Keith
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Post by Keith on Aug 10, 2012 20:54:21 GMT -5
DC should not be making their movies in a separate universe anymore. They should all be in a shared universe. If Superman isn't tied into Justice League or even Batman, I don't think that's a good idea at all. I still wonder if WB even has a clue as to what they are doing. They have the worst track record.. so we'll see.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 10, 2012 21:04:20 GMT -5
Ditto, Keith. Yeah, but would you really want that? Routh in a Justice League movie and Cavill in a Superman movie? At the same time? That idea is putrid. I'd be happy to see Routh back since I enjoyed him as Superman (it does give something different for those who want it) but in some peoples eyes that could undermine Cavill. Maybe there should be one Superman at a time. If the role IS Cavills let it be Cavills. WB didn't cross Bale and Nolan the LAST time JL was debated. They only wanted ONE Batman around while they did their films and thats what they got. But I think the film should have Superman even if its in SOME capacity. Just stick a Cavill cameo in there somewhere. There have been Avengers teams without Captain America (just like there have been JLA's without Supes) but is that what most people wanted in the movie? |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Aug 11, 2012 11:04:05 GMT -5
it's still to early to see if this version of JL actually gets any legs at all.
while i DO think JL should have cavill as superman, tied to MOS and should "share" with the flash, shazam, wonder woman and GL(2?) projects that are in the pipeline.
sure- avengers truly benefited from the foundation of 5 (FIVE!) prequels, and if WB really want to get a JL movie by the time avengers II comes out they can't possibly be that far along.
i'm also not sure that snyder categorically said that "man of steel/cavil" would absolutely NOT be a part of JL. when he was specifically asked about that sort of thing at SDCC what he said was (paraphrase) :
"..superman is the crown jewel of DC- once we get HIS house in order then we'll see about (that)"
if MOS does well WB is without doubt going to want MOSII to be put together straight away. looking at the clock i'd say MOS II would be the same summer or the summer after JL if they manage to get the 2015/16 slot.
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Aug 11, 2012 11:10:46 GMT -5
on one hand- WB has never had a problem with two unrelated versions of a character being in the media at the same time. - when "superman returns" was using routh, tom welling was still in the middle of smallville. - when JL was in pre-production nolan had to put the kai-bash on it (thank gawd) heck, even marvel is planning a HULK tv series unrelated to avengers  from where WB is sitting, HALF of marvel is doing the "shared" thing, the other half (fox) isn't (x-men/fant 4/ spider man) and the WB/premiere animated films have been very well received and only rarely have any connection ( the "superman" of "superman doomsday" is NOT the superman of "all-star") so from where they're sitting they might be thinking it's not necessary to "share" the universe as long as people like the story. i'd almost be happy with that if the quality of TDK/TDKR is there for MOS and subsequent movies. |
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Post by Jor-L5150 on Aug 11, 2012 11:16:04 GMT -5
another possibility is that WB might have the balls to do a JL movie that doesnt have superman at all - or only referred to peripherally. when snyder was asked about who'd win in a fight superman or batman he (understandably) chuckled. in a world with superman- what kind of threat could challenge HIM, and still have a need for aquaman or mortals like batman and robin?  if they're going for big cinematic "realistic" fantasy then i'd see letting certain concepts be independent. maybe it could be established that superman has left earth to go catch a meteor, or is busy with events of MOS II, and a few others are inspired by him to use their peculiar abilities to take care of some emergency while he's gone? i'd LIKE that! have superman established but really really BIG and inspirational and while he's doing his thing GL, flash, jonn jonnz and wonder woman follow his example to honor his role in the world. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 11:38:40 GMT -5
You could have a pretty heavy-hitting JL without ANY of the big three. In fact, if I had to guess, that's probably what we'll get while Supes/Bats/WW franchises are still in a state of flux. They'll probably stay away from Green Arrow right now, too.
Green Lantern (perhaps Jon Stewart to distance this from the GL flick?)
