DC Films' Character Problem (video essay)

[Metallo]

The biggest issue I have with this is his criticism of Will Smith's Deadshot seeing his daughter at the end. I'll defend Suicide Squad on this one. It was Enchantress trying to trick Deadshot into not shooting. Sure it's confusing but it's consistent with things that happened in the movie before. Otherwise I think this is a strong dissection of the DCEU and shows one of its biggest problems. I agree with most of it.

Also Snyderman had an arc in BVS: finally accepting his place in the world as part of the world. Problem is he already did that in Man of Steel and the way BVS handled repeating the same character arc was shit.

[Metallo]

Another example of DCs character problem. Marvel got Superman and flash more right than DC did. I don’t know what Snyder’s original plan was but whoever made the call to give him powers before he got his forensics job is an idiot. It’s just a symptom of what’s wrong with flash in the movie and why we never get told why he’s doing what he does as a superhero or why he’s the person he is.

[atp]

I watched MoS again recently. IMO it only *really* turns crap from the Terraforming part onwards.

It does take a step down when Zod first arrives, but it is still ok.

First half is actually pretty good.

They really wasted an opportunity by having Superman fight that stupid world engine. He should instead have come to Metropolis and helped the airplanes and rescued people there.

[crown]

Mar 10, 2018 4:10:20 GMT -5 atp said:

I watched MoS again recently. IMO it only *really* turns crap from the Terraforming part onwards.

It does take a step down when Zod first arrives, but it is still ok.

First half is actually pretty good.

They really wasted an opportunity by having Superman fight that stupid world engine. He should instead have come to Metropolis and helped the airplanes and rescued people there.

Oh Yeah. It would have been JUST GREAT so see Superman save an airplane and rescue people. And also seeing Superman down a beer and wallow in his self pity and spy on his illegitimate children. SO MUCH BETTER than actually fighting something.

Oh and in case you didn't know I was being SARCASTIC!

[Metallo]

Mar 10, 2018 4:10:20 GMT -5 atp said:

I watched MoS again recently. IMO it only *really* turns crap from the Terraforming part onwards.

It does take a step down when Zod first arrives, but it is still ok.

First half is actually pretty good.

They really wasted an opportunity by having Superman fight that stupid world engine. He should instead have come to Metropolis and helped the airplanes and rescued people there.

I thought the film basically became unsalvageable from that point forward but it was full of crap parts throughout. Tornadocide was absurd. Superman taking Zod INTO town and endangering more people while he left his old mom alone with a bunch of pissed off kryptonan convicts was ridiculous. There are logic problems throughout the film and that’s Snyder and Goyers usual MO. They don’t think things through.

MOS and BVS were excercises in rehashing old or unused concepts from old Superman films or films that never got made. The world engine was basically a rework of Luthors plan from Superman Returns. Use kryptonian technology to terraform and create a new krypton on earth. Not to mention a ripoff of the genesis device from Star Trek 2.

HeII Khan = Zod: Genetically enhanced super soldier who wants to reformat a world and get revenge on the man who stopped him before) with the help of his crew of soliders/convicts who were cast out into space on a prison ship after trying to take over the world. Goyer is a hack.

Even the tentacle machine he fights trying to stop the world engine is basically the giant mechanical spider from Superman Lives!

[crazy_asian_man]

Mar 10, 2018 14:26:50 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Mar 10, 2018 4:10:20 GMT -5 atp said:

I watched MoS again recently. IMO it only *really* turns crap from the Terraforming part onwards.

It does take a step down when Zod first arrives, but it is still ok.

First half is actually pretty good.

They really wasted an opportunity by having Superman fight that stupid world engine. He should instead have come to Metropolis and helped the airplanes and rescued people there.

I thought the film basically became unsalvageable from that point forward but it was full of crap parts throughout. Tornadocide was absurd. Superman taking Zod INTO town and endangering more people while he left his old mom alone with a bunch of pissed off kryptonan convicts was ridiculous. There are logic problems throughout the film and that’s Snyder and Goyers usual MO. They don’t think things through.

