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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 23, 2011 18:29:18 GMT -5
I think I might not have been clear- ideally I WANT the next Superman movie to be outstanding--- and be so great that it wipes out any memory or pain of losing out on SR 2. But- if I think it's terrible, then it's a mixed bag: (1) the failure could lead to waiting until it's done right --- like how "Batman and Robin" - led eventually to "Batman Begins".... or ... (2) the failure could send the franchise into limbo again for another 30 years under WB. It was interesting to see the Supes documentary where WB offered Superman BACK to Donner after SIII failed --- so long after the fact. So, it doesn't seem probable, but not impossible that WB goes back and asks Singer to guide production (like Xmen First Class) of another Superman if MOS does ten times worse than SR did. And-- it's not impossible that Superman stays in limbo again for decades if it fails, too.... so, yeah, it's a mixed bag. I'll let you know how I feel depending on my reaction to Snyder's film.   What capsule description do you prefer for your reaction to SR? I didn't put down that you HATED it, so maybe I should have just put down that enough of it didn't click for you (I mentioned before that I did understand that if Bosworth didn't work at all for you, half of the movie really couldn't work for you- and the love triangle is at the core of the film) - anyhow, if you'd like, I'll say that you 'didn't care for' SR in the future if that's more accurate? |
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Oct 23, 2011 19:18:36 GMT -5
TBH I have no opinion of SR. Its leaves me feeling empty.
I neither like or dislike it.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if this movie fails. Maybe Karma for WB for the years of waste throughout about 15 years. Hope it never happens. Superman needs to be pop culture again the way Spidey was a decade ago then Bond in Casino Royale and then Nolan's Batman.
Another SR would be a disaster for the character.
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botz1
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Post by botz1 on Oct 23, 2011 19:38:57 GMT -5
Not for nothing, IMO the pics alone from MOS is better then SR..
Ill take these 3 NOLAN..SYNDER..GOYER
than this mess SINGER..DOUGHERTY..HARRIS
ANYDAY........Have trust in the big 3
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 23, 2011 19:50:37 GMT -5
Nolans the one to trust in there. Take the other two away and you got a good chance for crap. We "trusted" Goyer on Blade III and look what we got.
I can't believe I'm saying this a lot of Norrington's ideas really helped Blade just as much as Goyers. When he initially wrote Blade III he couldn't even keep the very cannon he created straight. Same with Blade The Series.
And Snyder...well...Sucker Punch...nuff said.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 23, 2011 20:03:56 GMT -5
Well, as I said, it's all preference.
Snyder and Goyer have had enough BAD films/tv that would EASILY make me pick the Singer-Dougherty-Harris team over Nolan-Snyder-Goyer.
If you were to say Nolan-Zemeckis-Aaron Sorkin, that might be a different story....
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 23, 2011 20:09:47 GMT -5
Superman is beyond movies. As long as comics exist in some form, he'll be around. But--- how much will he be changed to 'please today's masses'? Who knows. How much will he be changed to avoid paying the Siegel heirs? Who knows. But too much material exists for him not to be a recognizable icon, just waiting for another creative team to tackle him in one form or another. Now- if you're talking MOVIES--- WB has kept him in the Phantom Zone before, so, no, it's not impossible that it be a few more decades before we see anything else, if it tanks. On the other hand, maybe we'll get a reboot on CW for "Lois and Clark" if it does? (But then again, wasn't that what "Smallville" ended up being?) |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2011 20:24:16 GMT -5
If they did a Lois and Clark show with Durance and Welling, I'd watch it every fucking week and probably love the shit out of it.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 23, 2011 20:31:18 GMT -5
Wellings not doing anything else. Might as well ride being typecast to fuck all the way to the bank. Somebody tell him he might actually have the wear the whole suit this time.  |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Oct 24, 2011 8:15:56 GMT -5
If he wears the suit and there's no more moping, then yes, I also would watch the shit out of it. The few "flash forward" moments they did to the Daily Planet in the future where Superman is established and stuff were all great. But I seriously don't think I could stand one more minute of "I guess I'm just not the hero that everybody thinks I am. I wish Jor-El would have told me he loved me instead of trying to make me into something I'm not."
I recently watched all of L&C Season One and it's so much more enjoyable than Smallville at it's best that it's not even a competition.
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Oct 24, 2011 8:42:08 GMT -5
Would you want Lex as president? Maybe have him elected as season 1 finale so we get the best of both worlds.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 24, 2011 9:17:33 GMT -5
I'm tired of the President Luthor thing. It was fun...ten years ago. Bush ain't even in office anymore so the wells run kind of dry. If they want to do something fresh with Luthor take some inspiration from JLU. best take on Lex Luthor ever cause it drew from every incarnation. We got Lex as president, Lex as mad scientist, Lex as fugitive on the run, etc. Just don't make Luthor an alien CIA agent. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 24, 2011 11:05:52 GMT -5
I hear you and echo that.
I REALLY enjoyed Smallville..... in the beginning. When it actually seemed like it was going to build into story arcs that would pay off, and make for deeper characters and situations.