Flash
Hawkgirl
Martian Manhunter (gotta have an alien!)
Red Tornado (gotta have a robot!)
The Atom
Blue Beetle (the Jaimie Reyes version, to fill the cliche of "showing the new guy the ropes" story)
That's some pretty hefty power-levels, and most of 'em have origins you can get out of the way in a sentence of exposition.
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Post by starchild on Aug 11, 2012 11:59:54 GMT -5
You could have a pretty heavy-hitting JL without ANY of the big three. In fact, if I had to guess, that's probably what we'll get while Supes/Bats/WW franchises are still in a state of flux. They'll probably stay away from Green Arrow right now, too. Green Lantern (perhaps Jon Stewart to distance this from the GL flick?) Flash Hawkgirl Martian Manhunter (gotta have an alien!) Red Tornado (gotta have a robot!) The Atom Blue Beetle (the Jaimie Reyes version, to fill the cliche of "showing the new guy the ropes" story) That's some pretty hefty power-levels, and most of 'em have origins you can get out of the way in a sentence of exposition. ... and to have a Justice League Movie without the big three Superman/Batman/Wonder Woman ... is just not right to me. I will not see it if those three were left out in the cold! |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 12:14:08 GMT -5
It's not ideal, but I can see why they could be left out. There's a lot of baggage with the big three, and if WB isn't hip deep in a shared universe, it's tough.
Now, I don't necessarily think that a shared universe to the degree that Marvel has done is NECESSARY, but it is what I would prefer. But I'd rather see NO Superman in a JL film than a Superman that conflicts with a franchise they're in the process of trying to establish.
Personally, I've always felt that Batman has no place on the Justice League anyway, and I think Wonder Woman is dull. I also have my doubts as to whether characters like Flash, Red Tornado, Martian Manhunter, or the Atom could carry their own films, let alone franchises. So why not leave the standalone flicks for the heavy hitters like Superman and Batman, and let Justice League be the place where these other awesome characters get a chance to shine?
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 12:15:02 GMT -5
maybe it could be established that superman has left earth to go catch a meteor, or is busy with events of MOS II, and a few others are inspired by him to use their peculiar abilities to take care of some emergency while he's gone? i'd LIKE that! have superman established but really really BIG and inspirational and while he's doing his thing GL, flash, jonn jonnz and wonder woman follow his example to honor his role in the world. I like this. |
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Post by SupermanUF on Aug 11, 2012 12:21:56 GMT -5
Honestly, f*ck this then if Cavill wont be in it and f*ck WB for being so stupid.
The idea that they'd have someone else playing the part while Cavill is the current torchbearer is despicable.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 12:36:11 GMT -5
It's one of the reasons why I'd rather not have Superman in the flick at all than have them undermine their main guy.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 11, 2012 13:21:40 GMT -5
WB should just get all their sh** together before doing JL instead of rushing it get in on the Avengers hype. Get their characters big screen problems FIXED then figure out what they want to do. Its clear they don't have a clue. I'd rather have NO JL movie than a sh*tty or subpar one. on one hand- WB has never had a problem with two unrelated versions of a character being in the media at the same time. - when "superman returns" was using routh, tom welling was still in the middle of smallville. - when JL was in pre-production nolan had to put the kai-bash on it (thank gawd) The thing with Smallville is that Welling WASN'T Superman yet. We had two versions of the character but they were set during two very different and far apart eras of the characters life/career. Not as much of a conflict. What WB may be doing with JL and MOS is much worse than the SR/Smallville situation. The Bruce Wayne tv show got nixed partly because WB didn't want two versions of Batman (on the big and small screen). We didn't get Batman on Birds of Prey more partly because once again WB didn't want it to clash with their film plans for Batman. These kinds of embargos have been around for