DC Films' Character Problem (video essay)

[crazy_asian_man]

May 17, 2018 21:02:56 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Partially but I think they’ll use Eternals to reintroduce the Inhumans on the big screen if it works. I think they know they can’t just redo it soon. They need some time and work to rehabilitate the property. They’ve done it with Spider-Man, daredevil, punisher, ghost rider, and even Howard the duck.

Still.... there's the case of Hulk rebooted under the Marvel Studios tag when Norton pissed off Kevin Feige & was recast- and it wasn't that long between the Hulk movie & the Avengers. Feel sorry a bit for the Inhumans cast- but then again, Michael Jordan bombed in FF under Fox, but was reborn as Killmonger in Black Panther. So, I think there might be some hope.... if there's a will.

[Metallo]

Norton himself turned out to be that productions biggest problem...that and working with Universal. It wasn’t just an issue of only a flawed production. Norton was very difficult to work with.

And even then once Norton was gone they fixed Hulk just a few years later. Hulk also had going for it being more well known than Inhumans and a track record of success. Hulk on tv was probably marvels one live action success before Blade and if it wasn’t the only one it was certainly it’s biggest before blade. There was MIB but marvel bought the comic book company that owned MIB it wasn’t a marvel creation. Hulk as a property could take a couple of “failures” on the big screen and get another shot shortly after.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 17, 2018 21:27:06 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Norton himself turned out to be that productions biggest problem...that and working with Universal. It wasn’t just an issue of only a flawed production. Norton was very difficult to work with.

And even then once Norton was gone they fixed Hulk just a few years later. Hulk also had going for it being more well known than Inhumans and a track record of success. Hulk on tv was probably marvels one live action success before Blade and if it wasn’t the only one it was certainly it’s biggest before blade. There was MIB but marvel bought the comic book company that owned MIB it wasn’t a marvel creation. Hulk as a property could take a couple of “failures” on the big screen and get another shot shortly after.

Except for the very last part of Hulk (where it was CGI monster vs. CGI monster)- I thought up to then that Hulk 2 wasn't bad.

[Metallo]

I liked The Incredible Hulk. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t awful. It was...watchable. When you watch the deleted footage it’s easy to see why there were all kinds of behind the scenes problems. I respect what Norton was trying to do and maybe his movie would have been better but then again maybe marvels movie would have been better. We will never know.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 19, 2018 8:54:55 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I liked hulk. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t awful. It was...watchable. When you watch the deleted footage it’s easy to see why there were all kinds of behind the scenes problems. I respect what Norton was trying to do and maybe his movie would have been better but then again maybe marvels movie would have been better. We will never know.

I see Scarjo and Ruffalo as 'substitutes' that have taken over. I still feel that Emily Blunt is Black Widow, Norton is Banner- but that what we see now with Widow and Hulk, that it's a hybrid of the actors with the character, rather than just the character.

I feel the same way with Scarlet Witch-but that's more because I see an Olsen twin (she's not, but it's the image I have)/half the character.

But, I always feel that way if an actor doesn't quite match what I have in mind for the comic character.
(Not crazy about Joss Whedon's casting- outside of Jeremy Renner, but in that situation, I also didn't picture Whedon making Renner a Hallmark card dad in private. That threw me for a loop.)

[Metallo]

May 19, 2018 13:50:12 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

May 19, 2018 8:54:55 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I liked hulk. It wasn’t great but it wasn’t awful. It was...watchable. When you watch the deleted footage it’s easy to see why there were all kinds of behind the scenes problems. I respect what Norton was trying to do and maybe his movie would have been better but then again maybe marvels movie would have been better. We will never know.

I see Scarjo and Ruffalo as 'substitutes' that have taken over. I still feel that Emily Blunt is Black Widow, Norton is Banner- but that what we see now with Widow and Hulk, that it's a hybrid of the actors with the character, rather than just the character.

I feel the same way with Scarlet Witch-but that's more because I see an Olsen twin (she's not, but it's the image I have)/half the character.

But, I always feel that way if an actor doesn't quite match what I have in mind for the comic character.
(Not crazy about Joss Whedon's casting- outside of Jeremy Renner, but in that situation, I also didn't picture Whedon making Renner a Hallmark card dad in private. That threw me for a loop.)

