atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,823 
|
Post by atp on Apr 23, 2020 21:15:33 GMT -5
Lester: - Supes depowered This is a weird one to compare to the RDC--- mainly because: (1) The RDC had no Lois closeup reactions shots (2) We know from the documentary that Donner did want something visual to happen from Supes' point of view with the kaleidoscope experiment--- but hadn't shot or figured it out before Donner left. (3) It didn't have Reeve closeup shots either, it seemed! So... It's no wonder the lester version works far better. It had those advantages. While part of me screamed "CHEAP!!!" when seeing the Superman (outtake?) footage for the trial by fire sequence, it works as part of that montage to give an effect that something major happened- I guess the plexiglass redesign lets you see Reeve's reaction better--- but I can get why Donner wanted his face a bit obscured both in depower/repower... The 'skeleton' Superman effect was weird--- and I can't argue that the scene has a 'punch' that the incomplete Donner version doesn't have- and there are nice shots- but.... on paper that sequence in the Mank script was more intense and powerful. Impossible to have that power if you don't have the closeups necessary. Oh well.  I thought the ghostly after-image of Superman staying in the chamber was a good touch. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 0:39:16 GMT -5
Lester: - Supes depowered This is a weird one to compare to the RDC--- mainly because: (1) The RDC had no Lois closeup reactions shots (2) We know from the documentary that Donner did want something visual to happen from Supes' point of view with the kaleidoscope experiment--- but hadn't shot or figured it out before Donner left. (3) It didn't have Reeve closeup shots either, it seemed! So... It's no wonder the lester version works far better. It had those advantages. While part of me screamed "CHEAP!!!" when seeing the Superman (outtake?) footage for the trial by fire sequence, it works as part of that montage to give an effect that something major happened- I guess the plexiglass redesign lets you see Reeve's reaction better--- but I can get why Donner wanted his face a bit obscured both in depower/repower... The 'skeleton' Superman effect was weird--- and I can't argue that the scene has a 'punch' that the incomplete Donner version doesn't have- and there are nice shots- but.... on paper that sequence in the Mank script was more intense and powerful. Impossible to have that power if you don't have the closeups necessary. Oh well. I thought the ghostly after-image of Superman staying in the chamber was a good touch. I have mixed feelings on the costume change... visually it did look neat, though... |
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,823
|
Post by atp on Apr 24, 2020 2:02:02 GMT -5
I don't like the skeleton effects. Looks cheap. It was dramatic, but they could have used a different approach.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 3:02:00 GMT -5
I don't like the skeleton effects. Looks cheap. It was dramatic, but they could have used a different approach. I hear you- It did look cheap... but moreso, it didn't feel stylistically in line with the first movie. I often look to the other Donner/Baird collaborations to see how they handled similiar things and bits- It's possible that we would have gotten more closeups of Reeve on the inside intercut with flashes of outtakes perhaps over a shot like the skeleton-superman. I did wonder what Donner/Baird would have come up with - as we know that he was planning something to 'juice up' the depowering scene with that psychedelic experiment... but it seems (just like the time reversal repeat) that they just didn't have time or resources to finish it up properly either time... |
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,823
|
Post by atp on Apr 24, 2020 5:08:04 GMT -5
I don't like the skeleton effects. Looks cheap. It was dramatic, but they could have used a different approach. I hear you- It did look cheap... but moreso, it didn't feel stylistically in line with the first movie. I often look to the other Donner/Baird collaborations to see how they handled similiar things and bits- It's possible that we would have gotten more closeups of Reeve on the inside intercut with flashes of outtakes perhaps over a shot like the skeleton-superman. I did wonder what Donner/Baird would have come up with - as we know that he was planning something to 'juice up' the depowering scene with that psychedelic experiment... but it seems (just like the time reversal repeat) that they just didn't have time or resources to finish it up properly either time... Lester was capable of doing something better. I like the style he used in S3 for evil Superman splitting into Clark. And then the way the evil Superman dissolved. The skeleton stuff belongs in Nightmare on Elm Street, not Superman. |
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 17,075
|
Post by Metallo on Apr 24, 2020 15:24:41 GMT -5
Lester could do comic booky (sometimes well sometimes it was stereotypical) but he had trouble making Superman look as cinematic the way Donner did. Or he didn’t care because he didn’t take the material seriously enough. Few directors who’ve made movies with him have had the ability to do both with the character.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 17:30:51 GMT -5
