Remove Lois from California in STM?

[atp]

Like a lot of people, I think the turning back the world nonsense spoils what was otherwise a perfect film.

I used to think it would be better to have a fan edit where Superman rescued Lois before her car gets crushed. But not sure if that could be done with the existing footage.

Now I think it may be better to remove her (and Jimmy) from California totally.I don't actually think they need to be in that part of the movie.

Superman can go from stopping the flood directly to the prison scene. That would eliminate the need to turn back the world.

Anyway, Superman saved Lois enough times in STM. The mugger's bullet, the helicopter, and when she fell during the night flying. He doesn't really need to save her yet again!

Not to mention the fact that he saves her some more in Superman 2! If you take the view that STM and S2 are two parts of one long movie, then one less rescue is hardly a problem.

[inebriated87]

Like you, I feel that Lois outstays her welcome in STM, and whats more the scene where Superman mourns her lifeless body spoils the pacing of the movie. I have often wandered how her presence could be minimised, such as substituting Ned Beatty in the helicopter rescue scene.

There are clues that Donner may have originally intended to do just that. For example, only Beatty's substantial weight could partially dislodge the helicopter from the rooftop steel railings, prompting him to let go of the seatbelt. The notion that Lois' waif-like frame could do the same is puzzling.

[Metallo]

Jul 2, 2019 1:45:31 GMT -5 atp said:

Like a lot of people, I think the turning back the world nonsense spoils what was otherwise a perfect film.

I used to think it would be better to have a fan edit where Superman rescued Lois before her car gets crushed. But not sure if that could be done with the existing footage.

Now I think it may be better to remove her (and Jimmy) from California totally.I don't actually think they need to be in that part of the movie.

Superman can go from stopping the flood directly to the prison scene. That would eliminate the need to turn back the world.

Anyway, Superman saved Lois enough times in STM. The mugger's bullet, the helicopter, and when she fell during the night flying. He doesn't really need to save her yet again!

Not to mention the fact that he saves her some more in Superman 2! If you take the view that STM and S2 are two parts of one long movie, then one less rescue is hardly a problem.

The only way to make it work would be to cut everything with her going into the ground and dying but leave everything leading up to it.

Problem is despite the major issues with the deus ex machina moment of turning back time/going back in time to save her you lose some powerful scenes of her dying and Superman’s reaction. It really encapsulates everything he was trying to reconcile in entire film. Logically it’s silly but emotionally and as far as his arc it makes sense. I don’t think there is an easy fix. You lose something either way.

Now Superman IIs conundrum is much much worse. Neither versions ending really works very well but one is worse than the other one though. Turning back time is even more stupid in the Donner cut and emotionally doesn’t work as well. The kiss works in some ways but doesn’t in others.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 2, 2019 18:15:05 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 2, 2019 1:45:31 GMT -5 atp said:

Like a lot of people, I think the turning back the world nonsense spoils what was otherwise a perfect film.

I used to think it would be better to have a fan edit where Superman rescued Lois before her car gets crushed. But not sure if that could be done with the existing footage.

Now I think it may be better to remove her (and Jimmy) from California totally.I don't actually think they need to be in that part of the movie.

Superman can go from stopping the flood directly to the prison scene. That would eliminate the need to turn back the world.

Anyway, Superman saved Lois enough times in STM. The mugger's bullet, the helicopter, and when she fell during the night flying. He doesn't really need to save her yet again!

Not to mention the fact that he saves her some more in Superman 2! If you take the view that STM and S2 are two parts of one long movie, then one less rescue is hardly a problem.

The only way to make it work would be to cut everything with her going into the ground and dying but leave everything leading up to it.

Problem is despite the major issues with the deus ex machina moment of turning back time/going back in time to save her you lose some powerful scenes of her dying and Superman’s reaction. It really encapsulates everything he was trying to reconcile in entire film. Logically it’s silly but emotionally and as far as his arc it makes sense. I don’t think there is an easy fix. You lose something either way.

