|
|
Post by Matt in the Hat on Dec 16, 2009 2:58:30 GMT -5
Seriously, it's the most real, painful way to have done it. No magic wand or deals with the devil. That shit took away from the character rather than added. Makes me wanna RAGE.
Agree?
|
|
ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
Posts: 10,095
|
Post by ShogunLogan on Dec 16, 2009 7:10:29 GMT -5
No.
That would close the book on any reconciliation. But if they did get divorced and got back together years later, that would be really lame.
I think Amazing is really good right now.
|
|
|
|
Post by zarius on Dec 16, 2009 9:20:18 GMT -5
Peter and MJ would never reallisticly divorce. That's not who they are as characters. If anything, wanting that to occur says more about disrespectful and defeatist fans are about the characters and proves they don't really read the stories, stories which make it incredibly clear Peter and MJ will always support one another.
These are the same issues that the idiots at Marvel didnt bother reading when they began to destroy the characters in 1999. This was because Bob Harris wanted to kill MJ off, fans urinated all over that, then he stepped down, then MJ came back when Quesada took control.
Their equally uncharacterstic seperation only occured because JMS wanted to establish things with the Spider-Totem as well as Peter's new job and Aunt May "finding out" who he was, and didnt want to juggle too many characters off the bat.
Joe Quesada is married himself and thus has no desire to glamorize divorce, especially with two flagship icons who would reallisticly never do that.
Another reason he did it was to bring more attention to Spider-Girl, Tom DeFalco's long running MC2-based title which focuses more on Peter and Mary Jane's daughter Mayday and not Peter. It's a far superior title to ASM, and represents a more evolved form of the marraige, where Peter and MJ are parents coping with issues likes adopted siblings, their own daughter's life, and thier baby son Benjy, as well as Peter's crimeology job and handicap.
ASM sucks at the moment. Nobody is in-character at all. If that's the price paid to keep those characters relevant, fans ought to reeaxmine why they like them, because this ISNT true Spider-Man and it never will be.
Besides, Marvel really havent gotten rid of the marraige in regards to publication. They still publish several titles (albiet "out-of-continuity") which focus on it, and Stan Lee retconned BND in his newspaper strip (the co-creator prefering the two married should speak volumes about what the PROPER direction for the characters ought to be)
Amazing Spider-Man is garbage right now. It's been garbage, boring, angsty behind-the-times drivel since 1999. Not even JMS could save it, heck he made it worse by angsting it up a notch further. Now you get dumbass moments like Felica turning into a "friend with benefits", Flash back to being his usual obnoxious self despising Peter, in addtion to being as a bitter Iraq vet with no legs, Aunt May (who has been completly irrelevant to the title since the 1990s), marrying a gary stu like Jay Jameson, an MJ that doesnt even resemble her original character, a Harry Osborn that doesnt even resemble his original character, and Peter taking several steps back in characterisation...as well as not resembling his original character
Why anyone likes that garbage is beyond me...oh wait, nobody likes it, that's why the sales have plummeted
People have reconciled and remarried after several years in real life. heck, this happened to Pepper and Happy Hogan in Iron Man
You're only saying it's "lame" because you want things to be predictably angsty and boring, reather than have an upbeat and positive development with a nice moral lesson in loyalty and responsibility.
This moody garbage is becoming a cliche in comics. Spidey ought to be a breed apart from that and be more fun and upbeat.