I hear you- It did look cheap... but moreso, it didn't feel stylistically in line with the first movie. I often look to the other Donner/Baird collaborations to see how they handled similiar things and bits- It's possible that we would have gotten more closeups of Reeve on the inside intercut with flashes of outtakes perhaps over a shot like the skeleton-superman. I did wonder what Donner/Baird would have come up with - as we know that he was planning something to 'juice up' the depowering scene with that psychedelic experiment... but it seems (just like the time reversal repeat) that they just didn't have time or resources to finish it up properly either time... Lester was capable of doing something better. I like the style he used in S3 for evil Superman splitting into Clark. And then the way the evil Superman dissolved. The skeleton stuff belongs in Nightmare on Elm Street, not Superman. Agreed.... it's just one of a number of things that look like 'let's take a cheaper easier way out' that bugs/bugged me about parts of SII... Lester had his moments in SII and SIII.... but what made STM special was the feeling that every scene was meant to be knocked out of the park cinematically, regardless of expense. Sidney Furie seemed to have his heart in the right place.... but not enough of a budget. So sad... |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 17:40:47 GMT -5
Lester could do comic booky (sometimes well sometimes it was stereotypical) but he had trouble making Superman look as cinematic the way Donner did. Or he didn’t care because he didn’t take the material seriously enough. Few directors who’ve made movies with him have had the ability to do both with the character. Honestly.... I wouldn't mind being able to watch a fully-directed Lester version of SII next to a fully-directed Donner version of SII--- just out of curiosity's sake.... but if SIII was completely Lester's (and it was), it's a good display of Lester's strengths and weaknesses with a decent budget. Mank was diplomatic (or maybe objective enough?) to say that Lester and Hamilton just weren't the right fits for Supes because of their cynical outlook on things. Now and then I feel bummed that Donner/Reeve's Superman just never got the chance to really 'take off' beyond 1 1/2 films- I look to today and see how Singer/Jackman's Wolverine was able to have SO many tries at the bat with a good number of writers, directors, and finished films. If Donner were able to stay.... if a less cynical director was brought in to finish up SII.... or if a good director took over SIII.... or if SIV had done better--- how nice it would have been to have seen other approaches by other directors and writers if they were on the same league as Donner- |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 18:35:59 GMT -5
Lester scenes: - Clark and Lois have a nap - Three seconds of Mount rushmore Was it just me, or did the scene where the depowered Clark goes up to Lois in the FOS, and has those lines where she says she can't believe that she did that for her & he replies that he did it because he loved her seem a bit... forced? We know that Kidder has beeen pretty open about her being annoyed at Lester's replacing Donner in SII- but there were scenes that Lester directed that I thought still worked and you couldn't really tell if there was anything going behind the scenes- The Water Jump, the Pink Bears, and even the 'FOS dinner' scene felt like the performances flowed better and (particularly with the Pink Bears and FOS dinner scenes)- the closeups seemed to work really well.... but this one particular scene even from first viewing felt.... flat and a bit awkward.... which was strange, because while I wasn't overly crazy about the other scenes mentioned, I did buy into them and the emotions that seemed expressed.... but not here. I'm not sure if it was just rushed to catchup, or if there needed to be more closeups to show other mixed emotions of the scene (I point towards the balcony interview scene with Donner, where on the page, it's not much, but there's so much played in moments nonverbally under the surface that it's a wonderful scene)- but, it always felt a bit insincere to me--- the memory kiss I thought played better performance-wise. We know that Kidder and Reeve fought behind the scenes, but I'm not sure if Lester wanted to show that there really wasn't a great relationship under the surface or that he felt uncomfortable with the love story--- but it's odd, again, because I did think he did deliver on some of the other scenes with Kidder and Reeve. Who knows? --- And as far as the Mount Rushmore scene- I think even Ilya Salkind said that the Mount Rushmore scene was already shot by Donner -- so why didn't they include it in the RDC (or theatrical)  ? Odd odd odd... |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 22:58:17 GMT -5
Lester- - Clark goes to repower
I think this is one scene where almost everyone agrees that AS EDITED - The Lester version versus the Donner version wins hands-down.
