Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 23, 2018 13:08:13 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 23, 2018 16:51:39 GMT -5
I did see this. I do wonder, though..... who would have been likely candidates for Donner and/or Mank to have cast at the time? |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 23, 2018 18:57:28 GMT -5
Guess it depends on what they were going for. Ideally I’d want the 80s revamp of brainiac but that would have been pretty hard back then. I’m gusssing we would have gotten more of a normal guy. Maaaaaybe with green skin? Hard to imagine what he would have looked like. Those movies never did that kind of make up heavy character. Hopefully they wouldn’t have gone comedic and we would have gotten a respectable actor.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 23, 2018 20:49:55 GMT -5
Guess it depends on what they were going for. Ideally I’d want the 80s revamp of brainiac but that would have been pretty hard back then. I’m gusssing we would have gotten more of a normal guy. Maaaaaybe with green skin? Hard to imagine what he would have looked like. Those movies never did that kind of make up heavy character. Hopefully they wouldn’t have gone comedic and we would have gotten a respectable actor. The Donner/Mank Superman II script has NO comedy for the Phantom Zone criminals.... they're the 'straight men' to Hackman's Luthor. I would hope/think that Donner would have made Brainiac equally dark and serious. If the 1960's Star Trek could do green skin gals, I don't think there would have been a problem with a green skin Brainiac. The actor who played Agent Smith in the Matrix films comes in mind for casting..... but then again..... what about Rutger Hauer? Donner had a connection with him in "Ladyhawke"... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 23, 2018 22:53:14 GMT -5
Brainiac has green skin but he’s also got other elements that would need to be done as well as what kind of costume do you put him in. They easily could have looked hokey. That’s if they didn’t make major changes to his look.
You can’t really compare it to Star Trek TOS since that show had a different tone and that exact kind of makeup wouldn’t really be up to film standards. I love the old show but most of those old make ups looked just like what the were and on a tv budget. A better comparison would be the Trek movies of the late 70s and the early 80s and what they pulled off. I think most people had higher expectations after seeing what could be done with special make up by 1983.
Zod was serious but then you look and see Hackman as Lex. Zod also looks very much normal. Brainiac...doesn’t.
Hauer maybe but I’d temper it with someone the Salkinds would have also wanted too. They had a say. Hugo Weaving wasn’t really anyone then was he? He couldn’t have been more than 25. This was ten years before Stamp even worked with him in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Even then he hadn’t really made much of a mark for anyone to even think of him in an English/American film.
Between the Salkinds and Donner it probably would have been someone somewhat well know to get some attention.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 24, 2018 15:40:29 GMT -5
Brainiac has green skin but he’s also got other elements that would need to be done as well as what kind of costume do you put him in. They easily could have looked hokey. That’s if they didn’t make major changes to his look. You can’t really compare it to Star Trek TOS since that show had a different tone and that exact kind of makeup wouldn’t really be up to film standards. I love the old show but most of those old make ups looked just like what the were and on a tv budget. A better comparison would be the Trek movies of the late 70s and the early 80s and what they pulled off. I think most people had higher expectations after seeing what could be done with special make up by 1983. Zod was serious but then you look and see Hackman as Lex. Zod also looks very much normal. Brainiac...doesn’t. Hauer maybe but I’d temper it with someone the Salkinds would have also wanted too. They had a say. Hugo Weaving wasn’t really anyone then was he? He couldn’t have been more than 25. This was ten years before Stamp even worked with him in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert. Even then he hadn’t really made much of a mark for anyone to even think of him in an English/American film. Between the Salkinds and Donner it probably would have been someone somewhat well know to get some attention. Donner said Hackman already had his take on Luthor before Donner signed on- but then again, Mank's script adaptation of Puzo's script still had Luthor and company still be comedic to the degree that Zod and company were serious. While Donner and Mank inherited Puzo's script..... I doubt Donner and Mank would have ever made a Superman movie without a sense of humor- but where it might be is questionable. The Daily Planet ensemble might have grown with Cat Grant and Steve Lombard for humor- but would Brainiac have been enough as a villain for Donner? Would Donner have repeated himself and gotten Hackman to play Luthor as go-between again? Would Hackman have been interested? Pity there was no treatment by Mank written for Superman III left behind to be able to make a better guess.... |
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Post by Kamdan on Dec 25, 2018 7:21:40 GMT -5
I’ve spent many years trying to envision what could have been the definitive story for Superman III, but it typically ends up that they covered much of their ground in the first two.
