Man of Steel - *Spoilers*

[atp]

Would you have liked for Clark to have a different accent as part of his Daily Planet disguise?

Too many people know Kal El is frim Kansas- surely this is going to undermine his disguise.

[Deleted]

Do you think he could pull off a British accent?

[atp]

Jun 16, 2013 17:25:16 GMT -5 @kris said:

Do you think he could pull off a British accent?

He could try to do it...

[Deleted]

please Mr Cavill

[crazy_asian_man]

This doesn't really apply to anyone in here, but I think the various people have complained about 'half a city being destroyed' need to see the film again, because they're talking shite. When you actually look at the damage black zero did it's not wide scale atall, its a very small portion of the city by the time Superman stops it.

Added to that when Superman and Zod are fighting, they're not tearing building down, they heavily damage some buildings, but they're not causing the same size of destruction some would have you believe.

I know you said your comments weren't directed at anyone here, but I know I've commented on this aspect and am guilty of what you've stated, though, too. For me, I feel it's possibly more of a reaction on my own part to the movie trying to take a realistic tone--- and having real-life reactions or deja vu to some of the imagery that REALLY looks close to the two towers from 9/11*, far moreso than the Avengers. Avengers I think got away with it, perhaps more because they were inserting big broad laughs every five-ten minutes--- so you never REALLY felt like there was danger or anything really at stake- it was Roger Moore James Bond-like action and devastation there. (*Not that I feel that they should avoid any real life associations in filmmaking, just that if they go that route- then I think they should decide on going through with the emotional reality of it all the way, too if they're going for the movie to be taken as reality.)

Actually, it's a sideways compliment to MOS in that they made the devastation look/feel so real, even with everyone's general knowledge of CGI creating everything.... that it DID bother me- because it felt real in the visceral sense- but the flip side is that I feel it made Kal seem pretty callous (but it could well be editing.... that's why I keep on mentioning that an extended cut could actually alleviate most of my (and some other folks) misgivings about the film).

It might not be a half a city, but I (and I know I'm the only one complaining about it, but its a genuine reaction) feel like the movie showed enough destruction to imply thousands of innocents killed instantly in that area, and I feel like I wanted/needed Superman to address it emotionally... ("Noooo! The people!!!") during the battle - even if only in more glances around him. On another note, I know I've totally bashed SR's action (less) scenes as well... although for other reasons.

In any case--- I still want to see it again, and I DEFINITELY want/hope Snyder is interested enough in pushing for an extended cut on dvd.

Also..... I don't think ANYONE on this board is free from overanalyzing a Superman movie... but isn't that the fun of it?

[EnriqueH]

Jun 16, 2013 17:28:05 GMT -5 atp said:

Jun 16, 2013 17:25:16 GMT -5 @kris said:

Do you think he could pull off a British accent?

He could try to do it...

Try again.

[Deleted]

I had never really thought much about Star Trek parallels because I don't put a lot of thought into that franchise. But, considering Superman and many of those themes pre-date Star Trek, I'd argue that Star Trek is aping Superman and not the other way around.

Here's a thought: I can almost forgive some of the lack of logic in any Kryptonian plan, good or bad. Why? Kryptonians are fuck ups. Think about it. If they weren't, they could have taken care of their planet, Jor-El would have no reason to send Kal off, Superman wouldn't exist on Earth. It's a plot devcie that must always stand, otherwise the very franchise does not happen.

All Kryptonian-conceived plans are doomed to failure. They're fuck ups.

[Deleted]

So in a way, there's parallels between Kryptonians and the head honchos at WB. Interesting

[Jor-L5150]

Jun 16, 2013 18:05:46 GMT -5 @kris said:

So in a way, there's parallels between Kryptonians and the head honchos at WB. Interesting

Ever heard of van halen? They were signed to wb.
Their management, krypton and wb management aLl suffer from incredible ability stymied by poor leadership.

[Metallo]

Jun 16, 2013 17:56:47 GMT -5 @bamabrad said:

I had never really thought much about Star Trek parallels because I don't put a lot of thought into that franchise. But, considering Superman and many of those themes pre-date Star Trek, I'd argue that Star Trek is aping Superman and not the other way around.

Here's a thought: I can almost forgive some of the lack of logic in any Kryptonian plan, good or bad. Why? Kryptonians are fuck ups. Think about it. If they weren't, they could have taken care of their planet, Jor-El would have no reason to send Kal off, Superman wouldn't exist on Earth. It's a plot devcie that must always stand, otherwise the very franchise does not happen.

