Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 5, 2010 17:58:35 GMT -5
Probably because we're not discussing a 20 year old TV show that most people don't even remember.  Same rules apply. I'm not TALKING about everyone else I'm talking about YOU. Or do you make every choice and opinion of your own based on what other people do and don't know? YOU seem to remember it otherwise you wouldn't have a clue what I'm talking about. I don't care how long ago it was the facts are the facts. Consistency is consistency. The Adventures of Superman was SIXTY years ago and YOU used that as an example. I doubt most of the public knows jack shit about that show or George Reeves either. Certainly not the tween crowd WB wants to spend a ton of money on a Superman movie. Are the kids that buy the videogames really going to give a fuck about George Reeves? Seems to me like once again you just wanted to go on a biased rant of picking and choosing to criticize someone for one thing then giving someone else a pass on the same thing just cause it tickles your fancy. ;D |
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ye5man
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Post by ye5man on Aug 5, 2010 18:24:57 GMT -5
Calm down Metallo, drink a glass of milk or something
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 5, 2010 18:28:52 GMT -5
Calm down Metallo, drink a glass of milk or something  Nice Try Russ but nobody's going to buy that old trick. I'm perfectly calm. If I wasn't I'd REALLY let you know it. Are you fogging up my window spying on me outside or something? Why do people on the internet always resort to such a blatantly transparent jab at someone when they're trying to discredit what they say? Oh yeah, cause they aint got nothing else. ;D |
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Post by Kamdan on Aug 5, 2010 18:42:56 GMT -5
Your "calm?" ;D You're the one saying that people won't "give a fuck about George Reeves." Now, DRINK YOUR MILK!
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 5, 2010 18:55:11 GMT -5
Wow, is that the BEST ya got to contribute? You must be the most sheltered person on Earth if you think one curse word means the end of the world. Most of us curse like that sometimes. Its fun. Now, make me drink my milk  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 6, 2010 1:39:42 GMT -5
A lot of great posts here, Metallo.
A couple of things I don't necessarily agree with, but I respect how you state your cases very specifically and at least give one something to think about for debate.... if they choose to debate intelligently, that is....and not go for personal attacks, which happens more often than it should on forums...
Anyhow-
I'm not necessarily suprised that a faction of Superman fans lost their minds when Superman Returns came out- there were some very daring creative choices made (most of which I loved myself) - particularly with Superman/Lois's child- BUT.... I am more suprised at how fickle WB has been, when the grosses were relatively good for the (stated) production budget, that they didn't stick to their guns and continue with Singer's sequel. As you said, it's all about money - and money that they feel something needs to make, to make them look good.
First, the head of WB says that SR was a moderate success and that they'd back a sequel, then.... later on, apparently it wasn't enough of a success. *sheesh*
Fear seems rampant, though- and it'd be sad/ironic if Nolan's Superman made the same amount as SR, if the same number of fans disagree with other elements that Nolan may have chosen, and then WB chooses to reboot it again with a newer director/actor.
Doesn't sound like the smartest strategy to me, but, what power do we really have, anyways, in the end? *sigh*
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2010 2:36:21 GMT -5
Is Warner Brothers the only movie studio that puts out shitty movies and wants to make money? I'm...not sure...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 10:17:52 GMT -5
No but thats not the point is it? One groups mistake doesn't excuse another groups mistake does it? They've probably put out more shitty superhero movies than almost anyone and plenty of good ones and they haven't really learned a thing from any of it. They've certainly put out the absolute worst of the worst superhero movies. When your star and director of a certain terrible movie apologize to the public I think you've got a problem.
And yeah they are in the business of making money. I pointed that out long before you did so I just don't get your point.
And if it IS about money...they may have sunk $20-30 million into the terrible sounding JLA movie...for nothing. Even if it could have been good or bad in the end it never happened. Waste of time and cash.
What kind of business sense does that make? Not creative but business? If they had started out with a good tight idea in the first place maybe that waste wouldn't have happened.