Widow could have been cast better because Scarjos not what I see when I see that character but she’s done a good job growing into it. Blunts a good actress and has the looks but Scarlet does well at playing multilayered and she’s gotten better at that over time.

I feel like Ruffalo was an improvement over Norton. They’re both better casting than Bana but while Norton projected that intelligence that Banner has he seemed too cool emotionally and too leading man and less Everyman. Ruffalo has that Everyman quality and comes off as more meek. It’s hard to picture Downey and Norton’s chemistry being as good.

I really like Elizabeth Olsen. I do see Olsen family resemblance in her when I look at her but to me she’s a much hotter less annoying version of her sisters. I never saw the appeal with them when they were older. Besides being twins. Their younger sister is much more affective and interesting IMO. She and Bettany have a good chemistry too.

To me Quicksilver was the twin that was a little miscast. I thought he did ok but Fox’s quicksilver was better than Disney’s. Taylor Johnson had some of that arrogance. It I thought Peters really showcased the characters hyperactive personality.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 19, 2018 14:57:31 GMT -5 Metallo said:

May 19, 2018 13:50:12 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I see Scarjo and Ruffalo as 'substitutes' that have taken over. I still feel that Emily Blunt is Black Widow, Norton is Banner- but that what we see now with Widow and Hulk, that it's a hybrid of the actors with the character, rather than just the character.

I feel the same way with Scarlet Witch-but that's more because I see an Olsen twin (she's not, but it's the image I have)/half the character.

But, I always feel that way if an actor doesn't quite match what I have in mind for the comic character.
(Not crazy about Joss Whedon's casting- outside of Jeremy Renner, but in that situation, I also didn't picture Whedon making Renner a Hallmark card dad in private. That threw me for a loop.)

Widow could have been cast better because Scarjos not what I see when I see that character but she’s done a good job growing into it. Blunts a good actress and has the looks but Scarlet does well at playing multilayered and she’s gotten better at that over time.

I feel like Rufallo was an improvement over Norton. They’re both better casting than Bana but while Norton projected that intelligence that Banner has he seemed too cool emotionally and too leading man and less Everyman. Rufallo has that Everyman quality and comes off as more meek. It’s hard to picture Downey and Norton’s chemistry being as good.

I really like Elizabeth Olsen. I do see Olsen family resemblance in her when I look at her but to me she’s a much hotter less annoying version of her sisters. I never saw the appeal with them when they were older. Besides being twins. Their younger sister is much more affective and interesting IMO. She and Bettany have a good chemistry too.

To me Quicksilver was the twin that was a little miscast. I thought he did ok but Fox’s quicksilver was better than Disney’s. Taylor Johnson had some of that arrogance. It I thought Peters really showcased the characters hyperactive personality.

I do agree that over time (and with opportunities Cap 2 gave in its script), Scarjo has come off far better as Widow - particularly under the Rousso brothers. (Whedon's 'Aunt Natasha' portrayal drove me up the wall, despite some interesting backstory flashbacks).

Ruffalo and Olsen I've gotten used to- While Ruffalo & RDJ - and - Olsen & Bettany seem to have great chemistry, I still am glad that Hemsworth, RDJ, Evans, Cumberbatch, and Holland were cast as the center--- as I see the character rather than the actor in those cases.
While RDJ and Cumberbatch have a lot of 'baggage' - their public personas seem to fit rather than contradict the characters they're playing. Same with Christian Bale- while he might have gotten a lot of criticism for blowing up at a cameraman- that also seemed to fit with the mentally unstable Batman character.

[Metallo]

RDJ is like Snipes as blade where his movie character has overtaken the comic book version and some people actually prefer it. RDJ is stark in a lot of ways. Of course he is basically playing an exaggerated version of himself but he’s had the same kind of troubled past as stark. I think that’s why people were dying to see a true adaptation of demon in a bottle.

Cumberbatch really stepped up as Strange in Infinity War. He’s been good but now it’s hard to imagine anyone else in this role.

Thor was never the most interesting character but Hemsworth has kept some of that cocky oafish warrior persona and made him rather charming.

