Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 23, 2018 19:05:28 GMT -5
Boy this is tough. I saw Aquaman and I’ll post more thoughts on it later. Aquaman has its problems but I found it more enjoyable than Man of Steel. It’s just as derivative as mos...maybe more so. There a a couple of great sequences and the production design is incredible but the middle of the movie is just kinda lazy.
BvS was more ambitious deep and intelligent than JL but it also falls harder on its face because it tries to fly higher.
Shazam
Wonder Woman
Aquaman
Man of Steel
Justice League
Batman V Superman
Suicide Squad.
I think in a lot of ways MOS was the better movie but I enjoyed Aquaman more.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 23, 2018 20:46:45 GMT -5
Boy this is tough. I saw Aquaman and I’ll post more thoughts on it later. Aquaman has its problems but I found it more enjoyable than Man of Steel. It’s just as derivative as mos...maybe more so. There a a couple of great sequences and the production design is incredible but the middle of the movie is just kinda lazy. BvS was more ambitious deep and intelligent than JL but it also falls harder on its face because it tries to fly higher. Wonder Woman Aquaman Man of Steel Justice League Batman V Superman Suicide Squad. I think in a lot of ways MOS was the better movie but I enjoyed Aquaman more. My own: Justice League Wonder Woman Batman vs. Superman Aquaman Man of Steel Suicide Squad If Amber Heard and Jason Mamoa had been guided to a better onscreen romance (I thought she looked spectacular but was no Nicole Kidman by a long shot)..... I think Donner/Mank was very right in making the Supe/Lois/Clark dynamic as the central force in the Reeve movies--- I could have forgiven more if they were stronger/ written/directed better in the film, I think. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 23, 2018 22:45:46 GMT -5
I don’t think either Heard or Momoa were actor enough for that. Momoas likable enough and has charisma. I liked them both in this but when even Kidman and Morrison could deliver a more believable on screen romance with far less time and development I think it says a lot about the lack of chemistry between Momoa and Heard. They worked well as a sort of bickering buddies road movie pair but I didn’t buy them as a potential romance. Some of that was the writing but some of that was the pairing. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how good the actors are if the chemistry ain’t there it ain’t there....so there’s that too. I think for it to really work you have to have both the talent and th right pairing.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 26, 2018 16:03:22 GMT -5
I don’t think either Heard or Momoa were actor enough for that. Momoas likable enough and has charisma. I liked them both in this but when even Kidman and Morrison could deliver a more believable on screen romance with far less time and development I think it says a lot about the lack of chemistry between Momoa and Heard. They worked well as a sort of bickering buddies road movie pair but I didn’t buy them as a potential romance. Some of that was the writing but some of that was the pairing. Sometimes it doesn’t matter how good the actors are if the chemistry ain’t there it ain’t there....so there’s that too. I think for it to really work you have to have both the talent and th right pairing. Off-camera, both seem likeable enough- but you're completely right- in just a few minutes, you believe Kidman and Morrison as a couple. Suprisingly Amber Heard I thought came off better in Justice League- but then again, it was one scene where she was angry at Aquaman. Part of the weakness I thought was similiar to what I thought was part of Thor 1's failure- you didn't really get a strong sense of the kingdoms or how they functioned- I know there was a lot that they introduced, but in a very sloppy and not that interesting a way. Right now, though- the box office is tremendous overseas, I'm imagining all to the visuals.... and/or maybe the script seems to have more depth with subtitles? Some are comparing it to 1980s action pictures, but I personally thought even the Glen Larson tv action ripoff pilots like "Battlestar Galactica" and "Buck Rogers" had a little more depth than Aquaman did. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 27, 2018 21:41:05 GMT -5
It’s very much borrowing from a lot of 80s movies like Indy, romancing the Stone, and a few others.
