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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 4, 2012 13:12:22 GMT -5
The Lester finished film vs. the Thau/Donner rough cut will always be superior as far as a finished film experience goes, not arguing that- though the individual scenes The Paris idea isn't bad....but could have been shot in a number of more dynamic ways. As it is, it felt slow the first time I saw it- and even if you couldn't spend a whole lot more money on it- there are a few other things that could have happened with it to give it more energy. DP jump edited better I prefer to the jumping in the water. The jumping in the water may make a little more sense- (less risky), but I thought it showed just HOW sure Lois was of Clark being Supes and (as scripted with the opticals of Supes appearing in costume in front of her as she draws a pic of Supes on the paper) felt fresh. The blank bullets is/was always a screentest- and, it was supposed to be bookended with the scene (never shot because Donner never had a chance) where Lois forces a kiss on Clark in the hotel room before the Niagara rescue. It doesn't work as well, because it's too rough in screentest form & isn't bookended by the proper scenes, either. The Jorel vs. Lara scene--- Susannah York/Chris Reeve are fantastic actors, and the scene plays great..... but it's definitely a different dynamic than Brando/Reeve. In York/Reeve's scene, Supes is genuinely in love...... in Brando/Reeve's --- it's a bit ambiguous as to whether or not he's choosing to lose his powers as a symbol of defying his father and shirking his responsibilities --- rather than JUST because he's so in love with Lois (maybe he's not entirely in love with her). In that sense, the Lara/Supes plays more like a fairy tale- he's ONLY doing it because he's really in love. In the Jorel/Supes scene, it's slightly uncomfortable, because it's almost more about Supes having the balls to defy his father for the first time (second time?) than about how much love overpowers all. I didn't mind the discomfort, but I could see why some prefer the Lara/Supes take. It makes that more of a conversation between humans- whereas with Jorel/Supes, it's a conversation between Greek Gods (as Puzo seemed to intend to frame his whole script around, 'a Greek tragedy' as he puts it). I like them both, but Donner/Puzo's take of Superman as a God who made a giant mistake more than a man is/was slightly different and original. Then again, the line readings (not the dialogue) by Reeve of talking about giving up his Kryptonian heritage/etc. etc. felt like they should have been done slower--- and given that Thau said that Donner (25 years later) wanted, 'faster faster' takes--- I'd KILL to see the alternate takes that Reeve may have done for that section where things took their time and he might have been more thoughtful as he said those lines. (I compare Jor-el's thoughtful speech to his son in STM to the rather mumbly similiar dialogue by Reeve in returning to the FOS in the RDC unfavorably. It seems written in the same style, but I hate Reeve's rambling line reading through it. Were these REALLY the best takes? Or just the fastest?)  Anyhow- speaking of rambling....there I go again. I get why people would prefer some of Lester's take on simplifying/humanizing Supes more--- but Donner's take was a whole vision, that I think is seen in STM - but I think also shows how delicate that operation was in the RDC and Lester version--- all it took where a couple of scenes and/or poor editing to make that vision way off balance.  |
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Post by indo77 on Jan 4, 2012 14:32:15 GMT -5
Personally I have always found the RIC to be superior to both the theatrical and TDC. It's a shame that it's never been presented in widescreen and HD. The Donner cut cannot honestly be compared against Lester's fairly since the footage in that version is probably poor takes that Donner would have refilmed. If the style of STM is anything to go by, Superman II in late 1979 would have been a very different movie. As it is Lex's prison scenes, the Arctic police footage and the subsequent scenes with Lois look the only scenes completed by Donner and probably were intended for the theatrical.
CAM,
I think I will rewatch your cut tonight. I did not get a proper look at it last year due to family circumstances.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 4, 2012 14:51:51 GMT -5
Agreed. Thau's mindset wasn't from someone who worshipped the '79 STM (he said so in an interview that he thought it was good, but it wasn't his top Donner film)....but if someone was going to edit/try to recreate what we would have gotten from Donner for SII--- I think it had to be from someone who either worshipped how STM was edited, from its pacing to original look at that time.
That's one thing that I'd give Selutron credit for, over Thau, even if I disagree with a couple of his choices. He's a passionate fan of the original & has shown from his clips a desire to try to match the look and feel of what was there--- not add 'new' contemporary aesthetics from the most part. (The blue stuff suggested by Thau in the prison break, or the bouncing Jorel head/seemingly unnecessary alternate takes that weren't from the trial, extra cuts to Donner scenes already edited- i.e. the FOS/balcony scenes with Lois/Supes).