Once Marvel finally realize BND has completly tanked, they can concentrate on writing PROPER Spider-Man stories about a responsible, married Peter and MJ instead of writing bad tributes to 1970s stories, only "modernised" and aimed at prepubescent five year olds trapped in thirty year old bodies
|
|
ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
Posts: 10,095
|
Post by ShogunLogan on Dec 16, 2009 9:49:43 GMT -5
ASM sucks at the moment. Nobody is in-character at all. If that's the price paid to keep those characters relevant, fans ought to reeaxmine why they like them, because this ISNT true Spider-Man and it never will be. I disagree. I've been reading since 1983 and have found the latest run quite enjoyable (surprisingly, actually). Sure, there are some aspects I don't care for (the DB) but it all works out in the end. I like the Black Cat back and the Deadpool issue was hilarious. Aunt May finding love (from an unlikely source) is simply a natural, evolving storyline. Amazing Spider-Man is garbage right now. It's been garbage, boring, angsty behind-the-times drivel since 1999. Not even JMS could save it, heck he made it worse by angsting it up a notch further. Now you get dumbass moments like Felica turning into a "friend with benefits", Flash back to being his usual obnoxious self despising Peter, in addtion to being as a bitter Iraq vet with no legs, Aunt May (who has been completly irrelevant to the title since the 1990s), marrying a gary stu like Jay Jameson, an MJ that doesnt even resemble her original character, a Harry Osborn that doesnt even resemble his original character, and Peter taking several steps back in characterisation...as well as not resembling his original character JMS was the worst for Spidey. It was decent writing but I found it completely out of place in the Spiderverse. But, regarding the other storylines...life is in constant change and I do not mind the progress they have taken. Face it, you can't have Peter in high school/college for 50 years. People evolve, stories progress. People have reconciled and remarried after several years in real life. heck, this happened to Pepper and Happy Hogan in Iron Man Great, you named 2 VERY minor characters. Not the stature of MJ and Peter. And I don't buy the 'it happens in real life' bs...it's very rare and just to say it happens in real life doesn't mean it has to happen in Spidey. Have Peter cheat on MJ...cheating happens in real life...why not? You're only saying it's "lame" because you want things to be predictably angsty and boring, reather than have an upbeat and positive development with a nice moral lesson in loyalty and responsibility. I'm pretty sure we've never met so I do not need you to tell me why I say something or what I want. Fact is, if they got a divorce, it would be "predictable" that they would inevitably get back together. My question is...you've hated Spidey since '99, why are you still reading it? |
|
ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
Posts: 10,095
|
Post by ShogunLogan on Dec 16, 2009 9:54:14 GMT -5
Really?!? It sells 60000-70000 copies a week. 3 issues a month and that is 180000-210000 copies a month. More than any other title.
|
|
|
|
Post by Matt in the Hat on Dec 16, 2009 19:14:34 GMT -5
The only reason i bring up divorce is that its something real that happens in real life. You can do stuff like splitting up stuff and money stuff etc. And its a real pain when someone is part of your life and immediately become your worst enemy. Plus Peter has been out of the dating world for quite a while. Trying to get back on his feet would be a daunting task after all those years, especially if he still had feelings for her.
|
|
|
|
Post by zarius on Dec 16, 2009 21:47:31 GMT -5
Really?!? It sells 60000-70000 copies a week. 3 issues a month and that is 180000-210000 copies a month. More than any other title. There's a lengthy argument about the validility of the sales figures on the Spider-Man Crawlspace message bords. Whenever you agree with them or not, the thread is worth a look. |
|
|
|
Post by zarius on Dec 16, 2009 22:29:09 GMT -5
An "unlikely source" is a Gary Stu who's clearly based off of the classic George Stacey mold...someone lovable, understanding , but doomed to die in order for May to turn on Spider-Man and prompt Peter never to tell her who he is again. BOOOORRRRIIIIIINGGGGGGI know May has fallen in love before, but her relationship to Nathan Lubensky, her longest in the comics, was slowly built up for years until he was killed off abruptly, which in turn led to May growing a spine during DeMatties' run. And, sorry, I don't see why you like Felicia turning into a bimbo who screws Spidey. Her relationship with Peter had evolved past that and now it doesnt amount to anything because she doesnt remember who he is, and doesnt have any obvious self-respect if she's having sex with masked men at her age, that's something she grew out of. I agree with this, but JMS still had respect for Peter and MJ's growth as characters. This is something the hacks on ASM do not have, nor do they wish to have because if they even attempt to bring some of that chartacterisation