Superman Returns+Donner footage- or - NOTHING?

[crazy_asian_man]

Since the movie has taken a more X-men like approach, we all know that there are extreme reactions to the movie that keep getting thrown out there.

Curious how deep those feelings run. If we didn't have the Singer Superman Returns, we would not have had (most likely) no studio push to clear the Brando footage & make that possible for the RDC or possible for the world to see in almost any form.

If so..... for the SR lovers, it doesn't matter (but certainly doesn't hurt) that SR made Donner footage available for SII.

But.... for the SR haters, I'm curious- if not going with SR's existence meant we might never have had (most likely) a chance to ever see the Donner footage.... if it really was 'both or nothing' (which seems likely if nobody else considered were going to fight to use Brando as Jor-el again)--- would you have rather that SR not existed, taking the availability of the Donner footage with it?

[ye5man]

I think you'd have to be spiteful/retarded to vote #2

Is there anyone on this forum that actually hates it? I think maybe Gandy is the only one

[crazy_asian_man]

I think you'd have to be spiteful/retarded to vote #2

Is there anyone on this forum that actually hates it? I think maybe Gandy is the only one

Well.... it's not impossible. One of my best friends HATES it because of the 'son' element, and was so underwhelmed by the Donner footage I know he would have been willing to have had a reboot and sacrifice being able to see the Donner stuff--- he might vote that it's better to not have had SR even with RDC.

Since it's one of the 'package deals' that seems to have been likely- (Doubt that Ratner nor McG would have reused Brando, but...)- I'm just curious how many numbers would feel the same as him. For some, it's worth the sacrifice, but not worth it to everybody, so I'm mainly curious about where people stand on the issue, with neither side being 'wrong' per se.

[Matt in the Hat]

That's a convoluted statement. There were people wanting donner's footage for years. And it took a lot of years of campaigning to get it presented to us. To say its all because of SR disregards all of the fans that were dedicated to finding out more of the films. like Supes Cinema and Superman Web Central among many others. It would've happened eventually either way.

[crazy_asian_man]

That's a convoluted statement. There were people wanting donner's footage for years. And it took a lot of years of campaigning to get it presented to us. To say its all because of SR disregards all of the fans that were dedicated to finding out more of the films. like Supes Cinema and Superman Web Central among many others. It would've happened eventually either way.

It's not IMPOSSIBLE that the Donner footage would have come out EVENTUALLY with the petitions and campaigns without SINGER... (Though I'm skeptical given how long WB takes for any Superman stuff to happen)--- but the probability is up in the air and of course debatable-

BUT...I'm not saying that SR ALONE made it happen. If I suggested it, I apologize to all who were offended by it. I definitely am not dissing on the petitions- My signature is on the petitions (at least the ones I was aware of) as well, and I was arguing on Aintitcoolnews for the longest time that petitions were worth trying for, in the Donner case as well.... so, if I were to disregard any of the fans that were arguing to get Donner footage out, I'd be disregarding myself, too, Matt. So, that's not what was intended.

Just that it seems pretty likely that SR's needing clearance of the Brando footage as well ($$$) probably cleared the way right ($$$wise) THEN AND THERE in 2006/7. Would Ratner or McG's versions have used Brando? If so.... then I would have put their names up in the poll, if history had been different.

Admittedly-

It is speculation--- but the probability seems so high that SR's inclusion of Brando helped make it happen THEN rather than an ambiguous later date-((If it would eventually happen--- how long is 'eventually'? Another 10-20 years? Who knows for sure?))--- that prompted my query that IF SR was indeed the tipping factor for now- was it worth it?

(And there seems little arguement that the inclusion of Brando in SR PROBABLY helped... hard to see how it could hurt, given how long the project was in limbo over 'legal issues')

That's all. Again, no disregarding intended.

[supes78]

I think it's safe to say that 2006 would not have been WB's Year of Superman had it not been for SR. I can't think of another year when so much Superman merchandise, especially DVDs, were released. That massive 14-disc set was a huge tie-in to SR. Now, the Donner Cut I think would have eventually seen the light of day even without SR. But I do think SR spurred WB into finally releasing that when they did. I don't know why studios feel that most fans won't buy DVDs of classic movies and TV shows unless there's a tie-in to some big budget movie.

[TylerDurden389]

Because it all boils down to dollars bills basically. It is a business after all. I don't agree with it, but that's how it is. I do wish however, that studios were open towards doing smaller runs on movies and maybe re-releasing them in small amounts for the die hard fans.