You can’t do much with Lois since they pushed the reset button on their relationship, which is why you would need the Lana Lang element, but where does that lead to? In the released film we have Clark give her a diamond ring and she works at the Daily Planet, so that has to be followed up upon for the next one or completely ignored.
Introducing Supergirl is an interesting angle, but how do you have this character simply pop out of a space capsule in skirted version of the Superman suit, which had no rhyme or reasoning in the Supergirl film? Donner wouldn’t let that fly. Ilya Salkind’s treatment was intriguing with having her and Brainiac be a sort of destructive team that travels throughout the galaxy, like Galactus and Silver Surfer, but what kind of acts can they pull off after we’ve seen Superman restore the San Andres Fault after a major earthquake and engage in a battle royale in Metropolis?
Brainiac as a character has some possibilities, especially if you went with an unorthodox casting choice like Peter O’Toole to play him. You don’t want to have him be another version of their General Zod where his evil is overtly bladient. The best characterization of Brainiac came later when he was associated with the destruction of Krypton, but at the point this was made, he was just an alien android that likes to shrink cities. His possession of the city of Kandor could explain how Supergirl could exist and give Superman the possibilities of actually being amongst his own people again, but again, that’s a new element you would have to follow up in the next films.
Having Superman turn evil was a decent spark of invention and also his vulnerability to magic would be another angle to explore. In a world where Mork from Ork never existed, it would have been WILD if Reeve’s roommate from Julliard, Robin Williams, would have played Mxyzptlk with that same manic tone. Dudley Moore would have been interesting as well, but that constant Arthur Bach-level of zaniness would have become degrading for an entire feature film.
One of the most disappointing ventures of the films was how the films had laid the groundwork with Lex Luthor as a businessman to the public, but a schemer behind closed doors with the character of Ross Webster. When you hear that Ilya wanted Frank Langella for that part, it just makes you wish that they would have created that notion from the start to make him a great recurring villain out of Lex Luthor. If I could change one thing from the first two films, I’d go with that, but as it is, seeing Luthor, yet again, break out of prison and scheme to destroy Superman seems too trite, which is what bogged down Superman IV, aside from the terrible special effects.
When Superman was first conceived as a two part film, it seemed like they set out to make a definitive vision of what endured about the character over the time period he existed at that point. It could depict more vivid super feats that couldn’t be carried out in other mediums than the comics. Everything great about Superman was covered in the two films conceived and anything else just seemed superfluous. The only real decent follow up would be something like Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, which could have been a better film to conceive around than The Quest for Peace. I still would be willing to trade Supergirl, Superman IV and even the Salkind’s Santa Claus movie for a decent Superman III, but conceiving that idea is a lot harder than it seems and what we were left with is making more sense as I get older.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 25, 2018 18:42:31 GMT -5
I’ve spent many years trying to envision what could have been the definitive story for Superman III, but it typically ends up that they covered much of their ground in the first two. You can’t do much with Lois since they pushed the reset button on their relationship, which is why you would need the Lana Lang element, but where does that lead to? In the released film we have Clark give her a diamond ring and she works at the Daily Planet, so that has to be followed up upon for the next one or completely ignored. Introducing Supergirl is an interesting angle, but how do you have this character simply pop out of a space capsule in skirted version of the Superman suit, which had no rhyme or reasoning in the Supergirl film? Donner wouldn’t let that fly. Ilya Salkind’s treatment was intriguing with having her and Brainiac be a sort of destructive team that travels throughout the galaxy, like Galactus and Silver Surfer, but what kind of acts can they pull off after we’ve seen Superman restore the San Andres Fault after a major earthquake and engage in a battle royale in Metropolis? Brainiac as a character has some possibilities, especially if you went with an unorthodox casting choice like Peter O’Toole to play him. You don’t want to have him be another version of their General Zod where his evil is overtly bladient. The best characterization of Brainiac came later when he was associated with the destruction of Krypton, but at the point this was made, he was just an alien android that likes to shrink cities. His possession of the city of Kandor could explain how Supergirl could exist and give Superman the possibilities of actually being amongst his own people again, but again, that’s a new element you would have to follow up in the next films. Having Superman turn evil was a decent spark of invention and also his vulnerability to magic would be another angle to explore. In a world where Mork from Ork never existed, it would have been WILD if Reeve’s roommate from Julliard, Robin Williams, would have played Mxyzptlk with that same manic tone. Dudley Moore would have been interesting as