All Kryptonian-conceived plans are doomed to failure. They're fuck ups.

Well I never said MOS was aping Star Trek in the sense of ripping off basic ideas from he source material. I said I wonder if Snyder and Goyer did the KIND of film they did the way they did knowing films like Trek 09 and Bayformers were hugely successful? Did they take the similarities already there and push them in a creative direction that would appeal to the audiences that enjoyed the films Im talking about? obviously Kirk and Superman were both born but the way Goyer went about it certainly was similar to want Abrams did. The way Lara died certain did evoke images of Amanda especially since Lara usually dies with Jor El. I don't specifically remember Zod wanting something like the codex to repopulate a new Krypton or a machine to terraform Earth the way Megatron wanted to use the Allspark to remake a new Cybertron. Even without the Allspark that's something Megatrons tried to do for decades in various incarnations.

[ShogunLogan]

I thoroughly enjoyed it...as did my son. I found it had several lighthearted moments and the theater I was in (about 80% full) laughed at appropriate moments. So, basically, the lightheartedness that was supposedly absent was there for me.

The destruction? Not too bad for me, either. Looked like 2-3 blocks.

They touched on it a little at the end but I would have like to have seen a bit of antagonizing against Superman...after all, the destruction was essentially due to him. I imagine, if this was the real world, there would be many people clamoring to have Superman LEAVE to not draw any other unwanted attention from whoever else is in the universe. Maybe that's something they can do later.

Question...maybe I missed it. But why couldn't Kryptonians give birth? Or why did they choose not to for centuries?

My wife did not like it much at all, btw. She actually nodded off a couple of times. She loved the characters but hated the story. Oh well.

[crazy_asian_man]

They touched on it a little at the end but I would have like to have seen a bit of antagonizing against Superman...after all, the destruction was essentially due to him. I imagine, if this was the real world, there would be many people clamoring to have Superman LEAVE to not draw any other unwanted attention from whoever else is in the universe. Maybe that's something they can do later.

Right.... it might have been interesting to see both reactions from a crowd--- those who recognized that Superman saved them (in the long run) and those who blamed him for bringing trouble around in the first place, just by being there and being wanted by the Kryptonians.

In fact, with the buildings tumbling--- I thought there was going to be an echo from earlier in the movie where he's lifting that Oil Rig frame and have an image towards the last battle where Superman pushes up the frame of the building to let people escape from getting crushed (with Zod approaching anyways).... sort of like from the old Fleisher cartoons.

One moment like that might have helped the idea of masses seeing automatically all at once (like the helicopter rescue in STM) that Superman was on the side of the general public.... not just the four or five people who got rescued (?) from Zod's heat vision at the end of the movie*. (Did Superman or didn't he save them? It looked to me
like he did, but it was moving so fast, I think someone commented that they feel he didn't save them in time... definitely have to see it again.) (*I know there were a couple of other instances, but just generally speaking)

[Deleted]

The way I understand this point, based on the footage and not merely my assumptions, most people ran inside and watched from afar. They didn't stick around to gawk as the destruction was much more rampant than a helicopter dangling from a building.

Most of the shots of any non-primary or secondary characters was of people running the fuck away. The one close-up of a Smallville resident running inside and turning a deadbolt locked amused me. At that point, watching powered beings throw each other through structures ... well, locking the door ain't helping shit. I mean, it's fine because I'm sure it'd be a natural reaction of anyone. I just found it funny.

[Deleted]

Jun 16, 2013 20:13:00 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jun 16, 2013 17:56:47 GMT -5 @bamabrad said:

I had never really thought much about Star Trek parallels because I don't put a lot of thought into that franchise. But, considering Superman and many of those themes pre-date Star Trek, I'd argue that Star Trek is aping Superman and not the other way around.

Here's a thought: I can almost forgive some of the lack of logic in any Kryptonian plan, good or bad. Why? Kryptonians are fuck ups. Think about it. If they weren't, they could have taken care of their planet, Jor-El would have no reason to send Kal off, Superman wouldn't exist on Earth. It's a plot devcie that must always stand, otherwise the very franchise does not happen.

All Kryptonian-conceived plans are doomed to failure. They're fuck ups.

