Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 11, 2017 20:16:23 GMT -5
Everything you said and more. The main films are just collapsing in on themselves with problems that have been there from the beginning. So many choices in the last few films just didn't ring true. That's why I really felt the Singerverse should have ended with Logan. It was a great high to go out on. This...seems like milking the cow after its way too old and sick.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 13, 2017 3:16:14 GMT -5
Everything you said and more. The main films are just collapsing in on themselves with problems that have been there from the beginning. So many choices in the last few films just didn't ring true. That's why I really felt the Singerverse should have ended with Logan. It was a great high to go out on. This...seems like milking the cow after its way too old and sick. Singer's method of 'changing things up as they go'- oftentimes has worked on the X-men series- but failed in Apocalypse imo. If he had test screenings, I wonder if he would have changed the middle and last act (which were the biggest problems in my opinion). With Joss Whedon, while his films so far seems to have problems with feeling like tv movies at times- With his work in television on making sure his stories kept focus on his primary characters AND being an authentic comic book geek (when he named Avengers Annual #7 as the greatest comic ever made at a convention, calling out that specific issue couldn't have been a random thing of someone just giving lip service to reading comics)- I think he would have laid out a more solid game plan with specific characters. He's often said that he makes sure he knows his ending before he writes the rest of the script- so, if there were multiple films under Whedon versus Singer, I think we would have gotten films that bent a bit closer to the comics overall, and not have trashed or killed off so many great supporting characters as Singer has done in his tenure. Anyhow, Singer's hit ratio has been 5 out of 6 for me for his comic book adaptations, so.... can't really trash him too much, to be honest. It's just a darn shame that Apocalypse turned out so disappointing, as it's going to be hard (if not impossible) to smooth out the errors in that one, going forward....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 19, 2017 16:56:41 GMT -5
It's a shame we can't get Whedon and Singer together to do something. They've both worked on dc and Marvels films at different times for different companies.
I don't think Singer has anything left to prove to anyone. He helped launch a new era of these movies where they were taken seriously by Hollywood and audiences. Apocalypse wasn't terrible just mediocre. Wish he could have gone out on a high but if he wants to move on I'm cool with that. Let some new blood in there to push these movies forward to the next era.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 20, 2017 0:59:20 GMT -5
It's a shame we can't get Whedon and Singer together to do something. They've both worked on dc and Marvels films at different times for different companies. I don't think Singer has anything left to prove to anyone. He helped launch a new era of these movies where they were taken seriously by Hollywood and audiences. Apocalypse wasn't terrible just mediocre. Wish he could have gone out on a high but if he wants to move on I'm cool with that. Let some new blood in there to push these movies forward to the next era. True- Apocalypse wasn't out and out horrible- but the last act betrayed the whole setup of the front end of that film. (That is, with Magneto doing an unconvincing 180 turn by the end) I don't know if Singer is 100 percent out yet...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 20, 2017 12:58:42 GMT -5
He's still with the franchise since he's working on The Gifted tv show but I think he wanted a break to do other films. Apocalypse still did good business overseas. I think the problem was the script because it was made in 2 years instead of 3.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Sept 21, 2017 0:48:16 GMT -5
He's still with the franchise since he's working on The Gifted tv show but I think he wanted a break to do other films. Apocalypse still did good business overseas. I think the problem was the script because it was made in 2 years instead of 3. Perhaps, but.... I think what makes me scratch my head was being walked through the routine of the Star Trek: Next Gen writing room years ago (that SEEMS to be still mostly how tv writing rooms function even now)- where a draft of a script was due in a few days before notes, after a broad outline was decided on. If there are/have been great tv shows written on such a crazy timetable, then why do the movies really need to take that much longer? We had Ron Moore & Brannon Braga transition quickly from writing the Next Gen tv show to films- what is it that requires screenwriters to need so much more time than the television writers? There's been television that's been as good as or better than their film counterparts, so what the heck? Anyhow.... I would have been fine waiting a year if it meant a better finished film. I'm hoping Singer comes back and if he has to leave, to leave on a stronger X-men film....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Sept 21, 2017 15:41:39 GMT -5
Writing for television isn't the same as writing for film though. We saw that where good trek tv writers turned in duffer films scripts. Different demands. It's not just about a good story but making certain people happy. Back then tv was also seen as "lesser" or less important so there weren't as many demands. The trek movies were about giving people what they couldn't get on tv or at least that was the plan. Even though TNG was episodic and not serialized there was a certain framework or format they could use that was part of every episode
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atp
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Post by atp on Jan 17, 2020 11:40:42 GMT -5
My friend has seen the film. HE LOVED IT!!! The trailers give very little away. The film is HUGE. Cavill's up there with Reeve. Maybe even surpassed Reeve's performance. Shannon's Zod is terrific. In hindsight, did Cavill really surpass Reeve? If so, why was he cancelled as Superman? And was Shannon really terrific as Zod?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 17, 2020 11:51:26 GMT -5
I think his last line was intentionally a little tongue I cheek but even if you exclude Cavill’s later films I think Gandalf MIGHT walk those comments back a little bit now.
