SR vs MoS

[Deleted]

In a few decades, SR will be appreciated for its effort to try to take the film series in a new direction, whereas MoS is ultimately just another origin story. It really didn't cover any new ground.

[ye5man]

Bizarrely, I think it may even end up as a cult classic. It will have a place in history, like OHMSS

I think people will want to re-discover it, put it on - then we open with the Gothic mansion, they'll remember and get bored within 20 mins.

Film is too sombre and heavy to be a cult classic IMO.

[Metallo]

I think SR did too well to have cult status. It wasn't a bomb to be rediscovers later. Time might be kinder to it but I still see it as Supermans Never Say Never again. Made decent money but its kind of an oddity that doesn't really fit anywhere. It's kind of in this strange middle ground.

I agree with ya Brad that MOS is just another comic book origin movie. It's not gonna go down as one of the greats. If WB wasn't pushing pushing a cinematic universe most people would move on to the next movie and put it out of their mind.

SIV SR and MOS all suffer one of the same problems. The makers tried to put some kind of different spin in there to hook people and had good a good idea to do it but the good idea got lost in the shuffle of poor filmmaking. All three films initially reached for something more than just "popcorn" movie but missed the mark.

Supergirl might be the film closest to being a cult movie.

[EnriqueH]

I've actually heard Supergirl referred to as a cult classic outside of this board. I read somewhere that it seems to be a favorite among drag queens.

Which means Kris and Shane take turn playing Selena and Kara...

[Metallo]

When I think of a cult movie I think of something like Big Trouble In Little China or Highlander or something that bombed when it opened or wasn't appreciated but got its due from a small but loyal group of fans.

Masters of The Universe is another one like that.

[MerM]

If anything, it's going to be like The Golden Child. Made money, and a few people like it, but no one's idea of a classic.

[Deleted]

I'd say there's a fine difference in what SR will eventually become. More appreciated in the ways I mentioned? Yes. Cult? No.

I'd argue that S3 is more cult even though it was a box office hit because looking back, it is such a bizarre movie in a lot of ways. It's well made, but it's just weird. S3 is a good film that is on the verge of cult. S4 is a bad film that will be cult because people love to shit on it. Of the two movies, which do we use to spout silly lines when drunk? S3.

MoS, while I really enjoy it, I see it as how Spidey fans see ASM: just another origin, and a lot of fans of the first attempt will always prefer it to the new version. That's okay, that's just to people's taste.

The MoS sequel has potential to be a special film based on the team-up aspect. But, it could be a giant piece of shit because if the premise is the best thing it has going, people will fucking crucify it. People will line up based on the premise, but goddamn it, if's got to go beyond that.

[EnriqueH]

The problem with SR is that some of it is awkward as heck.

A lot of it comes off unnaturally. Too much drama, and not enough action.

And Superman gets hurt like 86 times in the movie and there isn't even a supervillain. It's just Luthor and a couple of goons. Superman returns...and the first time we see, he's hurt and crawling out of wreckage. Then Superman gets stabbed by Kryptonite. Then hauls away a Kryptonite continent and is hurt again.

They dropped the ball in almost every aspect.

There are a few cool scenes, but overall, ooof.

[crazy_asian_man]

In a few decades, SR will be appreciated for its effort to try to take the film series in a new direction, whereas MoS is ultimately just another origin story. It really didn't cover any new ground.

I don't know if the type of fans who enjoy action or adventure films will ever appreciate (or enjoy) SR for what it is. SR is an indie film in the disguise of a summer blockbuster film. It's extremely somber and contemplative--- much like Star Trek: Generations- (and Dune) which also got slammed by fans. I think those fans want a certain type of film, with a certain type of energy.

However- there are those of us who don't mind somber fantasy films that try to have depth and some meaning to it.

While I can enjoy the lighthearted action fare, the ones that try to make it deal with dark personal issues- I don't mind, so long as I feel like they're done well. (Elektra wasn't imo, SR and ST:Generations were)
If anything, it should have been a November-December release.

MOS was dark, but as much as there were things that bothered me about the execution, I do feel like it tried to have a significantly fresh take on it. The silver age/Donner Superman trusted for the most part--- and, if anything, too much.

This new Superman is fighting himself to trust mankind- Both the word he inhabits and he himself has a lot more darkness within him than previous takes. I give it credit for trying to be something different and the same simultaneously, even if I don't agree with all its choices.

