Superman II - The Hurst Cut

[hursty]

I had a cut made for me by a very generous person, I tried to include all the elements I love. And I used Lester's versions of Donner footage used in the theatrical, I don't the re-takes Donner used of his own work, they aren't what I'm used to

Here's the scene-by-scene breakdown:

1. Red WB Logo / Reeve Dedication

2. Space lead-in (similar to Lester)

3. Trial (DC)

4. Fade out from Phantom Zone (No DC Phantom Zone shots)

5. Missile Launched (DC)

6. Superman pushes missile into space (DC, no pool scene)

7. Missile explodes once, shockwaves "free!" villians (DC/Lester, bland

shot of Zod back)

8. Green Crystal (Lester, Thorne Fanfare)

9. Opening credits (DC Blue Credits with Lester-like flashbacks, taken

from the RKS edit, Williams Music)

10. Paris Sequence and Concorde (RIC), ends with elevator exploding

(new music cue added)

11. Orange Juicer (RIC)

12. Lex in Laundry (RIC)

13. Moon/Houston Control (RIC)

14. Lex Escapes Prison (RIC)

15. Niagara Falls Hotel Arrival (RIC)

16. Lex and Miss Tessmacher in the balloon (RIC)

17. Superman Rescues Boy (RIC, camera guy removed)

18. Lex And Miss Tessmacher approach fortress in snowmobile (RIC) 19. Lex And Miss Tessmacher in Fortress (DC with a few Lester takes added, no toilet flush)

20. "She Found It" / Lex finds Three Alpha Waves / Lex Heads South (RIC)

21. Lois Jumps In Niagara Falls (RIC)

22. Zod In Lake / Ursa Fries Snake (RIC)

23. Pink Bear (RIC, Night Flight removed)

24. Zod Meets Sheriff (RIC)

25. Superman Flies Lois To Fortress, Daytime (RIC)

26. Villains In Diner / Non Kills Boy (RIC)

27. Superman Gets Groceries and Flower (RIC, trimmed Lois leaving crystal on floor)

28. Reporter / Non Zaps Jeep / Flamethrower (RIC)

29. "Where's Superman?" (RIC, Sports Lady and Japanese fish guy removed)

30. Mortar Sheck / Ursa Blows A Kiss (RIC)

31. Superman Cooks Souflee (RIC)

32. Champagne / Lois Gets Nightgown From Purse (RIC)

33. "I Am... General Zod." (RIC)

34. Superman Depowering (Jor-El instead of Lara, Lois in Nightgown, no body doubles of Reeve)

35. "Just say you love me" (RIC)

36. Mt. Rushmore Destruction (RIC)

37. Superman Sleeps With Lois (RIC)

38. Washington Monument destruction (DC, Rotoscoped TV shot removed)

39. White House Invasion (RIC)

40. Clark at Diner (RIC)

41. Clark's Journey Back To Fortress (RIC)

42. Clark Says He Failed (RIC, "mother?" audio removed)

43. Clark Repowering (DC with a few Lester crystal shots added)

44. Lex Visits Oval Office (RIC)

45. "He'll be here!" (RIC)

46. Villians Invade Daily Planet (RIC)

47. "Would You Care To Step Outside?" (RIC)

48. Metropolis Battle Beginning (RIC)

49. Non punches Superman into Statue of Liberty (RIC, DC)

50. Superman punches Non into spire (DC)

51. Metropolis Battle Middle (RIC)

52. Wind Blowing (RIC, gags removed)

53. "Our Victory Is Complete" (RIC)

54. Journey To Fortress With Lex and Lois (RIC)

55. Breaking Into Fortress (RIC)

56. Battle Inside Fortress / Superman Switches It (RIC)

57. Arctic Police (RIC, "Smallville Strongboy" line removed)

58. Superman destroys Fortress (DC landing, DC Heat Vision)

59. Superman Says Goodbye on Ice Floe (RIC)

60. Flight Back To Balcony (RIC)

61. Balcony Goodbye (RIC)

62. Next Morning Daily Planet / Amnesia Kiss (RIC)

63. Diner Revenge (RIC)

64. Flag To White House (RIC)

65. Ending Credits (RIC, Thorne Music)

Yes, there's lots of RIC included but its great footage, it has to be in there! And yeah, missile frees the villains and yet Paris is retained!!