Now Superman IIs conundrum is much much worse. Neither versions ending really works very well but one is worse than the other one though. Turning back time is even more stupid in the Donner cut and emotionally doesn’t work as well. The kiss works in some ways but doesn’t in others.

Love much of Donner's work- but endings on some of them are not always that great (much like James Mangold).... STM's original script had Lois saved, but the 'pow' at the ending was the release of the criminals, but.... that really left the last act without much of a feeling of relief or resolution.

With the changed ending- yeah, the solution to the time reversal was a mess (the phantom zone could have been seen cracking as a consequence of it- still not perfect, but better I think)- as the time reversal option was always a bad idea (so bad the comics never used it- if it did, it showed time readjusting itself to go back to the original path)...

However- just as Metallo pointed out, and I agree- emotionally it charges the last fifteen minutes incredibly of STM- From having an exclamation point to all the times that Superman was able to save people- to the ONE time he couldn't (echoing Pa Kent's death earlier).... to Superman's rage and scream - to the scene of him in the clouds, listening to all of the voices in the clouds.... powerful and deep- though the solution is ridiculous, of course.

Sadly, Donner had a script that either had time reversal in STM or SII- and unless he decided to jettison that script device altogether- then he would have had to contend with DC probably wanting Superman to mostly stay the same and NOT have Lois know Superman's secret at the end (though it was kind of a moot point to preserve that bit)... so there was going to be SOME goofy solution to it- either the time reversal or the memory kiss.

In an alternate universe where Donner was able to direct both films and the production didn't push them to put the time reversal ending onto STM- it would have been interesting to see how the other version would have played out. I've mentioned before that Spengler mentioned on his commentary that Superman would have been so distraught over half of the world being in shambles that that would be the impetus for him to change history.... and I guess I could sort of see that working- but a primal scream there may or may not have worked, given the humor of much of even Donner's version of SII.... but, who knows? There's certainly a FAR darker fight scene in the original Mank script for SII (something that I wish Mank and Donner would have addressed in their kind of useless commentary)- and maybe Donner would have had Superman bring back the dead in a time reversal, but it's hard to see that happen...

On the other hand, Infinity War and Endgame showed how you could have a superhero film with darkness, humor, and still make complete sense. So, who knows?

[atp]

If the two films were joined into one long story, then California wouldn't be the ending of anything. It would be the middle of the overall story, so it wouldn't really need a dramatic or emotional "closure".

[atp]

If STM and S2 were one long movie, I'd omit the prison warden scene too.

I'd go from Superman damming up the river with a smile of relief directly to the missile shattering the phantom zone and freeing the CGI villains.

Then cut to Metropolis and show Perry White reading the newspaper about Luthor being in jail (from the Donner cut). We don't need to see him being taken to jail.

Then cut to Clark and Lois crossing the street and the taxi hitting him (from Lester version) and the continue with the theatrical version from that point.

[Metallo]

I’d love to see it as one long cut like The Godfather saga but it would require some serious editing to make that middle section work. Or recut it as a sort of mini series into four parts. Part 2 could end on the Superman saving Lois but the phantom zoners free.

[Metallo]

Jul 3, 2019 1:34:42 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 2, 2019 18:15:05 GMT -5 Metallo said:

The only way to make it work would be to cut everything with her going into the ground and dying but leave everything leading up to it.

Problem is despite the major issues with the deus ex machina moment of turning back time/going back in time to save her you lose some powerful scenes of her dying and Superman’s reaction. It really encapsulates everything he was trying to reconcile in entire film. Logically it’s silly but emotionally and as far as his arc it makes sense. I don’t think there is an easy fix. You lose something either way.

Now Superman IIs conundrum is much much worse. Neither versions ending really works very well but one is worse than the other one though. Turning back time is even more stupid in the Donner cut and emotionally doesn’t work as well. The kiss works in some ways but doesn’t in others.