[crazy_asian_man]

The problem with SR is that some of it is awkward as heck.

A lot of it comes off unnaturally. Too much drama, and not enough action.

And Superman gets hurt like 86 times in the movie and there isn't even a supervillain. It's just Luthor and a couple of goons. Superman returns...and the first time we see, he's hurt and crawling out of wreckage. Then Superman gets stabbed by Kryptonite. Then hauls away a Kryptonite continent and is hurt again.

They dropped the ball in almost every aspect.

There are a few cool scenes, but overall, ooof.

I actually just feel like they were missing a supervillain (a re-imaginging of Nuclear Man perhaps?) to juice up the middle part/last act, and it would have been better balanced. Oh well.

[EnriqueH]

I'll probably see the movie again soon.

The last time I saw it, I was struck by how little action occurs in the last, what was it, 15-20 minutes? There's virtually no action. No final action sequence. The final action sequence is of Superman lifting the Kryptonite continent and falling to earth, which is then followed by the hospital scene and all the drama stuff.

I actually think Superman sacrificing himself to lift the continent would've worked better and been more inspiring if it was following the defeat of a supervillain. But as I recall, it followed Superman being shanked by Kryptonite.

[Metallo]

Jul 27, 2013 20:36:47 GMT -5 MerM said:

If anything, it's going to be like The Golden Child. Made money, and a few people like it, but no one's idea of a classic.

That chick from The Golden Child is hot. No not the snake bitch.

Jul 27, 2013 22:08:40 GMT -5 @bamabrad said:

I'd say there's a fine difference in what SR will eventually become. More appreciated in the ways I mentioned? Yes. Cult? No.

I'd argue that S3 is more cult even though it was a box office hit because looking back, it is such a bizarre movie in a lot of ways. It's well made, but it's just weird. S3 is a good film that is on the verge of cult. S4 is a bad film that will be cult because people love to shit on it. Of the two movies, which do we use to spout silly lines when drunk? S3.

MoS, while I really enjoy it, I see it as how Spidey fans see ASM: just another origin, and a lot of fans of the first attempt will always prefer it to the new version. That's okay, that's just to people's taste.

The MoS sequel has potential to be a special film based on the team-up aspect. But, it could be a giant piece of shit because if the premise is the best thing it has going, people will fucking crucify it. People will line up based on the premise, but goddamn it, if's got to go beyond that.

SR and SIV tried to tell different kinds of Superman stories. MoS tried to tell the same familiar story in a different way. And that's one story that we've already seen done very well many times in the past.

Christopher Reeve's Somewhere in Time is another definite cult movie. It bombed when it came out but people discovered it on home video and on tv later.

Yeah MoS 2/BvsS is guaranteed to make some big money but its got big expectations from fans. They better not screw it up.

[Metallo]

Jul 27, 2013 23:24:03 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

In a few decades, SR will be appreciated for its effort to try to take the film series in a new direction, whereas MoS is ultimately just another origin story. It really didn't cover any new ground.

I don't know if the type of fans who enjoy action or adventure films will ever appreciate (or enjoy) SR for what it is. SR is an indie film in the disguise of a summer blockbuster film. It's extremely somber and contemplative--- much like Star Trek: Generations- (and Dune) which also got slammed by fans. I think those fans want a certain type of film, with a certain type of energy.

However- there are those of us who don't mind somber fantasy films that try to have depth and some meaning to it.

While I can enjoy the lighthearted action fare, the ones that try to make it deal with dark personal issues- I don't mind, so long as I feel like they're done well. (Elektra wasn't imo, SR and ST:Generations were)
If anything, it should have been a November-December release.

MOS was dark, but as much as there were things that bothered me about the execution, I do feel like it tried to have a significantly fresh take on it. The silver age/Donner Superman trusted for the most part--- and, if anything, too much.

This new Superman is fighting himself to trust mankind- Both the word he inhabits and he himself has a lot more darkness within him than previous takes. I give it credit for trying to be something different and the same simultaneously, even if I don't agree with all its choices.

I agree that its definitely more drama than action film. There's good and bad in that. Singer wasnt making a popcorn film which I respect but he should have considered the masses.

SR is the Star Trek The Motion Picture of the Superman franchise.

