Some thoughts after a recent look at some Superman films

[Metallo]

I really don’t like the title card for Lester’s Superman II. Even the airplane sound effect is kinda lame. Compared to the epic titles of STM SII’s main titles come off as more kiddie comic booky which I guess was the point. Lester saw his movies as kids movies and the more pop art stereotypical comic book style as a result. It’s why I really enjoyed the new titles for the Donner cut.

I never noticed the framed photos of Superman in Lois’s office in Superman II. Really shows how into Superman she is. There’s so much new stuff I’m still picking up in these movies even now.

Recently rewatched the making of Superman Returns and noticed even more of the dates on the newspapers in the opening titles. Superman made his debut in 1996 and put Luthor away in 1997. Some stuff doesn’t make sense unless the 1997 capture of Luthor was for the Superman II story instead of when he caught him at the end of the STM story. Superman left in 2000. Means he was Superman for four years before he left earth and made his debut ten years ago. Gives Rouths Superman a pretty substantial superhero career before he left instead of him being a newbie which makes sense. But Routh and Bosworth already look too young for the roles so that timeline makes them look even more age inappropriate.

Kate Bosworth and Parker Posey should have switched roles. Posey was older than Routh but who cares. Someone her age would have made more sense with this story plus she looked more in the Kidder mold than Bosworth. Tulloch and Adams are/were both much older than their respective Supermen too.

Justice Leagues rooftop robbery scene reminds me a lot of Superman Returns rooftop robbery scene. The looks a even somewhat similar.

James Karen would have been a good Jonathan Kent if SR had been a reboot instead of based on the Donners films.

The STM design of the fortress of solitude is so iconic that it has become THE default look in the minds of most of the public. It’s even crossed over into the comics and in animation. In the recent Death of Superman animated movie it’s the STM design. With the exception of Snyder’s films I think every live action version of the fortress since has been based on the STM version. John Barry really was a genius.

I love Superman Returns modern take on the STM FOS design. Also loved how they decided to portray the Jor-El hologram as within the crystals.

Routh looked so much better as Superman in the behind the scenes footage. The colors of the suit were fine but the filters and color correction ruined it. By the end of filming Routh was really looking the part. It really is a shame he didn’t get a second try.

The Supergirl tv show super costumes are not only influenced by Cavill’s suits but Rouths too. Especially the capes.

[crazy_asian_man]

Nov 28, 2018 21:45:45 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I really don’t like the title card for Lester’s Superman II. Even the airplane sound effect is kinda lame. Compared to the epic titles of STM SII’s main titles come off as more kiddie comic booky which I guess was the point. Lester saw his movies as kids movies and the more pop art stereotypical comic book style as a result. It’s why I really enjoyed the new titles for the Donner cut.

I never noticed the framed photos of Superman in Lois’s office in Superman II. Really shows how into Superman she is. There’s so much new stuff I’m still picking up in these movies even now.

Recently rewatched the making of Superman Returns and noticed even more of the dates on the newspapers in the opening titles. Superman made his debut in 1996 and put Luthor away in 1997. Some stuff doesn’t make sense unless the 1997 capture of Luthor was for the Superman II story instead of when he caught him at the end of the STM story. Superman left in 2000. Means he was Superman for four years before he left earth and made his debut ten years ago. Gives Rouths Superman a pretty substantial superhero career before he left instead of him being a newbie which makes sense. But Routh and Bosworth already look too young for the roles so that timeline makes them look even more age inappropriate.

Kate Bosworth and Parker Posey should have switched roles. Posey was older than Routh but who cares. Someone her age would have made more sense with this story plus she looked more in the Kidder mold than Bosworth. Tulloch and Adams are/were both much older than their respective Supermen too.

Justice Leagues rooftop robbery scene reminds me a lot of Superman Returns rooftop robbery scene. The looks a even somewhat similar.

James Karen would have been a good Jonathan Kent if SR had been a reboot instead of based on the Donners films.

The STM design of the fortress of solitude is so iconic that it has become THE default look in the minds of most of the public. It’s even crossed over into the comics and in animation. In the recent Death of Superman animated movie it’s the STM design. With the exception of Snyder’s films I think every live action version of the fortress since has been based on the STM version. John Barry really was a genius.

I love Superman Returns modern take on the STM FOS design. Also loved how they decided to portray the Jor-El hologram as within the crystals.