decades. another possibility is that WB might have the balls to do a JL movie that doesn't have superman at all - or only referred to peripherally. when snyder was asked about who'd win in a fight superman or batman he (understandably) chuckled. in a world with superman- what kind of threat could challenge HIM, and still have a need for aquaman or mortals like batman and robin? if they're going for big cinematic "realistic" fantasy then I'd see letting certain concepts be independent. maybe it could be established that superman has left earth to go catch a meteor, or is busy with events of MOS II, and a few others are inspired by him to use their peculiar abilities to take care of some emergency while he's gone? I'd LIKE that! have superman established but really really BIG and inspirational and while he's doing his thing, flash, jonn jonnz and wonder woman follow his example to honor his role in the world. If Superman's not a big part of the movie they should just work in a Cavill cameo. That way the film doesn't depend on Superman but he's still in it. You could have a pretty heavy-hitting JL without ANY of the big three. In fact, if I had to guess, that's probably what we'll get while Supes/Bats/WW franchises are still in a state of flux. They'll probably stay away from Green Arrow right now, too. Green Lantern (perhaps Jon Stewart to distance this from the GL flick?) Flash Hawkgirl Martian Manhunter (gotta have an alien!) Red Tornado (gotta have a robot!) The Atom Blue Beetle (the Jaimie Reyes version, to fill the cliche of "showing the new guy the ropes" story) That's some pretty hefty power-levels, and most of 'em have origins you can get out of the way in a sentence of exposition. It could be a good movie with that lineup...but it still looks like the B Team and that limits the chances of success more.  We've been here before with no Supes/Bats/WW and the same criticisms got leveled by fans and the press. Some of those Avengers rights were at different studios at one point and if Marvel could get them back and clear the licensing BS red tape it makes WB look really lazy not to make this happen. The biggest problem with getting these DC characters together over the years was always inter-company department issues, licensing issues, and production company issues. If Marvel could make sure that was all clear WB should try. Knowing WB they may just want more merchandising streams, which they would get from totally separate properties. In their minds two different Superman will sell more action figures and shit than one. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 16:14:08 GMT -5
Black Widow, Hawkeye, and even Thor and Iron Man were "B" level in the public consciousness until recently. I don't think that has anything to do with it. The JL TV pilot failed because it SUCKED not because of a lack of the big three.
There's a huge appetite for superheroes right now, and WB would be stupid not to capitalize on it. So, rather than just copy Marvel (which, at this point, would require almost a ten year plan), why not jump in feet first with a Justice League movie? I don't think it's necessary to establish Flash and Green Lantern (cough) in their own films before you can show them as part of a team. I mean, it would be ideal, but it isn't necessary. That would be like Fox saying that they needed to do origin movies for Professor X, Magneto, and Wolverine before they could make the first X-Men movie.
Now, if anyone can screw this up, it's WB. Green Lantern should have been pretty easy, and they blew that pretty bad. But I don't think the Marvel method, despite the overwhelming creative and financial success, is the only way to approach this. Jump in with a Justice League movie that acknowledges in subtle ways that, while they might not be on screen, there is a Superman and a Batman somewhere in that universe.
Unlike ten or fifteen years ago, the general public really UNDERSTANDS the superhero concept now. They've never been so omnipresent on tv and in merchandising and in the movies. And it's not just a small group of them anymore. I think these concepts are now so ubiquitous and archetypical that you can just jump in with "team of super-powered badasses" as the concept, just like we had in any action movie ensemble in the 70s and 80s. In some ways, Marvel's introduction of a shared universe has almost made the concept unnecessary for a Justice League movie. They already did all the heavy lifting!
