ,but of the scriptwriter, as opposed to another director(as was the case with Supes). It's a long shot, but could Donner himself given into some overindulgences, and corrupted SII, even if he had been allowed to finish and continue the franchise! Given what happened with LW, it's not impossible(although unlikely). As I said a few times before, being without Barry,Unsworth,Bowie and Brando would have forced Donner to make alterations to whatever he did to finish SII, had he been allowed too. Also, Margot was going through personal problems.....and seeing as she was Mank's ex by the time of resuming SII, maybe that could have been a problem on set for Donner and Mank, had they been there.Just a possibility......and Margot was reknowned for being volatile. Also: To be fair Donner's version of comedy is kinda more straight ahead in your face, prank type humor. So don't get me wrong.....I could not help but crack up in LW2 ,when Glover goes back to his desk to find it saturated with condoms! But that's Donner's take on getting laughs. Even in the world of comedy there are different interpretations.
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Post by dejan on May 19, 2023 11:39:03 GMT -5
A SUPER (see what I did there? ) comedy I had seen in repeats on tv when I was SUPER young was "It's a Mad mad world" that seemed epic- but funny as heck at the time, with superstars, and filled with madcap moments with what felt like a zillion characters all around the world. In revisiting it recently- and thinking of the Lester extended cut- was "Mad mad World" stuck in his head? While there's sections of SII by Donner intended to be comedic (Primarily Lex)- his emphasis was the romance and superheroics. The villains were as serious as Lex was supposed to be comedic (but true to his own world view). I don't know how many here would enjoy "It's a Mad mad world", but it is a bit of a classic..... and remind you a bit of the Lester scenes in SIII and SII- which, as you all know, I didn't care for at all in the half-done SII by Donner. (It didn't bother me so much for SIII as it was all Lester from start to finish). Anyhow, if curious- here's a trailer: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sla845GW9YMAh yes. Definitely a classic. First saw this in the early 80s on TV here in the UK. Loved it. Still do...so much so that I got the Blu Ray a couple of years back. Watch it at least once a year, or certainly every couple of years. My mum claims to have seen it on it's original theatrical release....although being Italian, she saw the dubbed version. Odd for my mum, as she was into all the serious European Art Cinema stuff(Pasolini,Antonioni ect) in that period....although the message of Mad Mad World has always resonated.....that people go beserk or do anything just so they can lay their hands on some doe! As you said Lester was a cynic, so that undelying message of Mad Mad was straight up Lester's street. The irony is that Stanley Kramer, the director Of Mad Mad, was reknowned for making serious social drama , commentary stuff. Off the top of my head , I am not all that familiar with his other work, but Mad Mad was apparently , a radical departure for him. But he pulled it off. Having a who's who of the American(and even British) comedy world probably helped. They just don't make stuff like this anymore. I mean it's epic!.....shot in 70mm with a real wide aspect ratio an all'. IMHO, as to whether Lester was influenced directly by it......it's definitely a possibilty. The straight ahead slapstick of SIII's opening in particular could even be a tiny homage to Mad Mad. The funniest Lester film ,IMHO(that I have seen at least), is Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum from 1966. There is a link to Mad Mad because Forum has Phil Silvers as a debased Roman "procurer". I think this movie is a riot.....there is slapstick but Lester also has ironic, almost sarcastic humor....which can get overshadowed by the straight ahead site gags. So in How I Won The War from 1967.....John Lennon(who plays the part of a disgruntled soldier) quips that he used to be a British fascist.....to which his commander played by Michael Hordern responds: "Yes, I used to be a fascist too but we can't all change the world". That for me represents Lester's best humor....but it if you blink you will miss it. You had it in SIII too, when Webster says: "To think that Columbia can dictate the economy of a open market!" Again it's a brilliantly ironic line that got a bit submerged by the guy getting the pie in his face and all that other stuff with Prior.
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Post by dejan on May 14, 2023 9:55:07 GMT -5
CAM wrote: Ahh Sad to hear that Ladyhawke played to empty houses. And very envious that you got to see it on the big screen.
Very much enjoyed the Blu Ray(last viewing was on VHS somewhere in the early 90s) and agree with what you said; slightly slow start, but picks up speed, with a good emotional core to keep the audience engaged. Cinematography is outstanding, but it's no surprise when one checks out the name;Vittorio Storaro....he was Bertolucci's right hand man for the Last Tango and The Conformist, both excellent films - Last Tango has a performance from Brando which for me personally, was his best performance of the 70s(i.e better than Supes ,The Godfather or Apocalypse). Checking the wiki page I did not realise how many American movies Storaro has done.....Apocalypse Now,Reds and D. Tracy!....unusual for an art house -European based cinematographer.