Routh looked so much better as Superman in the behind the scenes footage. The colors of the suit were fine but the filters and color correction ruined it. By the end of filming Routh was really looking the part. It really is a shame he didn’t get a second try.

The Supergirl tv show super costumes are not only influenced by Cavill’s suits but Rouths too. Especially the capes.

Lester is/was capable of making a more serious Superman II to fold into Donner's footage if he wanted to,but, yeah, it really continues to feel like he saw being a parasite onto Donner's SII as his way back into Hollywood by distorting it into HIS 'vision'.

The multiple openings that SR had originaly make me dizzy. We got to see snippets here and there, but I wish they had been presented in full in the deleted scenes section of the box set.

I know folks that were older than Bosworth that had kids, that still looked incredibly young in real life, so I never had that problem with them looking a little younger for the story that SR told... plus, I do agree with Singer's idea tat the time: that in thinking of sequels, that they did want to cast with that thought in mind, too. I thought Bosworth acted fine, but her take on it wasn't quite in line with the spirit of Kidder or Hatcher-- I think Erica Durance would have been a closer fit, but I was MUCH more fine with Bosworth as Lois than Amy Adams, who was (imo) by far the most miscast Lois.

It's a pity that Snyder/Goyer had to feel like they had to wipe away everything from the Donner era. They could have had an art design that incorporated the crystals as one part of Krypton, with different regions and looks, (much like old Silver Age Superman comics had different imaginative looks to the world of Krypton)- but in the end, it's all a forgettable mush. A long time ago, I thoguht a "Krypton" tv show would be fantastic, but to hear that what came out is so mediocre (and less) i think I'd rather they never did it at all.

I agree that the color correction in SR is TERRIBLE. If it aint broke, don't fix it!!!! Oh well...

[Kamdan]

Amy Adams, who was (imo) by far the most miscast Lois.

The reason Adams looks bad in the three films she’s appeared as Lois Lane in is because her character doesn’t fit into the films. Her sole purpose in the movies is to stand around and provide expository dialogue to give or be given to. The romantic angle was carefully observed in the Donner films but was treated as an obligation for the new films. I feel so bad for Adams because when she was first cast, you could tell she was excited over the prospect of doing something like the first Superman film and she ends up having to kiss Superman amongst 9/11 imagery. Definitely a stark contrast.

[crazy_asian_man]

Nov 29, 2018 3:06:14 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Amy Adams, who was (imo) by far the most miscast Lois.

The reason Adams looks bad in the three films she’s appeared as Lois Lane in is because her character doesn’t fit into the films. Her sole purpose in the movies is to stand around and provide expository dialogue to give or be given to. The romantic angle was carefully observed in the Donner films but was treated as an obligation for the new films. I feel so bad for Adams because when she was first cast, you could tell she was excited over the prospect of doing something like the first Superman film and she ends up having to kiss Superman amongst 9/11 imagery. Definitely a stark contrast.

Some folks I know really liked Adams (or at least had no problem with her) in MOS.... and I like her in different movies, but her film presence seems way off the tone of Noel Neil or Kidder. I groaned when she had her bit in Justice League when she talked about how she wasn't strong enough to keep going in her job, because I felt like she didn't seem strong enough or obsessive enough to be oblivious to other people for a story- she just seemed a little too introverted or nice to be Lois.... and that could be projection, but that was the feeling I got.

[Metallo]

I agree, CAM. She’s a great actress but that kind of personality isn’t second nature to her. It’s easier when a women already has that kind of swagger like Kidder did. Didn’t she walk into her audition in cowboy boots? Seems like something Lois Lane would do. Talent is one thing but the right person is the right person. All the talent in the world won’t always fit a square peg into a round hole. Chemistry is also a real thing when they cast these roles.

Nov 29, 2018 3:06:14 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Amy Adams, who was (imo) by far the most miscast Lois.

The reason Adams looks bad in the three films she’s appeared as Lois Lane in is because her character doesn’t fit into the films. Her sole purpose in the movies is to stand around and provide expository dialogue to give or be given to. The romantic angle was carefully observed in the Donner films but was treated as an obligation for the new films. I feel so bad for Adams because when she was first cast, you could tell she was excited over the prospect of doing something like the first Superman film and she ends up having to kiss Superman amongst 9/11 imagery. Definitely a stark contrast.