back, they risk restoring the continuity and belivability of characters who had grown and matured, and would no longer fit thier banal, childish developments. PROGRESS? ;D A deal with Mephisto ISNT "progress". Warping reality ISNT progress, regression of characters ISNT progress. Having Aunt May brought back from the dead twice now (once in 1999, and then in OMD/BND) rather than let her tired, boring character go ISNT progress. Keep denying it, but ASM has lost all of it's characterisation and TRUE progression and is nothing but a tribute to the silver age Bendis has kept Peter, MJ, Gwen and May in High School for ten years thus far in Ultimate Comics Spider-ManTry again. Besides, Steve Ditko's preference for the character was to make Spidey more like the Archie comics...static and unchanging, with relationships that go in circles. He never wanted The Green Goblin's identity revealed either. Stan Lee was the one who graduated Peter, Stan Lee was the one who unmasked The Green Goblin, Stan Lee was the one who married Peter and MJ first. Stan's opinion and preferences hold more weight than phony realitys and continutiys that cheat the reader and insult thier intelligence. It's been proven you CAN keep Peter and his friends in High School/College for fifty years, and Spidey remains distinctly vibrant and youthful, learning the right lessons and overcoming adversity WITHOUT bringing all of that adolescene beyond where it ought to be. Peter and MJ evolved by marrying one another. Peter and MJ evolved by conceiving a child, Peter and MJ evolved by coping with the loss of a child. Nothing about OMD and BND evolved those characters or progresses them. They are both out-of-character currently and that won't change until Quesada steps down. I gurantee you when you have an EIC that LIKES the marraige and LIKES Peter and MJ as parents in the mainstream continity, the marraige will return whenever you like it or not. Spider-Man used to have a degree of reality. If it's lost that, then it's not Spider-Man. You can deny it all you want, but it ISNT Spider-Man. They arent minor, I don't think any character that goes through something very uplifting and powerful like remarrying "minor". Every major, PROPER development in Marvel counts if it proves my point and proves you completly wrong Characters of the stature of Peter and MJ would never have had any problems to begin with It's not b.s, it's happened, I've been to two couples second weddings, so get off your high horse. Because that ISNT what Spider-Man is about. Do the words "power" and "responsibility" mean NOTHING to you? Does Uncle Ben's death mean NOTHING to you? Of course not, you've proven you have no respect for Peter Parker or Mary Jane, or the entire Spider-Man mythology, so long as you get to laugh at some crappy Deadpool joke or see Peter take advantage of an amnesia-stricken friend like Felicia for sex. Is THIS what Marvel's fanbase has come to? Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic. Mary Jane is the love of Peter's life, Peter would NEVER hurt her like that. FACT. I don't have to meet you, I know from your responses that you're perfectly fine with unmorallistic behaviour from characters and don't seem to respect the characters or the mythology. You think Spidey should be the same as every other generic uninteresting lonesome douchebag in the Marvel Universe. Meet? I'd rather not even reply to you again. Fans like you reward stupidity. Did I say I hated Spidey? No, I said I hated ASM. As in THE FLAGSHIP TITLE ASM isnt the end-all/be-all, I have several other Spider-Man titles to choose from which provide me with the proper characterisation and developments Peter and MJ would reallisticly go through, as well as characterisations that havent been seen before with the remainder of the supporting cast, but FIT who they are so it doesnt come off as a jarring develpment made for no reason other than to shock readers On occasion, I look at ASM to see if it's recovered in quality because I'm a true fan, If I suddenly started mouthing off ASM without reading it, I don't come off as objective do I? I've caught up largely by byrne-stealing (I read ASM in the store but I don't purchase it), but I don't pay a dime for that crap. I'm glad I don't have to, as it will NEVER recover for as long as Quesada is Editor...but the upswing to this is that his reign has also, in contrast, produced the best ALTERNATIVE Spider-Man comics, so there is still something for every fan, but ASM has not defined what Spidey is for a long, long time. The only reason i bring up divorce is that its something real that happens in real life. I understand why you brought it up, I'm simply telling you that it's not something the characters would do and that's why Quesada went with something out-of-character, and why BND has nothing but out-of-character behaviour thrown into it Last I checked, long-term marraiges between two best friends ARE also capable of happening in real life. |
|
|
|
Post by Valentine Smith on Dec 17, 2009 0:36:48 GMT -5
I dropped Spidey like a hot potato during JMS' run. I really couldn't believe the balls on that guy.
