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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 4, 2011 15:53:53 GMT -5
On the Snyder thread, there's chat about whether or not Lois will be the main female lead--- and brought up a thought: We know that Lois is, and has always been made into Supes' love for life. BUT.... Why would Supes go nuts over Lois, versus Lana, versus the mermaid, versus Wonder Woman, etc. etc. etc.? And SHOULD Lois always be Superman's main love? In Spiderman, Peter Parker's love life was a revolving door. One suprise I didn't mind so much about the reboot Spiderman is that Gwen Stacey is the main love of his life, vs. MJ. (as it was originally anyhow in the comix) Recently, in reviewing (yeah, I've been STILL reworking my cut non-stop, that I thought would be done by xmas)- SII once again, to the part where Lois and Clark go to the diner..... couldn't help but be struck by the idea: if there were no immediate threat by Zod & company--- would this relationship even LAST?  Is Lois' love for Superman pretty superficial? Then, I thought, well.... why is Supes attracted to HER in the first place? My thought is: if Clark isn't a 'fake identity', and its essentially Superman without powers, and he's extremely neurotic constantly (to a certain level, thus why Jimmy is the only friend he's got at the competitive cutthroat Daily Planet), on a certain level wanting to be liked as a human being without superpowers and the celebrity status... Then, of course he's attracted to a reporter who could care LESS about anyone liking her, and is fearless about doing the one great thing that (also) benefits mankind. Lois Lane. Now.... if she couldn't report the news and uncover evils in society, then what else would she do? Be a stay-at-home mom? I can't see that as being true to the character. (Thus, why I totally believed she would recklessly put her own kid in danger when it came to being on the edge of an exciting story in SR) So... anyhow, getting back to the idea: In looking at the relationship, you could say that it's more infatuation: they both really are crazy for one another---- because it's really on the surface* (*Now, this is based on the comics prior to the marriage part forced in the comix: I still have a hard time believing in it. I believe more that Supes and Lois would have illegitimate kids before Lois would marry Clark, but that's just me.) and not a genuine relationship of accepting and knowing the truth about one another. Essentially, Lois is in love with what she can't have*: the ultimate celebrity/heartthrob/guy/news story Supes. Also to help that fantasy is that he can make all the diamonds in the world for her, by crushing coal with his bare hands. So, no worries in the money dept. And, essentially, Supes may seem to love Lois, but only because she treats him like crap when he's in his human identity. Otherwise, he'd go for the equally hot Lana who treats Clark like a human being. Is this a sick sort of love based on (ironic) low self-esteem? So..... Supes/Lois.... healthy relationship? Dunno about that, but it's what was in the comics! So, I dug it in the movies, but under the surface, can't help but feel it's not really an ideal model relationship for the guys.... Agree/disagree? What's your take on it? |
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Post by SupermanUF on Feb 4, 2011 17:45:49 GMT -5
He likes her because she's tough and feisty.
Something I understand. I broke up with my last girlfriend of 2 years, whom I lived with, because at the end of the day, I felt like she wasn't tough enough.
Let me explain. I started thinking about having a family with her, and wondering if something were to happen to me, would she step up to the plate? Would she be a survivor? Would she fire a gun to protect the family against an intruder? Would she move quick enough to save the kids and the dog when the house is on fire? Would she eat bugs if we were ever stranded on an island? I felt like the answer to all those questions was, ultimately, "no."
Lois Lane, however, IS tough. She IS a survivor. It's not easy to find women who are. And I think that's what the attraction is. At a primal level, Lois can hold her own with the manliest man around. Not many women can.
