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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 21, 2019 17:40:17 GMT -5
I don’t necessarily think it’s the number of shows. Sure that’s a factor since they can be stretched thin. But I think it’s the amount of content they’re producing that’s the big problem. They’re still on that 18-22 episodes a season model while the whole tv model is changing. Filling those kinds of orders leads to a lot of filler and not a lot of good ideas. I think black lighting season one was better with 13 episodes. legends also has shorter seasons and I think it’s one of the better shows. Another issue with the same people working on all these shows is they share the same formulas. This season had at least 3 of the Arrowverse shows do the same twist with the big bad guy. Then again the MCU also has that problem. Thor, Black Panther, and even Aquaman all had very similar setups with the whole family feud for the throne. There was also the six Marvel Netflix shows which ended up with fewer than episodes but a couple of those were duds too so there’s also the question of decision making at the top. I think the same formula is fine- but it's the depth, difference of character, and execution that makes it a new experience. As an example, I can experience both Spiderman 2 & Superman 2 just fine as completely different films, despite similar plot points. For me, it's a natural second step in the evolution of any superhero character who takes on the role of 'superpoliceman' so to speak. Once the novelty dies and the hard toll on life sets in--- the committment gets challenged. It's not repetitive to me if it's done in a way that feels specifically truthful to each character. |
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Post by Metallo on May 21, 2019 20:00:11 GMT -5
I think a formula can be ok if you spread it out. Even better if you make it a little different each time or add to it. Superman II and Spider-Man 2 are over twenty years apart so it came off fresher. With the Arrowverse they sometimes use the same formula at the same time across all their shows. That can get repetitive in way too small a window of time and doesn’t feel so fresh when you’ve seen it three nights in a row.
Even Marvel Studios has gotten wise to spreading things out and putting their own spin on it. Feige takes ideas from everything from Star Trek to Star Wars but it’s been years and they put their spin on it. I think that’s one reason they’re so successful. Everyone else seemed to be rehashing stuff (namely Marvel Studios stuff) right after someone else did. It’s why the DCEU feels so been there done that. It was obvious they were simply trying to create their own MCU and Avengers instead of innovating.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 22, 2019 23:47:29 GMT -5
I think a formula can be ok if you spread it out. Even better if you make it a little different each time or add to it. Superman II and Spider-Man 2 are over twenty years apart so it came off fresher. With the Arrowverse they sometimes use the same formula at the same time across all their shows. That can get repetitive in way too small a window of time and doesn’t feel so fresh when you’ve seen it three nights in a row. Even Marvel Studios has gotten wise to spreading things out and putting their own spin on it. Feige takes ideas from everything from Star Trek to Star Wars but it’s been years and they put their spin on it. I think that’s one reason they’re so successful. Everyone else seemed to be rehashing stuff (namely Marvel Studios stuff) right after someone else did. It’s why the DCEU feels so been there done that. It was obvious they were simply trying to create their own MCU and Avengers instead of innovating. Excellent point. If you see something the next day with exactly the same formula- hard for it not to be annoying. I hate to harp on Snyder ruining the core of the DCEU- but I guess he really did in ways if WB/DC put all their eggs in the MOS basket. |
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Post by Metallo on May 23, 2019 7:50:38 GMT -5
Yeah that’s what I mean. When you’re doing the same thing over and over across multiple projects in a short amount of time people can get tired of it. That’s a big problem in Hollywood now. I think when people saw dark universe and saw that they were expected to give it a chance the way they did Marvel they groaned and rolled their eyes.