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Post by atp on Jan 21, 2020 3:07:01 GMT -5
Is it just me, or were we clearly misled by the trailers and hype for MoS back in 2013?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 21, 2020 7:49:57 GMT -5
Yeah. At least that first teaser did anyway. The Terrence Malick-y visuals, deeper themes, and more hopeful tone were definitely front and center in the teaser. We didn’t get so much of that in the movie. Most of the visuals turned out to be more drab and desaturated and we got Pa Kent saying maybe he should let them die.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 22, 2020 21:22:54 GMT -5
Yeah. At least that first teaser did anyway. The Terrence Malick-y visuals, deeper themes, and more hopeful tone were definitely front and center in the teaser. We didn’t get so much of that in the movie. Most of the visuals turned out to be more drab and desaturated and we got Pa Kent saying maybe he should let them die. Goyer was never right for Superman.... he said it himself years ago when promoting "Batman Begins" at a screenwriting interview. Chris Nolan I'm not sure would have been right even if he directed the Goyer script, unless massive changes were done. The general concept of the Kents wanting their son to hide forever rather than ease into helping humanity was really off. It's sad that either Nolan didn't get it with Superman or just didn't care enough about some of the basic concepts of the Superman comics to keep Goyer and Snyder from having the adaptation fall off the rails.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 15, 2020 14:07:40 GMT -5
Is it just me, or were we clearly misled by the trailers and hype for MoS back in 2013? Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 16, 2020 1:59:54 GMT -5
Is it just me, or were we clearly misled by the trailers and hype for MoS back in 2013? Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion. Snyder got Watchmen made- and I give him credit for being a genuine fan of comics.... but his & Goyer's take on Superman was definitely not something that warmed the heart. Even when I felt like giving some latitude, the idea of having joy over wiping out Jimmy Olsen violently was just.... wow. At the same time- Snyder might have been fine with Batman instead. I do have to say that his Batman action sequence was fantastic in BvS and the best hand-to-hand action sequence of all the Batman films...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 18, 2020 11:09:26 GMT -5
Snyder comes off as a fan of the style of comics but not the substance. He can’t seem to see past the superficial. He made watchmen but it would have been made anyway. The people that say watchmen is unfilmable but Snyder made it don’t seem to get it. Anyone CAN make Watchmen but when Moore said it was unfilmable he meant a direct translation to screen that works the exact same way. Watchmens story was designed to be told as a comic and comics and film are very different mediums even as far as how they are consumed.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 18, 2020 11:12:04 GMT -5
Is it just me, or were we clearly misled by the trailers and hype for MoS back in 2013? Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion. Abrams is a mimic. He has no creative inner life of his own. We’ve seen it time and again. Snyder is more concerned about visuals than story. When it comes to storytelling he’s like Stevie Wonder walking across a freeway. Take away any guide for these guys to follow and they’re both lost.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 18, 2020 13:33:41 GMT -5
Snyder comes off as a fan of the style of comics but not the substance. He can’t seem to see past the superficial. He made watchmen but it would have been made anyway. The people that say watchmen is unfilmable but Snyder made it don’t seem to get it. Anyone CAN make Watchmen but when Moore said it was unfilmable he meant a direct translation to screen that works the exact same way. Watchmens story was designed to be told as a comic and comics and film are very different mediums even as far as how they are consumed. Right. I think what Snyder gave that others who have tried it might not is the greenlight for the big budget- considering there's no Pepsi or Happy Meal lunches you could tie into it. There are bits that actually are very nice in the adaptation, (the Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan bits are probably the best) but much of the rest falls flat dramatically. Not really crazy about the Damon Lindoff semi-sequels, but it is what it is.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 18, 2020 19:12:35 GMT -5
I think if Terry Gilliam had made his Watchmen movie it would have been even less commercial than Snyder’s. I don’t think we ever would have gotten a movie that was made to sell happy meals but Snyder probably delivered a more bloody overtly violent movie since that’s his thing.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 18, 2020 20:54:01 GMT -5
Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion. Snyder got Watchmen made- and I give him credit for being a genuine fan of comics.... but his & Goyer's take on Superman was definitely not something that warmed the heart. Even when I felt like giving some latitude, the idea of having joy over wiping out Jimmy Olsen violently was just.... wow. At the same time- Snyder might have been fine with Batman instead. I do have to say that his Batman action sequence was fantastic in BvS and the best hand-to-hand action sequence of all the Batman films... Yea And therein lies the problem with Snyder...a great action sequence of Batman duffing up some expendable thugs(style) whilst the so-called washed up/burned out Wayne still had the cool aston martin driving it around like a suave James Bond.....hardly the sign of a washed up character(substance). Ok that's a bit harsh again...