Donner hates the extended cut (unfortunately)....

[crazy_asian_man]

Came across this:
screenrant.com/superman-movie-extended-cut-donner-criticisms/

Hopefully Donner understands why the fans love that this is available, though--- and hopefully he doesn't do anything to block an SII extended tv cut widescreen release on blu!

[Metallo]

I’m glad to have it but I TOTALLY understand where he is coming from. It’s not surprising at all since it was cut for a reason.
When I watch it a lot of that stuff just doesn’t work and kills the pace of the movie. It’s still a nice thing to have just to see all the extra footage but as a film experience...I...kinda have to ageee with him. At least the 2000 cut is still tight enough to run smoothly. This also probably stirs up some old feelings towards the Salkinds

Directors tend to hate stuff like this because it’s just thrown in to pad the runtime. The quality of the film is a distant second. It’s the same reason Lynch took his name off the Dune extended tv cut. That’s the one I grew up but so much of it is redundant and repetitive especially with that voiceover narration added. I feel the same way about the theatrical cut of blade runner.

[Deleted]

I'm going to have to agree with Donner. I bought it as a fan of the film and watched it as a curiosity, but can't see myself sitting through it again. 

[atp]

I agree too. Most of the extra stuff is crap.

One exception is the longer destruction of Krypton. And also the extended walking to the fortress of solitude.

[Deleted]

There's probably enough footage in there if someone wants to make a Lex Luthor: The Movie cut. 

[Deleted]

The funny thing in regards to Superman The Movie, you need to work hard to find the original theatrical cut. Was it ever released outside the boxset? 

[crazy_asian_man]

May 12, 2018 10:16:39 GMT -5 @roffellamo said:

The funny thing in regards to Superman The Movie, you need to work hard to find the original theatrical cut. Was it ever released outside the boxset? 

Not sure.... but that is funny to think about.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 12, 2018 8:50:17 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’m glad to have it but I TOTALLY understand where he is coming from. It’s not surprising at all since it was cut for a reason.
When I watch it a lot of that stuff just doesn’t work and kills the pace of the movie. It’s still a nice thing to have just to see all the extra footage but as a film experience...I...kinda have to ageee with him. At least the 2000 cut is still tight enough to run smoothly. This also probably stirs up some old feelings towards the Salkinds

Directors tend to hate stuff like this because it’s just thrown in to pad the runtime. The quality of the film is a distant second. It’s the same reason Lynch took his name off the Dune extended tv cut. That’s the one I grew up but so much of it is redundant and repetitive especially with that voiceover narration added. I feel the same way about the theatrical cut of blade runner.

I'm thrilled to finally get it in high quality and am moreso hoping SII gets the same treatment.

I can SORT-of understand Donner's position.... just as I sort of understand Lucas' not wanting the original theatrical versions of Star Wars out.

BUT- I like how Ridley Scott was fine with all editions of his Blade Runner coming out- as it's only a big compliment if fans love these things enough to want to see every scrap of film shot for it.... and are willing to pay dollars for it.

I say as long as viewers have access to the version the directors prefer- most people could care less anyways in the mainstream.

Hardcore fans willing to pay for these things will have watched the director's version anyhow-

So, again, hopefully Donner sees that it's fans who love the original that want the extended cuts as sort of like deleted scenes sewn together. I can see him getting upset if he worries that the tv cut is the first introduction and only representative of the movie a person will have- but I think in this day/age, it's unlikely that a newbie would hunt the extended cut first, nor not know that extended cuts not approved by the director usually have a lot of fat on them anyhow.

[Metallo]

May 12, 2018 10:16:39 GMT -5 @roffellamo said:

The funny thing in regards to Superman The Movie, you need to work hard to find the original theatrical cut. Was it ever released outside the boxset? 

I’ve never seen it for sale by itself. If it is it’s not widely available.

[Metallo]

May 12, 2018 21:37:19 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

May 12, 2018 8:50:17 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’m glad to have it but I TOTALLY understand where he is coming from. It’s not surprising at all since it was cut for a reason.
When I watch it a lot of that stuff just doesn’t work and kills the pace of the movie. It’s still a nice thing to have just to see all the extra footage but as a film experience...I...kinda have to ageee with him. At least the 2000 cut is still tight enough to run smoothly. This also probably stirs up some old feelings towards the Salkinds

Directors tend to hate stuff like this because it’s just thrown in to pad the runtime. The quality of the film is a distant second. It’s the same reason Lynch took his name off the Dune extended tv cut. That’s the one I grew up but so much of it is redundant and repetitive especially with that voiceover narration added. I feel the same way about the theatrical cut of blade runner.