MOS and BVS were excercises in rehashing old or unused concepts from old Superman films or films that never got made. The world engine was basically a rework of Luthors plan from Superman Returns. Use kryptonian technology to terraform and create a new krypton on earth. Not to mention a ripoff of the genesis device from Star Trek 2.

HeII Khan = Zod: Genetically enhanced super soldier who wants to reformat a world and get revenge on the man who stopped him before) with the help of his crew of soliders/convicts who were cast out into space on a prison ship after trying to take over the world. Goyer is a hack.

Even the tentacle machine he fights trying to stop the world engine is basically the giant mechanical spider from Superman Lives!

It's disappointing that Nolan didn't feel enough ownership of the film or from the outset didn't feel comfortable to guide MOS over some of the things I really had problems with --- but then again, TDKR in my opinion was a giant mess, and he was steering that ship.

I don't mind if there are recycled ideas from other films necessarily- as long as the whole feels organic and fresh.

To me, the main problem of MOS was that the dramatic scenes either weren't cut quite right many times such that it felt flat, or just had bad concepts to begin with (Tornadocide as you mentioned--- I'll add the unnecessarily whiny Clark shouting 'you're not my real dad' in the car- crossed a line I felt).

[Metallo]

I think he was just trying to do goyer a solid. It really was more Snyder and Goyers film. Nolan basically put his name on these for paychecks and opportunities to do what he wants with his own films. There was a lot of hype for mos when people thought it was going to have Nolan’s touch but after early involvement he really had little to do with it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Mar 29, 2018 21:57:13 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think he was just trying to do goyer a solid. It really was more Snyder and Goyers film. Nolan basically put his name on these for paychecks and opportunities to do what he wants with his own films. There was a lot of hype for mos when people thought it was going to have Nolan’s touch but after early involvement he really had little to do with it.

Makes me wonder with how everything resulted: Is Cavill (and all of MOS) out of the DCEU (as well as Batfleck?)?

It's funny/sad how, now, it looks like WB/DC in a way is focusing on solo films first, then worrying about crossovers second--- like how Marvel did it in the first place!

Aquaman might be a good movie, but he NEVER was a character I needed to see a movie with.

Shazam! at least looks promising to be faithful to the tone from a distance...

Green Lantern Corps doesn't have a director (not even sure it has a script) but rumors said it was still 'on track' (whatever that really means)...

I haven't kept up with who's directing the Flash movie (or if it's even happening now, though I did end up liking the actor in the movie)...

It seems like only Wonder Woman 2 seems like a sure thing..... though I can't think of any comic arcs that really stuck out (outside of the one where she lost her powers and learned martial arts).

Anyhow-
It feels like all eyes are on 'the real game' with Marvel's Infinity Wars and the plans after.

I'm assuming Dr. Strange, Captain Marvel, and Thor (?) may take the lead as the new roster of Avengers going into a next phase- if that's what Feige has in mind.

Wondering if there'll be new Captain America and Iron Man movies with new leads (mixed feelings on that), or if Feige will dip more into the Marvel library for more obscure characters.

For sure, Black Panther 2 (how could it not with its box office numbers) and (possibly) a standalone Black Widow movie.

Anyhow, will see. As long as Feige keeps things going, I think we'll be spared a 'drought' of superhero films, like what we experienced in between the Reeve Superman films and the Batman Keaton films back in the day...

[Metallo]

Panther is gonna play a big part in the mcu going forward.

Cavills still contracted for one more movie and I think he wants to stay. For one thing he gets it. Stay with the big franchise to get the big money and leverage it for other opportunities. Second...he’s got nothin else going on as a lead.

He might be in Shazam so if that’s a hit and he’s really well received we might see a MOS 2 but I think the best thing for superman going forward is to be used like the hulk in the mcu. Superman’s had two solo movies (in two different continuities) since the year 2000 that underperformed and then got shifted to team ups. Just like Hulk.

I recently rewatched GL and it’s just a massive misfire. I doubt the reboot will even come out by 2020. Aquaman and Shazam have to do well for it to even have a chance.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 6, 2018 19:56:25 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Panther is gonna play a big part in the mcu going forward.

