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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 20, 2018 13:50:29 GMT -5
We all know the story of how Richard Donner had all the struggles to complete Superman 1 and 2, but still managed to make pop history and made the first great big budget superhero film... ...but... I do admit that there are a few glitches even moving from Mankiewicz's rewrite of the Puzo script: #1: How did Clark and Lois get back from the Fortress of Solitude? We assume that a regular human being can walk the distance (and/or there's a shortcut)- But, in the original Mankiewicz script, there's a cut right from Blank Bullets to Lois' cooking at the Fortress of Solitude- and a cut back from Superman depowered - to suddenly driving back to civilization in a car. It's a big cheat, but... I guess we really didn't need to see Lois and Clark trudging through the snow back. (Or did we?) #2: Where did Miss Teschmacher go? In the script and deleted scenes, Teschmacher didn't die in the FOS (though the Vudu RDC suggests that's possible)- but she disappears abruptly after the snow sequence. In the Lester rewrite, there are a few lines written in at the end (presumably for voiceover) about Teschmacher saying that she didn't have the heart to see the PZ criminals- giving a reason why she's not in the other scenes. Again, I guess we didn't really need to see Eve pack her bags/ and/or get killed by Lex and the alligators, but... #3: Did Clark Kent even go to college? Young Clark I believe left Smallville after high school and discovering the crystal. Then he spends several years with Jorel in the FOS, then right to applying for the Daily Planet. No journalism degree... I guess he's just the fastest typist Perry has seen after all? #4: The big one: what happened to the time? If Superman always was meant to do time-reversal, there certainly didn't seem to be many/ any repercussions from it. I read a summary of the script that suggested the Fortress of Solitude 'blew up' from turning back time, but since we saw the tv version that Supes himself blows it up- it would be REALLY odd for him to turn back time, and have it blow up again (!) Again- moral of the story: Unless it's Bill and Ted - or- Back to the Future, don't tag on a 'time reversal' solution at the end of ANY movie.  |
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Post by Metallo on Apr 20, 2018 16:16:42 GMT -5
To be fair it seems like Clark Kent never has to do anything to get that reporter job. George Reeves got on a bus and Cavills job experience consisted of washing dishes and working on an oil rig. Did Clark even go to college in Smallville? Funny enough Superboys one of the rare examples that shows why Clark’s qualified to be a reporter.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 20, 2018 21:48:13 GMT -5
I'm hard pressed to find perfection in a lot of enjoyable films. It's a reason I cringe when people use it as an excuse to demonstrate why [film a person dislikes] is objectively bad. There are more to films than their plot beats.
All the things you post are true and silly. Also it's kind of silly that Kryptonians speak English. Also I don't think Superman pushing up on dirt would stop an earthquake.
Lex Luthor's lair would likely have a rat problem.
Superman's cape is unaffected by gravity when standing on the side of the building
Why does Lois' hair turn blue when Superman drops her?