I'm thrilled to finally get it in high quality and am moreso hoping SII gets the same treatment.

I can SORT-of understand Donner's position.... just as I sort of understand Lucas' not wanting the original theatrical versions of Star Wars out.

BUT- I like how Ridley Scott was fine with all editions of his Blade Runner coming out- as it's only a big compliment if fans love these things enough to want to see every scrap of film shot for it.... and are willing to pay dollars for it.

I say as long as viewers have access to the version the directors prefer- most people could care less anyways in the mainstream.

Hardcore fans willing to pay for these things will have watched the director's version anyhow-

So, again, hopefully Donner sees that it's fans who love the original that want the extended cuts as sort of like deleted scenes sewn together. I can see him getting upset if he worries that the tv cut is the first introduction and only representative of the movie a person will have- but I think in this day/age, it's unlikely that a newbie would hunt the extended cut first, nor not know that extended cuts not approved by the director usually have a lot of fat on them anyhow.

It’s a curio. Like you and it’s great to finally see it in widescreen hd glory when for years it was just bootlegged versions from old tape recordings. But I do agree with him that as his (well it’s wbs film but the film he directed) film he never meant for it to be seen like this. I don’t think he likes it being seen warts and all and I don’t blame him. Maybe he should take into account the fans who have finally wanted to see it and look at it from that POV. The other cuts are still out there so it’s not like it’s just the extended tv version that’s only available.

The Star Wars lucas issue is a different beast since he doesn’t want people to see the film they grew up on at all. No one stopped him from releasing the special editions but he never gave fans a good choice to see the theatrical versions at their best. The extended tv cut was never intended for theaters. Like Donner said it was an assembly. It’d be like a studio releasing a workprint with the temp music and anamatics as an official release and not as an extra.

With Star Wars lucas is intent on burying the version of the film that was released and loved by people. The version that is historically significant. That's the version that changed the industry.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 12, 2018 23:10:41 GMT -5 Metallo said:

May 12, 2018 21:37:19 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I'm thrilled to finally get it in high quality and am moreso hoping SII gets the same treatment.

I can SORT-of understand Donner's position.... just as I sort of understand Lucas' not wanting the original theatrical versions of Star Wars out.

BUT- I like how Ridley Scott was fine with all editions of his Blade Runner coming out- as it's only a big compliment if fans love these things enough to want to see every scrap of film shot for it.... and are willing to pay dollars for it.

I say as long as viewers have access to the version the directors prefer- most people could care less anyways in the mainstream.

Hardcore fans willing to pay for these things will have watched the director's version anyhow-

So, again, hopefully Donner sees that it's fans who love the original that want the extended cuts as sort of like deleted scenes sewn together. I can see him getting upset if he worries that the tv cut is the first introduction and only representative of the movie a person will have- but I think in this day/age, it's unlikely that a newbie would hunt the extended cut first, nor not know that extended cuts not approved by the director usually have a lot of fat on them anyhow.

It’s a curio. Like you and it’s great to finally see it in widescreen hd glory when for years it was just bootlegged versions from old tape recordings. But I do agree with him that as his (well it’s wbs film but the film he directed) film he never meant for it to be seen like this. I don’t think he likes it being seen warts and all and I don’t blame him. Maybe he should take into account the fans who have finally wanted to see it and look at it from that POV. The other cuts are still out there so it’s not like it’s just the extended tv version that’s only available.

The Star Wars lucas issue is a different beast since he doesn’t want people to see the film they grew up on at all. No one stopped him from releasing the special editions but he never gave fans a good choice to see the theatrical versions at their best. The extended tv cut was never intended for theaters. Like Donner said it was an assembly. It’d be like a studio releasing a workprint with the temp music and anamatics as an official release and not as an extra.

With Star Wars lucas is intent on burying the version of the film that was released and loved by people. The version that is historically significant. That's the version that changed the industry.

Right- I think as long as the director's version is available- and fans are willing to pay the money to see it... unless a director Is actually paying the actors out of his pocket- a movie is all the moving parts- moments by an actor that may never be seen, art director's work that may be off-camera, etc.--- a director isn't the only artist who has their work presented in front of the camera- and if it's documented on film beautifully, then why rob the world from seeing those?

Lucas' ego is ridiculous. If Spielberg is willing to have original versions out as well as his refined versions, what's Lucas' problem? Star Wars is what gave him ultimate financial freedom- and many fans contributed to that.
I could sort of understand if keeping his cut was somehow tied into feeding his kids, or whatnot- but doing things this way just seems to make fans resent rather than respect him more.