well, but that constant Arthur Bach-level of zaniness would have become degrading for an entire feature film. One of the most disappointing ventures of the films was how the films had laid the groundwork with Lex Luthor as a businessman to the public, but a schemer behind closed doors with the character of Ross Webster. When you hear that Ilya wanted Frank Langella for that part, it just makes you wish that they would have created that notion from the start to make him a great recurring villain out of Lex Luthor. If I could change one thing from the first two films, I’d go with that, but as it is, seeing Luthor, yet again, break out of prison and scheme to destroy Superman seems too trite, which is what bogged down Superman IV, aside from the terrible special effects. When Superman was first conceived as a two part film, it seemed like they set out to make a definitive vision of what endured about the character over the time period he existed at that point. It could depict more vivid super feats that couldn’t be carried out in other mediums than the comics. Everything great about Superman was covered in the two films conceived and anything else just seemed superfluous. The only real decent follow up would be something like Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow, which could have been a better film to conceive around than The Quest for Peace. I still would be willing to trade Supergirl, Superman IV and even the Salkind’s Santa Claus movie for a decent Superman III, but conceiving that idea is a lot harder than it seems and what we were left with is making more sense as I get older. I hear you- I spent a good chunk of time similarly wondering how Superman II's script was SUPPOSED to play out under Donner- and the Mank script I got at a convention was extremely satisfying- EXCEPT for the missing ending. For SII- I agree that it seemed like the script for STM and SII under Puzo was supposed to hit all the 'big moments' such that you might not need to ask any more.... after all, you couldn't really take the Lois story much further the way it played out- unless she got her memory back one day and then they went forward with that (which could have been a possibility).... but the whole time travel reversal that Puzo put in really (imo) kept the series from being more plausible or being closer on the track to being a masterpiece. If anything, I thought (while I have giant issues with) tv's Smallville- the time reversal bit in that show made Clark have to trade the life of one loved one for another- and while it still wasn't a great idea, at least it felt a little more resonant in that you had to give up something for your heart's desire, rather than a superpower of being able to basically have your cake and eat it, too. But- anyhow, I get off track. I agree that it really seemed like Puzo was imagining it mainly as just a two parter with no real follow=up.... and Ilya openly said during SII that he was distracted with things other than making the Superman series in the commentary. If Donner/Mank had been in charge, it seems like they still would have had some limitations (much as you mentioned) in doing a Superman III (or other subsequent sequels) : #1: the time travel/ reversal bit hopefully would be something they never come back to.... there's a great reason nobody ever uses that plot device, outside of time travel movies. #2: the Super/Lois relationship would only be interesting later on, if Lois somehow did remember (if they went with a memory kiss that satisfied Mank somehow)- borrowing some of the more interesting aspects that the Lois & Clark series did get into when she did know who he was. #3: Moving to Clark/Lana's relationship would be interesting if it fills in some of the blanks properly from the gaps in the Smallville story. In an ideal scenario, the actors who played young Lana and Clark wouldn't have aged much at that time and you could do more scenes as a flashback (maybe show Lana finding out about some of Clark's abilities during the Smallville years? Or even Pete Ross?) --- before jumping forward to the 'present day' with Clark and Lana. Though hopefully NOT played for broad laughs. Definitely no little Ricky. #4: Perhaps Brainiac and the introduction of Supergirl could have come simultaneously in Superman 3.( It's a pity that Geoff Johns and Donner never chose to do 'straight sequels' in the comics to Donner's Superman II as a side note) Anyhow- I do think more could have been done for Superman III- expanding the universe a bit, but it really would be a challenge to figure out a way to develop Superman's character further- with having Supergirl in the mix, it would have given a new role for Superman- as older brother/cousin as well as see how he would have interfaced with a new type of alien species with Brainiac. It might be wayyy too late to do in movies, but hopefully one day WB/DC decides to do a 'real' comic adaptation of STM/ II in the comics and perhaps get Donner and Johns to do the SIII that could have happened under him.... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 11:05:21 GMT -5
The basic ideas for Donners Superman III sounds good and even some of Ilyas stuff was fun but there are just so many unknown factors. It could have been done but it would have been difficult. The stuff with Mxy by Ilya was awful and should have been dropped. I probably would have kept Supergirl out of it too because I liked that her movie stuck a little closer to her origin in the comics. Keep Superman III simple with Superman vs Brainiac. I think the only way it could have worked is if she arrived from Argo to ask Superman for help after Brainiac tries to take over. He follows her to Earth after being smitten with her.