The material (or lack thereof) did her no favors and with the right push she’s shown she can have a tough side (The Fighter) but her natural personality is a poor fit for Lois. Even when she spouted off that awful d!ck measuring line in MOS it didn’t ring true to me. Kidder naturally had a more ballsy take no crap speak her mind personality. It’s why she’s arguably the best Lois. Carrie Fisher was the same way and that’s why she came off so naturally as a story willed character like Leia. It was easy for her to slip into that role because it wasn’t so far removed from the real her.

Good Casting and miscasting can definitely be factors.

[Metallo]

Nov 29, 2018 2:27:19 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Nov 28, 2018 21:45:45 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I really don’t like the title card for Lester’s Superman II. Even the airplane sound effect is kinda lame. Compared to the epic titles of STM SII’s main titles come off as more kiddie comic booky which I guess was the point. Lester saw his movies as kids movies and the more pop art stereotypical comic book style as a result. It’s why I really enjoyed the new titles for the Donner cut.

I never noticed the framed photos of Superman in Lois’s office in Superman II. Really shows how into Superman she is. There’s so much new stuff I’m still picking up in these movies even now.

Recently rewatched the making of Superman Returns and noticed even more of the dates on the newspapers in the opening titles. Superman made his debut in 1996 and put Luthor away in 1997. Some stuff doesn’t make sense unless the 1997 capture of Luthor was for the Superman II story instead of when he caught him at the end of the STM story. Superman left in 2000. Means he was Superman for four years before he left earth and made his debut ten years ago. Gives Rouths Superman a pretty substantial superhero career before he left instead of him being a newbie which makes sense. But Routh and Bosworth already look too young for the roles so that timeline makes them look even more age inappropriate.

Kate Bosworth and Parker Posey should have switched roles. Posey was older than Routh but who cares. Someone her age would have made more sense with this story plus she looked more in the Kidder mold than Bosworth. Tulloch and Adams are/were both much older than their respective Supermen too.

Justice Leagues rooftop robbery scene reminds me a lot of Superman Returns rooftop robbery scene. The looks a even somewhat similar.

James Karen would have been a good Jonathan Kent if SR had been a reboot instead of based on the Donners films.

The STM design of the fortress of solitude is so iconic that it has become THE default look in the minds of most of the public. It’s even crossed over into the comics and in animation. In the recent Death of Superman animated movie it’s the STM design. With the exception of Snyder’s films I think every live action version of the fortress since has been based on the STM version. John Barry really was a genius.

I love Superman Returns modern take on the STM FOS design. Also loved how they decided to portray the Jor-El hologram as within the crystals.

Routh looked so much better as Superman in the behind the scenes footage. The colors of the suit were fine but the filters and color correction ruined it. By the end of filming Routh was really looking the part. It really is a shame he didn’t get a second try.

The Supergirl tv show super costumes are not only influenced by Cavill’s suits but Rouths too. Especially the capes.

Lester is/was capable of making a more serious Superman II to fold into Donner's footage if he wanted to,but, yeah, it really continues to feel like he saw being a parasite onto Donner's SII as his way back into Hollywood by distorting it into HIS 'vision'.

The multiple openings that SR had originaly make me dizzy. We got to see snippets here and there, but I wish they had been presented in full in the deleted scenes section of the box set.

I know folks that were older than Bosworth that had kids, that still looked incredibly young in real life, so I never had that problem with them looking a little younger for the story that SR told... plus, I do agree with Singer's idea tat the time: that in thinking of sequels, that they did want to cast with that thought in mind, too. I thought Bosworth acted fine, but her take on it wasn't quite in line with the spirit of Kidder or Hatcher-- I think Erica Durance would have been a closer fit, but I was MUCH more fine with Bosworth as Lois than Amy Adams, who was (imo) by far the most miscast Lois.

It's a pity that Snyder/Goyer had to feel like they had to wipe away everything from the Donner era. They could have had an art design that incorporated the crystals as one part of Krypton, with different regions and looks, (much like old Silver Age Superman comics had different imaginative looks to the world of Krypton)- but in the end, it's all a forgettable mush. A long time ago, I thoguht a "Krypton" tv show would be fantastic, but to hear that what came out is so mediocre (and less) i think I'd rather they never did it at all.

I agree that the color correction in SR is TERRIBLE. If it aint broke, don't fix it!!!! Oh well...

I agree Lester could’ve made a more serious Superman films but his perception of the material colored his view on how to make the film. I think he saw it as poppy somewhat camp kid friendly stuff not to be taken too seriously. It shouldn’t be too serious but I think he took the tongue in cheekness too far.