[Metallo]

Star Trek handled it right. Both versions were available on dvd and Blu-ray. Lucas just shows he doesn’t give a toss about the fans that made him rich, just about milking them. I refused to buy the official Star Wars Blu-rays. He could have put both versions of each movie on Blu-ray.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 13, 2018 15:46:16 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Star Trek handled it right. Both versions were available on dvd and Blu-ray. Lucas just shows he doesn’t give a toss about the fans that made him rich, just about milking them. I refused to buy the official Star Wars Blu-rays. He could have put both versions of each movie on Blu-ray.

I sense a deep sense of insecurity with Lucas. He was quoted when asked about making more movies about why he should (after he did the prequels) when people just hate him for it.

It's odd how Lucas ruined his own films (imo) by pulling a 'Lester' on himself by inserting Ewoks and coincidental twin siblings in Return of the Jedi.

The original plan for Return of the Jedi (according to Gary Kurtz) would have been awesome- the rebellion wins, but Han dies, Leia becomes the Queen of the empire, and Luke has to leave to search for his twin sister that's out there somewhere.

[Metallo]

I think so. I think the reaction to the prequels and special editions hurt him personally. He had to know him being in charge might have hurt the sequels. They would have made tons of money either way but just not as much.

Lucas surrounded himself with yes me after the original trilogy. He has to know what’s why some people think the prequels were so poor after collaborating much more on the OT. He has to know his ego got in the way.

Lucas is a perfectionist when it comes who what his forte is. But as technology visual effects technology advances its NEVER going to be perfect. At some point a painter has to step away from the canvas. I at least understand wanting to constantly improve the effects but stuff like the NOOO...and R2 getting put behind a cgi rock are the worst. He just comes off as indecisive. He could have done those things in the era the films were originally made but didn’t so he shouldn’t second guess creative decisions like that.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 13:43:04 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think so. I think the reaction to the prequels and special editions hurt him personally. He had to know him being in charge might have hurt the sequels. They would have made tons of money either way but just not as much.

Lucas surrounded himself with yes me after the original trilogy. He has to know what’s why some people think the prequels were so poor after collaborating much more on the OT. He has to know his ego got in the way.

Lucas is a perfectionist when it comes who what his forte is. But as technology visual effects technology advances its NEVER going to be perfect. At some point a painter has to step away from the canvas. I at least understand wanting to constantly improve the effects but stuff like the NOOO...and R2 getting put behind a cgi rock are the worst. He just comes off as indecisive. He could have done those things in the era the films were originally made but didn’t so he shouldn’t second guess creative decisions like that.

I can't tell if it's too much ego or not enough ego that damages an artist.

I can't tell you how many times I've talked with filmmaking friends (on an indie level) who I've agreed on a zillion things with OTHER people's films- but when it came to their own stories, it felt like a blindspot.

I do kind of get how sometimes people need to puff themselves up if they go into an arena full of rejection and criticism - but if you make a billion dollars from your original films that people adore and worship, why the heck can't you release your original cuts?

I do also kind of get being torn over correcting past works to update or not. Alan Moore finished up writing 'V for Vendetta' after years in-between, and toyed with updating the original chapters, but then thought it best to just let the original chapters stay as it was and continue from there.

Lucas also got in the way of Indy 4 taking so long- apparently Darabont, Speilberg, and Ford all agreed on a script years ago-but Lucas got in the way. Ug.

Really, what the heck??? On one hand, Lucas created Star Wars and Indy. On the other hand, he's been his worse enemy with continuing them and ruining them.

He's like Donner and Lester in one person! ;o

[Deleted]

May 14, 2018 13:43:04 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think so. I think the reaction to the prequels and special editions hurt him personally. He had to know him being in charge might have hurt the sequels. They would have made tons of money either way but just not as much.

Lucas surrounded himself with yes me after the original trilogy. He has to know what’s why some people think the prequels were so poor after collaborating much more on the OT. He has to know his ego got in the way.

Lucas is a perfectionist when it comes who what his forte is. But as technology visual effects technology advances its NEVER going to be perfect. At some point a painter has to step away from the canvas. I at least understand wanting to constantly improve the effects but stuff like the NOOO...and R2 getting put behind a cgi rock are the worst. He just comes off as indecisive. He could have done those things in the era the films were originally made but didn’t so he shouldn’t second guess creative decisions like that.