Electra wasn't a bad film just kinda TV movie ish and worst of all boring. But there are far worse Marvel films.

[ye5man]

This 15 second clip of a f***ing cartoon shows more classic Superman than either MoS and SR!

[Metallo]

From one of my favorite episodes. His response was very George Reeves-like.

The cartoon also got Lois more right. MOS was so busy giving Lois more things to do they forgot to give her much of a personality. Just because she makes a dick joke doesn't automatically mean its Lois Lane. Still better than Bosworth though.

[crazy_asian_man]

I agree that its definitely more drama than action film. There's good and bad in that. Singer wasnt making a popcorn film which I respect but he should have considered the masses.

SR is the Star Trek The Motion Picture of the Superman franchise.

I remember the first thing I thought afterwards: "Love it, but I don't know if this is going to make a ton of money..."

Given that it's mostly a drama with bits of superhero action (which I also thought was underwhelming), I think it's amazing that it made almost $400 million worldwide. If it had that 'wow' action sequence with a supervillain fight- then I think it would have gone through the roof.

As is.... pretty damn impressive box office wise for a drama.
Just wish they gave him a smaller budget (which he could have worked with) to have made it more profitable.

As far as cult status--- it's hard to say. I guess it depends on how 'cult status' is defined.

It's definitely reached 'highly controversial' status--- something that perhaps MOS is achieving as well.

The thing that bugs me most about SR, though- besides the lack of superhero action--- is that it doesn't feel like a standalone to me. It feels like a pretty big loose thread with the triangle (my friend feels that Richard KNOWS he's Superman's kid by the end and is still ok with it- I'm not so sure.). I believe it when the screenwriters say that they hadn't gotten that far by the time they quit/ the plug got pulled, but I'd be curious as heck as to why--- was it waiting for approval of the IDEA or TREATMENT for the sequel by the studio--- or was it Singer, or was it a result of not feeling happy with what they had come up with?

All I know is: if that treatment with Jason being turned into a conduit for Brainiac was real--- then it would have been a pretty giant problem for them to solve to make the film accessible to the mainstream.

Anyhow- I don't know if the film is too sombre to be a classic, but to me it's more like the Richard Donner cut- one watches it for brilliant parts and thinks about the possibilities that could have happened if the director had been fully able to complete the sequel.
Maybe it's a cult film in that way....

[Deleted]

I've said it before, but it warrants repeating: Richard White is just as smart, capable, and heroic as Superman if not more so. I don't think he's blind to what's going on around him by the end of the film. The look he gives Lois and Jason in his final scene in that car is so powerful. Marsden is incredibly underrated as an actor. He really shines in this movie. I realy believes he knows, but he's also standing his ground that it's his family, his child. And Superman also acknowledges in a subtle performance that it would be best for Jason to be raised by two mortals, just as he was raised, and for him to be more of a guiding pressence like Jor-El was to him.

[Metallo]

Great post. I agree. It would have been easy to make Richard an asshole but by making him a good brave man it makes things more interesting.

Physical dilemmas are tough to come up with so they present Superman with a moral one. And it's not one pulled out of somebodies ass like the one he's presented with in MOS. At least in SR they try to weave it into the plot of the film.

Instead of being selfish and taking what he wants to have Superman decides not to break up what looks to be a happy family. He's probably going to be around watching out for Jason but Superman's in no position to take the kid and raise him. He should have a normal childhood like Clark did. Jason thinks Richard is his dad and Superman breaking that up now would turn the kids life upside down. Superman does whats in Jason's best interests for now instead of what he wants.

Someone asked about the son/father line from the movies. Jason's early life will play out much like his fathers did. Godlike power tempered by the good morals of a mortal upbringing. The son becomes the father. Jason's true nature ties into something that was a big part of the movie from the beginning: Superman's feeling of being alone and the last of his kind. His mother was more right that she realized when she said he wasn't alone. He travelled all the way to the remnants of Krypton searching for something that was already on earth. By discovering who and what Jason is he discovered that he is not alone. The house of El won't end with him.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 29, 2013 10:47:24 GMT -5 @bamabrad said:

I've said it before, but it warrants repeating: Richard White is just as smart, capable, and heroic as Superman if not more so. I don't think he's blind to what's going on around him by the end of the film. The look he gives Lois and Jason in his final scene in that car is so powerful. Marsden is incredibly underrated as an actor. He really shines in this movie. I realy believes he knows, but he's also standing his ground that it's his family, his child. And Superman also acknowledges in a subtle performance that it would be best for Jason to be raised by two mortals, just as he was raised, and for him to be more of a guiding pressence like Jor-El was to him.