Cavills still contracted for one more movie and I think he wants to stay. For one thing he gets it. Stay with the big franchise to get the big money and leverage it for other opportunities. Second...he’s got nothin else going on as a lead.

He might be in Shazam so if that’s a hit and he’s really well received we might see a MOS 2 but I think the best thing for superman going forward is to be used like the hulk in the mcu. Superman’s had two solo movies (in two different continuities) since the year 2000 that underperformed and then got shifted to team ups. Just like Hulk.

I recently rewatched GL and it’s just a massive misfire. I doing the reboot will even come out by 2020. Aquaman and Shazam have to do well for it to even have a chance.

After seeing Panther again a couple of times, I really think it did/does deserve the box office and acclaim that it got.

Justice League I think might have been better received if it hadn't cost so much and WB hadn't 'bet the farm' on it... at least reputation wise.

Avengers itself was a pretty good movie, but not a great movie- but certainly ground-breaking in what it did. JL by comparison was 'good enough' and cost a fortune with gigantic expectations.

Cavill seemed to brighten up as Superman for sure in the last section of JL- far mores than the previous two movies.... but I think you're absolutely right. They should use him for right now the same way that Marvel is using the Hulk.

It's sad that Superman has to be 'resold' to the public as a supporting character, but I guess what else can WB do right now?
Sticking with Cavill until it's time to start over again seems the only route WB/DC has... unless they decide to cut a deal with Marvel and Kevin Feige I guess...

[Metallo]

Superman’s not gonna be at the top again until someone comes along and does a whole new fresh take. They can’t rework the existing Cavill version into something else. It’s just making an ugly stained mess even uglier. It’s like trying to clean a dog sh!t stain on a carpet. All you end up with is a carpet that’s faded with holes rubbed into it and you never totally get that smell out. Sometimes you have to start over. Marvel at least had a solid foundation with Iron Man and they kinda did get to start over with hulk when they recast with Mark Ruffalo.

I liked Black Panther but it is kinda overrated. It’s not very original and the Fx aren’t that great but Marvels such a well running machine that it’s an entertaining and competently put together film. What works for it is doing the same old stuff in a new way. We’ve never seen a big budget movie like this where a majority of the cast was black so at least it’s something different from the usual far. But it’s Marvels reputation that made this movie the success that it is. If WB had made the same film it wouldn’t have done as well because they don’t have people’s confidence the way Marvel does.

Panther also has talented actors. I liked everyone in it. There wasn’t really anyone in the film who dropped the ball. That’s another place Marvel is suceeding. Boseman is a talented dude. Cavill and Gadot aren’t nearly as natural or likable as he is. People could root for T’challa. Gadot has her own kind of charm but she can’t act and Cavill is like a charisma-less black hole. Snyder casts on looks more than talent. Fiege and his people can see beyond the physical aspect and see something in their actors that makes them engaging.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 7, 2018 10:09:46 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Superman’s not gonna be at the top again until someone comes along does a whole new fresh take. They can’t rework the existing Cavill version into something else. It’s just making an ugly stained mess even uglier. It’s like trying to clean a dog sh!t stain on a carpet. All you end up with is a carpet that’s faded with holes rubbed into it and you never totally get that smell out. Sometimes you have to start over. Marvel at least had a solid foundation with iron man and they kinda did get to start over with hulk when they recast with Mark Ruffalo.

I liked panther but it is kinda overrated. It’s not very original and the Fx aren’t that great but marvels such a well running machine that it’s an entertaining competently put together film. What works for it is doing the same old stuff in a new way. We’ve never seen a big budget movie like this where w majority of the cast was black so at least it’s something different from the usual far. But it’s marvels reputation that made this movie the success that it is. If WB had made the same film it wouldn’t have done as well because they don’t have people’s confidence the way marvel does.

Panther also has talented actors. I liked everyone in it. There wasn’t really anyone in the film who dropped the ball. That’s another place marvel is suceeding. Boseman is a talented dude. Cavill and Gadot aren’t nearly as natural or likable as he is. People could root for Tchalla. Gadot has her own kind of charm but she can’t act and Cavill is like a charisma-less black hole. Snyder casts on looks more than talent. Fiege and his people can see beyond the physical aspect and see something in their actors that makes them engaging.