If you have an hour to burn, the documentary to The Phantom Menace is fascinating - there's a sense of dread in the whole thing as Lucas' assistants look rather uncomfortable with a lot of choices Lucas made, with Lucas realizing he's made a mess of a film. I appreciate how they released this when it's not all that flattering. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=da8s9m4zEpo

[Metallo]

I’m not sure if I’ve seen that one or not but I’ll check it out when I get a chance. I remember even in the documentaries that came with the dvds way back when you could tell there was an awkward feeling in the room when Lucas was laying out his plans for the PT. Even if he never admits it I think he knows what he did. I think that’s a big reason he sold to Disney. He was just tired of it and knew this would be his best chance to make that much money even if he’d directed the sequels himself. His image among the fanbase took a real beating.

[Metallo]

May 14, 2018 14:19:51 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

May 14, 2018 13:43:04 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think so. I think the reaction to the prequels and special editions hurt him personally. He had to know him being in charge might have hurt the sequels. They would have made tons of money either way but just not as much.

Lucas surrounded himself with yes me after the original trilogy. He has to know what’s why some people think the prequels were so poor after collaborating much more on the OT. He has to know his ego got in the way.

Lucas is a perfectionist when it comes who what his forte is. But as technology visual effects technology advances its NEVER going to be perfect. At some point a painter has to step away from the canvas. I at least understand wanting to constantly improve the effects but stuff like the NOOO...and R2 getting put behind a cgi rock are the worst. He just comes off as indecisive. He could have done those things in the era the films were originally made but didn’t so he shouldn’t second guess creative decisions like that.

I can't tell if it's too much ego or not enough ego that damages an artist.

I can't tell you how many times I've talked with filmmaking friends (on an indie level) who I've agreed on a zillion things with OTHER people's films- but when it came to their own stories, it felt like a blindspot.

I do kind of get how sometimes people need to puff themselves up if they go into an arena full of rejection and criticism - but if you make a billion dollars from your original films that people adore and worship, why the heck can't you release your original cuts?

I do also kind of get being torn over correcting past works to update or not. Alan Moore finished up writing 'V for Vendetta' after years in-between, and toyed with updating the original chapters, but then thought it best to just let the original chapters stay as it was and continue from there.

Lucas also got in the way of Indy 4 taking so long- apparently Darabont, Speilberg, and Ford all agreed on a script years ago-but Lucas got in the way. Ug.

Really, what the heck??? On one hand, Lucas created Star Wars and Indy. On the other hand, he's been his worse enemy with continuing them and ruining them.

He's like Donner and Lester in one person! ;o

I think there is a point when some creators can’t step back and be objective because they’re too close roonit have worked too hard and are too passionate. On the Batman a robin documentaries a lot of the crew seemed to feel that way. Even decades later some of them were pretty defensive. Everyone makes mistakes but it’s the one years later that can’t admit it that’s annoying. I get the pr need to pass the blame and never admit a mistake to protect ones career but once it’s long past and doesn’t matter it just becomes an issue of pride.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 17:53:31 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’m not sure if I’ve seen that one or not but I’ll check it out when I get a chance. I remember even in the documentaries that came with the dvds way back when you could tell there was an awkward feeling in the room when Lucas was laying out his plans for the PT. Even if he never admits it I think he knows what he did. I think that’s a big reason he sold to Disney. He was just tired of it and knew this would be his best chance to make that much money even if he’d directed the sequels himself. His image among the fanbase took a real beating.

It's got to be frustrating feeling like he knows best- but then have the world turn around and tell him that he doesn't necessarily, over and over again... even with the box office success.

It's weird seeing Ridley Scott get angry more than once on camera asking why he has to justify his choices and why people on set question his choices.

It seems like the most secure directors are the ones that write (or can write) as well.

[Metallo]

May 14, 2018 18:01:09 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

May 14, 2018 17:53:31 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’m not sure if I’ve seen that one or not but I’ll check it out when I get a chance. I remember even in the documentaries that came with the dvds way back when you could tell there was an awkward feeling in the room when Lucas was laying out his plans for the PT. Even if he never admits it I think he knows what he did. I think that’s a big reason he sold to Disney. He was just tired of it and knew this would be his best chance to make that much money even if he’d directed the sequels himself. His image among the fanbase took a real beating.

It's got to be frustrating feeling like he knows best- but then have the world turn around and tell him that he doesn't necessarily, over and over again... even with the box office success.

It's weird seeing Ridley Scott get angry more than once on camera asking why he has to justify his choices and why people on set question his choices.

