Metallo
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The worlds finest heroes
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Post by Metallo on Nov 12, 2019 11:36:31 GMT -5
I have no interest in Picard. It just reeks of predictable ideas and desperation. My interest in Trek is at an all time low thanks to Abrams and Kurtzman. As for Generations it was fine. I was one of three people in the theater I saw it in on opening weekend.  Disappointing but not a bad film. Just very by the numbers with the least amount of effort necessary put into the story. If was fun to see it even exist though. Berman never had had the vision to deliver what those movies needed to be on the big screen and all the TNG film directors were guns for hire or tv guys who just executed his orders. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 12, 2019 14:40:21 GMT -5
I have no interest in Picard. It just reeks of predictable ideas and desperation. My interest in Trek is at an all time low thanks to Abrams and Kurtzman. As for Generations it was fine. I was one of three people in the theater I saw it in on opening weekend. Disappointing but not a bad film. Just very by the numbers with the least amount of effort necessary put into the story. If was fun to see it even exist though. Berman never had had the vision to deliver what those movies needed to be on the big screen and all the TNG film directors were guns for hire or tv guys who just executed his orders. I liked Generations & First Contact- but, yeah, the rest were horrible. I'd listen to the commentary on "Generations"- these guys tried, and Moore is a genuine Trek fan.... but it's funny because Moore is on camera bashing his own script, and Braga is reminded Moore of the situation- that they were also writing the final episode of TNG simultaneously and had certain plot points and restrictions built in even before writing the first word. In that regard, I respect it a lot given the context. I think add to that, at the time, they were also still open to fan scripts for DS9 and STREK VOYAGER being considered, if memory serves--- so I remember REALLY how hard it was to even write one episode for DS9 at the time. So there's that bias, too... |
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Metallo
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The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 17,075
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Post by Metallo on Nov 12, 2019 15:46:08 GMT -5
Moore was a great writer but Bragga was clearly holding him back when you look at how their careers went once they split. Like you said they were so confined by the shape of the story Berman and the studio wanted. Really anyone could have written it. I also think it was doomed from the start. If they’d had people like Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer still there Generations could have been something special. Meyer saved Star Trek VI so it really was more about who was charting the creative direction.
Berman and Paramounts attention was always more on Voyager than DS9 and that along with a better show running team is why one was better than the other. Voyager was the flagship show with a network riding on it and they were trying to appeal to a larger audience. DS9 had a more focused creative direction. Berman kept the ship going for a long time but the more he was involved the worse it all got and eventually his regime ran out of gas.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 13, 2019 3:00:35 GMT -5
Moore was a great writer but Bragga was clearly holding him back when you look at how their careers went once they split. Like you said they were so confined by the shape of the story Berman and the studio wanted. Really anyone could have written it. I also think it was doomed from the start. If they’d had people like Harve Bennett and Nicholas Meyer still there Generations could have been something special. Meyer saved Star Trek VI so it really was more about who was charting the creative direction. Berman and Paramounts attention was always more on Voyager than DS9 and that along with a better show running team is why one was better than the other. Voyager was the flagship show with a network riding on it and they were trying to appeal to a larger audience. DS9 had a more focused creative direction. Berman kept the ship going for a long time but the more he was involved the worse it all got and eventually his regime ran out of gas. I actually still like a lot of Generations myself- I always think it akin to Superman Returns- for the built-in constrictions that both projects had on it, I actually feel like both scripts are underrated for what they had to do and what confines both had. In both cases, they actually do have a theme underneath that I thought stuck with me days after.... with SR, mortality & how easily one could be forgotten & dealing with it--- with Generations, the idea of loss and age actually resonates more rather than less with me as time goes on. With many Marvel movies--- I mainly enjoy it as a big big Marvel history adaptation... but not necessarily something that makes me question a lot else. (Perhaps Black Panther is the closest one with a real message). Insurrection I thought a disaster on multiple levels- it might have started out with a great concept, but it just underwhelms and rings false on so many levels, that I'm suprised to know folks who enjoy it the best. Nemesis blew it with bad casting that was crucial to believing in the story (Sorry, Tom Hardy does NOT look like Picard's identical younger clone to me!)--- and a director totally unfamiliar with what he was working with. The screenwriter was a big fan of the show, and I could see that- but it needed a director who was more of a fanboy to really make the big moments come to life properly and an editor who could get what scenes were needed to make you care what happened. (Too many deleted character scenes imo that ruined it... X-men Apocalypse had a similar issue). |
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Metallo
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The worlds finest heroes
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Post by Metallo on Nov 13, 2019 21:03:35 GMT -5
SR and generations suffer some of the same problems but it’s mostly different problems. SR needed more action. Generations needed better writing even thought like SR they’re both dealing with deeply personal issues. If anything SR suffered some of the same issues as Star Trek The motion picture.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Nov 15, 2019 1:48:08 GMT -5
SR and generations suffer some of the same problems but it’s mostly different problems. SR needed more action. Generations needed better writing even thought like SR they’re both dealing with deeply personal issues. If anything SR suffered some of the same issues as Star Trek The motion picture. True.... both SR and STM had lackluster conflicts from villains that weren't really interesting pair-ups to the heroes. V'ger and a giant Kryptonite land mass just weren't all that satisfying.... To this day, I cringe when I recall that one of SR's screenwriters was begging for the same thing: a supervillain for Supes to have a more physical conflict--- because that could have worked to fill out what was missing in the film! (And easily inserted I think: If Lex used the Kryptonian tech to corrupt one of his minions and create Doomsday to fight, that would have felt better than having Superman's arse kicked around on the land mass.) What SR and Generations I thought had in common were tackling difficult 'balancing' problems---- Generations (and many of the Next Gen films) strained to give every cast member something significant to do, but also give the 'big iconic scenes' for the original cast members..... though it's a little cringe-worthy knowing that Spock and McCoy were replaced with Scotty and Chekov ..... with perhaps too-slight changes. At the same time.... I'd argue that SR had the hardest challenge because at least the Trek films had the tv shows' cast --- whereas Routh was held up to have to compare directly with Chris Reeve... can't get tougher than that, no? |
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Metallo
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The worlds finest heroes
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Post by Metallo on Dec 12, 2019 19:46:29 GMT -5
Very true. As far as SRs lack of action Singers always struggled with it. His X-men films didn’t get great action until DOFP and even then there were films with far better action sequences.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 12, 2019 20:39:10 GMT -5
Very true. As far as SRs lack of action Singers always struggled with it. His X-men films didn’t get great action until DOFP and even then there were films with far better action sequences. Agreed. The emotion and intensity of the scripts for X-men, X2, and DOFP made the action significant regardless of how well it was staged or shot- but the off-course script for Apocalypse made the action somewhat meaningless. On the flip side, there are directors who've messed up on the dramatic side, but have shot action in a really artistic way. Watchmen and the otherwise horrid "Sucker Punch" come to mind. Also "Wolverine Origins" which I thought had really great action, despite weaknesses in other areas. Also... What's odd is that sometimes there'd be FANTASTIC storyboards or animatics for some of these big superhero films that show up online- the first Joss Whedon Avengers movie had fantastic storyboards that came out online for sequences that looked 'eh' on screen- meaning that the director knew what was possible, but just had poor eye or taste in choosing how to go. |
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Disappointing but not a bad film. Just very by the numbers with the least amount of effort necessary put into the story. If was fun to see it even exist though. Berman never had had the vision to deliver what those movies needed to be on the big screen and all the TNG film directors were guns for hire or tv guys who just executed his orders. 