|
|
ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
Posts: 10,095
|
Post by ShogunLogan on Dec 17, 2009 8:08:21 GMT -5
Yeah...a title that has been cancelled and relaunched...with Peter living with Gwen (after dating Kitty Pryde) and working at a fast food restaurant. Kudos to Bendis for keeping this universe going...I gave up on it long ago.
The reason Stan unmasked GG was to keep readership, actually. Stan had sensed that Ditko was deciding to leave and Stan was afraid readership would drop so he came up with the storyline to hook readers even after Ditko left. Stan had even gone as far as testing Romita's Spiderman art with Daredevil 16 and 17 to prepare for Ditko's departure. Lee also introduced new villains (Rhino and Shocker) and finally revealed what MJ looked like shortly after Dikto's departure to ensure readership.
Stan Lee mentioned marrying MJ and Peter to Jim Shooter at a convention. Jim Shooter turned to the convention audience and asked their opinion and received shouts of approval. That's how that got started.
I don't see how I am on a high horse on that. I know things like that have happened. My point is...if MJ and Peter got divorced...it would be INEVITABLE that they remarried eventually. That, in itself, would be boring. The moment they divorced...there would be a timer as to when the remarriage would occur...maybe 3 years, maybe 5 years, but it WOULD happen. A divorce wouldn't be shocking since everyone knows they would remarry. And, in all honesty, we all know that somehow MJ and Peter will be back together. So call Mephisto's deal and unconventional divorce. I find it better than taking the Susan Lucci route (her character was married...what...16 times?).
And just because they happen (although I do find 2nd marriages stupid) doesn't give a green light that they should happen in Spidey. Such an arguement could be made about everything that occurs in the world, then. Hey! People cheat on their wives...let's put that in Spidey! Hey! People beat their wife, let's put that in Spidey! And so on.
But..but...things like that happen in real life!!!
Then stick to Archie comics. I find it interesting that unmorallistic characters are involved. I'm not saying ASM is the best comic out there, but it is an improvement on what has preceeded.
This I don't get. You don't like unmorallistic characters involved, you basically want the same thing over and over again (I gather this by your exclaimation that Peter CAN stay in school for 50 years...although that hasn't happened...and by stating you want the characters to stay within the mythology) yet you DON'T think that would be generic!?!? You want every issue that Spidey beat up some bad guy in the name of Ben Parker and for him to come home to his wife.
Back to some other questions I have...
You state sales have 'plummeted' for ASM citing because nobody likes it. Yet, your 'far-superior' Spider-Girl was cancelled AGAIN and reduced to a back up story in the newly formed (again) Web of Spider-Man. Citing sales as a measure of quality isn't the way to go when your 'superior' character's title was axed again (and now title-less).
And you mention ASM has been garbage since 1999. So, pre-1999 is better!?!? The days of Byrnes' Chapter One (which is basically ignored as canon SM continutity), the end of the Clone Saga!??!
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 18, 2009 12:14:08 GMT -5
Superhero comics that are also major corporate products (Spiderman, Superman, Batman, etc.) and have been around for awhile have interesting distinctions...
Should superhero comics have 'real' death that can't be undone?
Should superhero comics have 'real' (or graphic) violence with 'real' consequences?