I’m more convinced than ever that Whedon took the Banner/Widow romance from death of Incredible Hulk.





It’s too close. Even the themes of them both becoming monsters are the same.

[crazy_asian_man]

The Widow/Banner romance I felt was a big misstep for the Avengers- but then again, there is a small but key moment that got deleted () where Banner shuts down the relationship in a few words that also comments on Widow's survival mindset. Whedon has said in commentary that the rest of the film was supposed to play as if Widow wasn't all that crazy about living from that point to the rest of the film. I didn't quite get that, even if it would have been put back in the film, but it's interesting that that's what he had in mind.

[Metallo]

A lot was cut from the film so that’s always a factor. I think they added the romantic element to give both characters something to do and add emotional weight. There’s very much a familiy/parent/children thing running through the movie with Tony being a father of sorts to ultron who is a father of sorts to vision. Banner and widow are drawn together over similar problems and neither one of them can ever have a family. Hawkeye has a family and we think they’re going to lose him. Wanda and Peter are siblings who lost family. I think whedon felt like he was adding to that whole narrative with their hook up but it feels awkward and not really organic.

When you really think about it daddy issues run through the entirety of the MCU and most of its characters. Is Feige trying to work out something in his product? He wouldn’t be the first.

Star Trek had this whole huge part of it built on dead parents and issues with parents. Archer living up to his dad, the father line of the Siskos, Rikers dead mother and hating his father, Spock’s tension with his father, Data and Lores past with their father, Troi, Wesley, and Worfs dead fathers, Trois overhearing mother, Paris’s tension with his father, the Doctor butting heads with his father, Bashir resenting what his parents did, Kira’s anger at her father breaking during the occupation, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg!

[crazy_asian_man]

May 20, 2018 13:05:22 GMT -5 Metallo said:

A lot was cut from the film so that’s always a factor. I think they added the romantic element to give both characters something to do and add emotional weight. There’s very much a familiy/parent/children thing running through the movie with Tony being a father of sorts to ultron who is a father of sorts to vision. Banner and widow are drawn together over similar problems and neither one of them can ever have a family. Hawkeye has a family and we think they’re going to lose him. Wanda and Peter are siblings who lost family. I think whedon felt like he was adding to that whole narrative with their hook up but it feels awkward and not really organic.

When you really think about it daddy issues run through the entirety of the MCU and most of its characters. Is Feige trying to work out something in his product? He wouldn’t be the first.

Star Trek had this whole huge part of it built on dead parents and issues with parents. Archer living up to his dad, the father line of the Siskos, Rikers dead mother and hating his father, Spock’s tension with his father, Data and Lores past with their father, Troi, Wesley, and Worfs dead fathers, Trois overhearing mother, Paris’s tension with his father, the Doctor butting heads with his father, Bashir resenting what his parents did, Kira’s anger at her father breaking during the occupation, and that’s just the tip of the iceberg!

I think some of the best stories deal with unresolved issues with family and identity, so I don't fault anyone using those threads.

What I do really dislike, though, was the free pass that Whedon gave on Tony not accepting any blame for Ultron until a couple of Marvel movies later in Civil War.

Thor chokes him for a second, but that's it- Whedon is a great writer, but he may have been too ambitious or juggling too much at the same time. I just REALLY wanted a scene where someone really got into Tony's face that any death or damage was as a consequence of him building Ultron during Avengers 2. I'm glad it came up in Civil War, but the timing felt off for him to be held responsible or so late for him to suddenly really bad about it. (People die in Sokovia, but he only really feels it when a mom puts a picture in his hands? It was ok, but I think it felt more convenient for the plot he felt guilt at that moment than when he first made the problem in Avengers 2)

[Metallo]

All of them tho? I think you’d have a better chance of counting Trek characters that don’t have parental issues. Geordi was ok...until they killed his mom too. I get it when it’s in the line of duty but it’s like no one in Star Trek had a decent childhood.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 20, 2018 15:31:10 GMT -5 Metallo said:

All of them tho? I think you’d have a better chance of counting Trek characters that don’t have parental issues. Geordi was ok...until they killed his mom too. I get it when it’s in the line of duty but it’s like no one in Star Trek had a decent childhood.