Linking Lester to Donner, the flight coreographer for Ladyhawke was the same guy who did The Muskys and Robin & Marian. And I agree with you that ladyHawke is his most convincing work.....although The Muskys has a kind of high paced ,kinetic type of fighting.....Ladyhawke and Robin & Marian are more in the "chess match" mould.
Also, Leo McKern, who has a nice role here as the wise old man guiding the young fellow through his paces.....is also in Help!....there, he plays the Indian Cultist chasing after the Beatles.
In fact having watched Help! and The Goonies in such close proximity, I would say they are weird mirror reflections of each other.
Both have Maguffins. Both are a touch absurdist and comedic and are not to be taken seriously. They feature an ensemble of young people. Both are stylised.
Both have the imprints of another artist: The opening to The Goonies has a very Spielbergian touch to it.......Help! has songs from The Beatles!
Weird!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 14, 2023 5:00:29 GMT -5
Does one of those prominent filmakers include non other than Martin Scorsese? In the inside sleeve for the 2013 Blu Ray of Help!, Scorese highlights The Beatles flicks,The Knack & How To Get It, How I Won The War and most significantly, Petulia, as being an integral part of experimental 1960s cinema. He places Lester alongside Fellini,Resnais,Goddard,Truffeaut and Antonioni, in terms of breaking new ground with the film making medium, blending surrealism with neorealism in varing degrees, jump cutting, non linear structures, hand held tracking shots, ambigous narratives , the newly found use of color ect , ect. Quite frankly,IMHO, the European New Wave was simply on a different plane to pretty much anything the Brits or Americans were doing at that time. Indeed, a new generation of filmakers(Coppola,Scorsese,Lucas,Spielberg,DePalma) StateSide, were heavily influenced by this revolution. Lucas's worst performing flick commercially speaking, THX 1138, was not only his most experimental movie,but also the film that was most highly influenced by this New Wave. And who does Lucas cite as his cinematic hero? Fellini. Lester is also in there somewhere too. And from an artistic standpoint, I'll take American Graffitti or THX over the Phantom Menace and maybe even Star Wars itself, any day of the week! David Lean(who was a friend of Lester) claimed that Petulia was like an artistic vindication for filmakers in general. In 1967 ,Orson Welles, no less, said that of the new generation of American filmakers, Lester and Kubrik were his 2 personal favourites! You can't get higher praise than that. I don't recall either Welles,Lean or Scorsese , saying anything about Donner(who was roughly the same age as Lester), at any point. So, all I am saying is that Lester's work(outside of The Beatles and The Muskateers and even Supes) has been appreciated by some of the foremost filmmaking talents of the post war period. scorcese, the bitter director who said comic book films (so this apparently includes stm and the dark knight) aren’t cinema? Also there is higher praise Lester could have gotten than Wells- from crazy Asian man, and I already gave it for 3 musketeers. hehe Check out Donner's response to Scorsese regarding those anti-marvel statements!
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Post by dejan on May 13, 2023 9:29:47 GMT -5
We can’t say Bill Cosby here? lol! Was it auto-correct? hehe No that was me just being me! My spelling is not the best when it comes to names! I usually go over my posts and try to correct any initial grammar/spelling mistakes......but I still miss em' and that was one of em'! Even here in the UK, used to love that Cosby show back in the early 80s.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 13, 2023 9:05:20 GMT -5
Mankiewicz’s unwillingness to return out of loyalty to Donner is what led them to return to the original Newmans rewrite. As we’re learning (again) with the ongoing writers strike, movie productions need writers to realize scenes that the producers and directors want to see. Donner brought in Mankiewicz, despite his initial protests and reluctance to do script rewrites, instead of the original writers because Donner knew that he could realize the verisimilitude vision he had with the material based on Mankiewicz’s work on James Bond, which was the appropriate franchise to scale this production to. Lester didn’t feel that strongly and didn’t pursue Mankiewicz’s involvement other than just accepting his decline and moving on to other ready material that seemed to be satisfactory for all parties involved. If you compare the Mankiewicz screenplay to the first film to the final film, you’ll notice a lot of differences that would have been detrimental if they were included. For instance, there would wouldn’t have been any emotional resonance in Clark’s goodbye to his mother if we would have seen him cut the entire wheat crop at super speed before he left. Another big one would have been when Superman manages to save Lois from being buried and the joke of the scene is Superman apologizes for the car’s damage and she says it’s a rental. Differences like those don’t make me believe that Mankiewicz’s script is an absolute testament as to what they would have delivered to us if they stayed on. This is a major contentment I have with the Richard Donner Cut. Thau just cut it together following that screenplay and left little to no imagination in regard that II could not be treated as the second part because the changed ending of the first film made it self contained. The Lester reshoots rightfully changed the narrative so that we don’t open