Now that I think about it all this could have worked for the Supergirl movie too. Just replace Selena with brainiac and reduce Superman’s role and increase Supergirls. Same story.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 6, 2019 12:58:14 GMT -5
Two of the most awful things in Supergirl for me were: (1) the villains and (2) the ridiculous school material.
If Brainiac were treated seriously and used instead as the villains, I don't know if it would have fixed everything bad about that film, but it definitely would have raised it up a notch (if done right). Great idea that I wish they might have done instead.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 16:11:49 GMT -5
I didn’t mind the school setting concept but it was just poorly handled. You can tell this movie was made by a bunch of middle aged men who didn’t understand and had no idea how to appeal to young people in the 80s particularly teenage girls. It’s a simple childish view of it. The films story needed a major overall. The basics could have been kept the same with the skeleton of the story.
Funny enough the story I have in my head is a little like MOTU. Kara is a young woman living on Argo just as before. Her mentor is Zaltar just as before. We meet Brainiac on his massive ship admiring his collection of cities from countless worlds. Brainiac missed his chance to steal one of Kryptons cities when it exploded. He discovers he’s got another chance when he learns that Argo City survived. His giant skull ship finds Argo. His drone soldiers invade the city and put its people under martial law. He presents himself as a benevolent scientist, explorer, and sort of conservationist who wants to help and protect them but they know what he really is and what he’s planning to do.
Brainiac is confronted by Kara who stands up to him and as an Android he feels a strange thing he’s never felt before: attraction. Zaltar helps Kara escape in a pod to earth. Brainiac has him sent to the Phantom Zone for punishment. Brainiac wants her as the crown jewel on top of his new prize and tracks her pod to Earth. Kara meets Superman after the news of an object entering earths atmosphere. They get to know each other she spends some time on earth while Superman does what he can to help her and Argo. Months later Braniac discovered where her pod landed and arrives on earth himself. Fascinated by such a strange planet he decides to take one of its cities: Metropolis. He and his drones invade the planet and begin taking control. Superman tries to stop him but is stripped of his powers and imprisoned. This means Kara has to face Brainiac alone, protect Earth, save Superman, and free Argo.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 7, 2019 4:44:33 GMT -5
I didn’t mind the school setting concept but it was just poorly handled. You can tell this movie was made by a bunch of middle aged men who didn’t understand and had no idea how to appeal to young people in the 80s particularly teenage girls. It’s a simple childish view of it. The films story needed a major overall. The basics could have been kept the same with the skeleton of the story. Funny enough the story I have in my head is a little like MOTU. Kara is a young woman living on Argo just as before. Her mentor is Zaltar just as before. We meet Brainiac on his massive ship admiring his collection of cities from countless worlds. Brainiac missed his chance to steal one of Kryptons cities when it exploded. He discovers he’s got another chance when he learns that Argo City survived. His giant skull ship finds Argo. His drone soldiers invade the city and put its people under martial law. He presents himself as a benevolent scientist, explorer, and sort of conservationist who wants to help and protect them but they know what he really is and what he’s planning to do. Brainiac is confronted by Kara who stands up to him and as an Android he feels a strange thing he’s never felt before: attraction. Zaltar helps Kara escape in a pod to earth. Brainiac has him sent to the Phantom Zone for punishment. Brainiac wants her as the crown jewel on top of his new prize and tracks her pod to Earth. Kara meets Superman after the news of an object entering earths atmosphere. They get to know each other she spends some time on earth while Superman does what he can to help her and Argo. Months later Braniac discovered where her pod landed and arrives on earth himself. Fascinated by such a strange planet he decides to take one of its cities: Metropolis. He and his drones invade the planet and begin taking control. Superman tries to stop him but is stripped of his powers and imprisoned. This means Kara has to face Brainiac alone, protect Earth, save Superman, and free Argo. I bought the original Supergirl script with the Superman cameo. It's not quite as inept or goofy as the final movie, but it's also not all that interesting, either. That's an interesting idea you have on your version of Supergirl. I definitely liked your idea of Brainiac as the villain, though I kind of liked Brainiac as an emotionless cold robot as a main trait. It's a pity that Supergirl wasn't better written in any case.... Helen looked and acted great in that costume. Would have been interesting to see what the Salkinds would have done if they had done a good Supergirl film --- would they have continued to write Superman as 'off-planet' conveniently so that they wouldn't have to recast Superman if he appeared? Or would the success have attracted Reeve to have come back in some capacity later on? Fun to wonder.... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 7, 2019 8:26:57 GMT -5