I believe that, considering what we fans have done, clamoring for the Donner footage and all, had SR not been made, WB could have AT LEAST put up a small amount of money they knew they could get back by targeting us fans directly and producing maybe a few thousand dvds of what we want.

Didn't the guys who re-released and remastered the Superman soundtrack sets do something similar to that?

[atp]

Why is everyone talking as though the Donner Brando footage was actually good?

[HOSNI]

Nov 30, 2009 3:18:05 GMT -5 atp said:

Why is everyone talking as though the Donner Brando footage was actually good?

Curious...you didn't like Brando's performance or how the extra footage was assembled and presented?

[atp]

Nov 30, 2009 3:41:53 GMT -5 HOSNI said:

Nov 30, 2009 3:18:05 GMT -5 atp said:

Why is everyone talking as though the Donner Brando footage was actually good?

Curious...you didn't like Brando's performance or how the extra footage was assembled and presented?

Both.

With the exception of *some* of the repowering stuff, I thought Brando's performances were disappointing.

Certainly not living up to the hype and expectations.

[crazy_asian_man]

With the exception of *some* of the repowering stuff, I thought Brando's performances were disappointing.
Certainly not living up to the hype and expectations.

If nothing else, the RDC I think shows just how important Stuart Baird's contribution was to the Superman series.

I liked the Brando stuff, but the editing just kills so much of it at times. Reeve and Brando's communication in the first exchange I thought was ok, but the 'death' scene felt very disjointed...almost like performances from two different movies were cut together.
((edit:*also, I imagined that Brando would have played the death scene angrier and louder, based on the script))

Would have been nice if there had been a bonus bonus disc with all the different takes by Brando and Reeve for those scenes so that we could discern for ourselves whether or not the best takes chosen. If these were really the only takes that were in a condition that were usable, I get there's not much else to say about it.... but then again, even Donner mentioned that he would have brought Brando back for reshoots--- so...(ironically) sometimes I think that the RDC just created a lot more questions than answers about what Donner was able to shoot and how the vision would have looked.

[TylerDurden389]

CAM took the words right outta my mouth. But if there's anything I can add it's this: With a little (or a lot of) editing, the de-powering and re-powering scenes CAN be made into something a little more pleasing. Though for most of us it would be based on personal tastes. I think what CAM did with the re-powering scene with the "Somewhere in Time" footage was spectacular, as well as having Jor-el give a final speech (even if it is a rehash from part 1). The de-powering scene I must've seen at least 10 different takes on it by now and his is one of the best.

The only things I'll do different for mine is:

1) Lower Reeve's voice in pitch so it sounds more sincere and "Superman-ish" like he does when he talks in part 1, and I may do the same for Brando. I got the idea from Darthlongi's edit of the scene that's he has on youtube. It was only the frame rate slowed down but it worked. It gave the scene as a whole a lot more "weight".

2.) Remove "Selfish? After all I've done for them? Will there ever be a time that I've served enough?". I've seen a few edits that removed these lines and I think it works better.

3) Remove the shot of Reeve lowering his head after Brando raises his (before he says "Is there no way then father?"). Reeve already lowered his head before when he said "No, I cannot.", so doing it twice doen't work for me.

4) Use "I love her" line from Lester Cut. Personal preference.

5) Remove that painfully long shot of Reeve just looking at Jor-el before entering the chamber.

6) Use shots of Reeve in chamber from "making of" footage, and from Lester Cut. I don't wanna see the double from the DC at all.

[Deleted]

I like Superman Returns more than anything in the Donner Cut.

[ye5man]

So did I Kev - at least it was coherant

If nothing else, the RDC I think shows just how important Stuart Baird's contribution was to the Superman series.

YES! (and that point goes towards SR also)

[supes78]

I kind of saw the Donner Cut as one long deleted scene as opposed to a full fledged movie that was going to be coherent. heck, Donner never finished the film so it was clear that the best we would get was a reasonable facsimile. Fan expectations were so high that no amount of money that WB would have thrown into the project would have lived up to the hype. Not to mention Donner doing some guerrilla marketing himself for the past few decades about how his vision of SII was so superior. I'm glad it came out though because it satisfies a lot of curiosity and shows us some alternate takes on familiar scenes.

[Jimbo]

Nov 30, 2009 16:09:52 GMT -5 ye5man said:

If nothing else, the RDC I think shows just how important Stuart Baird's contribution was to the Superman series.

YES! (and that point goes towards SR also)

All you have to do is watch the KCOP cut to see Baird's contribution. It's hard to believe Donner shot so much extraneous footage. Especially since the movie went so over-budget.