immediately with the Daily Planet’s coverage of Luthor’s bomb scheme, which makes it seem like Luthor spent just one night in jail. The time between the first and second allows a bit of breathing room and helps the sequel stand more on its own two feet. The Donner Cut is not capable of doing that. Nice synopsis there,Kamdan. IMHO, the timing of the moratorium imposed on SII during the original production schedule was key. In retrospect, it was the signal that Donner was going to be fired no matter what. There was just enough of some of the expensive set pieces from SII already in the can(moon and White House scenes) which the Salks could use as a springboard/fulcrum to complete the rest of the picture without having to rebuild from scratch. Donner's slagging off of Spengler in the press(whilst even justified) was the last straw....or if I am being cynical.....maybe even induced(i.e the Salks provoked Donner into making public insults), which they could then utilise as the reason for his subsequent firing, without ultimately, too much sympathy from the outside world at large. A false flag of sorts! According to Petrou, Donner "enthusiastically agreed" to the morotarium on SII. The fact that it was Lester who came up with the idea indicates to me that this is the smoking gun for an inside job. The guy who proposes the moratorium on SII.....is the same guy who gets the job to complete said film! And this guy was intimately associated with the production schedule........Lester knew how much was still needed for SII's completion, the moment that moratorium was announced. But if Donner had reflected for just a moment.....he must have realized that his own position was now very pracarious for SII. But perhaps he was so wrapped up on finishing STM.....that he was oblivious to the machinations of the Salks and Lester.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 13, 2023 8:46:58 GMT -5
I’ve theorized about why Donner held such hard feelings about Lester. When Lester arrived as the liaison between Donner and the Salkinds, everyone could see the writing on the wall that he was there to replace Donner. There must have been a conversation that occurred where Lester assured Donner that he had no interest in taking over and that let his defenses down to listen to his contributions that led to Lois’ death in the first film and the turning the world backwards sequence. Now, after Superman: The Movie grosses $300 million, Lester is able to cease an opportunity to helm the sequel that easily grossed over half of what the first one did. That is a big feather in Lester’s cap and is a natural choice due to his time spent working with Donner, who apparently didn’t catch the gist that he was fired due to his comments to the press. Donner may have also had false pretenses from Warners to make those statements once they saw what a good job he was doing with Superman that they wanted to buy out the Salkinds’ stake, who absolutely would not do that after the success of the first film. While Tom Mankiewicz was convinced that the Salkinds would have made Donner finish II if the first had flopped, I’m just as convinced that once Donner was told that Marlon Brando would have to be removed from the sequel, he would have quit and Lester would have taken over as well in that scenario. I’m also sure that Donner held a grudge against Christopher Reeve for not refusing to return for II and that led to his and Mankiewicz’s refusal to be involved with IV. They likely only made amends when Reeve had his accident. There was never an opportunity like for Donner and Lester to connect again so it was left unresolved. Can’t blame Lester for keeping to himself after all of these decades, especially after Donner blew him off on the potential of sharing director’s credit. Donner came out alright in the end of it all, by him having an office at Warners for his entire post-Superman while Lester never had a success that matched Superman II following its release. I think there's probably enough Hollywood people 'in the know' who worked on STM and SII to know who was the most responsible for STM (which laid the groundwork) and SII's success. It is telling that many prominent filmmakers have come out and praised Donner's work on STM for inpsiring their work... Lester I agree never had a success after directing inserts and reshoots for Donner's SII. While people don't hate Lester, I think he'll always be more well known for the Beatles' "Help" and I'll always adore his work on "Three Musketeers". Honestly, if he had tried to stick to Mank's original script for SII (outside of rewriting for Brando--- though I would have just recast and kept the original script)... I wouldn't have been fuming for decades at what he did. Even if shot cheaper, I would have preferred the original script and intent. Does one of those prominent filmakers include non other than Martin Scorsese? In the inside sleeve for the 2013 Blu Ray of Help!, Scorese highlights The Beatles flicks,The Knack & How To Get It, How I Won The War and most significantly, Petulia, as being an integral part of experimental 1960s cinema. He places Lester alongside Fellini,Resnais,Goddard,Truffeaut and Antonioni, in terms of breaking new ground with the film making medium, blending surrealism with neorealism in varing degrees, jump cutting, non linear structures, hand held tracking shots, ambigous narratives , the newly found use of color ect , ect. Quite frankly,IMHO, the European New Wave was simply on a different plane to pretty much anything the Brits or Americans were doing at that time. Indeed, a new generation of filmakers(Coppola,Scorsese,Lucas,Spielberg,DePalma) StateSide, were