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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 19, 2016 4:47:52 GMT -5
Well- the 'new' RDC has re-energized me personally. Don't know if it's had that effect on others.
Anyhow- (spoiler alert!) after Peter Cushing's character got re-created in CGI... while it looks pretty good- it's far from perfect, despite mega-resources.
I used to think that recreating Reeve and the rest in CGI might be a solution to truly give us the SII Donner Cut as it should have been.... but.... if top dollars can't get realistic people recreated yet on-screen, I imagine a straight-to-dvd SII would probably have lesser dollars to do the same.
Pity it's not quite there yet- though... even if the tech could deliver now.... of course, budget-wise wouldn't seem possible anyhow.
Ah well...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 19, 2016 17:48:06 GMT -5
I think it'll get much closer and much better eventually but a lot of people agree with you on Rogue Ones efforts. SPOILERS! www.darkhorizons.com/edwards-on-those-other-rogue-one-cameos/I think it depends on a lot of things and how much the filmmakers will ask of and require of those kinds of shots and effects. IMO the biggest problems stem from lighting, texture, and the eyes. I think it's also important to have some kind of actors performance driving everything behind the Cgi facade to make it look as natural as possible. Seems like they want these types of creations too brightly and evenly lit as if to show off all their work when it should be the opposite when they shouldn't draw attention to it. Close ups also don't stand up to scrutiny as well. Long shots are easier to pull off. If they were to recreate a digital Reeve for a few long shots and not for long it could be pulled off. Any more than that is pushing it. They've made huge leaps with the de aging effects. I thought the work in X-Men The Last Stand and Tron Legacy looked awful but with Ant-Man and Civil War it's much improved. I still thought young Downey looked not quite right and more like a video game render but it's a huge step up from the hilariously unbelievable young Jeff Bridges. Some of the young Arnie stuff in Terminator Genysis looked ok but once they went with new scenes of him it suffered If they did a young Reeve for minor stuff the best thing to do would be to use footage from outtakes and work with that instead of a fully built from scratch digital creation. We haven't gotten past the uncanny valley just yet. It's close but they need filmmakers with the right eye to push it and work out all the flaws.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 20, 2016 4:49:43 GMT -5
I think it'll get much closer and much better eventually but a lot of people agree with you on Rogue Ones efforts. SPOILERS! www.darkhorizons.com/edwards-on-those-other-rogue-one-cameos/I think it depends on a lot of things and how much the filmmakers will ask of and require of those kinds of shots and effects. IMO the biggest problems stem from lighting, texture, and the eyes. I think it's also important to have some kind of actors performance driving everything behind the Cgi facade to make it look as natural as possible. Seems like they want these types of creations too brightly and evenly lit as if to show off all their work when it should be the opposite when they shouldn't draw attention to it. Close ups also don't stand up to scrutiny as well. Long shots are easier to pull off. If they were to recreate a digital Reeve for a few long shots and not for long it could be pulled off. Any more than that is pushing it. They've made huge leaps with the de aging effects. I thought the work in X-Men The Last Stand and Tron Legacy looked awful but with Ant-Man and Civil War it's much improved. I still thought young Downey looked not quite right and more like a video game render but it's a huge step up from the hilariously unbelievable young Jeff Bridges. Some of the young Arnie stuff in Terminator Genysis looked ok but once they went with new scenes of him it suffered If they did a young Reeve for minor stuff the best thing to do would be to use footage from outtakes and work with that instead of a fully built from scratch digital creation. We haven't gotten past the uncanny valley just yet. It's close but they need filmmakers with the right eye to push it and work out all the flaws. Agreed. There has to be a TON of outtakes that might be able to be manipulated.... but the investment wouldn't be anywheres worth it to WB probably...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 1, 2017 20:16:19 GMT -5
I thought this was relevant to the topic
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atp
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Post by atp on Jan 2, 2017 2:26:15 GMT -5
There was far too much CGI Routh in Superman Returns, and it looked awful.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 2, 2017 10:17:05 GMT -5
Sadly what you saw there has become the norm. Have you seen any of the bvs fx reels? So much of that movie that was cg could have easily been done practically. Most of the shots of the Batmobile were cg and it was painfully obvious. Why'd the shots of the car reentering the cave have to be totally cgi? Nolan's Batmobile did most of the same stuff for real. Even Schumacher filmed the cave entrances and exits for real and that was 20 years ago.