Best. Cut. Ever.

[crazy_asian_man]

Nice choices. I'm partial to more Donner stuff, but it's an interesting list. For sure, ever since the RDC came out, I think few are satisfied with either the overcut RDC or the Lester theatrical...

[hursty]

There is as much Donner stuff as possible. But I did include Paris and its a good set-piece and such a lot went into filming that sequence, be a crime to omit it

[Knight]

34. Superman Depowering (Jor-El instead of Lara, Lois in Nightgown, no body doubles of Reeve)

So is this Superman in the suit (as in LC) talking to Jor El and not Lara? Or the white shirt and black trousers get up?

Great choices by the way... I espc like the opening,recap THEN green crystal/Thorne/credits.

[hursty]

Thanks mate

He's in his normal clothes, I think in hindsight I'd prefer him in the suit, but he is talking to his 'mother' in the scene and it would be problematic to edit out use of the word 'mother'

I guess in his approach to wanting to become human, he would shed the suit to show his intentions.

Yeah, I always loved the recap within the credits when I was a kid so I wanted to retain then, thinking about it now, I'd like the whole Superman two creds to play out, but there wouldn't be Brando, so RDC had to be used. Means I've got effing Michael Thau in them too. Praps get in Stu Baird's solo cred from STM maybe.

What I like best is that the missile explosion and the paris scenes are both in.

[Knight]

I always for some reason loved the sound FX/transition of the zone coming down over the villains, Zod's tortured threat to Jor-El and the green crystal credits segue.

Yea,trying to edit Jor El into the scene of Superman in the suit is a total pain. Tried it several times but didn't work (if anyone has or can edit those two together then I'd like to see it...)

[hursty]

Well, my man edited Lois in her nightdress into the scene, did a great job too.

Lester's re-cap of Zod's trial had to go, the crap voice-over, and the fact that instead of the insidious plot to begin a new order....Zod's crime was merely snapping a red crystal - Had to GO!

[booshman]

Mar 20, 2012 5:46:26 GMT -5 Knight said:

(if anyone has or can edit those two together then I'd like to see it...)

I had a crack at it for my last fanedit. It's not perfect, but here's how it came out.

vimeo.com/38841599

[verisimilitude]

"Uh, I know I'm gonna get rapped in the mouth for this but"... isn't the RIC the 4:3 televised stuff?

A lot of what you're describing is found in the two actual films, is it not? Why so much RIC? I know I'm missing something, here. Forgive me. I'm 43 and haven't had my coffee, yet.

[verisimilitude]

Mar 20, 2012 7:11:32 GMT -5 booshman said:

Mar 20, 2012 5:46:26 GMT -5 Knight said:

(if anyone has or can edit those two together then I'd like to see it...)

I had a crack at it for my last fanedit. It's not perfect, but here's how it came out.

vimeo.com/38841599

I thought that turned out great, Boosh! Very nicely done. Smooth and professional.

[hursty]

Mar 20, 2012 11:27:53 GMT -5 verisimilitude said:

"Uh, I know I'm gonna get rapped in the mouth for this but"... isn't the RIC the 4:3 televised stuff?

A lot of what you're describing is found in the two actual films, is it not? Why so much RIC? I know I'm missing something, here. Forgive me. I'm 43 and haven't had my coffee, yet.

A lot of the RIC isn't in either version

Plus, if the RDC used different takes. I didn't want it

[verisimilitude]

I totally get what you're saying, Hurst. Maybe I haven't seen the RIC in a while, but are you saying that every instance of RIC footage you mentioned in the breakdown, refers to footage that is unique to the RIC, and not to be found elsewhere?

[hursty]

Well, I think a lot of it is due to framing the scenes aswell, I wanted it fullscreen.

In terms of little additions of dialogue and scene extensions I felt RIC was the way to go

But I do think that less of it could be used now i think about it

[TylerDurden389]

To me, the RIC will always be the most "complete' form of S2. I think I speak for almost everyone when I say that, in regards to the Donner Cut, all we wanted was the RIC remastered with the Brando scenes re-instated, and the Lester camp removed/toned down significantly.