heavily influenced by this revolution. Lucas's worst performing flick commercially speaking, THX 1138, was not only his most experimental movie,but also the film that was most highly influenced by this New Wave. And who does Lucas cite as his cinematic hero? Fellini. Lester is also in there somewhere too. And from an artistic standpoint, I'll take American Graffitti or THX over the Phantom Menace and maybe even Star Wars itself, any day of the week! David Lean(who was a friend of Lester) claimed that Petulia was like an artistic vindication for filmakers in general. In 1967 ,Orson Welles, no less, said that of the new generation of American filmakers, Lester and Kubrik were his 2 personal favourites! You can't get higher praise than that. I don't recall either Welles,Lean or Scorsese , saying anything about Donner(who was roughly the same age as Lester), at any point. So, all I am saying is that Lester's work(outside of The Beatles and The Muskateers and even Supes) has been appreciated by some of the foremost filmmaking talents of the post war period.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 16:49:32 GMT -5
Yeah....the killing of Jimmy was unforgivable. Mind you ,on my first viewing (which was the theatrical version), I never knew that was Jimmy - I mean ,I guess it does not take a genius to work it out and the Directors Cut confirmed it anyways......but given the fact that Snyder knows jack s**t about characters expressing empathy for other characters.....it fell flat on it's face. Hey...poor old Jimmy just got whacked.....but Clark and Lois go for a romp in the bathtub! Real sensitive , that ol' Zack is - lol!
The dialogue is just stupid anyways:
Jimmy "You just exposed..........."
Lex's Military Contractor Head holds up GPS fragment:
"CIA!"
Also, the witness is giving testimony on Capitol Hill, implying that Supes wiped out all the local fighters......er jeez.....I never knew Supes carried guns to kill people! I mean Lex's guys blew those dudes away plain as day.....even Supes could have seen that one as he was flying down to save Lois in the first place!
Anyways I am overanalysing this thing but still , if morons like Snyder paid more to attention to scripts than to abs, these kinds of plot holes would have been less common.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 16:32:40 GMT -5
Metallo and CAM Regarding Highlander. I was actually one of those who saw the renegade version first, without realizing that the actual theatrical version was different! Still thought it was s**t, though! I have never seen the cleaned up 2004 version. But just like George's rehashing of Star Wars in 1997, at least the Highander stuff was re-imagined by people(be it in 1995 or 2004) who were involved with the original production. Superman II came out on laserdisc in 1996 with a then spanky new widescreen transfer(first time on home video). On release of that disc ,one of the reviewers commented on how it would have been cool if the original production staff could have updated Superman I & II's effects in line with what ILM was rumored to be doing with Star Wars at roughly the same time! I do often wonder if Lester and Donner had made peace with each other in the mid 90s.....and attempted a special edition of sorts for SII using 1990s CG tech and a decent budget, plus the availability of all the relevant actors(all still alive at the time).....how that would have turned out. My gut feeling is that whatever new footage they came up with, it would still have had a 1990s aesthetic feel to it. Also to CAM specifically: I am curious, which shots in the earthquake sequence from STM, are from The Swarm?! I never knew that.........that's why I love this place...get to learn somethin new everyday.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 14:20:59 GMT -5
Actually at a Collider Q&A a couple of years back.....one of the fans noticed changing hairstyles during certain scenes in Infinity War and made a point of emphasizing it to the Russos- lol
goto 1:40:41
One of the scenes in question: goto 1:45
Still took me a couple of views to spot it! lol!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 13:53:01 GMT -5
The horrible wig Lester put on Margot for the reshoots and inserts is a killer in the dp/metro battle even decades later…. Takes me out of the movie in those shots. A lot else might be forgiven, but … ugh. (Unnecessarily) Adding Leueen doesn’t seem to be a fan favorite for the metro battle either. at least Lester didn’t put fart gags in this sequence. I am not a fan of the wig either, but I am a fan of her better performance , which I think is ultimately far more important. Also ,there is that extreme close up of Margot's face as she stands next to the globe(another item which is also missing in the Donner footage - although this time, understandibly so), showing Australia, where I believe she actually looks quite beautiful. And her performance,IMHO, is top notch: "yeah....better than anybody". But anyways.....the 2 times that Zod delivers the pop culture line in the flick, are from both directors: 1)At the White House(Donner) "Now, kneel before Zod" 2)At The Daily Planet(Lester) "Come to me son of Jorel,kneel before Zod!" Great direction from Donner and Lester. Great performance by Stamp. Which makes a great final product, at least for me! Having gone through so many of both chap's respective works recently, the way I look at it is this way....Superman II was blessed to have the talents of 2 very gifted directors at the helm of one film. Don't think there are too many films that can say that, again IMHO. I am already aware of the counter argument but it's just another perspective.
