Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 18, 2020 19:12:35 GMT -5
I think if Terry Gilliam had made his Watchmen movie it would have been even less commercial than Snyder’s. I don’t think we ever would have gotten a movie that was made to sell happy meals but Snyder probably delivered a more bloody overtly violent movie since that’s his thing.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 18, 2020 20:54:01 GMT -5
Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion. Snyder got Watchmen made- and I give him credit for being a genuine fan of comics.... but his & Goyer's take on Superman was definitely not something that warmed the heart. Even when I felt like giving some latitude, the idea of having joy over wiping out Jimmy Olsen violently was just.... wow. At the same time- Snyder might have been fine with Batman instead. I do have to say that his Batman action sequence was fantastic in BvS and the best hand-to-hand action sequence of all the Batman films... Yea And therein lies the problem with Snyder...a great action sequence of Batman duffing up some expendable thugs(style) whilst the so-called washed up/burned out Wayne still had the cool aston martin driving it around like a suave James Bond.....hardly the sign of a washed up character(substance). Ok that's a bit harsh again...…whilst I personally liked Affleck's performance, I did not get the impression for one frame of that movie that his Batman(even less so his Wayne) was burned out....thereby robbing the story of one of it's potential dramatic arcs(and a dream/nightmare CG bat-monster bursting out of Martha's grave does not cut it). Also Snyder's Superman "save" sequences lack any dynamic gravitas. Pulling an overturned CG Ship(no people in frame), catching an malfunctioning CG Rocket(no people in frame), hovering aloof above a flooded CG landscape(ok at least there were some people in frame) exemplify that without any reaction shots from the saved victims and without any exposition of these victims before they are saved.... the scenes just fall flat. The saving of the girl from the fire at the Day Of The Dead festival actually is a nice shot but without even the slightest ounce of a build up or even the remotest exposition of the saved girl it just has a hollow feeling. Take Supe's saving the boy at Niagra falls in SII and the dynamic is totally different. Brief exposition of the boy on the railing disobeying his mum, Clark convincing the boy to again "be careful" and then the boys eventual fall. There are great reactions from Lois(and his parents) and the rest of the niagra crowd to the fact that the boy has fallen. Supe's then saves the little fella and again lovely reactions as Supe's lands with the crowd actually moving closer as he touches down. Also that sequence is real in terms of location work(sure there are opticals thrown in to) but it's simply on a different level of film making. All Snyder can do is show Supe's holding up a CG oil rig whilst focusing on his ripped abs. Says it all. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 18, 2020 21:00:25 GMT -5
Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion. Abrams is a mimic. He has no creative inner life of his own. We’ve seen it time and again. Snyder is more concerned about visuals than story. When it comes to storytelling he’s like Stevie Wonder walking across a freeway. Take away any guide for these guys to follow and they’re both lost. Lol Too bad they were given the keys to piss over the legacy of the 2 biggest franchises of the late 70s/ early 80s(Superman and Star Wars). |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 21, 2020 13:09:57 GMT -5
The problem I think is the interpretation Snyder has of Superman- as tortured soul - Singer also had that for a part of Superman, but at the same time- he had the optimistic Clark and Jimmy to show the hopeful humanity aspect.... whereas Snyder wanted to destroy Jimmy gleefully. Ugh. The studios had to have felt the Superman-totally dark wasn't working or reacting to online reaction for them to get Joss Whedon to restore the quippy more positive Supes.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 23, 2020 12:10:24 GMT -5
@cam
Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman.
Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire.
But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting.
The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked.
In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes.
He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax.
Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad.
Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow.
To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition .
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2020 15:48:35 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . I give Whedon a pass because he was playing 'script doctor' to something already shot- and... was also limited to NOT make it a three hour epic. (Which might have helped a number of things). I do recognize it's kind of weird that I defend Whedon for lightening up a director's original vision whereas I criticize Lester endlessly for doing that to Donner's vision.... |
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 23, 2020 17:05:40 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2020 19:28:20 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. If Whedon came in to touch up BvS, that might have been enough to right the ship--- but when I think of MOS with some of those unnecessarily disturbing scenes (Superman using his heat vision on Lois Lane? WTH?)-- You're right--- it's too little too late. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 24, 2020 5:57:17 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. Yes it was nice to hear that little tune.....although i still found it misplaced. That signature was used if Supe's saved someone on the Reeve flicks.....to use it in the middle of a punch up with the other DC crew did not seem right to me. Shows how these guys(be it Wheddon or Snyder) just don't get it. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 25, 2020 17:51:42 GMT -5
There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. Yes it was nice to hear that little tune.....although i still found it misplaced. That signature was used if Supe's saved someone on the Reeve flicks.....to use it in the middle of a punch up with the other DC crew did not seem right to me. Shows how these guys(be it Wheddon or Snyder) just don't get it Agreed.... though it's ridiculously crazy to think some things might change in terms of even seeing movies from now on. So bizzare and unpleasant... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 26, 2020 15:39:25 GMT -5
There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. Yes it was nice to hear that little tune.....although i still found it misplaced. That signature was used if Supe's saved someone on the Reeve flicks.....to use it in the middle of a punch up with the other DC crew did not seem right to me. Shows how these guys(be it Wheddon or Snyder) just don't get it. Actually it was used a couple of times. The first time was intentionally meant to be a subversion or what we expect from Superman. Instead of doing good he fights everyone. That’s why the theme is twisted and darker. The second time it IS used when he shows up to save someone: the Justice leaguers. He’s also there to stop from killing everyone. Whedon got Superman just fine. Problem was he was trying to do a patchwork job on Snyder’s garbage instead of starting from scratch which is what they should have done. No director could have saved the movie by doing a simple workaround with new material. The flaws were baked in. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 26, 2020 15:43:23 GMT -5