I think maybe the guy who got frozen to death by Q on the bridge of the first episode had a happy childhood.

[Metallo]

They even changed history and gave Kirk daddy issues. He used to be the guy that caused his own son daddy issues until he got killed Tos was actually ok on avoiding that cliche for a long time.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 21, 2018 18:44:03 GMT -5 Metallo said:

They even changed history and gave Kirk daddy issues. He used to be the guy that caused his own son daddy issues until he got killed Tos was actually ok on avoiding that cliche for a long time.

I was ok with it- but then again, I think I know so many people who have had to deal with parent issues of one sort or another, it's odd when I find anyone in real life who DOESN"T have parental issues, regardless of age.... but maybe I need healthier friends?

[Metallo]

Not everyone has them. Not like that anyway. It was more understandable when characters have parents that were killed in combat as starfleef officers but even that got leaned on too much. Riker probably had the most interesting backstory with his father because he wasn’t dead he was just irresponsible and wasn’t around. I think more people can relate to something like that. Trois overbearing mother was another good one. Lwaxana wasn’t bad and she and Deanna loved each other. Her mom just got on her nerves. People can relate to that too.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 22, 2018 12:11:33 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Not everyone has them. Not like that anyway. It was more understandable when characters have parents that were killed in combat as starfleef officers but even that got leaned on too much. Riker probably had the most interesting backstory with his father because he wasn’t dead he was just irresponsible and wasn’t around. I think more people can relate to something like that. Trois overbearing mother was another good one. Lwaxana wasn’t bad and she and Deanna loved each other. Her mom just got on her nerves. People can relate to that too.

I thought the Lwaxana/Troi relationship was hilarious- oddly, when you see Marina Sirtis on stage- she really seems like a younger Lwaxana Troi in real life.

[Metallo]

Sirtis has said the older she gets she acts more like her own mother so maybe some of lwaxana comes from there. I think it was Barrett’s best trek role out of her four or five or whatever it was. I liked them all but I always enjoyed her as trois mom or number one in the cage.

Actually if they wanted to do a trek prequel I would love to see a cage era Pike show done right.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 22, 2018 20:49:16 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Sirtis has said the older she gets she acts more like her own mother so maybe some of lwaxana fans from there. I think it was Barrett’s best trek role out of her four or five or whatever it was. I liked them all but I always enjoyed her as trois mom or number one in the cage.

Actually if they wanted to do a trek prequel I would love to see a cage era Pike show done right.

Sirtis is loud and brassy in her convention panels- when there's a group of TNG actors, she always dominates-but with the right perspective, I do find her entertaining to a degree.
(I found her hilarious in sharing a panel where Shatner was, and basically out-Shatting the Shatner!)

My opinion to 'save' Trek would be to get the older TNG cast together and do a revival, continuing years later from Nemesis & just ignoring the movies. Personally, I think it'd be a ratings blockbuster. Or do a Netflix continuation, season by season so the actors wouldn't feel trapped by too many episodes.

[Metallo]

She knows how to entertain the crowd. I get a lot of these actors would rather be doing something else but at least she gives you your money’s worth and makes a show out of it instead of repeating the same old info people have asked her a million times. Frakes comes off the same way to me.

Trek just needs to move forward with a mix of old and new blood that really understands what Trek is instead of trying to make it something else. The franchise has been resting on nostalgia and prequels for far too long.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 23, 2018 6:55:54 GMT -5 Metallo said:

She knows how to entertain the crowd. I get a lot of these actors would rather be doing something else but at least she gives you your money’s worth and makes a show out of it instead of repeating the same old info people have asked her a million times. Frakes comes off the same way to me.

Trek just needs to move forward with a mix of old and new blood that really understands what Trek is instead of trying to make it something else. The franchise has been resting on nostalgia and prequels for far too long.

Frakes and Sirtis together are hilarious.

Sirtis went off on a rant about dolphins being hunted down during a panel, and a second later Frakes quipped that they were all planning on getting sushi right after the panel.

I agree that to succeed in the long run (if that's what Paramont is going for)- they need someone running it that understands what made it work and made it special in the first place.

Manny Coto gets it, Ron Moore got it, and I think Bryan Fuller gets it.