Since the RTK scene came back on release out of (seemingly) nowhere--- no prior press release/whatnot--- hopefully (though an odd choice) there's SOMETHING that's going to happen new with MOS's dvd release to tie into SII/Donner era.
The free extra tons of alternate takes/etc. from SII are just sitting there, it seems really foolish for WB not to take some sort of advantage of making a few more bucks by releasing it in some form, as was discussed (a new documentary with unreleased/extended scenes/takes from SII seems pretty cheap and inexpensive, if not releasing a new cut nor the IRC on dvd)....
A lot of folks here are waiting in anticipation of MOS.....but, for my part, I'm sitting here more in anticipation of whether not WB will suprise us with any scraps of new Donner stuff to tie-into either the release of MOS or the MOS dvd release....
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Post by atp on Jan 4, 2012 15:46:08 GMT -5
Does anyone think the Lester repowering version might actually be better?
After seeing the Brando scenes, and having 5 years to "digest" them, I am a bit underwhelmed.
The Lester version is a bit more mysterious and in some ways, it works better than seeing exactly what happens and how Superman gets his powers back.
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Post by eccentricbeing on Jan 4, 2012 16:09:46 GMT -5
Lester's repowering scene works better because it keeps tempo.
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Post by Metallo on Jan 4, 2012 17:01:26 GMT -5
Agreed. Thau's mindset wasn't from someone who worshipped the '79 STM (he said so in an interview that he thought it was good, but it wasn't his top Donner film)....but if someone was going to edit/try to recreate what we would have gotten from Donner for SII--- I think it had to be from someone who either worshipped how STM was edited, from its pacing to original look at that time. That's one thing that I'd give Selutron credit for, over Thau, even if I disagree with a couple of his choices. He's a passionate fan of the original & has shown from his clips a desire to try to match the look and feel of what was there--- not add 'new' contemporary aesthetics from the most part. (The blue stuff suggested by Thau in the prison break, or the bouncing Jorel head/seemingly unnecessary alternate takes that weren't from the trial, extra cuts to Donner scenes already edited- i.e. the FOS/balcony scenes with Lois/Supes). Since the RTK scene came back on release out of (seemingly) nowhere--- no prior press release/whatnot--- hopefully (though an odd choice) there's SOMETHING that's going to happen new with MOS's dvd release to tie into SII/Donner era. The free extra tons of alternate takes/etc. from SII are just sitting there, it seems really foolish for WB not to take some sort of advantage of making a few more bucks by releasing it in some form, as was discussed (a new documentary with unreleased/extended scenes/takes from SII seems pretty cheap and inexpensive, if not releasing a new cut nor the IRC on dvd).... A lot of folks here are waiting in anticipation of MOS.....but, for my part, I'm sitting here more in anticipation of whether not WB will suprise us with any scraps of new Donner stuff to tie-into either the release of MOS or the MOS dvd release.... Thats how I've felt about the two "depowerings" In The Donner cut it seems as though Superman is presented as being totally wrong and not thinking clearly to chose Lois over his duty. Its got a much more negative vibe to it. In Lesters version giving in to his feelings isn't necessarily a moral mistake and he isn't presented in such a harsh light but it was something that still couldn't happen. Its easier to have some sympathy for Superman and the choice he makes. Even understanding. Its more romantic. Of course I prefer Superman sleeping with Lois BEFORE he gives up his powers. After makes it seem like he's doing it just to get some since they stride straight to the bed. Personally I have always found the RIC to be superior to both the theatrical and TDC. It's a shame that it's never been presented in widescreen and HD. The Donner cut cannot honestly be compared against Lester's fairly since the footage in that version is probably poor takes that Donner would have refilmed. If the style of STM is anything to go by, Superman II in late 1979 would have been a very different movie. As it is Lex's prison scenes, the Arctic police footage and the subsequent scenes with Lois look the only scenes completed by Donner and probably were intended for the theatrical. CAM, I think I will rewatch your cut tonight. I did not get a proper look at it last year due to family circumstances. You're probably right Indo. Thats whats so frustrating about it. There's a good chance Donner would have gone back and improved those scenes but we'll never know. The Donner cut just gives us an idea of what may have been so its not really a fair comparison to stack the RDC against The Theatrical film. Does anyone think the Lester repowering version might actually be better? After seeing the Brando scenes, and having 5 years to "digest" them, I am a bit underwhelmed. The Lester version is a bit more mysterious and in some ways, it works better than seeing exactly what happens and how Superman gets his powers back. I think The mysterious Lester repowering does a better job building anticipation since we're not sure what happens. When Superman does fly into Metropolis its much more exciting and worth cheering over. The Music and "would you care to step outside" is a lot more thrilling than "haven't you ever heard of freedom of the press." |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 4, 2012 17:14:20 GMT -5
Yeah.... It's a little hard to feel as much sympathy for Donner's Superman- but it's more complex (which I liked) as far as Superman's motivations.