As for Snyder he was never the guy for the job they gave him. The dceu needed a producer wrangling him and everyone else involved. You can’t have a director laying down the rules that other directors have to follow in something that’s not even a sequel. Snyder was setting the course for characters he wouldn’t even work with. It’s not surprising James Wan threw a lot of Snyder’s stuff out and did his own thing. Why shouldn’t Wan have the freedom Snyder had especially since he has a better track record of success? The Snyderverse was never going to last.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 24, 2019 14:25:52 GMT -5
Yeah that’s what I mean. When you’re doing the same thing over and over across multiple projects in a short amount of time people can get tired of it. That’s a big problem in Hollywood now. I think when people saw dark universe and saw that they were expected to give it a chance the way they did Marvel they groaned and rolled their eyes. As for Snyder he was never the guy for the job they gave him. The dceu needed a producer wrangling him and everyone else involved. You can’t have a director laying down the rules that other directors have to follow in something that’s not even a sequel. Snyder was setting the course for characters he wouldn’t even work with. It’s. Or surprising James Wan threw a lot of Snyder’s stuff out and did his own thing. Why shouldn’t Wan have the freedom Snyder had especially since he has a better track record of success. The Snyderverse was never going to last. I wonder if WB just thought that Nolan as producer for MOS was the backup for quality control.... but after TDKR, even if Nolan was hands-on as a producer for MOS, I'd be worried.... |
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Post by Metallo on May 24, 2019 17:01:06 GMT -5
I think it was partly that. He backed up Goyer when they pitched it. WB probably assumed his involvement meant another masterpiece. More than anything they just wanted his name. Much like Spielbergs name has been on movies he had very little to do with as a way to get audiences excited WB wanted Nolan’s name as a draw. The truth was at a certain point Nolan was deep in working on TDKRises so by that point it was Snyder’s movie.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 24, 2019 23:50:54 GMT -5
I think it was partly that. He backed up Goyer when they pitched it. WB probably assumed his involvement meant another masterpiece. More than anything they just wanted his name. Much like Spielbergs name has been on movies he had very little to do with as a way to get audiences excited WB wanted Nolan’s name as a draw. The truth was at a certain point Nolan was deep in working on TDKRises so by that point it was Snyder’s movie. TDKR I know some don't think is that bad, but I thought it was dreadful & closed the door on a number of great Bale Batman movies that could have been done, since they got the foundation down SO well. MOS- I originally said that a fan cut might save it, but the amount of far better superhero films that have come after make me feel like it's not even worth it. |
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Post by Metallo on May 25, 2019 9:59:39 GMT -5
MOS is conceptually flawed down to its core. You’d have to do a ton of fan cutting to make it better. The killing Zod issue alone is a huge problem as far as how it’s handled. Cavill and Adams have zero chemistry.
As for TDKRISES I don’t hate it. Actually like it. But it’s not nearly as good as the Nolanites claim. Certainly isn’t a masterpiece. It’s too bloated and not as tight with its storytelling as Batman Begins or TDK. It’s also not as original and feels more derivative. After seeing Endgame and Logan it feels like even more of a copout not to kill Batman. Those movies were far ballsier in that respect.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 26, 2019 21:02:45 GMT -5
MOS is conceptually flawed down to its core. You’d have to do a ton of fan cutting to make it better. The killing Zod issue alone is a huge problem as far as how it’s handled. Cavill and Adams have zero chemistry. As for TDKRISES I don’t hate it. Actually like it. But it’s not nearly as good as the Nolanites claim. Certainly isn’t a masterpiece. It’s too bloated and not as tight with its storytelling as Batman Begins or TDK. It’s also not as original and feels more derivative. After seeing Endgame and Logan it feels like even more of a copout not to kill Batman. Those movies were far ballsier in that respect. Well, I'm talking about a 15 minute great fan cut...  If TDKR had killed off Batman like Fox killed off Logan- then a lot more makes sense narratively and there'd be far more juice to the Robin- transforming into Batman parts. But- as is, it feels like Spiderman 3--- only a lot lot worse. I REALLY hate how Nolan took the realism too far in some areas (I didn't need to see that his body was so destroyed before Bane)- and not enough in others (Catwoman fighting on the same level as world-trained Batman? WTF?).... Everything was SO PERFECT in TDK imo.... *sigh*.... |
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Post by atp on May 26, 2019 22:17:02 GMT -5
MOS is conceptually flawed down to its core. You’d have to do a ton of fan cutting to make it better. The killing Zod issue alone is a huge problem as far as how it’s handled. Cavill and Adams have zero chemistry. As for TDKRISES I don’t hate it. Actually like it. But it’s not nearly as good as the Nolanites claim. Certainly isn’t a masterpiece. It’s too bloated and not as tight with its storytelling as Batman Begins or TDK. It’s also not as original and feels more derivative. After seeing Endgame and Logan it feels like even more of a copout not to kill Batman. Those movies were far ballsier in that respect. MOS cannot be saved. No matter how much you edit, it is still an ugly, angry and bitter film. When I think of it now, the first thing that comes to mind is how ugly and grey it is. Cloudy,grim, metallic and concrete. It's like Soviet architecture superimposed on Superman. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 27, 2019 4:04:57 GMT -5