…whilst I personally liked Affleck's performance, I did not get the impression for one frame of that movie that his Batman(even less so his Wayne) was burned out....thereby robbing the story of one of it's potential dramatic arcs(and a dream/nightmare CG bat-monster bursting out of Martha's grave does not cut it). Also Snyder's Superman "save" sequences lack any dynamic gravitas. Pulling an overturned CG Ship(no people in frame), catching an malfunctioning CG Rocket(no people in frame), hovering aloof above a flooded CG landscape(ok at least there were some people in frame) exemplify that without any reaction shots from the saved victims and without any exposition of these victims before they are saved.... the scenes just fall flat. The saving of the girl from the fire at the Day Of The Dead festival actually is a nice shot but without even the slightest ounce of a build up or even the remotest exposition of the saved girl it just has a hollow feeling. Take Supe's saving the boy at Niagra falls in SII and the dynamic is totally different. Brief exposition of the boy on the railing disobeying his mum, Clark convincing the boy to again "be careful" and then the boys eventual fall. There are great reactions from Lois(and his parents) and the rest of the niagra crowd to the fact that the boy has fallen. Supe's then saves the little fella and again lovely reactions as Supe's lands with the crowd actually moving closer as he touches down. Also that sequence is real in terms of location work(sure there are opticals thrown in to) but it's simply on a different level of film making. All Snyder can do is show Supe's holding up a CG oil rig whilst focusing on his ripped abs. Says it all.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 18, 2020 21:00:25 GMT -5
Snyder's wife tried to cover for her husband saying that fans could not cope with the deconstruction of a hero. Snyder is one of those directors(Abrahams and Bay are others) who had they been born 30 years earlier would never have become film directors. These kinds of directors only succeed because a technology(CGI) has allowed them to create/generate material that they would have been incapable of doing so without said technology. Could you imagine Snyder or Abrahams making the equivalent of a STM. They don't have the noose or knowhow. It's actually interesting that both Donner and Lester had pretty diverse but expansive resume's going into STM and SII respectfully. But that helped with their interpretations of those movies. They had done period dramas, social dramas, horrors , political and pop cultural commentaries ect Snyder is just a CGI fan boy who got to make movies and music videos. Quite frankly he should go back to doing music videos. It's harsh but that is my opinion. Abrams is a mimic. He has no creative inner life of his own. We’ve seen it time and again. Snyder is more concerned about visuals than story. When it comes to storytelling he’s like Stevie Wonder walking across a freeway. Take away any guide for these guys to follow and they’re both lost. Lol Too bad they were given the keys to piss over the legacy of the 2 biggest franchises of the late 70s/ early 80s(Superman and Star Wars).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 21, 2020 13:09:57 GMT -5
The problem I think is the interpretation Snyder has of Superman- as tortured soul - Singer also had that for a part of Superman, but at the same time- he had the optimistic Clark and Jimmy to show the hopeful humanity aspect.... whereas Snyder wanted to destroy Jimmy gleefully. Ugh. The studios had to have felt the Superman-totally dark wasn't working or reacting to online reaction for them to get Joss Whedon to restore the quippy more positive Supes.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 23, 2020 12:10:24 GMT -5
@cam
Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire.
But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting.
The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked.
In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax.
Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition .
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2020 15:48:35 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . I give Whedon a pass because he was playing 'script doctor' to something already shot- and... was also limited to NOT make it a three hour epic. (Which might have helped a number of things). I do recognize it's kind of weird that I defend Whedon for lightening up a director's original vision whereas I criticize Lester endlessly for doing that to Donner's vision....
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 23, 2020 17:05:40 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 23, 2020 19:28:20 GMT -5
@cam Yes I personally liked Justice League's Superman better than the MOS or DOJ Superman. Showed Cavill had potential as Supes, if only he was allowed to express other aspects of his acting repertoire. But both Wheddon and Snyder can only express Supe's abilities in the context of fighting. The flying aspect and more importantly ,the saving aspect of Supe's are completely overlooked. In JL, Supes is resurrected and immediately takes part in a bust up with the other Heroes. He then has that brief emotional moment with Lois back at the ranch and is not seen again until he duffs up Stepenwolf in the climax. Ok there was that brief moment when he carries that block of flats....which is played for laughs...it's not bad. Having said that, because once again the victims have no exposition or reaction shots ,it just rings hollow. To be fair that sequence of Flash saving the family in the fleeing truck carried a bit more weight because they at least did have some brief(all be it distorted) exposition . There's also a tiny bit of the John Williams Superman theme in JL. But it's all too little, too late. Man of Steel ruined everything and never should have been made. If Whedon came in to touch up BvS, that might have been enough to right the ship--- but when I think of MOS with some of those unnecessarily disturbing scenes (Superman using his heat vision on Lois Lane? WTH?)-- You're right--- it's too little too late.
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