John Forsythe as Jor-El?

[atp]

I have been watching old reruns of Dynasty from the 80s!

John Forsythe reminds me a bit of Marlon Brando!



In fact, he looks more like Superman's father than Brando! The square jaw and strong features.

His character in Dynasty alternates between fatherly and confrontational.

What do you all think? Might he have been good as Jor El?

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 24, 2018 14:27:25 GMT -5 atp said:

I have been watching old reruns of Dynasty from the 80s!

John Forsythe reminds me a bit of Marlon Brando!



In fact, he looks more like Superman's father than Brando! The square jaw and strong features.

His character in Dynasty alternates between fatherly and confrontational.

What do you all think? Might he have been good as Jor El?

My preference would have been Gregory Peck.... but given how he reportedly punched Richard Donner on the set of the Omen was a bit of a diva, - John Forsythe would have been fine with me over Brando.

Though- I get this feeling that For-el was 'aged up' for Brando.

I'm glad that they didn't go with one concept early on of having the lead actor for Superman also play Jor-el..... even though there are sons that grow up to look just like their fathers, they used that trick in "Backdraft"with Kurt Russell - and it stood out as a gimmick than being plausible.

[atp]

In hindsight, I wonder if Brando was actually worth all the trouble.

Of course, he helped the Salkinds to establish credibility at the start. His name and mystique did a lot.

But then again, there was all of that nonsense with S2, which led to it being a much poorer sequel than it could have been.

His scenes in STM were fantastic, no doubt about that. But the acting in the Donner Cut of S2 was pretty crap actually.

[atp]

Dec 24, 2018 15:31:28 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Dec 24, 2018 14:27:25 GMT -5 atp said:

I have been watching old reruns of Dynasty from the 80s!

John Forsythe reminds me a bit of Marlon Brando!



In fact, he looks more like Superman's father than Brando! The square jaw and strong features.

His character in Dynasty alternates between fatherly and confrontational.

What do you all think? Might he have been good as Jor El?

My preference would have been Gregory Peck.... but given how he reportedly punched Richard Donner on the set of the Omen was a bit of a diva, - John Forsythe would have been fine with me over Brando.

Though- I get this feeling that For-el was 'aged up' for Brando.

I'm glad that they didn't go with one concept early on of having the lead actor for Superman also play Jor-el..... even though there are sons that grow up to look just like their fathers, they used that trick in "Backdraft"with Kurt Russell - and it stood out as a gimmick than being plausible.

I did, at one time, think Christopher Reeve should have played Jor El. But it would have been a bit silly. (Would be an interesting experiment to CGI in an older Reeve, say the way he looked in Remains of the Day).

I do still think it would have been good to have him play young Clark Kent though.

[crazy_asian_man]

Dec 25, 2018 1:29:12 GMT -5 atp said:

In hindsight, I wonder if Brando was actually worth all the trouble.

Of course, he helped the Salkinds to establish credibility at the start. His name and mystique did a lot.

But then again, there was all of that nonsense with S2, which led to it being a much poorer sequel than it could have been.

His scenes in STM were fantastic, no doubt about that. But the acting in the Donner Cut of S2 was pretty crap actually.

Brando seemed to legitimize the production in a lot of ways to attract high-level talent-

But.... the firing/quitting of Donner to me is what destroyed SII from becoming anywhere close to what it should have been, moreso than Brando's absence.

I know there's been the debate of: 'why were Reeve and Brando so great in STM, but not SII'?--- but since there were multiple takes of almost everything and STM/SII were shot at the same time.... To me, it leads me to believe it was the choice of takes and editing that made the performances in one movie far lesser than the other... another example I think of that was how lesser alternate angles were inserted and chosen in a number of scenes that were already edited.

[Metallo]

Forsythe had the look but Brando had the marquee value. They needed him. Not only did it attract investors but it told the industry and the public that this was serious and not some B level production. Same with getting Hackman. Then you add in all the other respected actors and it only reinforced that.