Love much of Donner's work- but endings on some of them are not always that great (much like James Mangold).... STM's original script had Lois saved, but the 'pow' at the ending was the release of the criminals, but.... that really left the last act without much of a feeling of relief or resolution.

With the changed ending- yeah, the solution to the time reversal was a mess (the phantom zone could have been seen cracking as a consequence of it- still not perfect, but better I think)- as the time reversal option was always a bad idea (so bad the comics never used it- if it did, it showed time readjusting itself to go back to the original path)...

However- just as Metallo pointed out, and I agree- emotionally it charges the last fifteen minutes incredibly of STM- From having an exclamation point to all the times that Superman was able to save people- to the ONE time he couldn't (echoing Pa Kent's death earlier).... to Superman's rage and scream - to the scene of him in the clouds, listening to all of the voices in the clouds.... powerful and deep- though the solution is ridiculous, of course.

Sadly, Donner had a script that either had time reversal in STM or SII- and unless he decided to jettison that script device altogether- then he would have had to contend with DC probably wanting Superman to mostly stay the same and NOT have Lois know Superman's secret at the end (though it was kind of a moot point to preserve that bit)... so there was going to be SOME goofy solution to it- either the time reversal or the memory kiss.

In an alternate universe where Donner was able to direct both films and the production didn't push them to put the time reversal ending onto STM- it would have been interesting to see how the other version would have played out. I've mentioned before that Spengler mentioned on his commentary that Superman would have been so distraught over half of the world being in shambles that that would be the impetus for him to change history.... and I guess I could sort of see that working- but a primal scream there may or may not have worked, given the humor of much of even Donner's version of SII.... but, who knows? There's certainly a FAR darker fight scene in the original Mank script for SII (something that I wish Mank and Donner would have addressed in their kind of useless commentary)- and maybe Donner would have had Superman bring back the dead in a time reversal, but it's hard to see that happen...

On the other hand, Infinity War and Endgame showed how you could have a superhero film with darkness, humor, and still make complete sense. So, who knows?

Exactly CAM. Lois dying and him defying the rules to save her is what the entire film was building up to. He couldn’t save Krypton. He couldn’t save Pa Kent. He couldn’t save a lot of people. Because of the rules and his vow. But this was him choosing his humanity over his Kryptonian obligations.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 4, 2019 8:21:08 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jul 3, 2019 1:34:42 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Love much of Donner's work- but endings on some of them are not always that great (much like James Mangold).... STM's original script had Lois saved, but the 'pow' at the ending was the release of the criminals, but.... that really left the last act without much of a feeling of relief or resolution.

With the changed ending- yeah, the solution to the time reversal was a mess (the phantom zone could have been seen cracking as a consequence of it- still not perfect, but better I think)- as the time reversal option was always a bad idea (so bad the comics never used it- if it did, it showed time readjusting itself to go back to the original path)...

However- just as Metallo pointed out, and I agree- emotionally it charges the last fifteen minutes incredibly of STM- From having an exclamation point to all the times that Superman was able to save people- to the ONE time he couldn't (echoing Pa Kent's death earlier).... to Superman's rage and scream - to the scene of him in the clouds, listening to all of the voices in the clouds.... powerful and deep- though the solution is ridiculous, of course.

Sadly, Donner had a script that either had time reversal in STM or SII- and unless he decided to jettison that script device altogether- then he would have had to contend with DC probably wanting Superman to mostly stay the same and NOT have Lois know Superman's secret at the end (though it was kind of a moot point to preserve that bit)... so there was going to be SOME goofy solution to it- either the time reversal or the memory kiss.