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Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 3:08:38 GMT -5
Hi CAM
"The kneel before Zod" insert shot has to be Lester. If you see this clip from the theatrical when Perry tells Clark about the Paris terror threat, you'll notice the same Crosby portrait up on the wall that's behind Zod later on when he shouts the famous line:
Goto 00.0 and pause:
Good point about the continuity being a bit jarring. What's interesting is that there is a trophy underneath said portrait in Donner's stuff......and Lester went to all the trouble of putting a similar(or maybe the same?) trophy under that Crosby portrait!
Too be fair it's so quick that if one blinks, you'll miss it. These movies were made in the quasi pre home video era(or at least before home video became popular). Nobody in the cinema would have picked up on it ways back then. Heck, I've only just noticed it after nearly 40 years of repeadedly watching this movie!
On edit:
Just noticed that there is what appears to be a light switch underneath Donner's portrait, wheras said lightswitch is missing completely in Lester's version.
Goto 1:31:
So it's definitely Lester.
Would be curious to see Donner's original take for this line now, given it's significance! Having said that, the other Lester insert of Lois saying: "Superman!"(when supes arrives on flag pole) is ,IMHO, superior to Donner's original recital from Kidder of the same line(as seen in the Donner cut).
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Post by dejan on May 10, 2023 10:27:27 GMT -5
Tuned out with that misquoted “You will kneel before Zod!” I only just realized that when Zod shouts: "Come to me son of Jorel, kneel before Zod!" That it was a Lester insert shot. The give away is the Bing Crosby(ahem!) portrait behind him on the wall. goto 0:32: Donner's Daily Planet stuff had a different picture up(of either Crosby or somebody else ? - dunno) on that section of the wall. goto 1:53: Whilst I disagree with Bill Hunt's opinion of Superman II as a film.....I agree on his analysis regarding the quality of the picture on the new UHD. It looks amazing. Caps a Holic have now done side by side comparisons, and the extra clarity and depth to the image ,present on the UHD ,when compared with the decade old Blu ray, is like night and day. Obviously the old VHSs,Laserdiscs and DVDs did not stand a chance either. The superior color gamut too, which can only be seen on a DCI -P3 certified 4K flat panel or 4K projector(and not on a standard PC or laptop), also helps to elevate the quality of the film as whole.
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Post by dejan on May 5, 2023 17:26:04 GMT -5
Yeah.....we were conned......by Snyder!
No seriously....some interesting ideas on how things could have evolved. Thanks for the link.
Although.....I have still not seen Snyder's JL!
Would much rather watch the new UHD for Superman IV......and that's saying something!
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Post by dejan on May 5, 2023 17:10:45 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts there CAM.
I am going to nab those other Donner flicks that I have not yet seen, in the next 6 weeks or so.
I think of all of them, Inside Moves is the one I am most interested in seeing, because I think it represents Donner during the period where he was at his cinematic peak, artistically speaking.
If you really look at it: 1976 - 1989 Omen Supes Inside Moves The Toy LadyHawke Goonies Lethal Weapon 1 Scrooged Lethal Weapon 2
The Toy was a blip in terms of quality(hey, it happens to the best of em')!
As I said before, never saw what people(kids my age at the time, really) saw in The Goonies. Whilst it's no The Toy(in terms of being a debacle), I think more could have been done with it, but at the same time it's still a jolly little ride.
I was 11 in 85', but I don't recall ever hearing about LadyHawke(maybe I hung out in the wrong circles- lol!). But would much rather have seen that in the cinema, that year, than The Goonies!
But everything else in that time range(76' to 89') has a lot of class and artistic integrity. Salt N' Peppa was made in 1968 and is Donner's second film after 1961's X1. X1 is available on DVD and someone has uploaded it to youtube. I have still not seen it. But my understanding was that X1 was essentially a pseudo documentary and as such, should not be considered a proper movie.