With Bosworth it wasn’t just about looking her age but playing her age. She wasn’t mature enough to play that age because she hadn’t lived if herself yet. I bet if she got a second shot with the same character now she’d be much better. She just came off as very young and not so worldly in SR when those scenes were shooting for something else. It’s something that’s not easy to teach. Some can pull it off. Reeve was cast young but he came off as older and with a sense of maturity that Bosworth didn’t really accomplish.

MOS’s production design didn’t pop because it was all very been there done that. Patrick Tatopoulos is an ok designer but I’ve never found him his work to be groundbreaking it unique. It’s all got that same dark medieval look. His Godzilla was awful. He seemed to go for something more based in nature but that looked ridiculous cinematically speaking. His Krypton looked like his Underworld. It wasn’t really fresh or new the way Barry’s was or the way Fursts Gotham was. That was world building with ideas I’d never seen before.

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 1, 2018 13:46:49 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Nov 29, 2018 2:27:19 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Lester is/was capable of making a more serious Superman II to fold into Donner's footage if he wanted to,but, yeah, it really continues to feel like he saw being a parasite onto Donner's SII as his way back into Hollywood by distorting it into HIS 'vision'.

The multiple openings that SR had originaly make me dizzy. We got to see snippets here and there, but I wish they had been presented in full in the deleted scenes section of the box set.

I know folks that were older than Bosworth that had kids, that still looked incredibly young in real life, so I never had that problem with them looking a little younger for the story that SR told... plus, I do agree with Singer's idea tat the time: that in thinking of sequels, that they did want to cast with that thought in mind, too. I thought Bosworth acted fine, but her take on it wasn't quite in line with the spirit of Kidder or Hatcher-- I think Erica Durance would have been a closer fit, but I was MUCH more fine with Bosworth as Lois than Amy Adams, who was (imo) by far the most miscast Lois.

It's a pity that Snyder/Goyer had to feel like they had to wipe away everything from the Donner era. They could have had an art design that incorporated the crystals as one part of Krypton, with different regions and looks, (much like old Silver Age Superman comics had different imaginative looks to the world of Krypton)- but in the end, it's all a forgettable mush. A long time ago, I thoguht a "Krypton" tv show would be fantastic, but to hear that what came out is so mediocre (and less) i think I'd rather they never did it at all.

I agree that the color correction in SR is TERRIBLE. If it aint broke, don't fix it!!!! Oh well...

I agree Lester could’ve made a more serious Superman films but his perception of the material colored his view on how to make the film. I think he saw it as poppy somewhat camp kid friendly stuff not to be taken too seriously. It shouldn’t be too serious but I think he took the tongue in cheekness too far.

With Bosworth it wasn’t just about looking her age but playing her age. She wasn’t mature enough to play that age because she hadn’t lived if herself yet. I bet if she got a second shot with the same character now she’d be much better. She just came off as very young and not so worldly in SR when those scenes were shooting for something else. It’s something that’s not easy to teach. Some can pull it off. Reeve was cast young but he came off as older and with a sense of maturity that Bosworth didn’t really accomplish.

MOS’s production design didn’t pop because it was all very been there done that. Patrick Tatopoulos is an ok designer but I’ve never found him his work to be groundbreaking it unique. It’s all got that same dark medieval look. His Godzilla was awful. He seemed to go for something more based in nature but that looked ridiculous cinematically speaking. His Krypton looked like his Underworld. It wasn’t really fresh or new the way Barry’s was or the way Fursts Gotham was. That was world building with ideas I’d never seen before.

I think Lester's SII was - in a number of ways - WAY more offensive than even Ratner's X3.... at least X3 tried to emulate Singer's style for most of it, despite some incredibly lame story/character choices. At least Ratner left a way for Xavier to come back for Xmen: DOFP, rumoredly Xavier was going to be 'dead dead dead' at the end of X3 under the original director's script. With the giant success (far outshining anything Lester had done box-office wise at that point) one would think that Lester would acknowledge Donner's achievement and try to respect finishing it up the way the original artist intended as much as possible. In interviews and commentary, Ratner sounded like he was intending to do that in following Singer- even if execution wise, there was a number of big things that made my head groan.

I can get your issue with Bosworth- but -honestly, I felt it worked out ok. Another actress might have been stronger, but I'm glad I was able to go with it.

Good point with Barry's Krypton and Furst's Gotham. Those designs were SO strong that it's hard to think of another fully-realized fictional environment (outside of the original Star Wars movies perhaps) that leave such a deep imprint with design.