Lester's 'love-happy Superman' who's a fool for love & gets depowered is definitely more sympathetic..... but, interesting how much the same scene can be layered so differently by two directors, eh? (If only Donner had the chance to shoot Kidder's closeups for that scene--- odd that they had time to do the test shoots in costume, but not the actual closeups)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 4, 2012 17:21:28 GMT -5
Having digested the script earlier on before the RDC, I would have greatly preferred the Donner version. The RDC version.....here's how I see it- Seeing it as edited by Thau, based on Donner's other films around that time- it's just wayyy too truncated to have any real emotion on it- or maybe it's the lack of good music editing. I know there's the argument that we don't know if he would have reshot it- and that maybe this is as good as it could have been edited based on what was shot, but we DO know that the Brando scenes were rushed out asap--- and we do know the quality of the other scenes that Donner did in STM and his other films around that time.... Ultimately--- the Lester finished stuff has/will almost always have an advantage over the stuff that wasn't completed by Donner at the time.... the Jorel stuff depowering and repowering look unfinished, and technically are unfinished. Sad that we only have those two choices to pick from- the Lester version and the unfinished Donner/Thau version. Ah well....again, another cry for an extended recut of SII (falling on deaf ears at WB, I know...) |
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Post by atp on Jan 4, 2012 17:47:41 GMT -5
I just realised one of the reasons I am not that keen on the Brando repowering scene.
Essentially it's a rehash of the farewell scene in ST, Jor-El saying goodbye to Kal-El, dying, the same music etc. etc.
It's too much to have the same kind of scene twice.
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Post by Metallo on Jan 4, 2012 18:40:22 GMT -5
Thats part of the point though. I think those two scenes are intentionally supposed to mirror each other except now Kal-El is a man instead of a child. Jor-El even references how he died when Kal-El was small. And now he's about to "die" again to save his only son and how Kal-Els choice brought it to this.
Only major problem I have with the actual re-powering are probably some of the effects composting and Clark/Kal-El shaking as Jor El gives him his life force. Looked kind of silly to me especially with the look on Reeves face.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 4, 2012 18:43:53 GMT -5
I attribute it more to editing....(and could well be not shot properly-- Donner said he would have redone it) the scene in the script has a lot more weight. The music editing is horrible, plus we should have seen more of a connection between the father & son. It should have been a tear-jerker scene, but not as its in the RDC
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Post by atp on Jan 4, 2012 23:29:18 GMT -5
Only major problem I have with the actual re-powering are probably some of the effects composting and Clark/Kal-El shaking as Jor El gives him his life force. Looked kind of silly to me especially with the look on Reeves face. There's that, and also the stupid wide-eyed expression on Reeve's face when Jor-El says, "LOOK AT ME KAL-EL". Completely over-acted. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 5, 2012 11:50:26 GMT -5
The performance can totally be affected by the choice of takes...but it's not impossible that it was rushed, I have to admit. If so many of Donner's scenes from both STM and SII weren't of such high standards in the acting department--- then I'd say that it's possible that Donner flubbed it.....but the Jorel/Supes repowering sequence is just so sloppy- that one assumes:
#1: It was early on (Brando was scheduled for a limited time that they had to rush on) + it was a flub by Donner, that he would have reshot (based on looking at the quality of a series of movies he did at the time, we can judge his overall standard... the guy who did STM to near perfection and Lethal Weapon 1-2 wouldn't have just let this go).
#2: He shot it great, but Thau edited it REALLY badly. (The mismatched soundtrack doesn't help at all) With or without Donner-25 years later saying he wanted the pacing 'faster faster'.... we know that Donner wasn't there for the whole editing - but how much he was involved at the end is anyone's guess. We only know a couple of bits that Donner didn't want back, but that's as far as we know...