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 11, 2012 18:42:30 GMT -5
Black Widow, Hawkeye, even Thor and Iron Man were "B" level in the public consciousness until recently. I don't think that has anything to do with it. The JL TV pilot failed because it SUCKED not because of a lack of the big three. Well no sh*t. Of course the quality had something to do with it. But people were joking about the JLA pilot before anyone had even seen it as not being a big deal. Why SHOULDN'T the JL be a big deal? Is it easier to sell people on the concept if they have characters they know something about or with JUST B characters? You didn't see the Superfriends or JLU without the big three. DC's best foot was put forward and those shows were sold on the names of THE most recognizable characters. There's a reason Superman and Batman are so popular. They are two of the best if not THE best characters of their kind. As for Thor Black Widow and Hawkeye yeah they are B characters...maybe C characters but they made Avengers with the teams Big three.They didn't just rush ahead with ONLY those other three B and C characters. Iron Man Thor and Cap are the teams top core guys. Marvel was smart enough to put the teams best out there. Understanding the concept just means people will know when they don't see the best. Whats wrong with taking the time to do as good a job as possible? DC's whole f***n problem is they jump in feet first with their DC properties. Just throwing a JL movie out there ASAP with any old heroes any halfass story and any gun for hire director they can boss around makes it look MORE like they are following Marvel and The Avengers leads. A kneejerk reaction to strike while the iron is hot instead of the best and biggest film possible. WB's whole problem is they don't seem to have a clue what to do. Taking their time and making the best film possible shows that WB is serious about making a Justice League film regardless of what Marvel is doing and isn't worried about some kind of race to get the film out. I'll take a great JL movie in five or ten years instead of a piece of sh*t one in two. |
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 18:53:31 GMT -5
So, just to make sure I understand you here, are you saying that the only way to do this "right" is by using the Marvel approach? If so, I disagree. If the script, director, and cast are good, the shared universe is a bonus and not an essential component.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 11, 2012 19:20:24 GMT -5
No. And the Marvel approach is NOT just about using the big three. Thats ridiculous. Superfriends and JLU were doing that before Marvel studios was anything. How is it the Marve approach to use the Leagues most popular characters?
Is the DCAU the "Marvel approach?" No. They did something like that a decade ago.
What I'm saying is take the time and do it RIGHT. Shared universe or not. But they can have Cavill in JL without connecting the stories of MOS and JL. Doing it without Superman or Batman just to get the movie out ASAP just seems a case of wanting instant gratification. Either way you slice it they are reacting to what Marvels doing. Rushing as film out to capitalize on Marvels success is them reacting just as badly.
If they have to have the films separate do JL after the individual film(s) run their course.
Just so I get YOU right if Cavills not in it you don't want another Superman right? I'd rather they have Cavill but if its another actor the world won't end. And let the movie take as long as it takes.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 19:43:18 GMT -5
Correct. I don't want another actor as Superman in a Justice League film while Cavill is the lead in the current Superman franchise. I would prefer to have no Superman at all in a Justice League film if that's the case.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 11, 2012 20:03:43 GMT -5
No Superman and a different Superman both present problems IMO. I'd rather they just get their sh** together and make the biggest film they can and do it right. Whats the problem with that? Why is instant gratification so important?
A JL film starring a character from a FAILED movie from a year ago, another from a failed tv show from twenty one years ago, a joke character from Entourage and Family Guy and a couple of others most people have never heard of doesn't sound like a "surefire hit" shared universe or not.
I hate it myself but thats where the DC characters not named Superman and Batman stand. WB may as well be selling Mystery Men 2. If they are doing the Justice League don't skimp. May as well just do solo movies if thats the case or instead of a JLA movie do a Doom Patrol movie or Teen Titans movie or Justice Society or a Flash and Green Lantern team up.
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Post by Valentine Smith on Aug 11, 2012 21:03:02 GMT -5
I think there's a lot of baggage and expectations that come with putting Superman in a Justice League movie that weren't necessarily there with, say, Captain America in the Avengers movie. This is mostly just because, right now, I think audiences are confused about just what this new Superman is gonna be.
I really don't think Superman is an essential component of a Justice League movie, and I'd almost just rather see Superman's universe get developed in the new franchise, since we've never seen that properly done before, without having to worry about how he can be part of Justice League as well. I think if it's done right, these "second string" characters are more than adequate. Neither Hulk movie really connected with audiences, but Hulk was the breakout character in Avengers, strangely enough.