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Apr 21, 2018 20:13:30 GMT -5
I'm hard pressed to find perfection in a lot of enjoyable films. It's a reason I cringe when people use it as an excuse to demonstrate why [film a person dislikes] is objectively bad. There are more to films than their plot beats. All the things you post are true and silly. Also it's kind of silly that Kryptonians speak English. Also I don't think Superman pushing up on dirt would stop an earthquake. Lex Luthor's lair would likely have a rat problem. Superman's cape is unaffected by gravity when standing on the side of the building Why does Lois' hair turn blue when Superman drops her? That’s true to a point but only goes so far. People will forgive a lot and don’t mind if a movie isn’t totally realistic just that it’s consistent. It’s when a film sets the rules of its universe then is often internally inconsistent by breaking its own rules that people have a problem and give up. That’s just lazy writing and we’ve seen plenty of franchises crash and burn when people say enough is enough and stop watching. What Donner meant with verisimilitude wasn’t make it realistic but make it consistent and take it seriously. Truth. Stay true to the nature of the character. Even when crazy stuff happens stm is pretty consistent tonally and with its own set of rules and the world of Superman. It takes silly stuff seriously. Not too seriously but it’s not a joke either. Star Wars is another great example. We shouldn’t be able to hear the sound of ships in space but we do. People didn’t mind because that’s just how Lucas shows to present his fictional universe. The films set up certain rules and stuck with them. The prequels went to crap partly because Lucas didn’t care and started breaking his own rules. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 22, 2018 21:34:16 GMT -5
I'm hard pressed to find perfection in a lot of enjoyable films. It's a reason I cringe when people use it as an excuse to demonstrate why [film a person dislikes] is objectively bad. There are more to films than their plot beats. All the things you post are true and silly. Also it's kind of silly that Kryptonians speak English. Also I don't think Superman pushing up on dirt would stop an earthquake. Lex Luthor's lair would likely have a rat problem. Superman's cape is unaffected by gravity when standing on the side of the building Why does Lois' hair turn blue when Superman drops her? True- it's just looking back after the ten millionth time I've seen the film that these things come out to me. Of course, it doesn't ruin the film or make the film bad, but I've always felt that the parts are so great and the tone is so good-natured, that you can't help but fall in love with the film, warts and all- but there are the imperfections. Still, to this day, it ISl amazing how fast Donner was able to whip this film into shape and save it- then on top of that make a classic. One other glitch that's always (mildly) bugged me: Jonathan Kent's voice "What was that?!" when he's driving on the road. If it was Glenn Ford, didn't sound that way to me- and on viewing, if it was another actor looping it as a last minute add-on: it seems unnecessary on close view. They could have just left it out, as I think the surprise still shows on Ford's face. |
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Post by Metallo on Apr 23, 2018 19:55:12 GMT -5
When I think about it it’s impressive just how little issue I have with stuff like that in STM because compared to newer films things dont really come up as much. It’s pretty impressive. The flipped footage in the Air Force one rescue really bugs me though.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2018 2:49:47 GMT -5
When I think about it it’s impressive just how little issue I have with stuff like that in STM because compared to newer films things dont really come up as much. It’s pretty impressive. The flipped footage in the Air Force one rescue really bugs me though. It is odd that an error like that would have come up to make that flip necessary- with storyboards and whatnot, but I have to admit that what makes STM special to me is having seen it in a theatre for the first time with a fantastic audience- that doesn't happen often, so that overall experience for sure makes me forgive a lot of any tiny glitches (that, plus it is/was groundbreaking in a million ways for a comic book film). I kind of get why Robert Rodriguez recorded and put in an audience reaction track to one of his movies when released on dvd. I wouldn't have minded if someone recorded the excited crowd reacting back in the day & having that as a separate track on dvd. |
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Post by Metallo on Apr 24, 2018 18:27:24 GMT -5
Sometimes I watch the movie with just the isolated soundtrack option. It’s a great piece of visual storytelling. You don’t even need the audio to understand what’s going on for most of it.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2018 0:07:14 GMT -5
Sometimes I watch the movie with just the isolated soundtrack option. It’s a great piece of visual storytelling. You don’t even need the audio to understand what’s going on for most of it. Absolutely. The visual beauty of STM really helps define it. To have it supplemented by the one of the best composers in film history was an embarrassment of riches- to have had Superman either be scored by John Williams or Jerry Goldsmith was a win-win imo. (I always imagine that Goldsmith's Supergirl soundtrack is probably similar in many ways to what he might have delivered for STM). Having the sequel be finished up by someone who didn't see the visuals as all that important to slapstick is just painful- but thank goodness that at least a number of the Donner/Baird set pieces were left untouched for SII. |
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Post by booshman on May 3, 2018 7:34:49 GMT -5
When I think about it it’s impressive just how little issue I have with stuff like that in STM because compared to newer films things dont really come up as much. It’s pretty impressive. The flipped footage in the Air Force one rescue really bugs me though. It is a shame about that flipped footage, that's something I can always spot in movies when they do it. It's annoying when they reverse footage to extend shots a bit too. They did that a couple of times in Superman 3. One of those shots is when Gus laughs after getting the computer to input 2 sets of co-ordinates in front of the tutor. One thing from Superman the Movie I always notice and I wish I could unsee is just before "Can You Read My Mind". You can see Superman's legs and he is clearly kneeling and not lay down. Sometimes I watch the movie with just the isolated soundtrack option. It’s a great piece of visual storytelling. You don’t even need the audio to understand what’s going on for most of it. Do know about my Superman 3 and 4 custom blurays? I did isolated scores for both of them. The movies are recoloured to get rid of the teal push, and have the original Warner logos added to the beginning. Superman 4 also has the 2 scenes from the international version. |
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Post by Metallo on May 3, 2018 10:14:29 GMT -5
The reversed footage of the cop sliding back over the hood of the police car in Superman IV and the reversed footage of Robin being pulled under water in Batman & Robin are two of THE most glaring offenses.