For me, these are the scenes that should be remastered and released (granted a blu-ray of the RIC AS-IS would be optimal, but I don't think it'll ever happen):

1. Concorde scene. I don't care if this was originally shot for S1. I want it in. After Supes' repowering, before he appears at the DP would be my choice for placement. Any other suggestions are welcome.

2. Extended villains moon dialogue/White House dialogue. I like Ursa to be as evil as possible.

3. Extended dialogue btwn. Supes and Lois outside the FOS. Since ending the film with lois knowing his secret AND being ok with it is my personal best ending choice, the added lois lines (buying my own little rainbow...etc) helps emphasize this. As well as the music (they re-used the music from the pink bear reveal scene).

Again, if the RIC was released officially, you can bet that nearly ALL of it would appear in my cut. But if I could only choose 3 scenes/moments, these would be them. Oh, and I didn't mention the deleted scenes (bully elevator, arctic police) because every fan cut I have uses them already

The only deleted scene I no longer care for is the villains and co. outside the fortress trying to get in. Yes we get a funny Lex moment, but it doesn't make sense for Zod to tell Supes "prepare to die", then a few minutes later say he will live forever as his slave. Contradiction much? Also, forever? I never figured any of them were immortal. Oh, and bad wire work for Stamp's stunt double when they lift off. Though I suppose that could be fixed digitally.

[booshman]

Mar 21, 2012 8:44:19 GMT -5 TylerDurden389 said:

1. Concorde scene. I don't care if this was originally shot for S1. I want it in. After Supes' repowering, before he appears at the DP would be my choice for placement. Any other suggestions are welcome.

2. Extended villains moon dialogue/White House dialogue. I like Ursa to be as evil as possible.

3. Extended dialogue btwn. Supes and Lois outside the FOS. Since ending the film with lois knowing his secret AND being ok with it is my personal best ending choice, the added lois lines (buying my own little rainbow...etc) helps emphasize this. As well as the music (they re-used the music from the pink bear reveal scene).

1. I don't care for this scene at all. It looks really cobbled together and the last flying effect, the cardboard cut-out barrel roll, looks awful.

2. I can take or leave these additions. being more used to the theatrical cut, I don't really miss them not being there.

3. I agree here, I really missed those lines in the Donner Cut. It's weird the they went through all the trouble of unearthing the footage and getting it in a useable state, and then with the goal of showing Superman II as originally conceived, edited parts like this out.

[hursty]

To me, the RIC will always be the most "complete' form of S2. I think I speak for almost everyone when I say that, in regards to the Donner Cut, all we wanted was the RIC remastered with the Brando scenes re-instated, and the Lester camp removed/toned down significantly.

You certainly speak for me. And thats pretty much what I've tried to acheive in this version.

1. Concorde scene. I don't care if this was originally shot for S1. I want it in. After Supes' repowering, before he appears at the DP would be my choice for placement. Any other suggestions are welcome.

Well, exactly where it is, as I've retained Paris.

2. Extended villains moon dialogue/White House dialogue. I like Ursa to be as evil as possible

.

I just wish Zod's voice was relooped to sound all deep like everything else.

3. Extended dialogue btwn. Supes and Lois outside the FOS. Since ending the film with lois knowing his secret AND being ok with it is my personal best ending choice, the added lois lines (buying my own little rainbow...etc) helps emphasize this. As well as the music (they re-used the music from the pink bear reveal scene).

The two break-up scenes, outside the fortress and then on the balcony, they are absolutely vital and Lois's hope that she'd be able to cope, followed by her inability to so do at work the next day adds weight to Clark's decision to make her forget.

Again, if the RIC was released officially, you can bet that nearly ALL of it would appear in my cut. But if I could only choose 3 scenes/moments, these would be them. Oh, and I didn't mention the deleted scenes (bully elevator, arctic police) because every fan cut I have uses them already

I like the Arctic police such a lot, it resolves Lex's fate perfectly and just looks great. the bully elevator scene isnt vital but it does segue nicely into the revenge on Rocky.