Well I never said MOS was aping Star Trek in the sense of ripping off basic ideas from he source material. I said I wonder if Snyder and Goyer did the KIND of film they did the way they did knowing films like Trek 09 and Bayformers were hugely successful? Did they take the similarities already there and push them in a creative direction that would appeal to the audiences that enjoyed the films Im talking about? obviously Kirk and Superman were both born but the way Goyer went about it certainly was similar to want Abrams did. The way Lara died certain did evoke images of Amanda especially since Lara usually dies with Jor El. I don't specifically remember Zod wanting something like the codex to repopulate a new Krypton or a machine to terraform Earth the way Megatron wanted to use the Allspark to remake a new Cybertron. Even without the Allspark that's something Megatrons tried to do for decades in various incarnations.

I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Apologies if it came off that way. It's just getting so hard to see these movies and not think to similar setups, premises, or themes from other stuff. It's hard to keep up with who did what when people keep "borrowing" back and forth as these franchises start, stop, and re-start. My head hurts.

[Valentine Smith]

Enjoyed it MUCH more on the second viewing. Many of my minor quibbles (the pacing, the convoluted plot) were completely resolved this time around. I still have some things I don't like, although even the Zod murder was less jarring this time. I'm not thrilled with it, but I can accept it...but I still don't buy it was his only option there. Jon Kent's death is still prequel-levels of stupid, though.

Believe it or not, seeing it on a smaller/crappier screen HELPED. I could follow the action MUCH easier. I was contemplating IMAX/3D screenings, but now? Screw that.

Cavill's performance could end up being definitive.

Incredibly impressed even MORE on the 2nd viewing with the entire cast. Christopher Meloni's Colonel Hardy is my favorite supporting character in a superhero movie this side of Agent Coulson. Faora is terrific, too.

[eccentricbeing]

Faora is also ridiculously hot. I can't stop looking at her whenever she appears.

[EnriqueH]

Jun 16, 2013 23:05:04 GMT -5 eccentricbeing said:

Faora is also ridiculously hot. I can't stop looking at her whenever she appears.

SOOOOOOO much hotter than Adams.

[Jack Tripper]

Jun 16, 2013 17:25:16 GMT -5 @kris said:

Do you think he could pull off a British accent?

I think that's not a bad idea for them to have used in the movie. Too late now but it definitely would've helped Clark's disguise.

[atp]

Jun 17, 2013 0:42:42 GMT -5 Jack Tripper said:

Jun 16, 2013 17:25:16 GMT -5 @kris said:

Do you think he could pull off a British accent?

I think that's not a bad idea for them to have used in the movie. Too late now but it definitely would've helped Clark's disguise.

The more I think about it, I also agree it would have been a good idea. It would have been a massive departure from other versions, but then again, who cares? This is a brand-new take on Superman.

Like I said earlier, the whole world knows he comes from Kansas now. His "normal" disguise is pretty pointless.

[atp]

So what happened to the following scenes:

a) Bearded Clark sitting on a step stroking a dog?
b) Kal-El saying, "I won't betray them" and Zod saying, "You already have"?

[atp]

Ideas? Please?

[Jack Tripper]

Fool around with the color correction. Brighten the colors. Get rid of the yellow in the S. Maybe try and make the story more linear and definitely try and work in Williams' music just for the heck of it.

[Deleted]

Gratuitous violence is covered, so I guess graphic sex and nudity.

[Jack Tripper]

Jun 17, 2013 0:49:54 GMT -5 atp said:

Jun 17, 2013 0:42:42 GMT -5 Jack Tripper said:

I think that's not a bad idea for them to have used in the movie. Too late now but it definitely would've helped Clark's disguise.

The more I think about it, I also agree it would have been a good idea. It would have been a massive departure from other versions, but then again, who cares? This is a brand-new take on Superman.

Like I said earlier, the whole world knows he comes from Kansas now. His "normal" disguise is pretty pointless.

Yeah way too many people know or could easily figure out that Clark is Superman. I have a feeling it won't be addressed at all in the sequel.

Jun 17, 2013 0:51:47 GMT -5 atp said:

So what happened to the following scenes:

a) Bearded Clark sitting on a step stroking a dog?
b) Kal-El saying, "I won't betray them" and Zod saying, "You already have"?

Hopefully there's a director's cut. I keep hearing Snyder's original cut was 3 hours. I don't know how true that is, but I'm definitely hoping we get to see a longer version. It would definitely help with the fan edits.