There’s a lot of similar flaws in those movies like the obvious wires attatched to Reeve’s cape in SIV and Clooney’s cape in B&R.
When did WB start using the silver WB logo on black at the opening of STM? Anyone know? I watched the movie on Syfy and noticed it for the first time. I’m too lazy to check the Blu-rays.
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Post by Metallo on May 3, 2018 11:30:27 GMT -5
This is what I’m talking about.  Apparently this was used on hd prints of STM that aired on Encore. Reminds me of the silver S used in promotion. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 3, 2018 19:04:54 GMT -5
This is what I’m talking about. Apparently this was used on hd prints of STM that aired on Encore. Reminds me of the silver S used in promotion. I think there ought to be a law that the original WB logos stay attached to the films they started on, personally.... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 3, 2018 19:07:53 GMT -5
When I think about it it’s impressive just how little issue I have with stuff like that in STM because compared to newer films things dont really come up as much. It’s pretty impressive. The flipped footage in the Air Force one rescue really bugs me though. It is a shame about that flipped footage, that's something I can always spot in movies when they do it. It's annoying when they reverse footage to extend shots a bit too. They did that a couple of times in Superman 3. One of those shots is when Gus laughs after getting the computer to input 2 sets of co-ordinates in front of the tutor. One thing from Superman the Movie I always notice and I wish I could unsee is just before "Can You Read My Mind". You can see Superman's legs and he is clearly kneeling and not lay down. Sometimes I watch the movie with just the isolated soundtrack option. It’s a great piece of visual storytelling. You don’t even need the audio to understand what’s going on for most of it. Do know about my Superman 3 and 4 custom blurays? I did isolated scores for both of them. The movies are recoloured to get rid of the teal push, and have the original Warner logos added to the beginning. Superman 4 also has the 2 scenes from the international version. For gaffes and stuff that I wish I never notice in the first place with older films, I just remind myself that it's the whole experience that I fell in love with. I don't know if that works for everyone, but I usually use that as a 'go to'. The flipped footage with Supes and the airplane I didn't mind too much because the 'S' isn't that prominent and I just tell myself that the wind and whatnot is the reason why Supes' hair is parted in the other direction. |
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Post by atp on May 3, 2018 21:22:46 GMT -5
What was even the point of flipping the airplane image?
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Post by Metallo on May 3, 2018 21:45:27 GMT -5
This is what I’m talking about. Apparently this was used on hd prints of STM that aired on Encore. Reminds me of the silver S used in promotion. I think there ought to be a law that the original WB logos stay attached to the films they started on, personally.... This is one time I actually like it since it matches other stuff used in the movie. I’ve always liked those special custom logos like the Universal logo for waterworld and things like that. WB has a lot like the one for the Matrix and Dark Knight. I also liked the Superman fanfare over WB logo in Superman IV and Superman Returns. |
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Post by Metallo on May 3, 2018 21:51:21 GMT -5
What was even the point of flipping the airplane image? I always thought it was to match the angle from the previous model shots and the shot of the model being lifted up. otherwise it wouldn’t really fit the visual continuity. At some point they messed up the the angle of that close up and it didn’t really match. It looked like he was holding the other wing so they flipped it to match back up. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 4, 2018 12:45:03 GMT -5
What was even the point of flipping the airplane image? I always thought it was to match the angle from the previous model shots and the shot of the model being lifted up. otherwise it wouldn’t really fit the visual continuity. At some point they messed up the the angle of that close up and it didn’t really match. It looked like he was holding the other wing so they flipped it to match back up. I’d be ok if digitally they fixed the ‘s’ shield. The hair still seems ok if the wind is supposedly blowing against it. |
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Post by crown on May 5, 2018 4:00:53 GMT -5
I don't understand... they say that The President is onboard, are they talking about the EG Marshall character?
