|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Dec 29, 2011 11:42:20 GMT -5
VERY interesting point there Jim. Yeah, looking at 45 minutes of unnecessary fluff (with the exception of the scene when Supes tries to stop the missile before it flies past him) really helps put things in perspective from the producers point of view. Don't forget those stills on capedwonder that show even MORE scenes that we haven't seen (3 year old Kal-el on the farm, 12 year old Kal, etc..) I agree. Had Donner kept it tight, I think they'd have been less likely to replace him.
Think about it. All Donner had left to shoot was:
1. NASA Houston base
2. Niagara Falls WITHOUT the river jump sequence
3. Houston Idaho, destruction of world (which again, could've been kept tighter like Lester did WITHOUT the camp and new powers)
4. Supes and Lois at the FOS, (again, WITHOUT the de-powering, since it'd been shot)
5. Metro battle.
6. One scene for after villains were taken care of, but I believe Donner would've simply let Lois know his secret (again, due to budgetary concerns, he'd have probably cut the DP next morning sequence the same way Boosh and I have)
What is that? Like 15-20 minutes of the film? Ok, yeah, that's probably most of the budget. But as discussed before, if Donner had been willing to cut corners like Lester, no, we wouldn't have gotten what Donenr had wanted, but we'd have gotten something that was much better than what Lester gave us*IMO*.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jimbo on Dec 29, 2011 12:22:29 GMT -5
Jim, I think maybe a lot of second/third unit shot most of the crap but I deffo agree. It didn't seem quite well planned looking at the KCOP. Thank heavens the editors were on top form Meaning the other units likely shot what they damn well pleased with little to no guidance, since Donner was so busy working on the main unit. They probably shot that much to be safe and prevent reshoots. Poor use of time and money there. Did they really need to shoot the Indian reservation when all they needed was a single line from 'the Chief' about some guy buying up all the land? |
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Dec 29, 2011 13:17:13 GMT -5
Actually, now that I think about it, I think maybe Donner may have edited a bit much during the entire "Lex and co. and the missiles" scenes. I get a very "rushed" feeling during that entire sequence. After the car flips over, up until we go back to the DP. Plus, we get more great comradery from Hackman, Beatty and Perrine. So, maybe some of the KCOP scenes would've worked there, but certainly not the whole thing. If anything, the 2001 dvd should've put in a few minutes of that sequence back into the film. Not Ma Kent calling Clark to get up for breakfast.
|
|
Gandy
New Member
Admiral
Owner & Creator of Superman Cinema
Posts: 17,343
|
Post by Gandy on Dec 29, 2011 14:10:13 GMT -5
Donner said that they were not allowed to test STM so they kept cutting. I think the theatrical is just about as good as it gets. The only scene I wish they cut back in was Supes waiting for the Hackensack rocket. Superman talking to his father after his first night really doesn't work and dialogue is odd. Superman questioning his father about keeping his identity secret? That dialogue could have been done as V.O. during the time and space sequence.
No one really knew what they were doing on STM. It's a miracle that they even finished it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Jor-L5150 on Dec 29, 2011 16:42:35 GMT -5
Donner said that they were not allowed to test STM so they kept cutting. I think the theatrical is just about as good as it gets. The only scene I wish they cut back in was Supes waiting for the Hackensack rocket. Superman talking to his father after his first night really doesn't work and dialogue is odd. Superman questioning his father about keeping his identity secret? That dialogue could have been done as V.O. during the time and space sequence. No one really knew what they were doing on STM. It's a miracle that they even finished it. i agree with all of that- but i'd add the "can you read my mind" is insipid, and i ALWAYS chapter skip. |
|
|
|
Post by TylerDurden389 on Dec 29, 2011 17:34:26 GMT -5
How about if it was the instrumental version instead?
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 31, 2011 0:50:17 GMT -5
It LOOKS like a lot- but looks can be deceiving with the padded editing. With a good number of practical fx- not supised he shot from multiple angles (ie the gas station explosion behind Lois' car) - but including just about each and every shot was nuts for EDITING.
Donner's done a good number of films with high budgets- and to my recollection (and boxofficemojo.com), he has never had a giant 'bomb' in regards to budget and what it grossed (outside of "Timeline"- which according to Boxofficemojo cost $80 mil and grossed about half of that worldwide)... Did he shoot an excessive amount for Superman, given the fx had never been done satisfactorally before?
If Lester undershot (the bad hair dye job in SIII tells he really didn't care enough about quality control even if I gave SII a pass...) - I'm not saying it's out of the question that Donner could have overshot, but how much is too much?
If it really was an issue that spiraled unreasonably out of control, I have this feeling that Donner wouldn't have been given as much rope as he had for the other films he had done.
The scene in the desert with the water diverted to help the Native Americans seemed pretty unnecessary (especially since it seemed more of an accidental benefit from Superman's actions in STM than anything else) - but it was in the script--- and for sure, it does seem pretty unnecessary in the final film, given the context.
Even if there was really no chance whatsoever that Donner could have come back- then I really do think that the film would have been far better off with getting a second unit director to wrap up the film with the Mank script in hand and the footage available.
The cast at that point got to know their characters....I really do like what Mank did with the script for SII--- if, in the worst case, it wasn't a great director to finish up SII- then at the very least, if following the script + the existing edited Donner footage (assuming a recast of Brando as well).... on the surface I truly do think I would have preferred that, to what we got in Lester's tainting the film to be broad farce for the most part.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 31, 2011 0:59:57 GMT -5
I recall reading somewhere that Hackman found Donner's directing style "exhausting". Pity he never tried out Lester's style as it seems the opposite. If Lester's footage ended up being just as good as Donner's- or if the Mank script for SII was just as campy as Lester's script for SII- then I wouldn't feel as if the movie was robbed of what it could have been. Can't imagine juggling all the units worldwide like this....PLUS all the headaches that apparently were happening with the producer/director and the actors on-set as well! It is a miracle the whole thing got shot from the original plans..... such a pity that the giant success of the first didn't end up with a smoother relationship with all involved for the second..... *sigh* (I agree with Tyler- looking at it all.... It really doesn't look like there would have been that much more to shoot - if fx/miniatures could have worked around the Villains around the world part- the biggest section would have been the Metro battle & Niagara falls--- and maybe a greenscreen of the Washington Monument section?)  |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 31, 2011 1:58:18 GMT -5
Just wanted to add.... in listening to the relationship (although with a grain of salt as it's only Jack's pov) between Reeve and O'Halloran, it's become a little more clear to me why they had a body double for the bit where Non grabs Supes from behind and tries to crush him.... rather than have the actual actor.
|
|