Basically, let's say MoS is good, and then Justice League is announced for 2015, possibly concurrently with MoS2. Justice League then becomes the film that starts to flesh out the idea of a shared DCU, without us having to wait for a series of films to seed a Justice League movie, or for WB to reintroduce Batman, or whatever else.
Not that I'm gonna complain if Superman is in the movie, mind you. I just think it could work just fine, and he wouldn't really be missed.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 11, 2012 21:34:17 GMT -5
If MOS WORKS then those "baggage" issues become fewer. Thats why they should wait and see what MOS does before they get too deep into a JL movie. The same way they maybe should have waited before they got too deep into a Catwoman movie before Batman Begins. Their plan for stand alone movies failed there because they didn't know what they were doing and the film blew. If MOS works it could also help generate interest for the DC brand on the big sceen. If people are confused about MOS let em find out what MOS IS first.
The problem is a JL movie without its biggest stars essentially has a hook thats no better than what they could do with another team or another character. I guarantee you a Worlds Finest movie would generate more interest than a Supes and Bats-less Justice League movie. Whats the point of a half assed movie?
Does the JL NAME alone guarantee some kind of big interest? Not really. Name value hasn't meant shit for a lot of superhero movies. The same money that goes into JL could go into another team movie like JSA or Suicide Squad or Doom Patrol or LOSH or Teen Titans which DO at least have the plus of being a lot more different from Avengers than JLA does. LOSH looks like far less of a knockoff and has the hook of a young teen cast.
Sticking Cavills Superman in JL in a small role isn't going to have a ruinous affect on a MOS series (assuming there even is one). If WB doesn't have the talent to make it work none of these movies should even be made by them after what Marvel did with Avengers.
The reason WB would do this without the big three is because they are too lazy, too desperate, or too greedy to do JL as the biggest most exciting comic book movie ever that it COULD be and those are just flimsy pathetic excuses.
Your Hulk analogy doesn't really work because not only is he one of Marvels more well known characters (a lot more well known than Hawkman or Plastic Man or Blue Beetle) and he had the luxury of being in a team movie where anticipation was BUILT UP. A JL movie like the one you propose isn't going to have that kind of build up by the very nature of what it is.
Hulk has at least had SOME sucess...somewhere...sometime. has Blue Beetle ever been worth a shit outside of comics on his own? The problems with the Hulk were more down to execution in his solo movies and the nature of the CGI problems. Marvel also still pulled off Avengers on time despite problems with TIH.
I can be patient and see WB crack the code to make the biggest best JL movie that could be made rather than see them throw stuff out there randomly to see what sticks. Thats been WB's whole problem for 15 years...at least.
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Post by starchild on Aug 11, 2012 21:47:37 GMT -5
Interesting Reading Material from all of you here ... I enjoyed it.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 11, 2012 23:59:17 GMT -5
Remember the last time WB tried to mount a Justice League production? George Miller has been a great genre director in the past but that movie was a disaster in the making. I just don't understand HOW they botched it all that badly after Nolan had already made Batman Begins and The Dark Knight.
Then after that they went on to make bullsh** like Jonah Hex...which shouldn't have been that hard to get right. And they made Jonah Hex after they made Wild Wild West. Shoulnd't that have taught them something?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 21:13:15 GMT -5
I wouldn't worry. This is the WB (insert that fucking frog singing). This thing has no chance of getting the greenlight. At best, we'll keep getting subpar stand-alones. Then, after WB fucks up GL2, Flash, and possibly MoS, they'll desparately try to re-boot Batman, again.
Or, WB throws a shitload of cash at JK Rowling to allow for original HP scripts, recast and re-boot that little money-making bastard.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 12, 2012 22:10:44 GMT -5
Thats hilarious! GL2 ;D
Constantine was a prime example of WB not thinking things through and being more worried about money. And it was one of their biggest comic book movie successes.
I do want to see those costumes from Millers JL movie...as bad as it sounded. WETA being hired made me curious.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2012 22:27:47 GMT -5
Are they power-walking toward a crisis? |
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