Are there better matches? Sure. I've ALWAYS been a fan of the Clark/Diana romance. Kingdom Come handled it beautifully, I thought. In the end, it CAN'T be Lois.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Feb 4, 2011 22:30:57 GMT -5
If there is ONE redeeming factor to Superman 3 (for me anyway) is that I do like how Lana is in love with Clark. Not sure if Donner would've explored this (assuming he finished 2 and made 3 as well), but if 3 had done better and they decided to make a 4th film with Lester at the helm, I would've loved to see where that relationship went. Granted, Reeve's interpretation of Clark for 3 is vastly different than parts 1 and 2. He doesn't seem as clumsy or stutter anymore. I know in the behind the scenes Reeve said that at this point in the series there's no reason for Clark to act that way anymore and thus altered the character a bit. It certainly showed in the final product. The only thing I didn't like about Clark in part 3 is that almost everything (aside from Lana) seemed to either confuse or annoy him. Jimmy talking to him on the bus comes to mind. Though granted again, that was probably the joke the writers were going for. At the same time though, Superman almost always seemed angry/upset or confused as well, even when he wasn't evil. To me it just really shows how much Reeve didn't wanna play the part anymore. Margot Kidder may have voiced her opinion which resulted her in getting axed from part 3, but Reeve went about it in a more subtler way and simply made the character of Superman simply unlikeable in this movie (to me).
A shame to me because Reeve's physique certainly looked the best in 3. Though the hair should've stayed the way it looked in 1/Donner's 2. But I digress...
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Knight
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Post by Knight on Feb 4, 2011 22:40:12 GMT -5
Yea,I agree. In the Chemical plant rescue he is a lot more aggressive with the fire crew and the people he orders down that chute and the look he gives that tractor driver too. Personally he should have let Ricky get all mashed up haha
But,the sub plot of Clark and Lana is excellent. It's the sweater around Clark's neck with the S on the back-does it for me all the time. A metaphorical chain holding him back. Excellent.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2011 0:58:12 GMT -5
Interesting perspective. Very cool, thanks.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2011 1:14:55 GMT -5
Yeah.... one of the few bits that made the film interesting was the Lana/Clark romance (plus having Annette O'Toole & Reeve play them)....but since it was written by the writers in such a dopey way*, and since Lester never really mined it for more depth (*it could be argued that the Lois/Clark stuff was also written a bit sitcomish as well in STM/SII- but it definitely became darker/deeper in the Mank script version later on, so it wasn't just for flat laughs).... it definitely didn't even come close to showing what could have been an interesting new dimension to Clark/Supes.
Same with the 'schizo' Superman. The idea of Supes turning into split identities could have also had far more possibilities that the single rather lame one (an evil Superman invades bars and beds cheap women--- that's as deep as the story gets???) that existed.
So, yeah....definitely missed opportunities all the way around with SIII.
As far as an angry/pissed off Reeve.... I understand that the casting of Pryor really pissed off Reeve- I believe it was because it then became a "Richard Pryor" movie rather than a Superman movie-- but then again, Reeve had gotten script approval by then, so it's truly weird as to why Reeve would have been so angry about the situation.
For sure, the interviews that surface now on youtube with Reeve back around STM/SII/SIII definitely show (at times) someone who enjoyed the business op that Superman gave him, but never seemed like it was going to be something that made him feel like a giant achievement at the time.
With the new Superman film--- if it turns out to be a giant suprise (in a good way) and it has a strong enough focus on Superman the character--- then it might be interesting to see how Supes' relationships develop beyond Lois.
Will see, I suppose...
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Post by lois on Feb 5, 2011 10:23:09 GMT -5
It's always been Superman and Lois for me. They really compliment each other. Superman loves Lois because she's feisty, is a risk taker, and also really deeply cares for him not just as a superhero, but, as a man. Take STM for instance Lois didn't treat Clark like crap nor in Superman II, Superman III and Superman IV. Also one of the chief reasons why I didn't like Superman III was of Richard Pryor. This was supposed to be a Superman movie NOT a Richard Pryor movie.  And Chris Reeve seemed to me a bit off in his Superman portrayal in this film. I do admit I liked the Clark/Lana parts of the movie. One of my favorite scenes of the Superman III movie is when Lois meets Lana and sees her ring and also comments to Clark how she really liked the article that he wrote. Was watching STM again last night and the Lois and Superman interview and the flight scene. Beautiful. Absolutely beautiful. IMHO Superman and Lois Lane is one of the greatest love stories of all time. Also, IMHO when you think of Superman, you also think of Lois Lane.  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2011 13:30:13 GMT -5
STM/SII (with caveats) are great- but both definitely stay away from getting too deep into the Superman/Lois relationship (but maybe it's
a good thing). 'Clark Kent' was a bit of a joke, intentionally so, with Donner/Reeve's take that Superman was the real identity, Clark (in Metropolis that is), being a 'put on'.
