"Superman died with Christopher Reeve"

[theoj]

An interesting and very thought provoking quote from my mum yesterday!

I took her to see MOS and SR when released but she can't remember anything from those movies. I enjoyed them both and tried to remind her of some good scenes, but she can only remember STM and S2 and only sees Reeve as the one, true Superman.

So in many ways, she is right when she says that Superman (and she means the classic, boyscout, wholesome, do-gooder, red underwear, truth, Justice and the American way superman) that we all know and love died with Christopher Reeve and will never return.

WB didn't really have enough faith in the true character of Superman to put him back up on the big screen in a modern but authentic reincarnation in the way that Christopher Reeve portrayed him. And perhaps they were right, in this day, to not go with such a dated and perhaps unpopular character that X-Men, Batman and Avengers fans just cannot relate to.

But will future Superman movies just keep moving away from the classic Superman of the 30s-80s or will there ever be a time when he returns in all his glory (and bright red underpants too!)?

Interesting topic for discussion, did Superman die with Christopher Reeve?

(And perhaps most importantly, because of Reeve doing such an amazing and memorable job of becoming Superman, that nothing and no one will ever be able to come close to that again)...

So perhaps our Superman really is dead.

[Melv]

Reeve's Superman is only one version and not very similar to the one in the early comics. The character changes and evolves as the times do. There may well be a day in the future when a more innocent depiction is required again.

I wouldn't write it off completely. Reeve said himself he was only a custodian.

[Metallo]

No Superman did NOT die with Christopher Reeve but no one has done a live action series or film with the same level of ambition or care since STM. No actor since Reeve has brought what he did to the role that made him so iconic a Superman. It's something internal and something that showed through in his performance. And if your main character, your Superman, doesn't deliver that as well then the adaptation isn't going to be quite as memorable. So much of a superman production lives or dies on the guy in the role. All the best cgi in the world means nothing if the guy can't make you give a fuck when he opens his mouth to talk in a scene that's supposed to be important. Reeve did it his way but he knew how to do it WELL his way and he knew how to strike just the right cords. He always engaged you. You've got to care about Superman before you REALLY and truly care about everything else on screen.

It was the same thing with George Reeves. He was another generations first Superman but like Chris he wasn't just a great Superman for his time but for all times. Chris and George made huge impacts on the character early on in their runs. George Reeves defined the character while doing his own take on it. Chris Reeve Came along and redefined him for a new time but just like George there was a level of excellence.

The 30s superman wasn't the 50s superman and the 50s superman wasn't the 70s superman. It's not so much about "different" but HOW WELL it's done. Superman was a dated and not as popular character in the 70s before STM. Performance can be the same or different but if it's not up to snuff it's just not going to draw people in as well. There is a reason Chris and George are a cut above everyone else in Superman's live action screen history.

Maybe one day another set of filmmakers and another actor will come along, and the stars will align, and Superman will truly soar again. All it takes is the right people and the right circumstances. It's won't be easy but it can happen.

[Deleted]

I don't buy it. Reeve was one actor. Tastes change. Eventually Superman will be rebooted again on TV or film, and we'll get something else. Fine by me. I've bought his movies four times over now. I've moved on.

[crazy_asian_man]

I don't think that the character died with Reeve....

One argument could be that the character legally is still 'alive' so long as DC/WB continue to make new product.... but then again, if DC/WB never made another movie or another comic, you could also say that Superman lives on through the old stories and old movies, tv shows, etc.

If one looks at it that way, then Superman the character can never die. We might be protective/defensive of the versions that mean the most to us, but Superman's a little too big and has been part of the pop culture around the world for too long to die that easily, I think.

[ye5man]

Has your Mum seen Superman IV?

[Deleted]

It did. If your knowledge of Superman doesn't go any further than the Reeve films, which are a very small portion of Superman history.

[Metallo]

Dec 3, 2013 1:12:53 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I don't think that the character died with Reeve....

One argument could be that the character legally is still 'alive' so long as DC/WB continue to make new product.... but then again, if DC/WB never made another movie or another comic, you could also say that Superman lives on through the old stories and old movies, tv shows, etc.

If one looks at it that way, then Superman the character can never die. We might be protective/defensive of the versions that mean the most to us, but Superman's a little too big and has been part of the pop culture around the world for too long to die that easily, I think.

"Superman you're just in a slump! You'll be great again!"

I STILL believe in that little bastards words...even post MOS. All it takes is one great filmmaker to come along who is willing to fight. Unfortunately the problem is today's Hollywood isn't the best breeding ground for the type of great behind the scenes talent Superman deserves. Even it they are there they either don't get the chance or the studios put their creative choke chains on em. Maybe that'll change. Hope so.

[ye5man]

Hope springs eternal


There could be potentially dozens of SR and MOS entries over the next 20 years, but all it takes is one great film (e.g. Star Trek 2009) to put the series back on track.


Anyway, its all Marvel right now and will be for at least another decade. WB/DC will bring us a great Supes flick someday but not happening in this generation.

[Metallo]

I think Marvel Studios has captured this generations hearts and minds in a way Wb and DC simply haven't come close to as a whole. And they are only growing. They can take a failure now and keep on rolling where as it's not so easy for WBs DC films. It just seems like a character like iron man is so much cooler to watch and for kids to want to be. They've totally rebounded when it comes to Hulk too. Ang Lees misfire is in the past and people loved the character in Avengers. Whedon figured out how to use him and how to make him work.