I think it’s doing so well in China because of the visuals and the mythology created for the film, The culture of Atlantis, the giant undersea monsters, and the fun adventure tone. A lot of the same reasons Venom did so well.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 27, 2018 22:18:51 GMT -5
It’s very much borrowing from a lot of 80s movies like Indy, romancing the Stone, and a few others. I think it’s doing so well in China because of the visuals and the mythology created for the film, The culture of Atlantis, the giant undersea monsters, and the fun adventure tone. A lot of the same reasons Venom did so well. The visuals and production value are there..... but Aquabro's and Mera's characters pale in contrast to Indiana Jones and Marion.... if the character development had been pumped up, it would have added far more resonance to everything that was done and their adventure. It wouldn't have taken much.... I feel like John Carter was a far better movie (though not without flaws itself) even if the visuals there were pretty flat. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Dec 28, 2018 9:23:41 GMT -5
I agree. They aren’t as deep or magnetic on the screen. As likable as Momoa is he’s no Ford and it was easy to love Karen Allen because she was pretty but doing the tough independent woman thing before Heard was even born. Better actress
Part of the problem is Wan didn’t get to cast these people. They may not have necessarily fit what he would have done. Shazam is going to be the first real view of a film with no direct Snyder influence. Wonder Woman was good but could it have been even better if Jenkins got to pick her lead? Snyder’s not a Feige. It was a huge mistake to put a director with such a specific style in charge and force everyone else to follow his lead no matter that the character or story were. Snyder cast to fit his vision and everyone else had to deal with it. Fiege isn’t serving his vision so much as he’s building a world that several films by different directors can live in. It’s a collaborative vision.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Dec 28, 2018 14:40:23 GMT -5
I agree. They aren’t as deep or magnetic on the screen. As likable as Momoa is he’s no Ford and it was easy to love Karen Allen because she was pretty but doing the tough independent woman thing before Heard was even born. Better actress Part of the problem is Wan didn’t get to cast these people. They may not have necessarily fit what he would have done. Shazam is going to be the first real view of a film with no direct Snyder influence. Wonder Woman was good but could it have been even better if Jenkins got to pick her lead? Snyder’s not a Feige. It was a huge mistake to put a director with such a specific style in charge and force everyone else to follow his lead no matter that the character or story were. Snyder cast to fit his vision and everyone else had to deal with it. Fiege isn’t serving his vision so much as he’s building a world that several films by different directors can live in. It’s a collaborative vision. The casting you're right was locked in- and Patty Jenkins was incredibly clever to warp everyone else' accent around Gadot's right from the start on Themyscera. It would be interesting, but impossible now to hear who Patty Jenkin's choice might have been to cast for Wonder Woman. I'll give Snyder credit for getting a good Wonder Woman costume down, though- As far as WB handing the reins over to Snyder- I think part of it was Nolan's fault. By having Nolan there for 'quality control'- I think WB felt safe- though it seems like he actually stood on the sidelines rather than stepping in.... but based on how horrible I felt the Dark Knight Returns- who knows if Nolan just nodded and agreed with the final cut? In any case, WB either was just lazy or felt like it was best to let one guy guide the universe..... if it was Joss Whedon I would have had a bit more confidence- but I'm still not all that crazy about his casting and filmmaking... but at least you'd have a great writer in charge who genuinely is a fan of comics. Fiege may be collaborating, but it does seem like he does know (for the most part) what HAS to stay for it to be a good adaptation. For sure, the Master of Kung Fu has to be a nightmare behind the scenes right now.... part of it dealing with bad PR and the other part is - how do you do a faithful adaptation without FuManchu? (But that's another thread in itself). |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2019 16:06:48 GMT -5
Batman V Superman Extended Cut
Man of Steel
Wonder Woman
Justice League
Aquaman
Suicide Squad - I shut this one off after an hour.
Aquaman - there are good components in this film. Momoa was fun. The story was a little all over the place and I was bored through large swaths. I want to believe there's a really fun 90 minute film buried in there - maybe cut some of the childhood sequences out, and a few less action sequences.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 4, 2019 23:10:56 GMT -5
Batman V Superman Extended Cut Man of Steel Wonder Woman Justice League Aquaman Suicide Squad - I shut this one off after an hour. Aquaman - there are good components in this film. Momoa was fun. The story was a little all over the place and I was bored through large swaths. I want to believe there's a really fun 90 minute film buried in there - maybe cut some of the childhood sequences out, and a few less action sequences. I agree that there are good parts in the film- but for me, it still is a toss-up on MOS or Aquaman to me. While Mamoa has charm, both Aquaman and Mera came off as underwritten and underdeveloped on the script level.... (but then again so was MOS' Superman and Lois).... |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 10:35:36 GMT -5
Good points CAM. Both films suffer some of the same problems. It’s also an issue of Snyder casting more on looks or the visual than on talent.
Just as justice league was too short Aquaman was too long. They should have switched run times. I know they wanted JL as short as possible to pack in more screenings but it’s a massive story with six main characters three of whom needed more development. Aquaman could have easily had 20 minutes cut out of it. The pacing is all over the place. It’s just meandering with poor time management for huge chunks of the movie which is strange since it’s not a very complex story. It wasn’t the runtime that’s made Aquaman a hit. If anything it could have made even more with a shorter run time.
They had the time but most of the characters were poorly developed or underwritten. I think a little too much time as spent on certain sequences that weren’t character driven. The final battle was too long and some of the underwater stuff. I know Wan wanted to show off the world building but it’s just staring at cgi.