They really did rework the character to fit Brando though. They probably wanted him to still come off as a father to the adult Superman and being older automatically sold that. Jor-El was a younger man but with Brando I think they wanted to go with an elder statesmen take to give him class plus the whole face and voice of god look with the white hair and glowing white/silver clothing. The only reason they probably didn’t give him a beard was they didn’t want to cover his face after what they paid.

Interestingly enough Johns DID give his Brando style Jor-El a beard in the comics. Probably to reinforce to the whole face of god idea as well as get around issues with likeness rights.



I wonder if this was in turn an inspiration to let Russell Crowe keep a beard as Jor-El in MOS?

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 6, 2019 10:45:07 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Forsythe had the look but Brando had the marquee value. They needed him. Not only did it attract investors but it told the industry and the public that this was serious and not some B level production. Same with getting Hackman. Then you add in all the other respected actors and it only reinforced that.

They really did rework the character to fit Brando though. They probably wanted him to still come off as a father to the adult Superman and being older automatically sold that. Jor-El was a younger man but with Brando I think they wanted to go with an elder statesmen take to give him class plus the whole face and voice of god look with the white hair and glowing white/silver clothing. The only reason they probably didn’t give him a beard was they didn’t want to cover his face after what they paid.

Interestingly enough Johns DID give his Brando style Jor-El a beard in the comics. Probably to reinforce to the whole face of god idea as well as get around issues with likeness rights.



I wonder if this was in turn an inspiration to let Russell Crowe keep a beard as Jor-El in MOS?

I do wonder at times what DC does and doesn't have a right to, in terms of the STM movie design and look. I know they were set to have John Byrne draw an adaptation to Superman II to promote SR at the time- so Brando's likeness had to have been paid for/ okayed for that---- but when they decided instead to do somewhat meaningless prequel comics instead.... maybe DC got the rights only for Brando as Jorel for that time only.

Personally, I hate the beard as I grew up on the beardless Curt Swan version of Jor-el. Hate unnecessary changes.

[Metallo]

Well it’s a question of WB having it and not DC and they only had the license to his likeness for a certain period of time and for use with certain products. It’s why back around the release of SR certain merchandise had to use the white costume and the SR S shield on any new products. STM and SII would be a separate deal. That was one limit of the license. It’s why the Hot Toys figure has the SR S. Once the license expired WB would have to renogotiate with Brando’s estate. It’s the same with licensing Reeve’s likeness. It’s not forever.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 6, 2019 15:29:36 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Well it’s a question of WB having it and not DC and they only had the license to his likeness for a certain period of time and for use with certain products. It’s why back around the release of SR certain merchandise had to use the white costume and the SR S shield on any new products. STM and SII would be a separate deal. That was one limit of the license. It’s why the Hot Toys figure has the SR S. Once the license expired WB would have to renogotiate with Brando’s estate. It’s the same with licensing Reeve’s likeness. It’s not forever.

At this stage, it's weird to think that the Brando estate would feel like his likeness would be a gold mine. When I first saw STM, I didn't even know who Brando was, other than other actors and press saying that he was an acting legend.

I do have to admit, if the Salkinds didn't get Brando- would they have just committed to making a lower budget Superman movie?

[Metallo]

I think they fancied themselves as big time producers much like Saltzman and Brocolli and much like those two they thought that spending money to create a lavish production was a way to promote the film and thus make even more money. If they couldn’t get Brando they would have tried for someone as big as possible.

Brando’s likeness isn’t going to make as much as some others but it’s still quite valuable. Think about how much his face and voice and image can be used on when it comes to not only his films but promoting different studios or merchandise. If someone wanted to do some kind of promotional project for something 50s related you’d probably want Brando along with some other recognizable faces of that era like James Dean or Marilyn Monroe. As long as their work is around and being pushed or sold in some way their likeness rights have some value.

Superman’s going to be around for a long time and they’re going to be making stuff associated with his history so just having that association will keep these peoples names and images valuable for someone. If you want to do a project about the history of Superman you can’t leave certain people out. You’d probably want to promote that project or product with their image in some way even if it’s small.