MOS is conceptually flawed down to its core. You’d have to do a ton of fan cutting to make it better. The killing Zod issue alone is a huge problem as far as how it’s handled. Cavill and Adams have zero chemistry. As for TDKRISES I don’t hate it. Actually like it. But it’s not nearly as good as the Nolanites claim. Certainly isn’t a masterpiece. It’s too bloated and not as tight with its storytelling as Batman Begins or TDK. It’s also not as original and feels more derivative. After seeing Endgame and Logan it feels like even more of a copout not to kill Batman. Those movies were far ballsier in that respect. MOS cannot be saved. No matter how much you edit, it is still an ugly, angry and bitter film. When I think of it now, the first thing that comes to mind is how ugly and grey it is. Cloudy,grim, metallic and concrete. It's like Soviet architecture superimposed on Superman. I think if you hack out enough of MOS, or blend it with BvS that together one could reconstruct something worth watching.... or at least improve the story significantly. |
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Post by Metallo on May 27, 2019 15:32:18 GMT -5
To me BvS is WORSE than MOS so I have my doubts if would help. MOS at least gave Superman more of a character. I know it’s been tried by editing Superman III and IV together into one improved movie but I think even those movies got certain things right that Snyder botched. MOS is conceptually flawed down to its core. You’d have to do a ton of fan cutting to make it better. The killing Zod issue alone is a huge problem as far as how it’s handled. Cavill and Adams have zero chemistry. As for TDKRISES I don’t hate it. Actually like it. But it’s not nearly as good as the Nolanites claim. Certainly isn’t a masterpiece. It’s too bloated and not as tight with its storytelling as Batman Begins or TDK. It’s also not as original and feels more derivative. After seeing Endgame and Logan it feels like even more of a copout not to kill Batman. Those movies were far ballsier in that respect. MOS cannot be saved. No matter how much you edit, it is still an ugly, angry and bitter film. When I think of it now, the first thing that comes to mind is how ugly and grey it is. Cloudy,grim, metallic and concrete. It's like Soviet architecture superimposed on Superman. Funny you say that since Cavill says Red Son, the story of the Soviet Superman, was his inspiration for his performance. I think it influenced several involved with the film. MOS needs more than a fan edit to make it great. I suppose it could be made better but it’s like polishing a turd IMO. There have been a lot of color correction videos but it’s not just the visuals that are the problem. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 27, 2019 18:08:10 GMT -5
To me BvS is WORSE than MOS so I have my doubts if would help. MOS at least gave Superman more of a character. I know it’s been tried by editing Superman III and IV together into one improved movie but I think even those movies got certain things right that Snyder botched. MOS cannot be saved. No matter how much you edit, it is still an ugly, angry and bitter film. When I think of it now, the first thing that comes to mind is how ugly and grey it is. Cloudy,grim, metallic and concrete. It's like Soviet architecture superimposed on Superman. Funny you say that since Cavill says Red Son, the story of the Soviet Superman, was his inspiration for his performance. I think it influenced several involved with the film. MOS needs more than a fan edit to make it great. I suppose it could be made better but it’s like polishing a turd IMO. There have been a lot of color correction videos but it’s not just the visuals that are the problem. Bizzarely, I thought it played (generally) better than MOS despite its flaws... |
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Post by Metallo on May 27, 2019 23:25:00 GMT -5
I’m not a big fan of either (shocking I know) but MOS felt like a more competent movie where Snyder restrained himself from
Being his usual self. I can see how BvS would be more appealing though. More fun more action and a more original story. MOS Was stuff we’d seen before. I think MOS was Snyder’s most ambitious film in terms of deeper meaning but BvS was the most
Anticipated. Arguably more than justice league before that fell apart.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 30, 2019 3:22:22 GMT -5
I’m not a big fan of either (shocking I know) but MOS felt like a more competent movie where Snyder restrained himself from Being his usual self. I can see how BvS would be more appealing though. More fun more action and a more original story. MOS Was stuff we’d seen before. I think MOS was Snyder’s most ambitious film in terms of deeper meaning but BvS was the most Anticipated. Arguably more than justice league before that fell apart. There were some misguided bits in BvS but I thought nowhere near as bad as MOS's... while BvS was not great, at least we didn't have what felt like endless mayhem and casualties that nobody cared about in MOS... While I'm not crazy about Batfleck, with Cavill's Superman (under Snyder) lacking any real personality, at least we have Affleck's Batman to hold onto as a guide for the film despite the infamous 'Martha- why did you say that name?' nonsense. In any case- it is sad that the DCEU fell apart (or at the very least extremely messed up) all from poor choices of one director. But then again.... if WB/DC would have stuck with Singer and Routh--- and if we got the sequel on SR & had things grow from there- how awesome would it have been to have had the Donner Superman and the Nolan Batman be the foundation for the DCEU instead? I don't know if Nolan would have played ball at all, given his feeling that his Batman lives in a vacuum, but... maybe Singer could have persuaded him to change his mind? Hard to say... |
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Post by Metallo on May 30, 2019 16:12:31 GMT -5
I thought Snyder’s BVS solution to the mass Destruction complaints in MOS was ridiculous. You could feel him grudgingly acknowledging it and probably rolling his eyes when he made the changes for BVS. That or he didn’t get why people complained in the first place since he basically avoided the entire situation. My issue in MOS was never the death and destruction but how it was handled. BvS made a completely different mistake by coming up with a somewhat hard to believe solution. Not impossible but I thought it was the wrong fix.