Right now DC is so far behind its not even funny. Like you said maybe WB Will have to wait for the Marvel train to run out of steam before that desire for a bigger DC film series gets truly embraced.

What if Guardians of the Galaxy is even a decent sized success? What's that mean?

[Jor-L5150]

For my dad, any superman movie since "superman II" gets the same responce:

"They're making ANOTHER superman movie??!!...why?"

But he's really not a scifi cuperhero guy anyway so....

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2013 12:17:01 GMT -5 Jor-L5150 said:

For my dad, any superman movie since "superman II" gets the same responce:

"They're making ANOTHER superman movie??!!...why?"

But he's really not a scifi cuperhero guy anyway so....

That seems to be the sentiment from the general public whenever one of these comes out. They have no clue that it's a different cast, story, etc. It's "oh, another Superman?" followed by an eye roll.

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 3, 2013 11:56:21 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think Marvel Studios has captured this generations hearts and minds in a way Wb and DC simply haven't come close to as a whole. And they are only growing. They can take a failure now and keep on rolling where as it's not so easy for WBs DC films. It just seems like a character like iron man is so much cooler to watch and for kids to want to be. They've totally rebounded when it comes to Hulk too. Ang Lees misfire is in the past and people loved the character in Avengers. Whedon figured out how to use him and how to make him work.

Right now DC is so far behind its not even funny. Like you said maybe WB Will have to wait for the Marvel train to run out of steam before that desire for a bigger DC film series gets truly embraced.

What if Guardians of the Galaxy is even a decent sized success? What's that mean?

The thing with Marvel is that their choices seem to delight (for the most part) BOTH the older fans who grew up with the comics AND bring in a new generation of fans as well.

With the newest Wonder Woman pilot, the Green Lantern movie, SR and MOS- (note I'm including both).... these were either despised by fans or divided fans.

If Kevin Feige is (if what's read is reliable) responsible for making sure that there are creative restrictions to make sure that the Marvel characters look and feel like the old incarnations while adding something new- then maybe Goyer is the WB/DC equivalent.... but where Marvel seems to be uniting older and newer generations, even with Nolan's Batman having gained a lot of points with fans- fans definitely don't seem to trust DC/WB wholeheartedly at this point with their new superhero film projects and who can blame them, really?

[Metallo]

Feige embraces what the Marvel characters are while modernizing them. Goyer doesn't care to do that.

The difference is Marvel isn't ashamed of their characters, what they are, and what they represent. Feige has said as much. Over at WB they seem to look down their nose trying to fix a lot of stuff thats not even broken. Feige said that DC should respect their characters and the source material and he should know because it's worked for them. When I see Captain America on screen he's had a few cosmetic changes made but he's unabashedly Captain America.

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 5, 2013 11:10:02 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Feige embraces what the Marvel characters are while modernizing them. Goyer doesn't care to do that.

The difference is Marvel isn't ashamed of their characters, what they are, and what they represent. Feige has said as much. Over at WB they seem to look down their nose trying to fix a lot of stuff thats not even broken. Feige said that DC should respect their characters and the source material and he should know because it's worked for them. When I see Captain America on screen he's had a few cosmetic changes made but he's unabashedly Captain America.

Absolutely.
Captain America the movie - to me- is Superman in spirit.

MOS - to me - is the alternate dark paranoid Superman in spirit. I still cringe when I re-read the interview where Goyer talks about how his stepson told him he wasn't his real dad, and that's how/why it got into MOS.

Still- I think Goyer is more trustworthy than Akiva Goldsman or another screenwriter with no connection to comics in getting the heroes adapted- but Goyer's filter isn't always the best fit.... if there is a good director attached, would Goyer now override his decisions? If so, then there goes the chance for a balance. I do think it's interesting that Goyer said that 60% of MOS he was happy with.... wonder what parts he feel didn't work for Goyer.

[Metallo]

Yeah I've said before that if anyone is carrying on the spirit of STM it's Marvel Studios. Goyers stuck using that same Dark Knight blueprint for everything because he worked with Nolan and saw it pay off. He's not gonna mess with the formula. But the exact same formula doesn't work for every character. Reminds me of Frank Miller doing the Spirit after he worked with Robert Rodruigez on Sin City.

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 5, 2013 11:32:14 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Goyers stuck using that same Dark Knight blueprint for everything because he worked with Nolan and saw it pay off. He's not gonna mess with the formula.

I actually think it's worse than that--- have you sat through all of his 'Blade' tv show, where he was in charge and was passionate about it? Everything he writes is dark and generally negative in spirit.

I don't think Goyer's using that formula because purely for profit reasons, but because (in HIS mind) he thinks the formula is a work of genius and is right for ALL the DC characters. (I still think he needs someone to balance him out)

But.... things are cyclical. After Goyer's reign, we'll probably see another take on the DC characters that may go back to the silver age.... maybe....

[upandaway]

I enjoyed MOS but yeah it has its problems.
What WB DC need is Whedon et al and get them to re invent the DC Characters just as they did with the Marvel characters.