So to all intents and purposes, Salt N' Peppa is Donner's big feature debut. Ilya says he saw it retrospectively, in 1977(10 years after it's theatrical release),when Donner was recommended to him because of the success of The Omen. Ilya said that Salt N' Peppa was so so.......but it was really Donner's impressive TV resume and of course, The Omen, which they were sold on.
The rest is history!
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Post by dejan on May 4, 2023 16:49:13 GMT -5
I've kind of come to terms that most all of the fan cuts will never fulfill all my wishlists of how I'd want the 'ultimate' cut would be for SII with so much working against it (primarily lack of Donner footage actually shot and/or available)- but when I see even one fx shot or even one minor change that fits almost seamlessly in and enhances it- I feel it's already made it worth checking out. Having said that, I would have LOVED to have had the CGI talent of the guy who did "Superman vs Hulk" series to completely reconstruct the Metro battle as intended by Mank/Donner and/or the other couple of scenes that were essential that Donner couldn't shoot.. There's only one scene in S2 that needs CGI. It has to do with villains and the world. The problem has always been integration , when it comes to fan cuts and how they intertwine their ideas with the original work. To teach a CG artist in 2023 to have the "vision" of a filmaker/special FX fellow from the 1970s/1980s is almost nigh on impossible. Star Trek The Motion Picture : Director's Edition did do this to a degree....but there is stuff even in that, which is definitely not representative of the artistic feeling of 1970s FX. The extra panning shots Vger positively reek of post 2000s sensibilities. Not sure if you folks have seen this one for Star Wars: Don't get me wrong. It looks cool and I can definitely appreciate the effort. The problem is that it does not jive with the unaltered 1977 live action footage either side of the altered Obi-Vader fight sequence. Any work with Supes is going to face the same problems. Fan cutters just can't help themselves in their over indulgences. On Edit: Actually this one is a hoot - shows how fan cuts can alter stories too.......might test your knowledge on the newer stuff!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 2, 2023 11:34:13 GMT -5
atp ,Metallo and Kamdan Living in the UK, I was able to get the UHDs about 2 weeks back. I have missed off SIV, at least for the moment, although word is that it may be the best looking movie of the 4! Now that's a first! What has happened is essentially a complete inversion of what happened in 2001,where STM was given that splendid(for the time) digital makeover for the special edition, whilst the SII/SIII DVDs were derived from aged masters ported over from the Laserdisc era .....and it showed. Further rescans/newer masters struck in 2006(for DVD) and 2011(for Blu Ray) still treated SII,III and IV as the second class citizens of the pack. As it stands at the moment, it's now the other way round. STM is stuck with that 4K scan from 2018, which is still a nice master. But for whatever reason back then, they neglected to go all out and give it a vibrant, luminiscent edge. Whilst the image is more detailed than it's ever been, it's still kinda flat. This was noted at the time. What WB have done is given all that spit and polish(vibrant HDR and full 4K resolution) to SII,III and IV.....whilst leaving STM behind. So, IMHO, SII and III look better than they have ever looked on home video.Period. There were reports that even back in 1981, SII had a bleached out, fuzzy appearance, so those 35/70mm prints were never truly representative of how good these films could look. I saw it twice in 81' and 82' , but observing the quality of the picture was not foremost on my mind.....hey, it looked massive!....and that was good enough for me at the time....especially compared to the crummy TVs we all had back then! I have the VHSs(I even have the 1979 version for STM!),Laserdiscs(Pan & Scan and Widescreen),DVDs and Blus so am in a good position to make a comparison. Ofcourse this is all still subject to my personal bias aswell as my individual AV set up. Detail (often refered to as high frequency) on the UHDs is several layers above the corresponding Blus. The scene at the beginning of SII where reporters gather at the base of the Eiffel Tower is a good example of superior delination of high frequency detail , relative to the Blu.......so the cantilevers,girders and columns of the Tower's base look much sharper. I have 2 players(one for UHD, the other a standard Blu Ray)....and toggled between the 2 disks(2023 UHD,2011 Blu Ray) on my projector.....and the difference in sharpness was clearly discernible. Also, Supe's costume is almost too flashy(very striking red of the cape and shield in particular). Photos on laptops or PCs from internet forums won't do them justice because they are limited to the rec709 color spectrum.....hence missing out on the extra gamut afforded by DCI-P3 on the actual 4K Flat Panels or projector(in my case). Blacks are deep and inky....the best they have ever been IMHO. So WB knocked them out of the park. But they need to revisit STM pronto. Am happy to answer any questions. On edit: Realize I did not address the sound. It's a bit of a cop out but i have not even bothered with the Atmos tracks. I am not interested with revisionist soundtracks. Can't listen to Atmos anyway as i only have a standard 7.1 set up. But for what it's worth, the original 2.0 Dolby theatrical mixes sound better on these UHDs than either the 1982 Pan & Scan and 1996 Widescreen Laserdiscs and the 2001 DVDs. So that's another feather in the cap for these UHDs. But yeah, if you are an Atmos fan....then I gather there are some issues with how they have been rendered.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 20:29:43 GMT -5
How should I know.......I am still in high school
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 20:24:42 GMT -5
insert code here That's a fair review from Ollie(a fellow fan from Cambridge!). However...... I would like to know what device he is watching them on because if it's this one:
.....he is not going to get the full color gamut that DCI-P3 contains.....that in turn will influence what he sees on screen,color wise. To boot, that projector is not true 4K, resolution wise...it's what they call a faux K device! That was standard for a lot of projectors back then.