I've said this before (actually I hace said a lot before, but..) - Having the dark lighting, the slow walk of Supes/Reeve walking into the room, the improvised shortened performance actually plays much better than the 'rushed' take (faster faster faster!)- of Reeve running into the FOS and then going right into the Mario Puzo greek tragedy speech of how he failed humanity- We know that Michael Thau was told by Donner to keep things moving faster (big mistake) - were these the best and only takes of Reeve entering the FOS?
Everything in STM has a smooth transition- but in the RDC, more often than not, it doesn't.... so either these were the best takes, but the scene before doesn't really match- or -the slower takes that Donner might have shot would have been far more fitting. We just don't know... .
But, as is--- the Lester version of Clark going to ask his dad to repower him is the better choice. Everything lines up. (until we have further evidence).
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2020 23:08:24 GMT -5
Lester scenes: - Metro battle I've said this a zillion times- the Metro battle had a few seconds of seriousness here and there, that goes right into the toilet with becoming the backdrop for the 'humor' of the folks on the street- much like the tone of the Houston scenes with the villains and the deputy sheriff. It was never written that way by Mank, and even Ilay Salkind had sort of apologized for not having a stronger producer's hand for this sequence. Imagine the level of filmmaking artistry by Donner & Baird on the helicopter sequence, the moon sequence, the white house sequence, and imagine it applied to the Metro Battle. What a sad lost opportunity... at least we got a few seconds of what we might have gotten in the RDC, but... they're only seconds! I may have been able to forgive a lot of the rest, but I was MAD when I saw the build up to this sequence, that was the biggest letdown imo. The Rocky series never built up a whole movie to the final fight and then let it get overtaken by slapstick. Such a bad call that even the Ewoks in Return of the Jedi or midichlorans in Phantom Menace wasn't as bad, imo. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2020 15:42:32 GMT -5
Lester: - FOS redux
The annoying thing was: after subverting the giant set pieces that were supposed to happen in the Metro battle scenes- Lester and the writers turn around and try to 'juice up' action in the Fortress of Solitude???
By this time, the energy I thought was kind of drained emotionally... and the bizzare additional powers in the fortress don't add anything- enough that it got parodied and mocked to today. Did the writers feel that the powers that they already had wasn't enough to make a spectacular film?
Why couldn't Lester just follow the script that was already there in the beginning???
Money thrown at building 'Houston' could have been saved and re-allocated to finance the rest of the Mnak script instead.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2020 15:48:31 GMT -5
Lester: Memory Kiss
Possibly one of the most awkward and non-epic scenes.... but, I thought the IDEA was okay- somehwere I think I'd read Reeve had described it in a way that made it sound poetic.... but in thinking of all the visual beauty from STM and parts of SII--- while I see how they wanted to sew this into footage already shot- couldn't they have rebuilt the balcony set and and rewrite the memory kiss to have happened there?
Again, Verisimiltude in his fan cut did a wonderful 'save' to this sequence using what comes off as Lois' pov with a dreamlike filter and music, as if each of the memories were being dissovled. Very moving scene that Veris had created that 'saves' the scene imo.
Anyhow... next ot last scene---
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2020 15:54:41 GMT -5
Lester: - Flag restored without Marshall
This is a funny scene to mention as Booshman has just 'saved' it with his fx work on fixing the frozen fountain and odd top that Supes was flying to the top of the White House. Reeve is great, it's a short scene, but... would have been a nice touch if they got Marshall back for a quick reaction shot.... but then again... when I remember the hairpiece on the top of E.G. Marshall--- that's one thing I can't blame on Lester.
I know it sounds like a lot of Lester-bashing, but it's nothing personal... but it's annoying that it took so many things for STM to be done 'right', and it didn't take much for SII to be pushed off the tracks that it was originally set to go on.
He could have still have had a lot of credit if just followed the script, but....I guess it could have been worse. I should think of it that way.
|
|