Now if these takes were really all Thau had- then Thau gets a bad rap, and the scenes needed a reshoot later on. If there are better takes though, then that scene that we've been waiting years for got destroyed through the editing alone.
In any case, without the alternate takes being made available to us, we can only speculate if Donner had a weak scene shot initially or if Thau botched it by his editing.... but we do know his standard (and taste) at the time would have had him reshoot (if it was possible- though we know that if it was a reshoot, it wasn't going to be with Brando in the role given the money situation).
In any case, it was painful to wait so long for something that seems still unfinished.... and more painful because some will look at the RDC with its partially raw scenes and truncated editing and the theatrical and come to (imo wrong) conclusions that Lester was the ideal one to finish the job.
WB, PLLLLEASE give us a recut of SII!!!! (Or dvd quality IRC) *sigh*
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Post by atp on Jan 5, 2012 13:48:52 GMT -5
Sometimes I think it would be best to edit STM and S2 into one movie.
There must be a way to do it so that there is no retarded turning the world back stuff. Maybe remove all the stuff with Lois and her car in California completely.
It would also avoid the need for any kind of Krypton trial recap since it would just be one long movie.
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Post by Metallo on Jan 5, 2012 15:03:23 GMT -5
I must admit I'd also love to see STM and SII edited together as something closer to the way they were originally intended to be. Just to see how it would turn out.
Cut out Lois's dying and just have him show up like he does at her stopped car after turning back time. I'd even like to see the turning back time ending for SII just to see how it flows but I'd rather have the amnesia kiss/fly to the white house ending as the end of this massive fancut.
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Jan 6, 2012 0:49:54 GMT -5
Hate to say it but Donner himself put the Salkinds, Lester and everyone else in a bad position when he refused a joint director credit. Had Donner simply said "yes", they probably would've only finished shooting what hadn't been done, and a few other misc. things. Only to get Lester's credit up to 50%. Considering Lester didn't care for the material (and his silence over the years regarding his contributions to the franchise), I have no doubts that Lester wouldn't have minded this at all. Assuming this would've still gotten him to the money the Salkinds owed him of course.
They probably would've kept the DP jump in, and had Lester shoot his own version of the blank bullets scene (it would've saved them more money AND saved Margot from another crazy sequence where Lois nearly dies lol). However, I fear the Niagara scenes, villains in Idaho, Metro battle & amnesia kiss would've unfortunately turned out the same though.
Had Donner said yes, the next problem then would've been Brando. The Salkinds couldn't pay him any more. So the question is, would they had re-shot the de-powering and re-powering as they eventually did? Or would they have actually tried to use the Donner footage and splice it with new footage of Susannah York doing Brando's lines word-for-word? They'd have to have done a new close-up so that it's "Mother, I love her", of course. I'd imagine, again, doing it this way would've helped save money as well.
Now before any of you say "They'd have re-shot it all anyway because the layout of the fortress looked different in 2", don't forget that it didn't stop them from doing that at the end of the film anyway. I'd imagine they'd also not have bothered with FOS "battle" with the cellophane S and other new powers either. That was just all more unnecessary padding to hike up Lester's percentage of footage.
Truth is though, for all this talk I have here about how simpler production would've been had Donner agreed to joint credit, I honestly don't blame him for saying "No". STM was his baby, and they took it from him. So good for him for not playing along. Bad for us because of the results we got.
FWIW, I'd also like to see the alternate takes to see if Reeve delivered his lines slower with more emphasis.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 6, 2012 3:10:11 GMT -5
I wonder, though, if the offer was upfront- before shooting began with Lester or not.... I was under the understanding that they offered him joint director credit ONLY AFTER all was shot & edited--- and he was viewing the theatrical (didn't he say that he couldn't get past the paris opening, and then just stopped watching initially & just gave a flat 'no' for director's credit.)
I have such a low opinion of Lester for his choices, that I think he just was fine with trying to rebuild his career on Donner's back, and extra fine on not sharing credit whatsoever with Donner for SII. Though....when SIII came out- the cat was out of the bag as to the extent of Lester's talents at that point.
I attribute the changes more due to Lester's ego and the Salkind's faith in Lester's ability to complete a film. If a talented second unit director was chosen, with no movie credits to his name, then I think he/she would have been more amenable to just point and shoot Donner/Mank's blueprints.