In an alternate universe where Donner was able to direct both films and the production didn't push them to put the time reversal ending onto STM- it would have been interesting to see how the other version would have played out. I've mentioned before that Spengler mentioned on his commentary that Superman would have been so distraught over half of the world being in shambles that that would be the impetus for him to change history.... and I guess I could sort of see that working- but a primal scream there may or may not have worked, given the humor of much of even Donner's version of SII.... but, who knows? There's certainly a FAR darker fight scene in the original Mank script for SII (something that I wish Mank and Donner would have addressed in their kind of useless commentary)- and maybe Donner would have had Superman bring back the dead in a time reversal, but it's hard to see that happen...

On the other hand, Infinity War and Endgame showed how you could have a superhero film with darkness, humor, and still make complete sense. So, who knows?

Exactly CAM. Lois dying and him defying the rules to save her is what the entire film was building up to. He couldn’t save Krypton. He couldn’t save Pa Kent. He couldn’t save a lot of people. Because of the rules and his vow. But this was him choosing his humanity over his Kryptonian obligations.

Would have been nice if they kept this, but chose another way to execute it without time travel. Personally, I might have had Brainiac as part of the crystals' intelligence and Supes making a deal with Brainiac to bring her back to life--- but it releasing the criminals somehow as a consequence. Great emotional charge for the last act with Lois' death, but ressurecting her with time reversal was possibly one of the worst ways creatively to do it.

[atp]

If only the producers hadn't meddled and forced Donner to finish STM before it was ready.

STM and S2 will go down in history as one of the biggest tragedies of film making. So frustrating to think of what could have been...

[Kamdan]

Jul 7, 2019 16:02:24 GMT -5 atp said:

If only the producers hadn't meddled and forced Donner to finish STM before it was ready.

STM and S2 will go down in history as one of the biggest tragedies of film making. So frustrating to think of what could have been...

It was supposed to come out in the summer of 1978. Pushing back until Christmas of that year allowed them to deliver some very decent, but time consuming work. Donner was a perfectionist that would scrap entire weeks of filming in Canada if the sky didn’t look right. That’s admirable but stuff like that drives producers because the director is burning their money.

While I still wish that Donner got to fully realize his vision for these two films, I’m still satisfied with what we ended up with. Much of the characterization of Zod and his cohorts shined through under Lester’s direction. I appreciated Lester’s tenderness in the relationship between Lois and Superman. You could tell Donner and Mankiewicz were quite ornery when it came to that material, especially the dumb reasoning that “Clark should not kiss Lois. Only Superman should.” He took off his glasses and WAS Superman in that moment!

If Donner had his way, he would have wanted to completely scrap everything that had been shot for Superman II and start over, but that wasn’t going to happen. He probably would have wanted the Metropolis battle to have features more location work, which would have driven the costs up when they wanted it to be kept low.

I am still not entirely convinced that Donner and Mankiewicz would have stuck around to make more Superman films. Both of them were brought on to work off of someone else’s work and without something like that to go off of, they didn’t have a clue how to handle it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 8, 2019 4:12:13 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Jul 7, 2019 16:02:24 GMT -5 atp said:

If only the producers hadn't meddled and forced Donner to finish STM before it was ready.

STM and S2 will go down in history as one of the biggest tragedies of film making. So frustrating to think of what could have been...

It was supposed to come out in the summer of 1978. Pushing back until Christmas of that year allowed them to deliver some very decent, but time consuming work. Donner was a perfectionist that would scrap entire weeks of filming in Canada if the sky didn’t look right. That’s admirable but stuff like that drives producers because the director is burning their money.

While I still wish that Donner got to fully realize his vision for these two films, I’m still satisfied with what we ended up with. Much of the characterization of Zod and his cohorts shined through under Lester’s direction. I appreciated Lester’s tenderness in the relationship between Lois and Superman. You could tell Donner and Mankiewicz were quite ornery when it came to that material, especially the dumb reasoning that “Clark should not kiss Lois. Only Superman should.” He took off his glasses and WAS Superman in that moment!

If Donner had his way, he would have wanted to completely scrap everything that had been shot for Superman II and start over, but that wasn’t going to happen. He probably would have wanted the Metropolis battle to have features more location work, which would have driven the costs up when they wanted it to be kept low.