[Jack Tripper]

Mark Waid's (author of Birthright) review:

At its emotional climax, at the moment of Superman’s ultimate “victory,” MAN OF STEEL broke my heart. I mean, absolutely snapped it clean in half.

I went in ready to forgive a lot. I knew we wouldn’t get much, if any, of the secret identity–“Clark Kent” as we know him, as a reporter in glasses, as in “disguised as…”, appears only in a cute nod, and I’ve said all my adult life that a Superman story without Clark Kent in it never really feels like a Superman story. But I was willing to give that a pass. And I suspected they’d front-loaded the story with so much Kryptonian backstory that it would end up being a science fiction movie, not a super-hero movie. But the music was good and the look of Kal-El , at least from the waist up, was good, and I had to suffer through four seasons of LOIS AND CLARK Superman with no spit-curl, so while I missed the ‘do, it was hardly a deal-breaker.

And I genuinely enjoyed the first two-thirds or so of the movie. Krypton was great. Zod was great. Really, there was a lot to like there. And I got my first of many proud-papa BIRTHRIGHT glows when we cut straight from the rocket’s entry to Clark as an adult, and I grinned like an idiot at the many, many other BIRTHRIGHT moments. I can’t really describe for you what it feels like to me to see evidence that I really have been lucky enough to add a few lasting elements to the Superman myth.

And I think you’d be surprised to find that I loved everything about Jonathan Kent. I loved his protectiveness, even when it made him sound like an asshole. (“Maybe.”) And I loved, loved, loved that scene where Clark didn’t save him, because Goyer did something magical–he took two moments that, individually, I would have hated and he welded them together into something amazing. Out of context, I would have hated that Clark said “You’re not my real dad,” or whatever he says right before the tornado. And out of context, I would have loathed that Clark stood by frozen with helplessness as the tornado killed Jonathan. But the reason that beat worked is because Clark had just said “You’re not my dad,” the last real words he said to Pa. Tearful Clark choosing to go against his every instinct in that last second because he had to show his father he trusted him after all, because he had to show Pa that Pa could trust him and that Clark had learned, Clark did love him–that worked for me, hugely. It was a very brave story choice, but it worked. It worked largely on the shoulders of Cavill, who sold it. It worked as a tragic rite of passage. I kinda wish I’d written that scene.

But about the time we got to the big Smallville fight, my Spider-Sense began to tingle. A lot of destruction. A lot of destruction–and Superman making absolutely no effort to take the fight, like, ONE BLOCK AWAY INTO A CORNFIELD INSTEAD OF ON MAIN STREET. Still, saving people here and there, but certainly never going out of his way to do so, and mostly just trying not to get his ass kicked. (I loved Clark Kent’s pal, Pete Ross, and not just because they cast pre-teen Mark Waid as Pete Ross.)

And then we got to The Battle of Metropolis, and I truly, genuinely started to feel nauseous at all the Disaster Porn. Minute after minute after endless minute of Some Giant Machine laying so much waste to Metropolis that it’s inconceivable that we weren’t watching millions of people die in every single shot. And what’s Superman doing while all this is going on? He’s halfway around the world, fighting an identical machine but with no one around to be directly threatened, so it’s only slightly less noticeable that thousands of innocents per second are dying gruesomely on his watch. Seriously, back in Metropolis, entire skyscrapers are toppling in slo-mo and the city is a smoking, gray ruin for miles in every direction, it’s Hiroshima, and Michael Bay and Roland Emmerich are somewhere muttering “Too far, man, too far”…but, you know, Superman buys the humans enough time to sacrifice many, many of their own lives to bomb the Giant Machine themselves and even makes it back to Metropolis in time to catch Lois from falling (again), so…yay?

And then Superman and Lois land in the three-mile-wide crater that used to be a city of eight million people, and the staff of the Planet and a couple of other bystanders stagger out of the rubble to see Superman and say, “He saved us,” and before you can say either “From what?” or “Wow, these eight are probably the only people left alive,” and somehow–inexplicably, implausibly, somehow–before Superman can be bothered to take one second to surrender one ounce of concern or assistance to the millions of Metropolitans who are without question still buried under all that rubble, dead or dying, he saunters lazily over to where General Zod is kneeling and moping, and they argue, and they squabble, and they break into the Third Big Fight, the one that broke my heart.