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crown
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Post by crown on Jan 10, 2017 4:10:06 GMT -5
Every time CGI Tarkin was on the screen I couldn't help myself thinking this technology could be used for a Reeve/Kidder blank bullets scene for a future Donner cut of SII
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 11, 2017 22:43:40 GMT -5
Every time CGI Tarkin was on the screen I couldn't help myself thinking this technology could be used for a Reeve/Kidder blank bullets scene for a future Donner cut of SII It's a pity that those fans who can do this well in 3d don't try to matke a pitch to complete the RDC as written in the Mank script and have WB pay for it... but, oh well...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 16, 2017 14:27:59 GMT -5
A project like this would need a big budget that WB would never pay. The reason it happens for big movies is because they are new releases and guaranteed hundreds of millions in box office returns. Rogue One stood no chance of being a flop.
Even a re-edit would only come close to being considered for a big timely release of II or the series as a whole in HD. Maybe for the 40th or 50th anniversary of Superman the movie. Obviously not happening for the 40th.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 17, 2017 1:41:14 GMT -5
Yeah, I know it's more wishful thinking than anything else.
I think I"d read that some fx company did some updated fx for an episode of the classic Battlestar, hoping that the blu-ray would entice them to bump up the ship fx- much like how Paramont bumped up the classic Trek fx awhile back. (Though from what I hear, it wasn't that great an upgrade).... but Universel didn't bite.
Oh well...
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 17, 2017 12:12:47 GMT -5
It's doable with the right company. The same thing happened to Star Trek years before paramount had the official remaster done. A company made a pitch to update the fx. The Trek 30th anniversary episode of deep space nine showed me into could be pulled off.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 18, 2017 6:02:10 GMT -5
If you're referring to that great episode where CIsko and company visit the classic crew- none of that had any (to my knowledge) CGI recreations of people, though.
The problem, ultimately, I think is that there's never going to be (as far as I can see) a way for a studio to want to put the budget necessary to restore and generate missing scenes with deceased actors.... the closest property that might have been able to do that is Star Wars, and even then....well, we got what we got with Rogue One, but those were small bits.
While they couldn't do the Reeve scenes- I could see them potentially reshooting and 'de-aging' the Donner sequences that required Zod and company- (1) the original 'sheriff interrogation' scene (that takes place in a desert, and one police car), and (2) the White House speech by Zod atop the Washington monument (much cheaper and easier to do that effect nowadays plus Stamp is still around to do voiceover, if that's a better option with unused footage if that's a better solution.
Anyhow- regardless, it's painful to watch any version of SII without thinking 'what might have been' even more....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 19, 2017 18:03:05 GMT -5
www.darkhorizons.com/blade-runner-2049-fx-spoiler-explained/Spoilers! I thought this was very interesting and relevant to the topic. Spoilers! I was pretty impressed with how they're made the younger Rachel. At first I wasn't sure what I was looking at. Archival footage? Lookalike double? Sean young with cgi and makeup? Then it started to talk and I figured out what was up. Its not close to perfect but still by far the best example of this kind of cgi double/deaging technology we've seen so far. It seems to be getting better all the time.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 19, 2017 18:08:59 GMT -5
I agree. To me, I thought it might have been Sean Young with CGI overlaid to make her look younger- but, it wasn't perfect imo- her face still felt 'off'- but not necessarily in the same way that Carrie Fisher looked incredibly fake in Rogue One.
CGI is getting better- Plus, if there are fans killing themselves (there's at least one or two) to recreate the Reeve Superman on youtube, I imagine any fx company tasked with a Reeve Superman for an SII cut, would want to match or go past what fans were able to do on no budget. (Or even go past the fantastic "Hot Toys" Reeve Superman from awhile back...)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 19, 2017 18:33:06 GMT -5
The lips and eyes are the biggest hurdles with these things. In rogue one they lingered on Leia too long and on Tarkin waaaay too long. The movements didn't look natural and the textures and shadows still weren't quite right either. BR 2049 had it right with the lighting and the way it was cut. I don't think it's perfect either but it really is better than what we saw in Rogue One.