I am still not entirely convinced that Donner and Mankiewicz would have stuck around to make more Superman films. Both of them were brought on to work off of someone else’s work and without something like that to go off of, they didn’t have a clue how to handle it.

I disagree on Lester's reworking of Donner's criminals from scary characters to being comedic- Donner did have some comedy (some of it also admittedly too much) but not with the criminals- at least going by the Donner material and the Mank script, and in seeing the better Marvel movies, I could see how great having both comedy and actually scary villains could elevate the material even more.

If the Metropolis battle had more location work, that would have been fantastic- but I would have been satisfied with a set that wasn't lit in a way that made it look like a set -or- worse- cheap slapstick scenes that took away from the energy of the final battle that the movie had been leading up to, by having them at the wrong time.

It is a pity that Lester never participated in the commentaries, though.... I would have been open to hearing his side of the story, whether there was any regret or misunderstanding.

The thing is: when the movie came out and it was a hit, Lester could have always emphasized that half of the film was Donner's work, and that without Donner setting all the cards in place in the first place, the movie might have ended up as bad as- well- Superman 3.

[Metallo]

Donner and Lester both have their strengths and weaknesses and while I prefer some of Lester’s stuff Donner grounded the series in a way Lester never did or would have. Lester didn’t always take it seriously which ended up being one of the big downfalls of the series. Without Mank and Donner it all crashed and burned anyway because certain other people weren’t perfectionist enough. For the first film to succeed I think Donner kind of had to be. The best bits of Superman II are when Donner and Lester’s material flows together more seamlessly.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 9, 2019 10:48:00 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Donner and Lester both have their strengths and weaknesses and while I prefer some of Lester’s stuff Donner grounded the series in a way Lester never did or would have. Lester didn’t always take it seriously which ended up being one of the big downfalls of the series. Without Mank and Donner it all crashed and burned anyway because certain other people weren’t perfectionist enough. For the first film to succeed I think Donner kind of had to be. The best bits of Superman II are when Donner and Lester’s material flows together more seamlessly.

I think Lester's SIII - showed he just wasn't in the same league as Donner. The good material in SII that was directed by Lester I feel all was built on top of the house Donner & Mank built. There are times when it flows, but mostly the material jumps off the track into different levels of silliness... some times not as offensive as others.

Lester's sloppiness I think showed even down to Reeve's sloppy dye job in SIII.

[atp]

Bizarrely, I find that S3 is the most "solid" and consistent of the series.

It doesn't suffer from the jarring changes that Superman 2 has. And the special effects are at their best in S3.

Of course, that doesn't mean S3 is anywhere as good as STM. But certainly feels more polished overall.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2019 3:26:13 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 9, 2019 10:48:00 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Donner and Lester both have their strengths and weaknesses and while I prefer some of Lester’s stuff Donner grounded the series in a way Lester never did or would have. Lester didn’t always take it seriously which ended up being one of the big downfalls of the series. Without Mank and Donner it all crashed and burned anyway because certain other people weren’t perfectionist enough. For the first film to succeed I think Donner kind of had to be. The best bits of Superman II are when Donner and Lester’s material flows together more seamlessly.

I think Lester's SIII - showed he just wasn't in the same league as Donner. The good material in SII that was directed by Lester I feel all was built on top of the house Donner & Mank built. There are times when it flows, but mostly the material jumps off the track into different levels of silliness... some times not as offensive as others.

Lester's sloppiness I think showed even down to Reeve's sloppy dye job in SIII.

I agree. If Lester didn’t have Donners material to build around or build on it wouldn’t have been as good. Superman III proved that.

[Metallo]

Jul 16, 2019 4:14:04 GMT -5 atp said:

Bizarrely, I find that S3 is the most "solid" and consistent of the series.

It doesn't suffer from the jarring changes that Superman 2 has. And the special effects are at their best in S3.