Should superhero comics have superheroes that are imperfect and make mistakes with sometimes irreversable consequences (death of Uncle Ben)?
Should superhero comics have heroes that sometimes forget lessons and make bigger mistakes at times?
Depends on how you want your superhero served.
To me, an innocent fairy tale-ish character like Captain Marvel (Shazaam) was always designed to be innocent, and having that character marry/divorce/etc. would be just ridiculous imo from what the main appeal is of that character.
For Spiderman?
Spiderman was both innocent fairy tale under Lee/Ditko (Love how in the first appearance of the Sandman, Spiderman uses a VACUUM CLEANER to defeat the Sandman- not kidding!)-- AND something fresh and somewhat controversial that broke new ground for comic book heroes (Flaws? Real life problems that aren't solved easily? Spiderman under Stan Lee even had drug addiction, racial and economic problems addressed directly when it became Lee/Romita- before other comics thought at the time it was ok to deal with those issues)---
Having Spiderman's life stay within innocent parameters KIND of stays with the original Lee/Ditko...
Having Spiderman's life get grimy with gray shades to mirror real life ALSO kind of stays with the original Lee/Ditko model as well... (Having a superhero character actually deal with money issues was extremely original at that time)
In a way, the original Spiderman WAS 'Archie Comics' + 'Superhero comics' + something that takes risks by pushing the envelope.
Divorce would push the envelope, probably moreso than marriage. Does divorce mean that characters automatically become evil or forever stained with impurity? I guess it depends on one's idealism. I'm old enough to have friends that are divorced, that are decent people in real life and not 'evil'.
Now- would those grey shades ruin what Spiderman is as a character?
Would AGING Spiderman ruin Spiderman as a character?
Just as a portion thought that Superman's having a kid in SR ruined the story material for the films- (I didn't for my own tastes, but I can understand the viewpoint of those who do)- I could see how divorce could seem to ruin Spiderman as a character.
It's like violence in movies--- what's worse- (1) showing violence with no 'real' consequences- or (2) showing violence has 'real' consequences and dimensions ?
Depends on how you like your fantasy and how many gray shades it can have before it stops being enjoyable. So nobody is wrong per se, it's all taste.
For my own--- Me, if they were going to go with marriage in the first place to REALLY push the envelope artistically (and in comic book interviews with the writers in the U.K. book "Comic Creators on Spiderman" they say that they haven't pushed it) and undo it, time travel or deals with the devil feels like a giant cheat. I agree with Matt. Either go with the character living a realistic life or have Spiderman also make a deal with the devil to bring Ben Parker back to life.
To me, it goes with making the decision to try to go down a certain creative path with Spiderman and having courage to stay with that commitment. If Spiderman should never get divorced, BUT you also want the character free to date others, then my feeling is that he should never get married to begin with... poor planning if the creative team feels stuck and want an easy way out of the marriage.
For my own tastes--- Do or do not. But don't cheat the audience that has stuck with a certain direction by making it all a dream. (or a variation of).
But then again.... as I said.... it all depends on how you like your fantasy stories served.
No 'real' right or wrong...
|
|
|
|
Post by zarius on Dec 19, 2009 1:43:03 GMT -5
It's funny to note that every out-of-character portrayal has Captain Marvel commiting adultery or acting like a proper man-child...and ironicly, Mary Marvel's abuse of power and manipulation by Darksied during "Countdown" and "Final Crisis" would have fit D.C's preference for a villanous Captain Marvel better, but since they don't want to tarnish him in continuity, they decided it'd be easier to ruin her character
No, It wouldnt. Stan wants Peter and MJ married permanently because it's what the FANS want, and Stan's vision is the proper one. Joe Quesada agrees with it, because BOTH men are married and beleive in marraige.
Spider-Man is thier flagship character, MJ is an icon and probably the strongest female character in Marvel when handled properly. Quesada did what he did, in his own way, to spare fans of the marraige something that Peter and MJ reallisticly WOULDNT DO.