If that is the case then his review is almost worthless.
But that was 5 years ago , so maybe he has upgraded since.
I have a JVC NX9 which covers almost the entire DCI-P3 spectrum......only problem is it can't hit the nits for speculars that flat panels can. But thanks to tone mapping....it gives a good representation of HDR nonetheless.
Still, the UHDs for SII & III look phenomenal.
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 14:42:04 GMT -5
So as it stands:
Donner films I have never seen:
Assassins Maverick Inside Moves Timeline 16 Blocks Salt n' Peppa
Lester films I have never seen:
The Ritz Royal Flash It's Trad Dad Mouse On The Moon Finders Keepers Return Of The Muskateers
Best Non Supes Donner film that I have seen:
Lethal Weapon 2/Ladyhawke (used to think it was the Omen)
Worst Non Supes Donner film that I have seen. The Toy
Best Non Supes Lester film that I have seen: Petulia(but need to see it again.....is available on DVD.....but this needs to be seen in Blu Ray/UHD).
Worst Non Supes Lester film that I have seen: Butch and Sundance: The Early Years
Looking to make my way into some of those movies I have never seen later on in the early summer......the Donner ones are easier.....as they are available on Blu Ray, but will need to import from the US through Ebay. Anything that was available in the UK....I have already acquired. Most of Lester's work from the 60s is available on BFI(British Film Institute)....dedicated to Art House Cinema....so was very easy for me to scoop those up.
And again for Lester , Mouse On The Moon, It's Trad, Dad are still only available on VHS/Laserdisc(his very early 60s work). The Ritz is available on DVD.....but want my first time watch to be on Blu. Royal Flash is available on Blu......but there must be some demand for this one.....as prices are a touch extortionate!
So will grab some of the ones on Blu that I have not seen, in a couple of weeks.
On Edit:
Ok...so just found out that It's Trad,Dad!......just got released on Blu Ray back in Febuary- lol This film predates A Hard Days Night.....so I am curious to see it. Will add it to the pile............but goddam.....they need to release Petulia on Blu!
Also just seen that Mouse On The Moon is available on Amazon Prime, which I do have.....but I hate streaming through my projector....image does not hold up....compression issues and such forth.....want to give all flicks I have never seen a fair shake .....and that means either Blu or UHD presentations through a disk based format. Streaming has someways to go still.
Salt N' Peppa is available on Blu too......would be curious to see this...as it represents Donner's second film from the 60s.
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 14:05:31 GMT -5
@cam
Interesting that you say Gibson was unknown because I actually had seen him in a film called Gallipolli in 1986(again on VHS), during a History class at school!
The film came out in 1981, so was already a couple of years old by the point we watched it in that History class......but that was my personal introduction to Gibson. Of course most knew him from the Mad Max series. I never got to see those until the late 80s,again on VHS. Miss those days.......now you can just pop on you tube and see anything. You had to work much harder to discover stuff back then.
Remember seeing the Quads and even the trailers on TV for Lethal Weapon 1 in 1987 , and recognizing him from the Gallipoli flick- lol
I had a school friend who was basically an action movie nut......so all that stuff from the mid to late 80s(Running Man,Cobra,Rambo 1 & 2 ,Over The Top,Commando,Terminator,Lethal Weapon 1,Die Hard 1 ,Total Recall ect ect......he would get on VHS courtesy of his parents 6 months to a year after their theatrical releases......and we would consume them that way as we were still underage for seeing them in the cinema lol!