Of course, that doesn't mean S3 is anywhere as good as STM. But certainly feels more polished overall.

I sort of agree. Certain things are more consistent and down to a science by III like the take offs and landings. The fx are better than what we saw in II. TONALLY it’s all over the place. Not as bad as II since it’s one director but it’s not as focused as STM. Donner had a more dynamic and creative use of the camera though. III did have more comic book pop.

[atp]

STM is an epic.

S3 is a comic book movie come to life.

S2 is a hybrid of both.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 3, 2019 2:38:27 GMT -5 atp said:

If the two films were joined into one long story, then California wouldn't be the ending of anything. It would be the middle of the overall story, so it wouldn't really need a dramatic or emotional "closure".

I feel like as it is/was, without Lois' death- then it's a pretty long amount of film time of Superman saving everyone with no suprises- and the payoff is the 'frrrreee!' as written in the Mank script. It's really a pity that there's no alternate version to have a 'feel' on how well it would have worked if the 'cliffhanger' had enough punch to make someone feel satisfied after 2 hours and 20 minutes.

With a similar situation with Back to the Future 2- there was a sense of partial closure with a lot of that story being resolved... so I feel like that kind of worked. With Empire Strikes Back, that might be a stronger comparison as to how the original STM script might have played out... but I'm not sure that the emotional 'punch' would have been that big with Luthor's threat dulled somewhat with how Luthor was portrayed as comic relief (which I didn't care for but see how it fit perfectly against Donner's more serious Phantom Zone criminals In SII) for STM- Capturing Lex felt more like setup (which it was) rather than a real sense of danger being alleviated, like in the Dark Knight movie with Ledger's Joker threat being removed.

Originally, I'd read that STM and SII were planned to come out at the same time, so that it would be a unique experience of going to one theater, then going to another to see part two.... but it might have been nothing more than a rumor. I can't imagine now having a plan where a film series competes against itself for a theatre.

But- if that was the case, then I could see the energy staying 'high' for people to rush into one theatre and then go into another- so the lack of a real emotional 'burst' at the end of the original STM might have still felt fine.... but if this was going to be similar to an 'Infinity War' scenario--- (but not nearly as sad)- then I might have recommended that there be a SECOND tease by editing Lois actually wonder to herself about Clark and Superman- but re-edit it slightly to see that it really is on her mind (adding more to the beginning of the original Donner SII) - rather than quickly dismissing it as she does at the end of the movie.

Anyhow- it would be interesting if someone cut a back to back STM/SII cut that removed Lois' death (which I think might not be that hard to do) and just made it a long five hour movie.... but, then again, as much as I love the Donner films- sitting down for a five hour movie gets less and less practical likewise.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 16, 2019 16:16:23 GMT -5 atp said:

STM is an epic.

S3 is a comic book movie come to life.

S2 is a hybrid of both.

Even if S3 chose to go with being primarily a comedy- then do it like Thor 3- where the spectacle and the humor shine. I didn't think S3 was funny nor that impressive visually- at least S4 had the ambition and interest, even if it didn't have the budget to do so.

To me, Lester just didn't have that kind of enthusiasm in him to know how to embrace both. The flights might have worked better by that time, but rather than pushing for more ways to 'wow' the audience visually in that department- (The scripted SIII actually sounds a little more visually interesting in the junkyard battle if memory serves, with it being set at dawn, looking a bit like heck)- well, Lester has his strengths, but visuals aren't one of them. He's no Speilberg, whereas Donner arguably could challenge Speilberg for the director's throne imo.

[atp]

Jul 17, 2019 10:56:30 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jul 16, 2019 16:16:23 GMT -5 atp said:

STM is an epic.

S3 is a comic book movie come to life.

S2 is a hybrid of both.

Even if S3 chose to go with being primarily a comedy- then do it like Thor 3- where the spectacle and the humor shine. I didn't think S3 was funny nor that impressive visually- at least S4 had the ambition and interest, even if it didn't have the budget to do so.