It seems like the most secure directors are the ones that write (or can write) as well.

They’re both out of touch old men but after a while couldn’t seem to admit that their first successes weren’t solo efforts but collaborative and that’s why the worked. They just led the charge and had the visions but worked with other people to execute. They’ve become victims of their own so called visionary genius.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 17:37:43 GMT -5 @roffellamo said:

May 14, 2018 13:43:04 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think so. I think the reaction to the prequels and special editions hurt him personally. He had to know him being in charge might have hurt the sequels. They would have made tons of money either way but just not as much.

Lucas surrounded himself with yes me after the original trilogy. He has to know what’s why some people think the prequels were so poor after collaborating much more on the OT. He has to know his ego got in the way.

Lucas is a perfectionist when it comes who what his forte is. But as technology visual effects technology advances its NEVER going to be perfect. At some point a painter has to step away from the canvas. I at least understand wanting to constantly improve the effects but stuff like the NOOO...and R2 getting put behind a cgi rock are the worst. He just comes off as indecisive. He could have done those things in the era the films were originally made but didn’t so he shouldn’t second guess creative decisions like that.

If you have an hour to burn, the documentary to The Phantom Menace is fascinating - there's a sense of dread in the whole thing as Lucas' assistants look rather uncomfortable with a lot of choices Lucas made, with Lucas realizing he's made a mess of a film. I appreciate how they released this when it's not all that flattering. 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=da8s9m4zEpo

An old friend of mine worked on this doing storyboards. Said that Lucas was a nice guy- but in looking at his original designs for the Qui-Bon fights, I might be biased, but I thought my friend's ideas were much better than what occurred on-screen.

At the same time, I do have to say with Avengers, there were also storyboards for some of the fights that were amazing- while what Joss Whedon chose many times were on the TV movie level.

[booshman]

I get Donner not wanting anything to do with this cut, but he can bugger off with his logic. He can't possibly be unaware of people's interest in seeing extra footage, I remember Thau saying at one point they were going to be putting much more footage back into the special edition version than the 8 minutes they ended up doing, so he's not opposed to having a tinker with the theatrical cut of the movie himself. I'm a little sad to hear that the theatrical is not his preferred cut of the film. It took a really long time to get the original cut of the movie and the original audio. I'm very glad to have it now, and even though I enjoy these extra versions, that is the definitive cut of the film.

[crown]

I was all excited to see more Brando footage in the 2000 re-cut of STM.

But it grinds the movie to a halt and is unnecessary.

Theatrical all the way.

BUUUT... it would have been interesting if Thau had gone through his original plan of a shorter flying sequence (cutting the song) and trimmed Otis walking through Grand Central.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 20:23:40 GMT -5 crown said:

I was all excited to see more Brando footage in the 2000 re-cut of STM.

But it grinds the movie to a halt and is unnecessary.

Theatrical all the way.

BUUUT... it would have been interesting if Thau had gone through his original plan of a shorter flying sequence (cutting the song) and trimmed Otis walking through Grand Central.

A friend of mine remarked that he thought the added Brando scene added even more of a context to the scene of Supes about to reveal his identity to Lois.

To me, the moment where Supes tries to 'hug' his father, but then Brando dissolves was a lot more powerful than I had imagined for even the few seconds.
I am curious why the fx on Brando's face were so weird, though- why was the original fx so hard to duplicate?

[crazy_asian_man]

May 14, 2018 19:51:59 GMT -5 booshman said:

I get Donner not wanting anything to do with this cut, but he can bugger off with his logic. He can't possibly be unaware of people's interest in seeing extra footage, I remember Thau saying at one point they were going to be putting much more footage back into the special edition version than the 8 minutes they ended up doing, so he's not opposed to having a tinker with the theatrical cut of the movie himself. I'm a little sad to hear that the theatrical is not his preferred cut of the film. It took a really long time to get the original cut of the movie and the original audio. I'm very glad to have it now, and even though I enjoy these extra versions, that is the definitive cut of the film.

What Donner (and Lucas) might not get is that the movies they made have actually taken on a bigger life than just being 'their' movies. They're both beloved by the world, and a good number of people have seen the theatrical a zillion times and know the theatrical from front to back. I imagine these are the folks (like us) who love it enough to see every scrap of it, otherwise why bother to watch/buy the extended cut?

If anything, both of them should be flattered that the world cares enough to even see an imperfect version-and/or the stuff on the cutting room floor.

I'm glad that Ridley Scott and Speilberg seem to have no problem with releasing extra material....