Look at how long Bill Fingers been dead. Most people didn’t know who he was for decades. Yet now as more people learn about his contributions to Batman his image and his story are becoming more and more valuable. A book of movie about Batman’s co creator is going to sell.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 7, 2019 8:15:26 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think they fancied themselves as big time producers much like Saltzman and Brocolli and much like those two they thought that spending money to create a lavish production was a way to promote the film and thus make even more money. If they couldn’t get Brando they would have tried for someone as big as possible.

Brando’s likeness isn’t going to make as much as some others but it’s still quite valuable. Think about how much his face and voice and image can be used on when it comes to not only his films but promoting different studios or merchandise. If someone wanted to do some kind of promotional project for something 50s related you’d probably want Brando along with some other recognizable faces of that era like James Dean or Marilyn Monroe. As long as their work is around and being pushed or sold in some way their likeness rights have some value.

Superman’s going to be around for a long time and they’re going to be making stuff associated with his history so just having that association will keep these peoples names and images valuable for someone. If you want to do a project about the history of Superman you can’t leave certain people out. You’d probably want to promote that project or product with their image in some way even if it’s small.

Look at how long Bill Fingers been dead. Most people didn’t know who he was for decades. Yet now as more people learn about his contributions to Batman his image and his story are becoming more and more valuable. A book of movie about Batman’s co creator is going to sell.

I think the 'pizzazz' that the Salkinds tried for in STM is part of the legend, though.

Donner has said that he wished the movie was marketed more humbly, and that it spread through word of mouth--- but the 'we're making the greatest movie in the world based on a comic book' shout outs when the world was laughing about it- makes the achievement even more memorable. If Superman the movie tanked, it would have been put down in history as "Battlefield Earth" or "Heavens Gate".... or just considered mediocre (Superman 3).

In the end, with the filmmaking and ambition- it's a giant milestone. Not sure if the bragging and marketing before they even found a director helped or hurt it- but it certainly took courage or a ridiculous amount of confidence to associate one's name to something so big.
Good thing Donner saved it and made it a classic....

(*Though it's sad that the Reeve Superman films ended up with "Superman IV"- where you also had producers that considered bigtime, only to make a big bomb- and identified as the worst nightmare scenario for a young actor.)

[atp]

Maybe it would have turned out better if Brando had played somebody who was only needed for STM and not S2. Perhaps the Trevor Howard council leader. Or maybe even Jonathan Jent.

Not having Jor El in S2 really left a gap. If STM and S2 were supposed to be two parts of a single story, then it was just wrong to have Jor El be absent in S2. That automatically cheapens the whole thing.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 13, 2019 2:41:11 GMT -5 atp said:

Maybe it would have turned out better if Brando had played somebody who was only needed for STM and not S2. Perhaps the Trevor Howard council leader. Or maybe even Jonathan Jent.

Not having Jor El in S2 really left a gap. If STM and S2 were supposed to be two parts of a single story, then it was just wrong to have Jor El be absent in S2. That automatically cheapens the whole thing.

It did.... but I have to admit that I forgave most everything, waiting for the big battle--- that I'd been waiting for since STM, and felt like Lester turned it into (mostly) a giant unfunny slspstick fest. Such a bummer that Donner had shot so little for the battle, but was glad (and sad) that the Mank script confirmed that it was definitely meant to be played far more seriously than what Lester had rewritten and shot.

As far as your suggestion for designing Brando to just be in STM and not SII from the outset- That's a tough call. The original script made a great case for Jorel to be there for both films. In any case, so sad that there's no real complete 'canon' version of SII in my mind with what's out there. It'll always be this incomplete and compromised vision.

[Metallo]

Jan 12, 2019 19:48:05 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jan 7, 2019 8:15:26 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I think they fancied themselves as big time producers much like Saltzman and Brocolli and much like those two they thought that spending money to create a lavish production was a way to promote the film and thus make even more money. If they couldn’t get Brando they would have tried for someone as big as possible.

Brando’s likeness isn’t going to make as much as some others but it’s still quite valuable. Think about how much his face and voice and image can be used on when it comes to not only his films but promoting different studios or merchandise. If someone wanted to do some kind of promotional project for something 50s related you’d probably want Brando along with some other recognizable faces of that era like James Dean or Marilyn Monroe. As long as their work is around and being pushed or sold in some way their likeness rights have some value.