EG Marshall didn't appear until late into Superman II... and his scene was also Donner directed.
So was EG Marshall as "the President" supposed to feature in this scene somehow?
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Post by Kamdan on May 5, 2018 5:35:33 GMT -5
I think there ought to be a law that the original WB logos stay attached to the films they started on, personally.... This is one time I actually like it since it matches other stuff used in the movie. I’ve always liked those special custom logos like the Universal logo for waterworld and things like that. WB has a lot like the one for the Matrix and Dark Knight. I also liked the Superman fanfare over WB logo in Superman IV and Superman Returns. Not a fan the use of this, since this black and white iteration is used for Clint Eastwood’s films. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2018 19:10:48 GMT -5
I don't understand... they say that The President is onboard, are they talking about the EG Marshall character? EG Marshall didn't appear until late into Superman II... and his scene was also Donner directed. So was EG Marshall as "the President" supposed to feature in this scene somehow? They're identifying what Air Force One is for anyone in the audience that may not understand the significance - children in the audience may not understand the significance of "Air Force One" but understand that the president is important. |
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Post by Metallo on May 5, 2018 19:29:57 GMT -5
Not only that but Air Force One isnt a name but actually a call sign to let controllers know the president is on board. Most people, not just children, but adults don’t know that so they kinda had to spell it out. If he got on another jet it would be called Air Force one. The marine helicopter he arrives in is Marine 1 and so on and so forth.
They wouldn’t really have an easily recognizable and accurate way to identify the plane if he wasn’t on board.
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crown
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Post by crown on May 5, 2018 23:59:01 GMT -5
Not only that but Air Force One isnt a name but actually a call sign to let controllers know the president is on board. Most people, not just children, but adults don’t know that so they kinda had to spell it out. If he got on another jet it would be called Air Force one. The marine helicopter he arrives in is Marine 1 and so on and so forth. They wouldn’t really have an easily recognizable and accurate way to identify the plane if he wasn’t on board. Okay so was EG Marshall on the plane??? |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 6, 2018 1:42:41 GMT -5
I don't understand... they say that The President is onboard, are they talking about the EG Marshall character? EG Marshall didn't appear until late into Superman II... and his scene was also Donner directed. So was EG Marshall as "the President" supposed to feature in this scene somehow? The STM extended tv cut also had a reference to the president (the agent on the golf course that goes to talk to him, but we never see his face)- but my guess is that Donner/Mank always planned for the President's face NOT to be shown until after his scene with the PZ criminals in the White House, so that there's the element of surprise when Zod asks who the real president is. I could be wrong, but I imagine that EG Marshall was always saved for SII for this reason. |
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Post by crown on May 6, 2018 4:00:07 GMT -5
I don't understand... they say that The President is onboard, are they talking about the EG Marshall character? EG Marshall didn't appear until late into Superman II... and his scene was also Donner directed. So was EG Marshall as "the President" supposed to feature in this scene somehow? The STM extended tv cut also had a reference to the president (the agent on the golf course that goes to talk to him, but we never see his face)- but my guess is that Donner/Mank always planned for the President's face NOT to be shown until after his scene with the PZ criminals in the White House, so that there's the element of surprise when Zod asks who the real president is. I could be wrong, but I imagine that EG Marshall was always saved for SII for this reason. I wonder if President Marshall ever won a second term? He probably would have been savagely attacked as being weak for having kneeled before Zod and pleaded like a little girl on national TV. I cam imagine Donald Trump calling him "Cowardly EG Marshall" for not having the balls to stand up to Zod. |
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