I'm willing to sit through the first season to at least say I gave it a try.

It will be interesting to see if the infighting between Paramount/ CBS/ Viacom/ whoever ends up turning Discovery into a two season Trek....

[Metallo]

Fuller probably fought the bullish!t as best he could. That’s why they let him go. The combo of Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman is like downing an entire bottle of prescription meds and chasing it with a fifth of scotch. No wonder Star Trek is so f*cked up right now.

One of my favorite frakes convention antics is watching him get in the crowd and ask the questions. Hilarious. At this point I’m sure they have to keep it entertaining.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 23, 2018 13:22:35 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Fuller probably fought the bullish!t as best he could. That’s why they let him go. The combo of Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman is like downing an entire bottle of prescription meds and chasing it with a fifth of scotch. No wonder Star Trek is so f*cked up right now.

One of my favorite frakes convention antics is watching him get in the crowd and ask the questions. Hilarious. At this point I’m sure they have to keep it entertaining.

SIrtis in panels is fun. At a booth, Sirtis can give off a vibe of feeling humiliated and pissed that she has to do conventions. So, not as much fun.

(Which is why I try to do a little asking around about whether or not a celeb ENJOYS interacting with fans before I'd go up to them to chat or buy something from them at this point. Mostly I just enjoy the info they share on panels, anyhow.)

[Metallo]

I get the same vibe off McFadden. I understand why with the same (sometimes dumb) questions sometimes for decades and overzealous fans making it even worse. I’d think one way to make them feel a little more friendly is to ask about other stuff they’ve done too or try to go for different questions. Even if it’s just to break the ice.

I’d ask Sirtis all kinds of questions about the show Gargoyles. Id ask Franks something stupid to get a laugh out of him like which one was more uncomfortable the Superman suit or the captain America suit and how does it feel to be the only actor to wear both?

[crazy_asian_man]

May 23, 2018 14:00:03 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I get the same vibe off McFadden. I understand why with the same (sometimes dumb) questions sometimes for decades and overzealous fans making it even worse. I’d think one way to make them feel a little more friendly is to ask about other stuff they’ve done too or try to go for different questions. Even if it’s just to break the ice.

I’d ask Sirtis all kinds of questions about the show Gargoyles. It ask Franks something stupid to get a laugh out of him like which one was more uncomfortable the Superman suit or the captain America suit and how does it feel to be the only actor to wear both?

I hear you on questions that can drive actors nuts onstage.

One convention had fans WRITE down their questions to be asked- I guess for screening them for stupidity?

I always dread the really lame questions that makes it awkward for the actors and audience- so I prefer good moderators- but then again, I can't begrudge fans getting a thrill from being able to ask something in person.

That also backfires, though, too---- The first time I thought Nathan Fillon and the guy who played Walsh (Sp?) on Firefly were being real dicks to a fan. One guy asked if he would sign something for his and his wife's anniversary as they were giant fans, and Fillon just shooed them off.

Was it really such a big deal to sign something for someone's anniversary, after getting in front of a giant crowd and sharing their story about how much they loved them and how it was big for him and his wife?
Big f*ing deal to sign it. (I could see if it seemed like an unreasonable request, but for something that just took a few seconds to do, I felt more for that guy.)

I like that the actors who have done cons for awhile know how to roll with the situations that come up, and are able to twist a possible awkward moment into something humorous for all to share.

I saw an appearance by Ted Danson on 'the tonight show' with Leno where he would cut off Leno by saying, "oh, I won't answer that"- to a few things that Leno would ask to try to open up a story for the audience, but he gave up after a couple of tries - and it was awkward. I'm not a big Leno supporter, but that just seemed lame. I felt for Leno. Why be a guest on a talk show if you're going to make people feel bad asking questions? It wasn't like the questions asked were trying to embarrass him. (I don't blame RDJ or any actor for walking off an interview if there's an uncalled for personal attack, but this was different).

Anyhow- I also get it if it's an actor's first time. There was a story on Caped Wonder about Reeve's first (?) time at I think was a convention, and he was understandably nervous- and limited his appearance- until he became more relaxed and comfortable, and expanded what he agreed on for the fans once he did, that was cool.