I actually liked Panther much more on the second and third viewing than the first (go figure).

Having so many Marvel movies (although enjoyable) lacking real depth I think made Panther a surprise when it tapped into something that had strong relevance without becoming preachy.

I do wonder if we would have gotten something similar with "Inhumans"- with the basic plot- maybe Feige felt that one big Marvel movie with the royal family struggle was enough.

In regards to comparing charisma, not to take anything away from Boseman, I think of Joss Whedon's comment that DC heroes are more like Gods, and Marvel heroes were more like people... and I could see that (for the most part)-

While I was good with Routh, I was fine with Cavill- seeing him written more like the 'classic' quippy Superman in JL was great- but who knows what WB/DC has in mind now for the character.

[Metallo]

That’s where I disagree with Whedon. Yeah they are like a modern day pantheon of Gods but that’s doesn’t mean they can’t be likable or charismatic. The tv shows are giving us more relatable versions of the exact same characters. Snyder tried to give us image driven versions so the justice league who were more like derivatives of the Watchmen characters.

If Feige had gotten The Inhumans movie out it would have been better than the show. They’ve done the royal family drama and betrayal twice now with black panther and the Thor films so they know how.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 9, 2018 14:01:04 GMT -5 Metallo said:

That’s where I disagree with Whedon. Yeah they are like a modern day pantheon of Gods but that’s doesn’t mean they can’t be likable or charismatic. The tv shows are giving us more relatable versions of the exact same characters. Snyder tried to give us image driven versions so the justice league who were more like derivatives of the Watchmen characters.

If Feige has gotten Inhumans movie out it would have been better than the show. They’ve done the royal family drama and betrayal twice now with black panther and the Thor films so they know how.

Ah- good point. Hadn't really thought about Thor in regards to royal family drama (I guess I was too busy being irritated by the dominating rom-com elements in two Thor films) .

In regards to Inhumans.... good lord. That show was so unbelievably bad- after ruining two comic book properties, I wonder if Akiva Goldsman will take Scott Buck under his wing as his new apprentice. ;p

[Metallo]

He could teach him how to fail upwards.

[crazy_asian_man]

Scott Buck's Iron Fist and Inhumans were incredibly disappointing on every level. Hard to believe that this was the same writer as was on "Dexter".

[Metallo]

Apr 12, 2018 23:54:39 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Scott Buck's Iron Fist and Inhumans were incredibly disappointing on every level. Hard to believe that this was the same writer as was on "Dexter".

Inhumans might be the most disappointing time waster of a superhero show ever. And i do mean ever.


Man of steel vs winter soldier.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 18:15:58 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Apr 12, 2018 23:54:39 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Scott Buck's Iron Fist and Inhumans were incredibly disappointing on every level. Hard to believe that this was the same writer as was on "Dexter".

Inhumans might be the most disappointing time waster of a superhero show ever. And i do mean ever.


Man of steel vs winter soldier.

I think Inhumans is in a tie with Iron Fist for worst show ever.

If someone was to do a fan cut with the best bits of both, you could probably choose the parts with Lockjaw and the opening credits of Iron Fist.

Other than that.... ugh.

[Metallo]

As weak as iron fist was I just felt like Inhumans was a huge waste of time because nothing happens. You’re waiting for black bolt to finally do something but he doesn’t. The imax screening was also a huge ripoff. Not worth it. Even imax was not happy over it and issued a statement. It’s like Perlmutter put the money in his front pocket.

Iron fist was just poorly made. There were shenanigans going on behind Inhumans that I still don’t think we know about. It’s like...the people making it (writers directors and producers not the actors) didn’t want to but had to and just put forward the least amount of effort. It’s like they wanted it to fail.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 22:24:13 GMT -5 Metallo said:

As weak as iron fist was I just felt like Inhumans was a huge waste of time because nothing happens. You’re waiting for black bolt to finally do something but he doesn’t. The imax screening was also a huge ripoff. Not worth it. Even imax was not happy over it and issued a statement. It’s like Perlmutter our the money in his front pocket.