There's an interesting hint that Lois isn't sure if she's happy or not with having the man of her dreams to herself in the voiceover conversation in the car, on the way to the diner- interesting because her lack of enthusiasm could be interpreted either way: (1) in reality, getting exactly what you want isn't all it's cracked up to be, and maybe she mainly just wanted Superman with the powers, not Clark
or (2) she's in shock because she TOTALLY screwed the world and knows it. *
((*Something that would have been clearer had Mank's script been shot and Donner had time to shoot it. Lois is supposed to break down in tears at what she's caused soon as Supes is depowered and the crystals explode/etc.))
SR, on the other hand, was pretty fearless and decided to treat the Superman/Lois relationship VERY seriously- taking the template of Donner and taking it to another level, which of course made the audience split-making some people uncomfortable and others feeling it genius (I'm of course of the opinion it was genius), with the complication of the kid and having the complication of Lois having moved on to another relationship already - with the idea that both Lois and Supes are supposed to be virtuous at the core*.
(*Thus, why she didn't just dump Richard the second Supes got back, and interesting that Supes would be tempted to try to kiss Lois even knowing that she had moved on- giving Supes very specific gray areas to his character, which I loved)
Anyhow, how Singer would have handled Supes' revealing his identity to Lois would have been interesting writing-wise and given the seriousness that he was taking the material.
In Donner/Lester's version, both Supes and Lois are treated almost like schoolkids playing games with one another with the Clark identity.
Had MOS happened- would Lois feel an ultimate betrayal once she knew he was lying to her all this time?
Though there are also other slightly different things that Singer did in his version of the Supes/Clark/Lois relationship (outside the obvious with the kid):
(1) In the script, it's clearly written that Richard was supposed to look and emulate Superman- minus the powers. (Suggesting that she loves Supes for him, not just the celebrity and the powers)
(2) Lois looks very confused when Clark refers to them as 'friends'. In almost every other cinema/tv version, it's pretty clear that they do have (at the very least) a working relationship as friends.
Everyone has their take on the relationship*- it would have been interesting to have been able to see more of how Singer saw Clark as a character and how Lois would have treated him & Supes, once she knew, in more realistic terms.
(*Something that I thought was at least interesting about the Lois and Clark tv show: at its best, it did attempt to define the two personalities a bit more & take a point of view of how & why they thought the two belonged with one another.)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 5, 2011 13:32:43 GMT -5
Also... I think of the whole Superman family of characters, Lois definitely as the love of his life, though. (Though WHY he loves her over Lana beyond making the story more interesting is fun to ponder. But then again- Why do people usually only go crazy over the people they can't have?)  |
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Post by lois on Feb 5, 2011 16:02:53 GMT -5
Also... I think of the whole Superman family of characters, Lois definitely as the love of his life, though. (Though WHY he loves her over Lana beyond making the story more interesting is fun to ponder. But then again- Why do people usually only go crazy over the people they can't have?) Nicely said. Lois is the love of his life. The new avatar for my user profile I made says it all...their romantic flight amongst a starry night sky...Lois and Superman *sigh* I want to fly with Superman too! |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2011 17:37:21 GMT -5
Literally everything UF said, repeat for me. But my ex of two years was a few years ago.
Being obsessed with Superman has also made me obsessed with finding a Lois Lane, unfortunately.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 6, 2011 13:12:06 GMT -5
Sorry to hear, but could be worse.... what if Superman's love of his life were Lori Leramis (the mermaid)? Methinks strong bitchy reporters are easier to find vs. beautiful mermaids. (Though hard to say which would be less high maintenance as a girlfriend/mate ...) |
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Post by stargazer01 on Feb 6, 2011 14:10:31 GMT -5
Maybe Superman likes Lois because she's a really good 'kisser'.. |
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And Chris Reeve seemed to me a bit off in his Superman portrayal in this film. I do admit I liked the Clark/Lana parts of the movie. One of my favorite scenes of the Superman III movie is when Lois meets Lana and sees her ring and also comments to Clark how she really liked the article that he wrote.