The problem I think is the interpretation Snyder has of Superman- as tortured soul - Singer also had that for a part of Superman, but at the same time- he had the optimistic Clark and Jimmy to show the hopeful humanity aspect.... whereas Snyder wanted to destroy Jimmy gleefully. Ugh. The studios had to have felt the Superman-totally dark wasn't working or reacting to online reaction for them to get Joss Whedon to restore the quippy more positive Supes. At least Singer had a reason. His Superman is one who is coming back while the world has moved on. Snyder not only took it even further but also screwed with Superman’s formative years to the point that his motivation was altered. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 26, 2020 15:46:15 GMT -5
There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. If Whedon came in to touch up BvS, that might have been enough to right the ship--- but when I think of MOS with some of those unnecessarily disturbing scenes (Superman using his heat vision on Lois Lane? WTH?)-- You're right--- it's too little too late. They should have pushed the film back fired Snyder before filming began and let Whedon start from scratch as ship and director. The damage was done but we probably would have gotten a better film and maybe even a more successful one. They also would have saved at least 50 million dollars. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 26, 2020 15:49:54 GMT -5
The problem I think is the interpretation Snyder has of Superman- as tortured soul - Singer also had that for a part of Superman, but at the same time- he had the optimistic Clark and Jimmy to show the hopeful humanity aspect.... whereas Snyder wanted to destroy Jimmy gleefully. Ugh. The studios had to have felt the Superman-totally dark wasn't working or reacting to online reaction for them to get Joss Whedon to restore the quippy more positive Supes. At least Singer had a reason. His Superman is one who is coming back while the world has moved on. Snyder not only took it even further but also screwed with Superman’s formative years to the point that his motivation was altered. Agreed! Also, I never felt Singer got credit for wanting to preserve the Donner version by continuing forward. At least we got "Crisis", to sort of wrap it all up in our imagination, but... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 26, 2020 15:51:48 GMT -5
If Whedon came in to touch up BvS, that might have been enough to right the ship--- but when I think of MOS with some of those unnecessarily disturbing scenes (Superman using his heat vision on Lois Lane? WTH?)-- You're right--- it's too little too late. They should have pushed the film back fired Snyder before filming began and let Whedon start from scratch as ship and director. The damage was done but we probably would have gotten a better film and maybe even a more successful one. They also would have saved at least 50 million dollars. I liked the movie enough.... but the damage really was done with two prior films. There are interesting bits, but hardly a film with enough joy to bring out to cheer one up... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 26, 2020 16:03:42 GMT -5
They’re still trying to figure out how to undo the damage now. Snyder’s put them in an awkward position for years. But WB has to shoulder most to the blame for going all in on a guy and a direction that were totally wrong for what they wanted.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 26, 2020 17:01:55 GMT -5
They’re still trying to figure out how to undo the damage now. Snyder’s put them in an awkward position for years. But WB has to shoulder most to the blame for going all in on a guy and a direction that were totally wrong for what they wanted. Nolan didn't help much by being so hands off.... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 27, 2020 13:00:16 GMT -5
Nolan had his own film to worry about plus I think he was trying to be a directors producer by letting Snyder have some creative freedom. He never should have gone with the Snyder choice in the first place. That was the real problem.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 27, 2020 18:40:10 GMT -5
Nolan had his own film to worry about plus I think he was trying to be a directors producer by letting Snyder have some creative freedom. He never should have gone with the Snyder choice in the first place. That was the real problem. Nolan didn't seem to have his heart all in for Superman.... can you imagine if Donner was chosen as the shepard to choose his own director? |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 4, 2020 11:45:17 GMT -5
That’s because he was really doing it as a favor to Goyer. Nolan loves STM but he had no interest in making a Superman movie especially a reboot. Can’t say I blame him.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 4, 2020 14:49:33 GMT -5
That’s because he was really doing it as a favor to Goyer. Nolan loves STM but he had no interest in making a Superman movie especially a reboot. Can’t say I blame him. I almost forgot that Nolan did love STM... But Goyer's said on tape he was all wrong to write a Superman movie years ago. I have a feeling he convinced himself he was making all the right choices... but, o man.... I did love Batman Begins and Dark Knight- which Goyer does deserve a chunk of credit for, but.... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 4, 2020 17:05:47 GMT -5
Goyer wrote the script but Nolan had to execute it. Any decent writer with comic book knowledge could have done what Goyer did. Batman Begins and MOS showed how much Goyer contributed and the difference between what Snyder and Nolan brought to their respective films. Goyers big problem is he bought into his own hype after the dark knight trilogy. It’s not surprising that most of what he’s done since has bombed or been awful or both.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 4, 2020 17:17:12 GMT -5
Goyer wrote the script but Nolan had to execute it. Any decent writer with comic book knowledge could have done what Goyer did. Batman Begins and MOS showed how much Goyer contributed and the difference between what Snyder and Nolan brought to their respective films. Goyers big problem is he bought into his own hype after the dark knight trilogy. It’s not surprising that most of what he’s done since has bombed or been awful or both. Goyer has always (imo) had good ideas, but when he's flown 'solo' on projects, it seemed to be pretty dark without much humanity to it across the board. Especially noticeable when he was the showrunner for the really humorless Blade tv show- presumably with next to no restrictions. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 4, 2020 17:23:02 GMT -5
That and he’s not a very good writer. Like you said he’s an idea guy. It’s always. Set when a better writer does another draft of his script. Plus he’s too jaded to really bring variety to a lot of films and genres. Some guys can write anything. He can’t.
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 14, 2022 15:36:20 GMT -5
Yknow, Kris said something cryptic about it once like, "You know who they are." But we don't know. So, Kris, maybe you can help clarify who the Reeve Only People are? I want answers |
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