Iron fist was just poorly made. There were shenanigans going on behind Inhumans that I still don’t think we know about. It’s like...the people making it (writers directors and producers not the actors) didn’t want to but had to and just out forward the least amount of effort. It’s like they wanted it to fail.

I was in the Imax theatre and my jaw dropped at just how bad it was. I actually fell asleep.

When I woke up, a lot of other people grumbled how bad it was and wondered why they paid the Imax price for a bad tv show pilot. I agree.

Iron Fist was poorly WRITTEN as well! Inexcusable, with all of their great source material!

Unless Scott Buck's pilot scripts were thrown out- I think Scott Buck deserves a huge amount of the blame for both of these shows. Funny that I haven't seen his name on anything since these two projects bombed...

[Metallo]

I think he’s done at Marvel.

I’ve noticed Inhumans hasn’t been referenced at all in any other show. Even the other shows vaguely reference each other from time to time. I don’t think it’s going to be considered canon and I think that makes it the first Disney/marvel show since the mcu era began not to be canon. I think marvel is going to treat it the way dc treats the green lantern movie: sweep it under the rug and just hope everyone forgets about it after it’s lost in the sands of time.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 17, 2018 14:25:49 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think he’s done at Marvel.

I’ve noticed Inhumans hasn’t been referenced at all in any other show. Even the other shows vaguely reference each other from time to time. I don’t think it’s going to be considered canon and I think that makes it the first Disney/marvel show since the mcu era began not to be canon. I think marvel is going to treat it the way dc treats the green lantern movie: sweep it under the rug and just hope everyone forgets about it after it’s lost in the sands of time.

With Marvel re-absorbing Fantastic Four, hopefully the Inhumans becomes Marvel's first 'reboot' and we can see a big screen costumed version of them, if only as supporting characters for a new Fantastic Four movie.

But- I do wonder If Inhumans is on the 'super-toxic' list- as Daredevil got shuffled to tv after the horrible DD movie (though it seemed to thrive on tv- at least season 1).

To me, I'd rather they go for it in retintroducing the characters on the big screen somehow and reboot it and just consider the tv show as 'never happened ever'. Who knows what's going on behind the scenes? (I'd love to know, but...)

[Metallo]

Daredevil wasn’t seen as AS damaged a property as Inhumans. It was also more well known than Inhumans was before either of them made it to the screen. Marvel tried to get DD on tv in the 70s and again in 1989 with the second Hulk TV movie. Fox was going to try again with Joe Carnahan putting together a reel to get the job but time ran out before anything could go into production and Marvel got the rights back.

I think just about anything can be tried again with enough time and effort. Look at Deadpool or Judge Dredd. Dredds up for another try with the mega city one tv show. Whats going against Inhumans is it’s obscurity but that’s also in its favor. I doubt most people even watched the Inhumans show. In five or ten years most people will have forgotten about it enough that maybe they can try again.

I think Marvel possibly doing this Eternals movie could be the first steps towards that.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 17, 2018 20:00:18 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Daredevil wasn’t seen as as damaged a property as Inhumans. It was also more well known than Inhumans was before either of them made it to the screen. Marvel tried to get DD on tv in the 70s and again in 1989 with the second Hulk TV movie. Fox was going to try again with Joe Carnahan putting together a reel to get the job but time ran out before anything could go into production and marvel got the rights back.

I think just about anything can be tried again with enough time and effort. Look at Deadpool or judge Dredd. Dredds up for another try with the mega city one tv show. Whats going against Inhumans is it’s obscurity but that’s also in its favor. I doubt most people even watched the Inhumans show. In five or ten years most people will have forgotten about it enough that maybe they can try again.

I think marvel possibly doing this Eternals movie could be the first steps towards that.

I wonder if they're using Eternals as the Inhumans substitute. Personally, I'd rather that they redid Inhumans, but properly with a big budget on the big screen. More interesting visuals.

[Metallo]

Partially but I think they’ll use Eternals to reintroduce the Inhumans on the big screen if it works. I think they know they can’t just redo it soon. They need some time and work to rehabilitate the property. They’ve done it with Spider-Man, daredevil, punisher, ghost rider, and even Howard the duck.