I think they probably would have come up with some convenient excuse for when he wasn’t around and tried to get Reeve back where they could. Who knows maybe they would have come up with something long term. Supergirl is a film with some significance for a lot of reasons so it is a shame that it isn’t better and didn’t do better.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 7, 2019 23:29:56 GMT -5
I think they probably would have come up with some convenient excuse for when he wasn’t around and tried to get Reeve back where they could. Who knows maybe they would have come up with something long term. Supergirl is a film with some significance for a lot of reasons so it is a shame that it isn’t better and didn’t do better. I actually thought it was going to be at the 'premium' theatres locally like STM, SII, and even SIII. When it opened up at the 'discount' theatres right off the bat.... it wasn't a good sign. While I love seeing Helen as the character in the costume, it's still a horrible film. I'm shocked that at the convention there were so many fans of it, given how horrible it was. |
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Post by Metallo on Jan 8, 2019 8:56:49 GMT -5
It’s one of those 80s films that a lot of kids probably grew up on on tv or vhs. Howard the Duck is another great example. People of a certain generation love it but it was awful not to mention it flopped as hard as Supergirl. Red Sonja is another one. It’s got its fans. I liked all of them as a kid but when you get older it’s hard to ignore the problems. Krull is another one. Loved it as a kid but watching it as an adult it has not aged well. I think they all have some redeeming qualities though. Supergirls got more going for it than say...Steel...a film you never hear anyone defend.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 12, 2019 19:25:50 GMT -5
It’s one of those 80s films that a lot of kids probably grew up on on tv or vhs. Howard the Duck is another great example. People of a certain generation love it but it was awful not to mention it flopped as hard as Supergirl. Red Sonja is another one. It’s got its fans. I liked all of them as a kid but when you get older it’s hard to ignore the problems. Krull is another one. Loved it as a kid but watching it as an adult it has not aged well. I think they all have some redeeming qualities though. Supergirls got more going for it than say...Steel...a film you never hear anyone defend. Right... The flying scenes and a couple of bits are nice- (At the center of it being Helen as Supergirl in that classic costume-- thank goodness they killed the aerobics' headband before shooting!) On a similar note on enjoying films in childhood-I remember LOVING 'the Last Starfighter'- only to see it years later and wince at a good chunk of it. On the flip side, some things I enjoy a bit more - Excalibur I thought could have been the next "Star Wars trilogy" but felt that they destroyed it by shoving it all in one film--- but with other retellings since then, Excalibur to me shines as the best one. (Pity Singer couldn't do his reboot). |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 13, 2019 17:23:47 GMT -5
Starfighter I still feel is a good film it’s just that parts of it are VERY dated. Excalibur is an odd duck. Parts are fantastic and other parts are not so good. It’s a very awkward but interesting movie. I’ve called it a flawed masterpiece for years even though that doesn’t make much sense. It’s still the best movie about the Arthur legend imo.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 13, 2019 23:35:20 GMT -5
Starfighter I still feel is a good film it’s just that parts of it are VERY dated. Excalibur is an odd duck. Parts are fantastic and other parts are not so good. It’s a very awkward but interesting movie. I’ve called it a flawed masterpiece for years even though that doesn’t make much sense. It’s still the best movie about the Arthur legend imo. Excalibur had a fantastic cast and look. From seeing what he did with SR in respecting original looks, I really would have liked to have seen Singer's reboot of it. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 14, 2019 14:38:54 GMT -5
One could never call John Boormans visual style dull that’s for sure Even Exorcist 2 as much of a hilarious disaster as it is is interesting to look at even if it’s interesting because it’s so over the top. I think a lot of directors can deliver visually no matter what but they need that good script to bring it all together. Some aren’t so good at choosing a good script even when they have time.
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