Affleck was imo also the best thing in BVS despite some stupid writing. I still think he overcame it to be pretty compelling in most of his scenes.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 31, 2019 0:57:18 GMT -5
I thought Snyder’s BVS solution to the mass Destruction complaints in MOS was ridiculous. You could feel him grudgingly acknowledging it and probably rolling his eyes when he made the changes for BVS. That or he didn’t get why people complained in the first place since he basically avoided the entire situation. My issue in MOS was never the death and destruction but how it was handled. BvS made a completely different mistake by coming up with a somewhat hard to believe solution. Not impossible but I thought it was the wrong fix. Affleck was imo also the best thing in BVS despite some stupid writing. I still think he overcame it to be pretty compelling in most of his scenes. I was hoping that the extended cut would be an improvement, but, not really... Affleck and the introduction to Wonder Woman I agree are the best things in BvS. I don't blame Cavill as he's following what's written- plus, I WAYYY prefer him to the guy playing Superman on the Supergirl tv show. |
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Post by Metallo on Jun 10, 2019 20:46:19 GMT -5
I definitely prefer Hoechlin to Cavill. At least he has a personality. It’s the reason he’s still in the role on tv while WB was perfectly ok letting Cavill walk out the door. Cavill has all the charisma of wet toilet paper. Even Whedon only got so much out of him so it’s hard to totally blame the writing for Cavill's lack of screen presence and personality. Sometimes an actor just doesn’t have it. There’s a lot of guys in Hollywood like that right now. Cavill had the looks but good looking dudes are a dime a dozen in LA. If that’s all he brings no wonder WB saw him as easily replaceable.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2019 14:47:14 GMT -5
I definitely prefer Hoechlin to Cavill. At least he has a personality. It’s the reason he’s still in the role on tv while WB was perfectly ok letting Cavill walk out the door. Cavill has all the charisma of wet toilet paper. Even Whedon only got so much out of him so it’s hard to totally blame the writing for Cavill's lack of screen presence and personality. Sometimes an actor just doesn’t have it. There’s a lot of guys in Hollywood like that right now. Cavill had the looks but good looking dudes are a dime a dozen in LA. If that’s all he brings no wonder WB saw him as easily replaceable. First choice would have been Routh. The more he is on "Legends of Tomorrow", the more I realize that if the Superman movies let him do more bits with Clark Kent, his comic timing would have shown, as well as more charm. I still think Cavill has the looks and presence that Tchetochlin (sp?) doesn't have. I hate the casting for Lois Lane, too.... same reason. On the flip side, will be interesting to see who they go to next.... hopefully an unknown. |
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Post by Metallo on Jun 11, 2019 17:34:48 GMT -5
Cavill has physical presence but I never felt he had screen presence. He’s a dud, a blank, IMO. He’d be a great Superman mannequin I don’t rank Hoechlin as a top Superman but he’s got the right screen presence he’s just not the most physically imposing guy but then Cain didn’t have the perfect looks either. Looks are important but if you can’t convey a likeability in the role you’re screwed and it seems as though Cavill...is. Elizabeth Tulloch is to me the best Lois Lane since Erica Durance. Maybe the best since Teri Hatcher. It’s clear they were going for a Margot Kidder vibe when they cast her. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2019 0:57:48 GMT -5
Cavill has physical presence but I never felt he had screen presence. He’s a dud, a blank, IMO. He’d be a great Superman mannequin I don’t rank Hoechlin as a top Superman but he’s got the right screen presence he’s just not the most physically imposing guy but then Cain didn’t have the perfect looks either. Looks are important but if you can’t convey a likeability in the role you’re screwed and it seems as though Cavill...is. Elizabeth Tulloch is to me the best Lois Lane since Erica Durance. Maybe the best since Teri Hatcher. It’s clear they were going for a Margot Kidder vibe when they cast her. Women think Hoechlin is a good looking dude, but he never looked right to me--- though, yeah, it really is a subjective thing. Sam with Elizabeth Tulloch....I don't think they're in the same league as Kidder, Hatcher, Neill, etc.. Cain I think carved a special niche right off the bat with Teri Hatcher as not necessarily 'canon' Superman, but one that had a ton of heart and charm to it, imo. As an aside, I really despise those cape clasps on Hoechlin's Superman costume.... I thought I'd get used to it, but.... |
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Post by Metallo on Jun 12, 2019 12:39:45 GMT -5
Well good looking and Superman looking aren’t always synonymous. Different Women have a different type and I can see why they find Hoechlin attractive especially with today’s tastes in looks. They thought Cain was attractive too (it’s one reason he got the job) but he doesn’t look like the traditional Superman either.