MOS and BVS are more complex and deeper stories than the simple stuff we got in Wonder Woman Aquaman and JL but much like buying a car that’s more complex that just means there’s more sh!t that can go wrong and that’s exactly what happened. Aquaman wasn’t something you think about a lot but there was less to screw up. MOS was more scrutinized because it was more ambtitous and didn’t deliver for a lot of people. Talk big and you gotta deliver big.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 6, 2019 13:07:51 GMT -5
Good points CAM. Both films suffer some of the same problems. It’s also an issue of Snyder casting more on looks or the visual than on talent. Just as justice league was too short Aquaman was too long. They should have switched run times. I know they wanted JL as short as possible to pack in more screenings but it’s a massive story with six main characters three of whom needed more development. Aquaman could have easily had 20 minutes cut out of it. The pacing is all over the place. It’s just meandering with poor time management for huge chunks of the movie which is strange since it’s not a very complex story. It wasn’t the runtime that’s made Aquaman a hit. If anything it could have made even more with a shorter run time. They had the time but most of the characters were poorly developed or underwritten. I think a little too much time as spent on certain sequences that weren’t character driven. The final battle was too long and some of the underwater stuff. I know Wan wanted to show off the world building but it’s just staring at cgi. MOS and BVS are more complex and deeper stories than the simple stuff we got in Wonder Woman Aquaman and JL but much like buying a car that’s more complex that just means there’s more sh!t that can go wrong and that’s exactly what happened. Aquaman wasn’t something you think about a lot but there was less to screw up. MOS was more scrutinized because it was more ambtitous and didn’t deliver for a lot of people. Talk big and you gotta deliver big. With the mess I feel Aquaman is, I hope that they don't go to James Wan to be their next Kevin Feige. The original story was by Geoff Johns.... how do you screw that up? But then again... how do you screw up Watchmen's story by Alan Moore? Wouldn't it be nice if WB/DC made a deal with Kevin Feige as consultant? He seems to know more how to keep quality control on these hero films... |
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 15:23:37 GMT -5
Why would they get him? Walter Hamada already has that role or their closest equivalent to it. He’s going to be one guy that claims victory for Aquamans success. It’s going to cross a billion. I think the creative problems are a result of them doing some massive restructuring between BvS and now. This isn’t a Snyder style movie though Snyder set the table for them. They had to deal with that and which way to go.
Johns new origin was pretty good but this film was doing a lot as far as filling in the holes of Aquamans story despite us already seeing him. It was just too much to introduce us to the kingdoms of the seven seas, Atlantis and it’s history, cover Aquamans origin, Black Mantas origin, and set up the battle against ocean master. If a lot of the same ground had been covered in Justice League the Aquaman solo movie wouldn’t have needed to have been as bloated.
Really the whole release strategy has been a mistake. They should have done solo films first leading to JL. They never should have hired Snyder to oversee it all and just used this tone from the beginning. Trying to course correct after Snyder meant Aquaman had to use up even more time that could have been used to develop a better story and characters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 15:27:40 GMT -5
Wouldn't it be nice if WB/DC made a deal with Kevin Feige as consultant? He seems to know more how to keep quality control on these hero films... I'd rather they let creative talent do their own thing, and allow the possibility of creative misfires rather than have a house look and feel. Disney films in particular feel homogeneous enough, with gags and plot beats reused across Star Wars and Marvel films. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 15:45:15 GMT -5
Marvel Studios homages Star Wars but Marvel Studios certainly isn’t Lucasfilm. That’s evident in the way they’re each run. Disney has given Marvel Studios pretty free reign so while their films might feel the same within their own studio there is no overarching Disney house style across all their films or the studios they own. Pixar is also very distinct. What Disney does demand is a certain family friendly brand unity. Otherwise they’ve got their own styles. You can tell what John Lasseter did different from Fiege and Kathleen Kennedy.
What you’re saying also applies to WB when they hired Snyder. WB did have a house feel when Snyder was in charge. HIS. Why did he get to chose what everyone else had to use and lay out certain elements of the universe? Snyder had no problem taking the job and setting the style for other artists but now he and his fans are butthurt because his vision was interfered with. Can’t have it both ways. He never should have agreed to do it and just stuck with Superman. Let the director of Wonder Woman cast Wonder Woman. Same with Aquaman. Let those directors guide the designs of everything involving those characters. Snyder didn’t do that. It’s why WB has all the problems they do now. Yeah WB called the shots but Snyder had a say so. They couldn’t force him to do certain things he did.