Superman’s going to be around for a long time and they’re going to be making stuff associated with his history so just having that association will keep these peoples names and images valuable for someone. If you want to do a project about the history of Superman you can’t leave certain people out. You’d probably want to promote that project or product with their image in some way even if it’s small.

Look at how long Bill Fingers been dead. Most people didn’t know who he was for decades. Yet now as more people learn about his contributions to Batman his image and his story are becoming more and more valuable. A book of movie about Batman’s co creator is going to sell.

I think the 'pizzazz' that the Salkinds tried for in STM is part of the legend, though.

Donner has said that he wished the movie was marketed more humbly, and that it spread through word of mouth--- but the 'we're making the greatest movie in the world based on a comic book' shout outs when the world was laughing about it- makes the achievement even more memorable. If Superman the movie tanked, it would have been put down in history as "Battlefield Earth" or "Heavens Gate".... or just considered mediocre (Superman 3).

In the end, with the filmmaking and ambition- it's a giant milestone. Not sure if the bragging and marketing before they even found a director helped or hurt it- but it certainly took courage or a ridiculous amount of confidence to associate one's name to something so big.
Good thing Donner saved it and made it a classic....

(*Though it's sad that the Reeve Superman films ended up with "Superman IV"- where you also had producers that considered bigtime, only to make a big bomb- and identified as the worst nightmare scenario for a young actor.)

In some ways the salkinds had it right. Play it up as epic to sell it as epic. That’s one reason it was so successful. But some of their ideas were wrong and didn’t fit this project. Donner and the salkinds balanced other. Donner brought the reverence and seriousness while the salkinds brought the big time and the pop culture promotion.

[Metallo]

Jan 13, 2019 2:41:11 GMT -5 atp said:

Maybe it would have turned out better if Brando had played somebody who was only needed for STM and not S2. Perhaps the Trevor Howard council leader. Or maybe even Jonathan Jent.

Not having Jor El in S2 really left a gap. If STM and S2 were supposed to be two parts of a single story, then it was just wrong to have Jor El be absent in S2. That automatically cheapens the whole thing.

I think Brando being someone else like the head of the council could have worked because I do prefer a more traditional Jor El but part of me also thinks Brando was perfect for Jor El. It’s that last crusade logic. Who else could play Indy’s father but a huge star like Connery? Well who else could play Superman’s father but a huge star like Brando? It makes the character seem like a an even bigger deal. He also had that perfect magic magnetism that was larger than life that gave the role so much weight. Those guys were Stars with a capital S (no pun intended) in a way that Russell Crowe, as great as he is, isn’t. They transcended the industry. Connery was also used the same way in Highlander that Brando was in Superman.

I’m torn on Superman II. One part of me wishes Jor El wasn’t in it at all. And no Lara either. It makes his message to Clark in stm more special. It’s one reason extra Jor El scenes in the fortress are something that I don’t care for in the extended versions of stm. I like it being the first and last message from Jor El before he sends his son off into the world as Superman. But if they were going to keep Jor El around yeah it’s awkward that he isn’t in 2. Kind of takes you out of the movie.

[Metallo]

Jan 13, 2019 4:16:22 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jan 13, 2019 2:41:11 GMT -5 atp said:

Maybe it would have turned out better if Brando had played somebody who was only needed for STM and not S2. Perhaps the Trevor Howard council leader. Or maybe even Jonathan Jent.

Not having Jor El in S2 really left a gap. If STM and S2 were supposed to be two parts of a single story, then it was just wrong to have Jor El be absent in S2. That automatically cheapens the whole thing.

It did.... but I have to admit that I forgave most everything, waiting for the big battle--- that I'd been waiting for since STM, and felt like Lester turned it into (mostly) a giant unfunny slspstick fest. Such a bummer that Donner had shot so little for the battle, but was glad (and sad) that the Mank script confirmed that it was definitely meant to be played far more seriously than what Lester had rewritten and shot.