Cain lacked the Superman presence but the things that got him over were a likable humanized Clark as well as his great chemistry with Teri Hatcher. Hatcher to me had Lois’s feistiness but never really had her toughness the way Kidder or Coates did. Kidder was, like Reeve, the total package.
Tulloch isn’t the best actress but then she didn’t have a lot of time to get ready for this or screen time to get comfortable in the role. I think like Hoechlin what she does have is the right personality. Tonally the Arrowverse “gets it” and it’s why they’ve had more consistent success than the DCEU. I think Adams and Bosworth are both better actresses than Tulloch but they’re still all wrong for the role.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2019 15:27:59 GMT -5
Well good looking and Superman looking aren’t always synonymous. Different Women have a different type and I can see why they find Hoechlin attractive especially with today’s tastes in looks. They thought Cain was attractive too (it’s one reason he got the job) but he doesn’t look like the traditional Superman either. Cain lacked the Superman presence but the things that got him over were a likable humanized Clark as well as his great chemistry with Teri Hatcher. Hatcher to me had Lois’s feistiness but never really had her toughness the way Kidder or Coates did. Kidder was, like Reeve, the total package. Tulloch isn’t the best actress but then she didn’t have a lot of time to get ready for this or screen time to get comfortable in the role. I think like Hoechlin what she does have is the right personality. Tonally the Arrowverse “gets it” and it’s why they’ve had more consistent success than the DCEU. I think Adams and Bosworth are both better actresses than Tulloch but they’re still all wrong for the role. Cain and Hatcher and the overall package I thought really worked in the first season.... not to replace my love for the Reeve/Donner Superman entries- but if I think of it in terms of restaurants or food- Reeve/Donner's Superman is like going to an expensive fantastic tasting restaurant that you think about days later after the meal. L&C (at least the first season) is like a small hole-in-the wall diner that tastes good and earns its spot on the block, but it's not on the same scale as the giant restaurant. Cain and Hatcher & Reeve and KIdder (to me) feels so far ahead of Hoechlin & Tulloch that it's hard to shake. Erica Durance I think would have been on the same level as Kidder. Routh I thought did a great Clark, but I think would have grown better into Superman & Bosworth would be above Tulloch and Adams by a long shot, but below the other Loises. In any case, those in charge never ask me. (The Fools!) |
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Post by Metallo on Jun 12, 2019 19:34:51 GMT -5
Durance always had that sort of low budget b movie syfy original movie feel to me. Most of the other Lois’s had more class to them. Never saw what was so great about her. She was ok but she and all the other younger actors weren’t on Rosenbaum's level. Maybe it was all the plastic surgery. I think Cain and Hatcher had the better chemistry but Hoechlin and Tulloch weren’t bad together and I thought they were better in their individual roles. Hoechlin really rose to the occasion in Elseworlds. Cain always looked uncomfortable in the suit but but at least he didn’t have a problem wearing it (unlike some people).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 13, 2019 0:30:57 GMT -5
Durance always had that sort of low budget b movie syfy original movie feel to me. Most of the other Lois’s had more class to them. Never saw what was so great about her. She was ok but she and all the other younger actors weren’t on Rosenbaum's level. Maybe it was all the plastic surgery. I think Cain and Hatcher had the better chemistry but Hoechlin and Tulloch weren’t bad together and I thought they were better in their individual roles. Hoechlin really rose to the occasion in Elseworlds. Cain always looked uncomfortable in the suit but but at least he didn’t have a problem wearing it (unlike some people). I saw Durance in person at Comic Con years ago. She and Justin Hartley were pretty great at the panel. I think she has a stronger resemblance towards Kidder and Hatcher than any of the other Lois's and to me when she played Lois, she seemed very strong and straightforward and charming all at the same time- which is what I like to see in Lois. Adams was wayyy too soft-spoken, Bosworth's felt 'off' from what I expected (I didn't have a problem with age as I knew a few moms that were older but looked young). Still not feeling strong on Hoechli and Tulloch, but I just think previous actors (including Cain and Welling ) felt closer to the mark of what I envision when I 'see' Superman and Lois... but, I guess it's natural that we're all going to have our favorites. |
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