The only deleted scene I no longer care for is the villains and co. outside the fortress trying to get in. Yes we get a funny Lex moment, but it doesn't make sense for Zod to tell Supes "prepare to die", then a few minutes later say he will live forever as his slave. Contradiction much? Also, forever? I never figured any of them were immortal. Oh, and bad wire work for Stamp's stunt double when they lift off. Though I suppose that could be fixed digitally

No more a contradiction than Supes test in Luthor's lair that we all love despite it. I love Lex's dialogue 'He is 1, we are 3, its the power of 3 that will defeat him' - Works for me.

[TylerDurden389]

I know one of the fan edits (as well as my own) have simply tweaked Stamp's voice pitch so that it matches with everything else. Simple edit to do (though the music in the b.g gets deepened as well. I'm sure there's a way to isolate the voice track, I just haven't figured out how). As for "he is 1, we are 3", the dialogue can be moved to the Metro Battle and still have the same effect. And if someone were to rotscope Zod in that scene and put it into the Metro battle (so that we actually SEE him say it), that would be even better.

Personally, I'm not crazy about the line because we already hear Lex say it. As well as Zod repeating it in the DC scene when he throws down the ultimatum a minute later. No need to have him say it twice in 2 minutes lol.

[verisimilitude]

Okay, thanks for the clarity on the RIC. You want things to be fullscreen, so I can certainly see why the RIC is so prominently featured in the cut your friend did for you.

I have to concur with everything y'all said about the Supes/Lois dialogue outside the fortress. ALL of it should have made it into the RDC. I can't tell you how disappointed I was to see that it was trimmed, when I watched RDC for the first time. Just WRONG.

I must admit, I've never been much for the Concorde. Honestly, it feels like STM Air Force One "light." Of course, this is all personal preference, but for me, it fails to add anything of significance.

But I absolutely agree that some of the best takes are to be found in the RIC, which is why I incorporated just about everything I could, audiowise, and replaced the RDC and Theatrical audio, accordingly, such as the balloon scene, and the toilet joke at the FOS. I use the RIC version of both, but with the video from RDC and S2 Theatrical. Worked out great, IMO.

I'm even toying with the idea of somehow, trying to make the "rainbow" dialogue from Lois work, by showing other video footage, while we just hear her say it. Perhaps a distant shot of the two of them standing there, or even a sort of "flashback" dream-like sequence of them flying together in STM or something, with her voice to punctuate the poignancy. Not sure, but y'all are inspiring me to try!

[crazy_asian_man]

The only deleted scene I no longer care for is the villains and co. outside the fortress trying to get in. Yes we get a funny Lex moment, but it doesn't make sense for Zod to tell Supes "prepare to die", then a few minutes later say he will live forever as his slave. Contradiction much? Also, forever? I never figured any of them were immortal. Oh, and bad wire work for Stamp's stunt double when they lift off. Though I suppose that could be fixed digitally.

I'm probably one of the few that LOVE that scene. To me, it achieves a few things- Also, while I agree that it is a contradiction to 'prepare to die' then live later as his slave--- it's not that much more contradictory than trying to kill him in the Metropolis streets either if that's the case, too. (especially with the irc: "Kill him!!!")

The performances give us a further bit of how Donner would have had set the tone for the villains, even if for a few seconds. Even though little is said, Donner really used their look to maximum advantage. They come off stronger saying nothing than the over-the-top two-dimensional talky Lester villains.

Also, the invisible 'barrier' I imagine helps sell how they (originally) had no door design for the crystal chamber either in the Donner version. I suppose that since it had to look like it could house a couple of people ("Step inside, zod, we'll talk")---- I assume that- unless they were going to redesign it with plexiglass doors later on- that it was suggested that...

But- in seeing it, I thought it was a great suprise to see and hearkened back to Jorel's advance thinking to protect it against other Kryptonians. I dug that. It's only a minute or so, but I really wish they had reinserted it into the film.

[crazy_asian_man]

I must admit, I've never been much for the Concorde. Honestly, it feels like STM Air Force One "light." Of course, this is all personal preference, but for me, it fails to add anything of significance.