Given Donner's guidance with the actors at that point- I doubt that the actors would have strayed too much from what Donner guided them to in STM. (Remember Marc McCLure's assessment of Richard Lester as an actor's director on the bts documentary? It wasn't favorable.)
But....because of Lester's ego...bam. He had to do a Frankenstein operation on it.
I have no idea why they couldn't just recast Brando with another male actor & keep what was shot.... or keep the Mank script. Sussanah York is great, but it wasn't what was intended....neither by Puzo nor by Donner....
Your theory may well be correct--- I just recall Donner saying that it was offered when they had a print, and that he had to take a look at it first regarding credit.
Ultimately, if they had chosen another director (or second unit director) to take over that wasn't so well established- I think he/she might have kept to the Mank script & tone as much as possible, and SII wouldn't be such a mess. But, what can one do?
I'm totally with you there. Donner was known for doing endless takes. Quite odd if the ones chosen by Thau/(or 25 years later-Donner) are really the best ones of the bunch for the repowering scenes... or the only ones. Donner never seemed to be a 'one take is all I need for everything' type of director like Lester or Ed Wood.
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Post by atp on Jan 6, 2012 3:17:29 GMT -5
Here's something else that I am curious about.
If Donner filmed ALL the Hackman footage for both STM and S2, why did Lex appear different between the films?
In the STM footage, he's dressed like a pimp, acts clownish and flamboyant like Liberace, and has an afro hairstyle wig. But in S2, he comes across more serious, has a conservative navy suit and a more normal hairstyle.
I can understand why Zod looks and acts differently between STM and S2 because of the influence of two directors. But the Hackman footage was filmed only by Donner, yet is so inconsistent.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 6, 2012 3:25:46 GMT -5
I think the only difference is that the character knows he's playing with fire way beyond his control when he's in the presence of Jor-el & the Phantom Zone Criminals, thus, the context is different--- and Lex has to be more well-behaved. It's like he's fearless of Superman (who he knows would never harm a fly) but in total fear of the other Kryptonians.
So, that's how I saw it anyways. I did think he was incredibly silly in STM, but in seeing SII and how he fits in, the portrayal seemed genius in the bigger scheme of Donner's vision for 1 & 2....
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Post by atp on Jan 6, 2012 3:33:50 GMT -5
But why is there no pimp outfit and afro wig in S2?
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Post by TylerDurden389 on Jan 6, 2012 3:38:05 GMT -5
I have no doubts that there's more takes, which are also better than the ones Thau gave us. I know this just based on the takes he used that weren't as good as the ones used in the theatrical/RIC. Like CAM said, hopefully with MOS, we'll get the last bits and pieces of S2 that we still haven't seen, or haven't been remastered.
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2012 10:28:43 GMT -5
But why is there no pimp outfit and afro wig in S2? You're kidding right? talk about the nitpick of all nitpicks. Luthor looks different in SII...to show the passage of time! The films were shot the same time but that doesn't mean they take place at exactly the same time. SII takes place days/weeks/months later. Even in STM Luthor changed clothes and wigs. He had various wigs. Like any person he just decided not to wear those specific clothes. Why should he wear one specific look much later on? By the time he hooked up with Zod and Co. he seemed to stay with them. I doubt he had time to go back to his lair to change cloths. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 6, 2012 13:55:14 GMT -5
Makes sense...
Plus, everything was tailored around the fact that Gene Hackman was being a bit of a prima dona and refused to shave his head, right?
But then again.... I suppose he could have constantly had the bald cap & supposedly Puzo had Luthor as a real nutjob- and if Luthor had the fro and the goofy suit around the villains, it probably would have called more attention to itself than Donner wanted during those scenes when the villains were around.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2012 22:33:23 GMT -5
Christ, has THIS thread turned into ANOTHER SII editing conversation? Ugh. UGGGGH.  Well, sorry to kill all that bullshit, but going back to the topic. I want to read Mank's bio! I bet it's a heck of a read. |
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Post by booshman on Jan 7, 2012 1:04:28 GMT -5
I want to read Mank's bio! I bet it's a heck of a read. It's a shame there can't be an audio book version read by Mank, I always enjoy listening to him on the commentaries and other special features. I want to get hold of Stamp's book too, I bet that's got some interesting tales in it. |
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