See, everyone else in Zod’s army has been beaten and banished, but General Zod lives and so, of course, he and Superman duke it out in what, to everyone’s credit, is the very best super-hero fight I’ve ever seen, just a marvel of spectacle. But once more–and this is where I knew we were headed someplace really awful–once more, Superman showed not the slightest split-second of concern for the people around them. Particularly in this last sequence, his utter disregard for the collateral damage was just jaw-dropping as they just kept crashing through buildings full of survivors. I’m not suggesting he stop in the middle of a super-powered brawl to save a kitten from a tree, but even Brandon Routh thought to use his heat vision on the fly to disintegrate deadly falling debris after a sonic boom. From everything shown to us from the moment he put on the suit, Superman rarely if ever bothered to give the safety and welfare of the people around him one bit of thought. Which is why the climax of that fight broke me.

Superman wins by killing Zod. By snapping his neck. And as this moment was building, as Zod was out of control and Superman was (for the first time since the fishing boat 90 minutes ago) struggling to actually save innocent victims instead of casually catching them in mid-plummet, some crazy guy in front of us was muttering “Don’t do it…don’t do it…DON’T DO IT…” and then Superman snapped Zod’s neck and that guy stood up and said in a very loud voice, “THAT’S IT, YOU LOST ME, I’M OUT,” and his girlfriend had to literally pull him back into his seat and keep him from walking out and that crazy guy was me. That crazy guy was me, and I barely even remember doing that, I had to be told afterward that I’d done that, that’s how caught up in betrayal I felt. And after the neck-snapping, even though I stuck it out, I didn’t give a damn about the rest of the movie.

As the credits rolled, I told myself I was upset because Superman doesn’t kill. Full-stop, Superman doesn’t kill. But sitting there, I broke it down some more in my head because I sensed there was more to it since Superman clearly regretted killing Zod. I had to grant that the filmmakers at least went way out of their way to put Superman in a position suggesting (but hardly conclusively proving) he had no choice (and I did love Superman’s immediate-aftermath reaction to what he’d done). I granted that they’d at least tried to present Superman with an impossible choice and, on a purely rational level, and if this had been a movie about a guy named Ultraguy, I might even have bought what he did. But after I processed all that, I realized that it wasn’t so much my uncompromising vision of Superman that made this a total-fail moment for me; it was the failed lead-up TO the moment. As Superman’s having his final one-on-one battle with Zod, show me that he’s going out of his way to save people from getting caught in the middle. SHOW ME that trying to simultaneously protect humans and beat Zod is achingly, achingly costing Superman the fight. Build to that moment of the hard choice…show me, without doubt, that Superman has no other out and do a better job of convincing me that it’s a hard decision to make, and maybe I’ll give it to you. But even if I do? It’s not a victory. Not this sad, soul-darkening, utterly sans-catharsis “triumph” that doesn’t even feel like a win so much as a stop-loss. Two and a half hours, and I never once got the sense that Superman really achieved or earned anything.

The essential part of Superman that got lost in MAN OF STEEL, the fundamental break in trust between the movie and the audience, is that we don’t just want Superman to save us; we want him to protect us. He was okay at the former, but really, really lousy at the latter. Once he puts on that suit, everyone he bothers to help along the way is pretty much an afterthought, a fly ball he might as well shag since he’s flying past anyway, so what the heck. Where Christopher Reeve won me over with his portrayal was that his Superman clearly cared about everyone. Yes, this Superman cares in the abstract–he is willing to surrender to Zod to spare us–but the vibe I kept getting was that old Charles Schulz line: “I love mankind…it’s people I can’t stand.”

Look, I know everyone involved in MAN OF STEEL went into it with the best of intentions. And trust me, there are not rivers or coastlines on this planet long enough to measure just how much I wanted to love this movie. If you don’t know me, you can’t imagine. And there were certainly things to like. But there was no triumph to it. None of Superman’s victories in this movie are in any way the kind of stand-up-and-cheer events you’d think necessary in a movie with Superman in it. Did it succeed in what it sent out to do? I think probably so. But what it set out to do, as it turns out, leaves me cold. With the exception of the first-flight beat–the smile Superman gets when he first takes to the air–it’s utterly joyless. From start to finish. Utterly. Joyless. And I just have no interest in relentless joyless from a guy who can fly.