Nolan told them maybe they should rethink what they were doing when development began and he turned out to be right because it went into the toilet.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 10:28:26 GMT -5
A lot of great posts here, Metallo. A couple of things I don't necessarily agree with, but I respect how you state your cases very specifically and at least give one something to think about for debate.... if they choose to debate intelligently, that is....and not go for personal attacks, which happens more often than it should on forums... Anyhow- I'm not necessarily surprised that a faction of Superman fans lost their minds when Superman Returns came out- there were some very daring creative choices made (most of which I loved myself) - particularly with Superman/Lois's child- BUT.... I am more surprised at how fickle WB has been, when the grosses were relatively good for the (stated) production budget, that they didn't stick to their guns and continue with Singer's sequel. As you said, it's all about money - and money that they feel something needs to make, to make them look good. First, the head of WB says that SR was a moderate success and that they'd back a sequel, then.... later on, apparently it wasn't enough of a success. *sheesh* Fear seems rampant, though- and it'd be sad/ironic if Nolan's Superman made the same amount as SR, if the same number of fans disagree with other elements that Nolan may have chosen, and then WB chooses to reboot it again with a newer director/actor. Doesn't sound like the smartest strategy to me, but, what power do we really have, anyways, in the end? *sigh* WB's game plan is throw it against the wall and see iif it sticks. They've proven time and again they really aren't that good at making smart development decisions. They've had plenty of mistakes to learn from and yet they still haven't modified their thinking. The one thing I can say they do know is if it aint broke don't mess with it. Thats why they are leaving Nolan alone with the Batman movies. The buck has to stop with WB though. They've got the final say so on to many things for it not to stop there. They chose Singer. They spent the money. Maybe if they had been willing to listen to people more experienced on the creative end of things they could have not hired Singer and not wasted the last 6 years if a massively successful Superman movie meant that much to them. But the very reasons they chose Singer were because 1. They saw the cash X-men made 2. they felt he could bring a similar quality to Superman that Nolan brought to Batman. Not bad ideas per se but it doesn't mean much when you are risking 300 million dollars. You've got to have more than that to go on. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 11:29:39 GMT -5
Compare WB to Marvel studios. Its right out of David vs Goliath. Marvel Studios has made plenty of mistakes and even some of us here have criticized them but before the movie Iron Man was a B character at best to the general public. Sad but true. And yet this little studio with a fraction of the resources of Warner Bros (part of a multimedia empire with international reach across various platforms), took this B character and made it one of the most popular films of its kind and one of the most anticipated franchises in recent years. Now Iron Mans an A character.
How'd they do that? Cause they had to. To WB Superman means diddly shit besides the money he can make them. But Marvels ass was literally on the line financially with its first two movies. They couldn't afford to lose this gamble so they went into it as prepared as possible in many ways. I've read the script was never 100% but they hired a director they saw something in besides how much cash his previous movie made.
He knew the material and how to present it to the audience and they listened to his good advice on a star: Robert Downey Jr. He was a guy trying to make a comeback and was a huge gamble. But it paid off. Big Time. The whole thing was a process and Marvel knew to listen to someone with better judgment than them in the movie making business at least some.
In between the time Superman Returns was released in 2006 and today we sit hear waiting on a reboot that may or may not happen while Marvel has created one truly successful franchise in Iron man with two movies. The second one has its share of critics but the first one was more of a financial success and arguably more of a critical success than Superman Returns. It certain appears to be more popular with the average movie fans.
Incredible Hulk, while not a financial success they hoped, at least has been described by many as been a good movie. Yet who knows if WB has looked at what THAT movie can teach them either. Not surprisingly Iron Man 2 really began to have the problems it did when Marvel didn't listen to Jon Favreau and rushed the movie out in 2 years instead of 3.
Superman is one property among countless others to WB. They can afford to waste money on it with ill informed development and poorly thought out decisions. What do they care? They have plenty of money. But they shouldn't be so shocked and disappointed when these movies end up being failures when they didn't put the time and care in making the initial right decisions. Marvel has shown that while they make plenty of mistakes that if you really hammer out you game plan before you start spending massive amounts of cash you can at least have a better chance of producing a good and successful movie that the public may be interested in.
Like I said its not an exact science but this little studio with a fraction of WB's resources is doing things that WB hasn't. And they don't have nearly the creative freedom to pick and choose out of their own comics catalog the way WB does with DC. Marvel is attempting something that WB has had the freedom to do for years but either never could figure out how or never could take the initiative and just recently decided to play follow the leader by doing JLA after Marvels plans to do Avengers began to creep out.
It could still fail but they've shown they are more successful at it in its current stage than WB was when they've tried something similar.
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Post by Jimbo on Aug 6, 2010 11:34:55 GMT -5
Compare WB to Marvel studios. Its right out of David vs Goliath. Unfortunately, David is about to bang Bathsheba.  The Avengers will dilute every character in it. How is there supposed to be an Iron Man 3 and an Avengers movie at the same time? Iron Man is going to be a starring role AND part of an ensemble at the same time? Good luck, David. It's like having Nolan's Batman in a Justice League movie. It would just feel really out of place. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 11:46:16 GMT -5
You can't say for sure Avengers will dilute every character in it. The movie is still 2 years off. Is hard to say since we don't really know HOW Iron man is going to be used in The Avengers. And doesn't Iron man 3 come a while after Avengers? I'm pretty sure those movies aren't coming out at the same time.
I wouldn't be surprised if Iron man 3 is pushed back to 2013 if thats not the release date already.
besides Iron Man has already crossed over with the Hulk and it showed little in the way of damage or confusing the vast majority of people. Stark was IN TIH. I don't think there was any problem at all with that.
Iron man is another matter but who says Iron man is going to have a MAJOR role in the Avengers on the same level as say...Captain America? Dialogue in Iron man 2 would seem to imply otherwise. Remember what Fury said to Stark about joining the Avengers in IM2?
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Post by Jimbo on Aug 6, 2010 11:50:40 GMT -5
It's just the impression I have with any movie with too many characters.
Joss Whedon is used to handling ensemble casts though, so I'll just have to wait and see.