To me, Lester just didn't have that kind of enthusiasm in him to know how to embrace both. The flights might have worked better by that time, but rather than pushing for more ways to 'wow' the audience visually in that department- (The scripted SIII actually sounds a little more visually interesting in the junkyard battle if memory serves, with it being set at dawn, looking a bit like heck)- well, Lester has his strengths, but visuals aren't one of them. He's no Speilberg, whereas Donner arguably could challenge Speilberg for the director's throne imo.

I wonder what a Spielberg version of STM and S2 would have been like.

Pretty good, I would bet.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 17, 2019 16:16:08 GMT -5 atp said:

Jul 17, 2019 10:56:30 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Even if S3 chose to go with being primarily a comedy- then do it like Thor 3- where the spectacle and the humor shine. I didn't think S3 was funny nor that impressive visually- at least S4 had the ambition and interest, even if it didn't have the budget to do so.

To me, Lester just didn't have that kind of enthusiasm in him to know how to embrace both. The flights might have worked better by that time, but rather than pushing for more ways to 'wow' the audience visually in that department- (The scripted SIII actually sounds a little more visually interesting in the junkyard battle if memory serves, with it being set at dawn, looking a bit like heck)- well, Lester has his strengths, but visuals aren't one of them. He's no Speilberg, whereas Donner arguably could challenge Speilberg for the director's throne imo.

I wonder what a Spielberg version of STM and S2 would have been like.

Pretty good, I would bet.

Yeah, but... a few things:

Speilberg was interested in doing STM first- but it was before "Jaws" came out, so the Salkinds didn't realize what they could have had. After "Jaws" broke box office records, it was too late- he moved onto "Close Encounters'.

If Close Encounters was Speilberg's dream project, then Superman was Donner's. Donner and Speilberg both had done tons of television before doing movies, so it seems to have influenced both of them to make their films far more visually dynamic --- (but then again, Joss Whedon and Jeannot Swarc had also done a lot of tv, but their movies seem a bit tv-movie like so I might be assuming too much just from that).

Anyhow- I really feel like Donner's and Speilberg's style at the time were VERY similar. For sure, though, Donner had a perfect editor in Stuart Baird.

On the flip side- I'd heard that Robin Williams and Speilberg had considered "Hook" 'their' Superman the Movie. If so..... more than a bit underwhelming, as it's one of Spielberg's worst films.

Still.... if there was an alternate universe where Speilberg directed any Superman films, of course I'd love to see it!

And--- try this on: What if the Salkinds went to Speilberg to finish SII instead of RIchard Lester? Could you imagine that?

[atp]

Interesting that both Donner and Spielberg burst onto the mainstream with horror films. Spielberg had Jaws, and Donner had The Omen.

Yes, it would have been a much better fit for Spielberg to take over instead of Lester. Close Encounters of the Third Kind and STM have a similar feel about them. In fact, I bet that a lot of people assume that STM was a Spielberg film unless they pay attention to directors' names!

[crazy_asian_man]

Jul 17, 2019 23:56:54 GMT -5 atp said:

Interesting that both Donner and Spielberg burst onto the mainstream with horror films. Spielberg had Jaws, and Donner had The Omen.

Yes, it would have been a much better fit for Spielberg to take over instead of Lester. Close Encounters of the Third Kind and STM have a similar feel about them. In fact, I bet that a lot of people assume that STM was a Spielberg film unless they pay attention to directors' names!

Absolutely!
Donner was in his prime at that time (though I still would love to see him direct)- I thought "Inside Moves", the infamous "Ladyhawke", and of course "Lethal Weapon" were all great films-

Later on, I feel like Donner just latched onto bad scripts (though not always)-- but the performances were always great & the storytelling solid.

Hoping that WB gives Donner a chance to wrap up his Lethal Weapon series the right way while Mel and Glover are still alive, though!