Only comic readers with defeatist attitudes want such boring, trivially angsty developments. It's not "pushing the envelope", because they already pushed it with Ant Man and Wasp, they've pushed that envelope with She-Hulk and John Jameson, and they even pushed the homewrecker envelope with Scott, Emma, and Jean in New X-Men.
I think it's much braver, much more refreshing, to have a stable marraige amongst the everyday chaos unfolding in the Marvel Universe. Why SHOULDNT that happen? Face it, the only people who have a problem with that are people who take marraige for granted or don't have a frickin' clue what it means.
Spider-Girl has already proven you can age Peter and MJ significantly and keep them as engaging, interesting characters by making them working parents raising three kids, one of whom is adopted and slightly volitile.
Peter having a handicap didnt even prevent him from becoming Spidey again several times in that series
The thing is, most comic fans and comic writers are fickle, boring emos who are angry at everything and want thier heroes to reflect their bitter, twisted views of not only society, but women.
They are afraid of positive change, there mysognistic and selfish. They want the characters to stay static, hostile, conflicted, and unchanging and that really doesnt do anything but make things worse, because when every comic looks alike...where's the diversity? Unless you look at alternate universes (or D.C Comics), that diversity in Marvel Comics has become non-existent
True, but that portion only think one way, and it's never "progressive", they want the same old s*it again and again.
SR might not have done everything right, but giving Clark a kid (albiet one out of wedlock, which is just as ballsier for him and Lois), was a great move.
Lois marrying someone else on the other hand, is what ruined the tone of the film more. I don't mind Richard, but Lois wouldnt do that, even if it was for her son's benefit and not hers.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 19, 2009 3:59:23 GMT -5
I have no problem with the characters staying happily married.
I have no problem with them getting divorced either.
But--- I'm not thrilled about retcon devices. Feels like a cheat.
That's all I'm sayin'.
|
|
ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
Posts: 10,095
|
Post by ShogunLogan on Dec 19, 2009 10:10:35 GMT -5
Actually, Stan's vision was to have Peter with Gwen Stacey. Although MJ and Peter dated a couple of times during Stan's run, Mr. Lee liked Gwen much more and made those two the item. MJ dated Harry Osborn instead (eventually breaking up with him leading to the drug issues). Stan Lee ALWAYS intended Gwen Stacey to be Peter's one true love (read Stan's biography "Excelsior"), even when the fans wanted MJ (Stan was furious when Gerry Conway killed Gwen).
Years later, Stan eventually wanted Peter and MJ to marry in the newstrip so it was editorially mandated that they marry in the comic (even though they weren't even dating in the comic). Quesada didn't like them married as he felt it aged the characters and made them less appealing to younger readers. He, in fact, was editor and artist of OMD which erased the marriage. Quesada did say that a divorce would have been worse (newsarama.com interview).
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 19, 2009 19:31:29 GMT -5
I have a great idea... How about this--- Have a solution for the dilemma--- BOTH Spiderman and MJ that got married are.... CLONES!!!! Yeah. That's the ticket. The real ones never got married in the first place. Those wacky clones.  |
|
ShogunLogan
New Member
If you shoot me, you're liable to lose a lot of those humanitarian awards.
Posts: 10,095
|
Post by ShogunLogan on Dec 19, 2009 23:17:32 GMT -5
Ya know...the deal with Mephisto did more than annul a marriage. Remember what was going on at the time...Spider-man had his 'iron armor' costume, he was an Avenger, Peter was living in the Avengers tower, he was married, and his secret identity was exposed to the world! All that is pretty much the complete opposite of 95% of Spiderman's history. No woman problems, no worrying about rent, no worrying about May (she moved in to the Tower as well), no worrying about the job at the Bugle (although JJJ's reaction I did find funny)....or any job for that matter.
|
|