Then, time after time, when it started to seem like buildups for big things would just fall apart or just go back to where things started from in the beginning, I didn't care anymore. It transformed from being a really great fresh take on the Superman story to a typical soap opera- with things never evolving on anything but a superficial level. Pity.
With L&C, they're also guilty of it (and it destroyed the show) when they did the bit with Lois' amnesia/the awful clone thing, when they took dumb aspects of their own story too seriously.
But- at its best, L&C is more watchable imo because (for most of it) it actually follows through with some interesting ideas and takes on the story, definitely carried by the charm of the two leads.
If you were able to blend the best that both Smallville and L&C had to offer, though, I think you'd have an AWESOME Superman show.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 24, 2011 11:22:57 GMT -5
I'm still waiting for THE great defining 'ultimate' Supes/Lex story that screams out to be told in any format. Morrison said in an interview that Lex represents every bad thing about human beings rolled into one- but, oddly, for a great villain, Lex's pettiness imo kind of limits him--- As it was put in the Superman "All-Star" comics, Lex could have created the cure for all of humanity's ills anytime...... if he really wanted to.
Lex seems to be primarily a representative of all humanity, that has to be 'put in his place' time and time again by Superman (the wise God). With comics, I know he'll never be killed off, and HAS to have this endless cycle of battle with Supes, but at times I almost wish there were there was an equivalent of "The Dark Knight Returns" for Superman ("Whatever happened to the man of tomorrow?" seems to be the closest equivalent) where a great writer would- like Frank Miller did for TDKR- create the final battle would be for Lex/Superman---- and really get to the heart of that conflict, and what would be the payoff for that, after decades.
Assuming that there might be one. Maybe Alan Moore's story is as good as it can get. (Not to knock Moore's story, I love his story, but I was thinking more of a mano y mano with Supes and Lex)
(*Having said that, I hear amazing things about Paul Cornell's run with Luthor in the comics, but haven't had time/money to buy them. But that's supposedly mainly JUST about Lex, not Supes and Lex.)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 24, 2011 13:46:56 GMT -5
As good as Rosenbaum was the sometimes shity show around him let him down. For years we just got repeated forced allusions to Lex's future but he had the Midas touch. JLU distilled down everything that was fascinating about the Luthor character and put it in there. They gave the perfect explaintion for exactly why he is the man he is and why he does the things he does. On a pure character writing level they kicked Smallvilles ass on that front.
Smallville had a better overall serious tone and moments than Lois & Clark but Lois & Clarks first season was more consistently strong than any season of Smallville ever produced. The problem with Smallville is that all it ever had was great moments. It could never sustain that level of quality for long periods of time. Both shows had some EPIC bullshit at times though.
L&C often looked kind of cheap while Smallville looked pretty good during some seasons but by the end you could tell the budget took a serious hit for whatever reason. We were getting those same laughable homemade costumes we saw on Lois & Clark or the JLA tv pilot. I'd stack Frank Gorshin's Riddler three piece suit, Craig's Batgirl costume, Christopher's Superboy outfit, or Shipps Flash suit up against anything L&C ever produced as far as a superhero outfit.
I could understand Superman's outfit looking low rent cause his mom made it but why did The New Krypton outfits, Deathstroke, and Vixen all look just as fucking cheap?
Smallville had the better Kents but L&C had the better Perry White, Jimmy Olsen. John Schneider still doesn't get enough credit as Jonathan Kent. Eddie Jones was just awful. He displayed none of the wisdom or strength of character that the character needed.
Lois Lanes might be a dead heat though Hatcher was better in the first season than Durance was during her first year of Smallville. Hatcher could be annoying as heck though.
Phylis Coates, Margot Kidder, and Dana Delany's performances should always be part of the blueprint for Lois Lane going forward because on some level they all nailed it.
If Smallville's good episodes had been condensed down to four seasons it would easily kick Lois & Clark's ass.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 24, 2011 16:11:55 GMT -5
I keep on saying: if it were a MINISERIES instead, it could have been incredible.....but with what people have been telling me about the series' finale.... maybe not.  |
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botz1
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Post by botz1 on Oct 24, 2011 18:10:14 GMT -5
If he wears the suit and there's no more moping, then yes, I also would watch the shit out of it. The few "flash forward" moments they did to the Daily Planet in the future where Superman is established and stuff were all great. But I seriously don't think I could stand one more minute of "I guess I'm just not the hero that everybody thinks I am. I wish Jor-El would have told me he loved me instead of trying to make me into something I'm not." I recently watched all of L&C Season One and it's so much more enjoyable than Smallville at it's best that it's not even a competition. I disagree..Their were some great episodes in smallville, ones that gave me goose bumps. I cant ever recall L&C doing that to me.. Smallvilles worst episode matches L&C's best episode any day....Cain was a horrible superman, horrible... imo.. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 24, 2011 18:54:09 GMT -5
At least Dean Cain had a pair and was willing to wear the whole suit. "horrible" Superman vs cropped screen Superman? I wouldn't be shocked if Welling's career goes worse than Cains ever did. And when Cain fought a bad guy on Lois & Clark they at least tried and it lasted more than a minute. On Smallville when they got to the big superfight to start/end the season if you yawned or scratched your nuts you missed the whole damn "fight." |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 24, 2011 22:26:09 GMT -5
I agree that there ARE some great episodes in its run that would give me chills as well for its quality when they DO nail it. The odd thing is, the best of L&C attacks it from the other end of the spectrum.... when it hits, it lines up with the material faithfully--- but while Smallville attacks it from a semi-tragic point of view, and the pains of the journey towards becoming a hero, L&C hits it from a whole other angle and is more character based, showing the likeability of the characters and the fairy tale aspect of it (when its on its high points).