But Gibson is on record as saying that Donner salvaged his career in the mid 80s with LW1, as he felt he was drifting at the time.
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 13:49:59 GMT -5
I never saw Monsignor. Any good? I wasn’t that impressed with it. Great story idea but sloppy execution which is too bad considering some of the talent involved. Yes. Reeve said that the editing and footage not used in the final cut contributed to a sub par product. To be honest , it does not look like there is any interest from cinefiles for a recut, which is a shame. But said recut could breath new life into this flick. As is, it's still head and shoulders above SIV! Only available on DVD still(which I have). Be nice to see on Blu ray.....as there is still some great cinematography which might benefit from the extra resolution.
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Post by dejan on Apr 23, 2023 14:38:54 GMT -5
atpThanks for sharing your thoughts. What about that building demolition at the beginning of 3?! Pretty spectacular! But I get your angle. Also, as much as I like Russo, in some ways she reminds me of Hathway in Dark Knight Rises.....she kicks a** without ever giving the impression that she really can actually kick a**(at least in my view). But nice to see her here(I kinda forgot she was in LW 3 & 4!)......given her more recent outings as Thor's mum. But yeah.....if I have to be a bit critical of the LW series, then I would say the heavies don't always deliver. As much as I enjoyed the final fight on Glover's lawn between Gibson and Busey at the end of LW1....it never did make much sense to me. Busey is surrounded by cops!.....I mean what's he gonna do...get the satisfaction of kicking Gibsons a**?!.....and then what?....this was a special ops guy running heroin into the good ol US of A....and he is now reduced to fighting a rival on a lawn surrounded by umpteen cops! lol! Still entertaining as heck though.
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Post by dejan on Apr 23, 2023 7:48:17 GMT -5
I ended up watching LW 3 & 4 again, for the first time in a while.
BTW, if anyone is seeking to get these on Bluray.....avoid the 2006 pressings(for LWs 1 & 2) which apparently were riddled with jaggies and other ghastly digital artefacts , something that was inherent to very early Blu releases. The set to get is the one that was eventually released in 2012, here in the UK(so folks in the US can simply import via Amazon or Ebay), where all 4 films come in one neat package , with LWs 1 & 2 having a newly minted remasters , sans all the digital garbage that affected those 2006 pressings.
As for LWs 3 & 4, having now fully re-aquainted myself with all 4 flicks in the very best quality possible(last viewings were on DVD over a decade ago.....and even then I did not see them in quick succession):
I'll go against the grain and say that I prefer 4 to 3! Jet Lee's martial arts stuff is simply the best fight choreography in the entire franchise, IMHO. Clever story telling from Donner too , essentially keeping Gibson and Lee apart until the final showdown( minus that quick encounter in Murtaugh's house half way through), in a manner not dissimilar to SII, where the villains square off against Supes in the last quarter.
So all told, my personal list would be, from best to worst(they are all pretty good though!): LW 2,1,4,3.
Although going from memory, with those VHS/TV broadcasts/DVD viewings, I rated them in the 1,2,3,4 order. So these Blu ray screenings have modified my preferences somewhat. The picture quality for LW4 is exceptionally good BTW.
I was too young to see LW 1 in the cinema back in 87'(12 at the time - I was stuck with Short Circuit and Flight Of The Navigator and er......SIV - lol!), and would eventually see it on VHS in 1989/1990. In fact, I saw LW2 in the cinema , before seeing LW1 on VHS! Which may explain that whilst thinking LW2 was pretty good on that 1989 theatrical viewing.....my appreciation for it was somewhat dimmed because I had not yet got the backstory /exposition from LW1.
Anyways, compared to all the other stuff that came out in that year of sequels and blockbusting(1989).....I would say LW2 was vastly superior(i.e Batman- overhyped, Last Crusade -too sentimental, Back To The Future 2 - overstuffed , Ghostbusters 2 - too drab, Star Trek V - just goddam aweful that even SIV seemed half decent by comparison lol! ).
If i had to be critical.....especially in LWs 2,3 & 4....Glover and Gibson probably spend more time shouting at eachother than talking. In fact, having also recently watched Scrooged.....I noticed that Murray spends quite a bit of time screaming too(much more than ineither Stripes or Ghostbusters).
I don't think I would have noticed this had I not watched all these movies in such close proximity to eachother. So Donner's approach to comedy was......more shouting = more laughter- lol.
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