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crown
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Post by crown on Oct 19, 2017 23:17:13 GMT -5
Maybe we can do a kickstarter to fund a new SII cut?
The funds amassed could pay for some nice CGI to recreate Reeve and Kidder in Niagra Falls.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 20, 2017 12:37:41 GMT -5
The lips and eyes are the biggest hurdles with these things. In rogue one they lingered on Leia too long and on Tarkin waaaay too long. The movements didn't look natural and the textures and shadows still weren't quite right either. BR 2049 had it right with the lighting and the way it was cut. I don't think it's perfect either but it really is better than what we saw in Rogue One. I think the soft bright lighting made the CGI flaws harder to hide on Leia. Tarkin was at least in dark lighting, which I think helped... but I agree- if it's too hard to make perfect, they shouldn't have stayed on it so long. What I don't get is that the actress in "Captain America: Winter Soldier" who played an old Peggy Carter was actually in the film- with dots on her face for the 'aging'- which I thought was pretty convincing. I guess they still couldn't have had Sean Young play it and 'de-age' her now, without looking like Patrick Stewart in X3? In any case- it's got to be getting better, bit by bit....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 20, 2017 13:56:05 GMT -5
It's harder when the actor has aged and changed so much. Sean Youngs also gained weight and that's probably changed the shape of her face too. Notice the double has a similar enough build and facial structure to the younger Sean young. It was probably easier with Stewart in that he he'd aged but he hadn't gained a lot of weight. You probably won't see them try this technique with Shatner for example.
I think it's worked better for Marvel because you have the actual original actors driving the performances. They overlay the digital performances on the actual Downey or Russell or Douglas and can use the actual persons performance as a reference for those particular scenes. For dead actors or doubles they have to do a lot more reference to unrelated films or guess work based on other films. As good as a double is or how close they look they still aren't going to have the little nuances of movement like the actual actors they're standing in for.
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Post by ger-el on Oct 21, 2017 11:13:27 GMT -5
Another example if CGI work is in Logan. There were actually quite a few scenes where it wasn't actually Hugh Jackman, but a CGI overlay of his face on another actors. It looked very good, in my opinion. The technology is getting better all the time.
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dugpa
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Post by dugpa on Oct 22, 2017 22:29:54 GMT -5
Maybe we can do a kickstarter to fund a new SII cut? The funds amassed could pay for some nice CGI to recreate Reeve and Kidder in Niagra Falls. Perhaps the guy that does the YouTube Superman v Hulk could be persuaded with some funding...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Oct 23, 2017 2:09:41 GMT -5
Maybe we can do a kickstarter to fund a new SII cut? The funds amassed could pay for some nice CGI to recreate Reeve and Kidder in Niagra Falls. Perhaps the guy that does the YouTube Superman v Hulk could be persuaded with some funding... Absolutely!!! Considering how much he's accomplished without funds, how much more could he do with $ support....
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Oct 23, 2017 12:39:39 GMT -5
Another example if CGI work is in Logan. There were actually quite a few scenes where it wasn't actually Hugh Jackman, but a CGI overlay of his face on another actors. It looked very good, in my opinion. The technology is getting better all the time. Good example. I also thought the work on X24s scenes was pretty seamless. From putting them both in the frame at the same time to the subtle changes in Jackmans appearance with make up I thought it was some of the best "patty and cathy" stuff I've ever see.
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dugpa
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Post by dugpa on Jan 30, 2018 22:50:27 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 31, 2018 2:17:28 GMT -5
Scary implications.... but on the positive side, recreating and de-aging the actors for the PZ Criminals for a SII redo should be a breeze in the future....
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dugpa
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Post by dugpa on Jan 31, 2018 9:03:28 GMT -5
It should be a breeze in the very near future. The creator of the app hopes that one day soon there will be libraries of curated actor image data that could be pulled up on demand and mapped to any video in a matter of a few clicks.
Imagine the possibilities...
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