Off the top of my head, one memorable moment from Smallville is the tail end of an episode, where Lex is with his dad, who has treated him horribly, and looks over in contrast to Clark with his parents- and gives a feeling that had Lex been with the Kents instead, he would have become a whole other person.
In contrast, one of my favorite bits from L&C is when both Lois and Clark talk at a gathering (first season) about what powers they wish they had in character- and the dialogue from it is very charming and telling on what it suggests about the characters- a scene that I don't recall ever being in the comics, but was a fresh and interesting moment.
Nice to think that the whole Superman mythos is big enough to have shows that can tackle it from both ends of the spectrum. With L&C, most everyone seems to agree here that season one feels the best, but with Smallville, my own feeling is that the show's identity and what it's target was, was never really defined well enough.
I keep pointing to Gough and Miller's comments at the convention saying that they never felt like it was their responsibility to bridge the gap between answering questions like how everyone's viewing of Clark without the glasses ends up with no one knowing who Superman is eventually when he becomes the man of steel.
Very odd, but I'm curious enough to eventually listen to all the commentaries that Gough/Miller might have for the series to see just what the heck went on during their tenure.
But--- in any case, I think even though L&C strayed from their course, that their goals were a bit clearer. It was a comedy-romance set in Superman's universe.
With Smallville- it SHOULD have been about the interesting journey from teen to becoming Superman, but I don't know if they really stayed with that enough. (Others who've seen ALL the episodes could probably answer that more clearly, but from what I've seen- and I've seen them off/on for the series--- they keep seeming to go back to square one, with little real change except for what seems to happen 'off camera').
Anyhow..... what I'm really curious about, is if there's EVER going to be another tv Superman series, and how well thought out that will be, in comparison to prior shows.....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 24, 2011 22:36:15 GMT -5
I agree CAM. As awful as L&C got it at least tried to stick to telling the story of the romance between Clark and Lois asa romance/adventure/comedy.
The story of Clarks joruney got muddled and took deours on Smallville.
Lana, magic caves, A whole sh**load of cheesy superhero guest appearances, Kryptofreaks, etc. got to be overdone. Sometimes getting Clark from point a to point B in his life got lost in there.
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botz1
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Post by botz1 on Oct 26, 2011 18:22:23 GMT -5
"quot; S . On Smallville when they got to the big superfight to start/end the season if you yawned or scratched your nuts you missed the whole damn "fight." hahaha you got me on that one |
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Shane
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Post by Shane on Oct 29, 2011 23:25:18 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 30, 2011 14:25:41 GMT -5
Seems someone the press really has it in for Singer. With Rottentomatoes giving 76% critics to SR, 77% to Thor, and 79% to Captain America, it's in good standing, but the article says flat out that critics and fans rejected it. Pfft! Typical of Fox to print flat out inaccuracies and lies. Wonder if the fact that it's a WB film affects this at all..... Plus, if you listen to the short audio, it's a BIG stretch to go from what Brandon said to "Routh said story flaws did in Superman".  |
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Post by stargazer01 on Nov 10, 2011 11:52:50 GMT -5
Interesting, they showed the movie in Spain last Sunday night, and there was a lot of bitching about it on twitter that it even became a trending topic. It still got great ratings and was (by almost nothing) the second most watched film not only of the day but of the whole week.  They called it the film of the week. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 10, 2011 12:37:08 GMT -5
It's a pity that WB/Singer didn't take a gamble and make it a two-parter side by side, like Lord of the Rings (sortof)--- an action-packed sequel that was pushed out there for SR I think would have made those who disliked SR re-evaluate their opinions of that one as a 'setup' film of sorts. (SR I love, but still feel like it was a setup film- Singer even said that it was, to a degree.)
Oh well.....
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Post by stargazer01 on Dec 2, 2011 15:58:17 GMT -5
They are showing the Superman films on SKY, a new Christmas channel they say? Not sure how is called, but I saw several tweets talking about it today. And according to this tweet below, it sounds like they are showing SR right after Supes 2.. welbymcroberts Welby McRoberts
Sky Showcase seems to be showing Superman this evening, followed by Superman II then Superman Returns then Superman III and Superman 4 |
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They called it the film of the week.