[ye5man]

Excellent point Jim, and I agree whole heartedly.

I can never understand when people prefer the longest cut - just for the most amount of footage. One only needs to specifically looks at the KCOP, 2000 and theaterical STM to appreciate perfect editing.

Cutting out some Brando scenes for example, for the good of the contained end result took balls and the film flows better as a result.

One thing though: Supes trying to stop the missile

[crazy_asian_man]

I kind of saw the Donner Cut as one long deleted scene as opposed to a full fledged movie that was going to be coherent. heck, Donner never finished the film so it was clear that the best we would get was a reasonable facsimile. Fan expectations were so high that no amount of money that WB would have thrown into the project would have lived up to the hype.

I think that's the frustration.... that possibly enough of the raw materials may have been there to make it enough of a masterpiece, but that it got botched. That's the key question.

Especially given the notion (according to Salkinds) that Donner was known for shooting a LOT of extra footage. If so... couldn't there have been a lot more green screen shots available for a superior battle sequence? Or stronger performances in some parts?

Other dvds give a boatload of alternate takes/etc.
Pity that more of the original footage wasn't shared so that we'd know conclusively---

Was the best of the best usable footage REALLY used?
Or was just bad judgement used?
Or simply not enough time/money allowed to do a good job?

Anyhow, I know I've gone in circles and circles over this...
If only SOMEONE could make these extra takes/footage from the Donner time available on dvd.....*sigh*...

[crazy_asian_man]

All you have to do is watch the KCOP cut to see Baird's contribution. It's hard to believe Donner shot so much extraneous footage. Especially since the movie went so over-budget.

It's always hard to know who's got the facts correct with Donner/Salkind:

Donner said he was always kept in the dark about the budget...so it was hard not to go overbudget and get quality.

Salkinds say Donner was always overshooting stuff....

So was overshooting inevitable by being kept in the dark or was Donner being excessive by not shooting faster and cheaper? I guess there'll always be two folks in the world adamant about their position on that set... but the results of Donner=STM results of Salkind/Lester=S3.

So, there's that....

More extra stuff than other films? Hard to say. I was shocked at how much extra unused stuff was shot for "Close Encounters of the Third Kind" as well.

[crazy_asian_man]

Excellent point Jim, and I agree whole heartedly.

I can never understand when people prefer the longest cut - just for the most amount of footage. One only needs to specifically looks at the KCOP, 2000 and theaterical STM to appreciate perfect editing.

Cutting out some Brando scenes for example, for the good of the contained end result took balls and the film flows better as a result.

One thing though: Supes trying to stop the missile

For me, it's supply/demand, when it comes to wanting to watch the longest cut of SII or STM now and then.

There are/were so few films with Reeve as Superman (4 is not a lot imo, coulda been more), that scraps of footage with him by any director is something that is enjoyed.

Especially Donner footage of Reeve & the cast--- it's getting far better, but initially it was pretty rare when ANY comic book had gotten a good movie adaptation, so to have a studio support a project like that, to have the right director, cast, etc. is something that doesn't seem to happen every day. (Although, thankfully, a LITTLE more common nowadays...)

Thus- the reason why I enjoy long cuts of these films now and then...!

[atp]

Nov 30, 2009 19:09:51 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

[If only SOMEONE could make these extra takes/footage from the Donner time available on dvd.....*sigh*...

We should ask Mr Thau to do it please.

[crazy_asian_man]

We should ask Mr Thau to do it please.

If he had the power to get all the extra takes released on dvd for the public, then it would either get Thau off the hook or REALLY establish whether we've given him too much flak for the RDC, or if he really did the best job possible, given what he had to work with.

Ah well...

[atp]

Couldn't he create the extra takes he needs?

[MAVERICK]

;D

[Jor-L5150]

Nov 30, 2009 18:34:49 GMT -5 ye5man said:

Excellent point Jim, and I agree whole heartedly.

I can never understand when people prefer the longest cut - just for the most amount of footage. One only needs to specifically looks at the KCOP, 2000 and theaterical STM to appreciate perfect editing.

Cutting out some Brando scenes for example, for the good of the contained end result took balls and the film flows better as a result.

One thing though: Supes trying to stop the missile

you are correct, but i enjoy th elong version from time to time for its sheer indulgance. plus- it is fascinating to explore films that have different versions and story material.

Nov 30, 2009 18:20:30 GMT -5 Jimbo said:

All you have to do is watch the KCOP cut to see Baird's contribution. It's hard to believe Donner shot so much extraneous footage. Especially since the movie went so over-budget.

...watch your mouth young man.