I just don't want to see characters in the movie and feel like they've been wasted like much of the cast of X-Men 3.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 12:02:53 GMT -5
X3 was a movie with a bad script, massive behind the scenes shakeups, and a director that was probably way too busy snorting coke off hookers to worry about doing anything besides what Fox told him to do when they jerked on his leash.
As for the Batman comparison...WB wasn't acting like a controlling force behind the scenes of JLA trying to mesh things together the way marvel is trying to do with Avengers. It was clear from the word go that Nolan created a VERY specific vision and that JLA was presenting a Batman that was starkly against that vision. WB didn't seem willing to try to make it fit with Nolan's Batman until Nolan voiced his displeasure.
I don't see as large a gulf between the presentation and tone of Iron man and The other Avengers so far. TIH seemed to be very grounded much the same way as Iron Man was in presentation of his world. Thor is even TRYING to shift the magical aspects into something more plausible according to Thor's own works in the trailer "What you once called magic and now call science are to us one and the same" or something like that.
Downeys acting with Hurt's General Ross in Hulk seemed perfectly natural and not forced or out of place. Nick Fury has integrated pretty well into the Iron Man franchise. Avengers is going to be the biggest test of all this but so far the little glimpses we've seen have seemed to work pretty well.
The fact is that Avengers is still well on its way to happening and JLA is Ding Dong Dead so clearly they are doing something better.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 6, 2010 12:49:44 GMT -5
Joss Whedon is the only ray of hope for the Avengers, imo. I agree, though, that it's definitely going to be an uphill battle to make it any good. There was a radio interview with the writer of the (majorly disappointing) Iron Man 2, who was asked about 'the master plan for the Avengers', (there was none), and how everyone along the way contributed to it & how that worked.
Essentially, they've all been giving hints to how things fit together and are letting the writer/director of the Avengers sort it all out. Not an easy chair to sit in, I'm sure, given the expectations level of the project at this point.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Aug 6, 2010 12:59:57 GMT -5
Metallo beat me to the punch and was more elaborate about issues of WB versus Marvel's approach- WB has actually done what seemed to be the right thing in hiring Geoff Johns to be liason for the DC properties.....although in listening to Johns at Wondercon, am a little worried that Geoff Johns may be TOO nice a guy to put his foot down in working with the filmmakers that are going to be working on the new DC projects. (In his words: "It's not about control- it's about collaboration".... hmn....)
I don't mind if WB's goal is making money- I'm thrilled that they let Singer do SR & backed him for that- wish they'd have seen straighter and let Singer do "Wrath of Khan" with Superman at the end. I have a hunch at what we'd get with that. With Nolan's, I'm sure it'll be good movie- but may or may not be the Superman film that brings any of us back to the theatre a 1000 times.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 14:07:46 GMT -5
If they listened to Geoff Johns I'm almost sure he could straighten out at least some of the creative issues with WB's DC films.
But the problem is there is no guarantee they'll listen to him. Johns has no way to enforce what he says. He can just do is job and hope WB listens. If they hear something that doesn't jive with their thinking they aren't going to listen to his advice.
Seems to me that while Johns tries to do his job and do it well it could be another case of WB trying to do damage control and using this as good PR with the fans.
WB has to do something to keep them excited since they haven't produced a whole lot in the way of positive results. And I'm sure they know giving Johns his current job would rekindle some peoples hope that they'll see some good movies and tv.
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Legsy
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Post by Legsy on Aug 6, 2010 14:34:11 GMT -5
If they listen to Johns, then Welling will play Supes. Makes Pinky and The Blur happy, but most of you pissed off.
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Post by Jimbo on Aug 6, 2010 14:38:48 GMT -5
Welling is too old. ;D
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Legsy
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Post by Legsy on Aug 6, 2010 14:40:23 GMT -5
I love you, botron235.
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Kirok
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Post by Kirok on Aug 6, 2010 14:52:38 GMT -5
If they listen to Johns, then Welling will play Supes. Makes Pinky and The Blur happy, but most of you pissed off. Haha, funny to see both our new names like that. Here's hoping Johns has a lot of pull. KEEP HOPE ALIVE!  |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Aug 6, 2010 14:57:18 GMT -5
If they listen to Johns, then Welling will play Supes. Makes Pinky and The Blur happy, but most of you pissed off. Welling part of your plan to take over the world? Is one of you a genius and the other insane? |
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Legsy
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Post by Legsy on Aug 6, 2010 15:02:40 GMT -5
If they listen to Johns, then Welling will play Supes. Makes Pinky and The Blur happy, but most of you pissed off. Haha, funny to see both our new names like that. Here's hoping Johns has a lot of pull. KEEP HOPE ALIVE! Hear, Hear! |
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Legsy
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Post by Legsy on Aug 6, 2010 15:03:09 GMT -5
If they listen to Johns, then Welling will play Supes. Makes Pinky and The Blur happy, but most of you pissed off. Welling part of your plan to take over the world? Is one off you a genius and the other insane? HAHAHA! ;D ;D ;D |
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Post by Kamdan on Aug 6, 2010 15:04:21 GMT -5
(SHOVES GLASS OF MILK DOWN METALLO'S FUCKING THROAT) ;D
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Nice Try Russ but nobody's going to buy that old trick. 