As far as your suggestion for designing Brando to just be in STM and not SII from the outset- That's a tough call. The original script made a great case for Jorel to be there for both films. In any case, so sad that there's no real complete 'canon' version of SII in my mind with what's out there. It'll always be this incomplete and compromised vision.

I’m almost shocked the salkinds didn’t try to re-edit STM and SII into one long movie or miniseries Godfather I and II style to sell to the networks as a miniseries or movie to make more off tv rights similar to what they did with the extended cuts of STM and II. maybe they couldn’t at a certain point for whatever reason?

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 13, 2019 17:17:14 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jan 13, 2019 2:41:11 GMT -5 atp said:

Maybe it would have turned out better if Brando had played somebody who was only needed for STM and not S2. Perhaps the Trevor Howard council leader. Or maybe even Jonathan Jent.

Not having Jor El in S2 really left a gap. If STM and S2 were supposed to be two parts of a single story, then it was just wrong to have Jor El be absent in S2. That automatically cheapens the whole thing.

I think Brando being someone else like the head of the council could have worked because I do prefer a more traditional Jor El but part of me also thinks Brando was perfect for Jor El. It’s that last crusade logic. Who else could play Indy’s father but a huge star like Connery? Well who else could play Superman’s father but a huge star like Brando? It makes the character seem like a an even bigger deal. He also had that perfect magic magnetism that was larger than life that gave the role so much weight. Those guys were Stars with a capital S (no pun intended) in a way that Russell Crowe, as great as he is, isn’t. They transcended the industry. Connery was also used the same way in Highlander that Brando was in Superman.

I’m torn on Superman II. One part of me wishes Jor El wasn’t in it at all. And no Lara either. It makes his message to Clark in stm more special. It’s one reason extra Jor El scenes in the fortress are something that I don’t care for in the extended versions of stm. I like it being the first and last message from Jor El before he sends his son off into the world as Superman. But if they were going to keep Jor El around yeah it’s awkward that he isn’t in 2. Kind of takes you out of the movie.

That's a great point about Brando and Connery's fame versus Russell Crowe's elevating the material tremendously.

The one bit that I do miss a lot from the 'new' Jorel appearance was Superman/Kal-el's forgetting himself and trying to embrace Jor-el... only to have him be a bit embarrassed and forget that his Dad was just a holographic A.I. --- that was a short but significant character moment I felt was sad to have been on the cutting room floor.

The way both Jor-el scenes were scripted (but not completed) seemed pretty powerful on the page. I feel confident that either it was the editing that undid those scenes' power--- or that Donner really would have reshot those scenes if he stayed on. There's just too many great scenes shot by Donner (on STM and his own films) that it's hard to envision him not being able to have good judgement on a performance scene.

[Metallo]

Probably a little of both. I also think Donner would have reshot some stuff but Thaus editing...well what more needs to be said? The Jor-el scenes in stms theatrical cut are step above most of what we saw in other cuts of both films.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 14, 2019 14:35:00 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Probably a little of both. I also think Donner would have reshot some stuff but Thaus editing...well what more needs to be said? The Jor-el scenes in stms theatrical cut are step above most of what we saw in other cuts of both films.

What's also weird is that the 'restored' Jor-el scene for STM has three slightly different cuts out there! The extended tv cut, the Thau extended cut, and there was one more I saw on the web that had a few seconds of Brando's face going from the old 'silver' to the 'pink' face. Very odd...

[atp]

What if Brando had played Lex Luthor instead?

Picturing him the way he looked in Apocalypse Now.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 18, 2019 0:02:52 GMT -5 atp said:

What if Brando had played Lex Luthor instead?

Picturing him the way he looked in Apocalypse Now.

My respect for Brando's performance seems to keep shrinking with every story behind the scenes... but, I guess if you want to know all the behind the scenes secrets, one has to expect the good and the bad.
For sure, not respecting the script early on in front of Chris Reeve had to have made Reeve incredibly nervous throughout the entire production.

But- anyhow-

I actually could envision Brando as a very, very, very scary Otis in STM...... and/or playing Lex not much different than Jor-el, as he'd probably still be reading off of cue-cards and hoping that Lex could be interpreted as a bagel with a toupee.