I think the Concorde is a nice touch for the beginning of the film somewhere, before the pacing ramps up. Also, it brings back the memory about what a big deal the Concorde was at that period of time for being the fastest commercial airplane at the time. (Is it still the fastest? I don't know, but it was big in the news around that time frame)

But I absolutely agree that some of the best takes are to be found in the RIC, which is why I incorporated just about everything I could, audiowise, and replaced the RDC and Theatrical audio, accordingly, such as the balloon scene, and the toilet joke at the FOS. I use the RIC version of both, but with the video from RDC and S2 Theatrical. Worked out great, IMO.

Agreed..... either the best editor is/are the ones who put together the IRC, or else the editor kept the best takes untouched by Donner/Baird in the first place....before Thau got to it.

I'm even toying with the idea of somehow, trying to make the "rainbow" dialogue from Lois work, by showing other video footage, while we just hear her say it. Perhaps a distant shot of the two of them standing there, or even a sort of "flashback" dream-like sequence of them flying together in STM or something, with her voice to punctuate the poignancy. Not sure, but y'all are inspiring me to try!

That's a REALLY difficult nut to crack. A flashback could be more distracting than the value it puts in- but, sadly, there are few 'cutaway' choices, too. One idea might be to suggest that they're standing there for hours rather than minutes talking with a 'cross-dissolve' montage- during the time you want to re-insert the dialogue - with time blurred and since you don't have clean footage of them saying those extra lines, have a cross-dissolve of the extra Thau footage of him holding her from different angles- then cross-dissolve back to the regular dialogue.... similar to what they did with the Blade Runner interview with Rachel- with cross-dissolves to suggest that more time was taking place than really was (plus you didn't need to see their lips talking the whole time).

Just an idea....although, of course, the obvious solution would be for WB to listen to us all here and re-release the IRC in widescreen HD like Universal did for "Dune" and save everyone the trouble.... *sigh*

[verisimilitude]

With regard to the "Villains outside the fortress" scene, I suspect that I'll be adding it in, for the V-Cut, CAM. It's growing on me. I may tweak it a bit. Not 100% sure. But likely, it will be there.

I must admit, I love the Lex bit. I'm just such a huge fan of what Hackman did with that character.

[crazy_asian_man]

It's weird the they went through all the trouble of unearthing the footage and getting it in a useable state, and then with the goal of showing Superman II as originally conceived, edited parts like this out.

It's INFURIATING. I hope they didn't end up throwing the footage into the dumpster once they finished hacking up the RDC. I also miss the end of the incredible one tracking shot where Ursa says: "And men....to kill!"--- while the performance sounds a bit goofy, if you rewind a few seconds, it's REALLY amazing that there is NO cut in between the staging of Ursa's closeup --- to Zod's walking, thinking about his dense molecular structure- to a new Zod closeup- to "men to kill"- and them preparing to fly off!

Wanted to see that restored in the RDC pretty bad, but sadly, it's the least of the RDC's sins....

[verisimilitude]

I must admit that "Men...to kill" always made me wince. Just too darned cheesy, for me. It has nothing to do with Ursa's high voice at that moment. It's the line, itself.

For me, the way this moment is handled in the Theatrical cut, is perfect. The music, as Zod says, "...finally, to RULE" leads nicely into the takeoff, and we're done. Anything more or less here, spoils it for me. Again, just personal preference...which is why every fan cut is different.

[crazy_asian_man]

With regard to the "Villains outside the fortress" scene, I suspect that I'll be adding it in, for the V-Cut, CAM. It's growing on me. I may tweak it a bit. Not 100% sure. But likely, it will be there.

That's great to hear- even in standing in the background, the villains look 'right' to me, as there's already too little of the 'Donner' version of the villains in any of the cuts as is- for me, it HAD to be in there.

Looking forward to more news on the v-cut, too!

[crazy_asian_man]

I must admit that "Men...to kill" always made me wince. Just too darned cheesy, for me. It has nothing to do with Ursa's high voice at that moment. It's the line, itself.

I can see that- the performance is a little...weird, too.... but we never really see that much of Ursa (as was intended) anyhow, that I was ok with it--- and, as mentioned--- like so many small touches with Donner's work in STM/SII- it's an AMAZING choreographed one-shot--- would have love to at least seen a separate section of extended/alternate takes--- after all, so many other much less worthy movies have an 'alternate /extended takes' section on dvd, why can't SII? *sigh again*