Either in the script or it was in one of the interviews (I forget) with the screenwriters, it's put out flatly that Richard White is Superman minus the powers. That is, he's just as good a guy as Kal is--- making the drama have higher stakes, because he was never meant to be the one that you WANT Lois to dump for Supes.

If anything, it gives both Lois and Supes a chance to be tempted with being selfish--- or think about others as well as their own happiness.

Richard did nothing wrong. Lois didn't necessarily (if she did think that her kid could have been Richard's --- and, so, didn't mislead him) do anything wrong, either. Supes neither- but it made it an interesting dilemma when there was no clear answer.

That Supes (it seems) gives up the right to be Lois' husband and Jason's father (for the time being) was something very unselfish- but bittersweet as well. For Richard to take on another man's kid and raise it as his own also would have been pretty unselfish... maybe there should have been a moment where Richard comes out at the end after Lois/Supes talk--- as a quiet acknowledgement that everyone is on the same page- to kind of seal it all up---- but I'm glad if, indeed, Richard played it as if he DID know--- and everyone is on the same page anyways. (Especially since there's never going to be any other kind of resolution to it, unless Singer decides to do a comic or something to wrap it up....)

[Deleted]

And people say having a kid ruined the franchise! If anything, it's the best dramatic use of major themes for the characters. It gave us somethng new to ponder. Snger and his crew didn't get enough credit for the good parts of the script.

[Metallo]

I never had a problem with Superman having a child. SR sure wasn't the first work to explore that. I respect the film for really going into uncharted territory for live action. My only problem is I don't think they considered the implications for the future. The kid idea is probably one better suited for the end of a series not the potential launch of a new film series. I don't think they gave some people time to warm to the idea

[EnriqueH]

I actually liked the kid. Ballsy move.

[crazy_asian_man]

In thinking about this title-
I wish the poll was phrased slightly differently.

I don't think SR had execution problems, but needed a supervillain (and the opening) blended in. At least Singer made the film he wanted to make.

MOS had a different approach- which I could respect (or at least understand)- but the problems for me was in execution.

Too many choices Snyder or his editor (presumably) made seemed to contradict one another--- or felt incomplete to me.

While Cavill and Adams seem to have great chemistry on the surface, the script felt like it was missing a good number of pieces (or 'the' piece) to make me feel like Supes/Lois really had the kind of connection where Supes would just fall into her arms (which he just about literally does) at the end.*

(*Wolverine I feel suffers from the same problem imo with its romantic leads, so MOS isn't the only one I'm criticizing for this)

Maybe if the poll were something like:

Which one has more script problems?

and/or a separate poll-

Which one has more directing problems?

It might feel closer to the issue at hand with both films....

[atp]

Jul 31, 2013 14:40:38 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

In thinking about this title-
I wish the poll was phrased slightly differently.

I don't think SR had execution problems, but needed a supervillain (and the opening) blended in. At least Singer made the film he wanted to make.
.

Nah, I don't think it needed a supervillain.

Supervillains were novel in S2, but now they are a dime a dozen. Think of all the supervillains in the Spiderman films, and that's just one series.

It's boring now. That's one of the reasons why MoS was boring.

I would rather have an interesting, captivating movie with NO villain than a boring, predictable one with a supervillain.

[crazy_asian_man]

Nah, I don't think it needed a supervillain.

Supervillains were novel in S2, but now they are a dime a dozen. Think of all the supervillains in the Spiderman films, and that's just one series.

It's boring now. That's one of the reasons why MoS was boring.

I would rather have an interesting, captivating movie with NO villain than a boring, predictable one with a supervillain.

Well.... I think of course it has to be done WELL, as the SECOND part of that equation. I agree just having a supervillain isn't enough just as is-

I don't know if you could have done much more with Luthor visually...... (unless you gave him armor, but then it'd be Iron Man all over again.).... but with a supervillain vs. Supes in SR?

It could have been great, if it also showed other shades of Superman's character while fighting- something that I felt the action scenes in MOS (and some part of the Spiderman movies) lacked.