With a shared universe you pretty much have to have one person in charge. To keep it all unique WB should have never gone for a shared universe.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 16:20:34 GMT -5
With a shared universe you pretty much have to have one person in charge. To keep it all unique WB should have never gone for a shared universe. Yes. Star Wars Last Jedi had the same level humor and plot beat as Thor 3 - both opened with the villain giving his evil plan, only for it to be revealed that the "good guy" wasn't paying attention. Same point in the film. Same gag. Released with-in less of a year of each other. Same company. Could be coincidence, but it wouldn't be all that surprising if there was some free-trade of common "audience pleasing" plot beats available to Disney productions and they pull from the same pool. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 16:45:29 GMT -5
No. Just because they both use humor doesn’t mean they were the same. That’s a pretty broad limited view. It’s like saying Die Hard and Lethal Weapon are the same movie because they share similarities. Thor Ragnoroks humor was much more silly and absurd. I never saw a line in Last Jedi about going up an anus like in Ragnarok. That’s literally in the movie. It’s far far more crass. Johnson was going for a less reverential film that commented on the franchise. The humor is part of that. It doesn’t take it all as seriously but it’s not nearly as colorful as far as the comedy.
Waititi was going for something more fun with Ragnorok being a more overt action comedy. Last Jedi has comedy in it but it’s not an action comedy film. Both had humor but not the same humor. There is no character in Last Jedi like Grandmaster. He’s a farcical figure. Both films tried to change the formula but again not the same. Last Jedi was about defying expectations. Ragnarok was about shaking up the status quo but it didn’t do much of anything that was unexpected. The title is literally Ragnorok: the end of the world. They told you right then that Asgard was screwed.
There are some similarities like the Rebellion and the Asgardians being nearly wiped but but there are some major differences. Last Jedi ended with hope for the future and the point was as long as there was hope the idea of the rebellion would continue. Ragnarok ended with Thanos’s ship face to face with Thor’s. That ain’t hopeful. Loki had the cube so it was obvious to anyone that Thanos was going to come after them.
Loki’s journey in Ragnarok is totally different than Kylo Ren. Both see themselves as slighted sons but Ren reveals himself to be the true villain when he kills snoke and embraces his destiny. Loki rejects his path as a villain when he decides to stand and fight with Thor. Hela was the true villain of Ragnorok. Snoke was just a stepping stone for Kylo Ren to seize true power. If you’re thinking Hela is in the Kylo role then no. Hela never struggled with her dark side like Ren either. She was a monster. It was never abot redemption for her. It’s why Odin imprisoned her.
Rey discoverers that what she hoped for was a lie and had to deal with it. Thor discovered an inner strength he never knew he had. The lie was about his unknown sister not him. Different hero journeys. Luke turned his back on what he had once believed in because of what he did. Ragnorok doesn’t really have a story like that in it. MAYBE Valkyrie but it’s stretching it. She was angry over her fellow warriors being slaughtered over a lie. Odins lie. Luke lost faith in himself over a moment of weakness he had. Totally different
Ragnorok is more of a buddy cop action comedy mixed with a road movie with Thor and Hulk or Thor and Valkyrie. There’s no way you could describe Last Jedi that way.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 16:47:12 GMT -5
I was speaking of that one beat similarity, not that every plot beat is the same. It took me out of the movie for a moment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 16:52:23 GMT -5
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 16:54:51 GMT -5
Lol! One beat doesn’t mean there’s some house style over all these movies under the Disney umbrella. Plenty of movies have done the same thing you’re talking about long before Disney even owned Marvel or Lucasfilm. You can probably find the same types of gags in earlier movies. What you’re talking about is movies drawing from the entire past of the history of the medium. That’s not something exclusively Disney.
Thor’s hammer being destroyed in the third film is a good example. It’s part of a formula that’s been around for decades for the end of a trilogy. A hero facing a dark reflection of himself...again it’s been around forever. Star Wars itself has used gags that have been around forever.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 16:59:03 GMT -5
Are you aware of that gag being used in earlier sci-fi adventure or superhero films? If so, are they from different studios? Both felt very much like a Joss Whedon gag, or something you'd see Jack Sparrow involved with.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 6, 2019 17:04:02 GMT -5
Lol. It’s the same stalling for time gag from Star Trek II AND III! m Kirk even keeps on interrupting Khan similar to how Thor and Poe interrupt Surtur and Hux! Disney didn’t come up with this you know. What makes you think both movies didn’t just take it from other movies and not each other? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 17:06:19 GMT -5
Regardless, if you don't think a mix of light-hearted gags and humor, with some adventure mixed isn't part of Disney's branded family-friendly live-action formula, I'm not really sure what to say. And yes, I'm aware Disney owns other imprints specifically so they can make films that don't follow these formulas ( Is Buena Vista still a thing?)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 17:08:31 GMT -5
Lol. It’s the same stalling for time gag from Star Trek II AND III! m Kirk even keeps on interrupting Khan similar to how Thor and Poe interrupt Surtur and Hux! Disney didn’t come up with this you know. What makes you think both movies didn’t just take it from other movies and not each other? Do you believe Star Trek played those moments for laughs? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2019 17:11:32 GMT -5
I'm curious, do you watch films aside from superhero/big franchise sci-fi or animated films? Like, any film in the past 10 years really rock your world?
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