Backseat directing years later: Donner & Lester scenes

[crazy_asian_man]

Well....most things are re-discussed over our favorite films and probably mentioned many times, but why not again?
Hopefully there are new micro-bits we haven't discussed:

* Lester's scenes:
- Krypton guard sequence
- Paris
- Orange Juice
- Nasa portion of Moon Attack
- Honeymoon Haven
- Niagara Rescue
- PZ villains land/melt a snake
- Pink Bear reveal
- PZ villains meet Sheriff/get siren
- PZ villains go into a bar/levitate citizens
- PZ villains meet a very small army
- Lois/Supes FOS romance/flowers
- Supe/Lois/mom talk
- Supes depowered
- Clark and Lois have a nap
- Three seconds of Mount rushmore
- Clark goes to repower
- Metro battle
- FOS redux
- Memory Kiss
- Flag restored without Marshall

* Donner's scenes:
- Rocket frees pz criminals/ freee!!!
- DP jump
- Lex in Prison
- Moon Attack
- (rehearsal) blank bullets
- Supes/Jorel talk (lois double)
- Depowering with a double
- White House
- Diner
- Repowering (Thau)
- DP attack-
- DP return-
- Original FOS confrontation
- Arctic Police (deleted)
- Supes/lois talk outside FOS
- Supes destroys FOS
- Supes/Lois/balcony talk
- Pizza
- Diner rematch

[crazy_asian_man]

Nit picking:
Lester's opener with the attack on the prison guard attack-

We know it's a quick shot/ transition to bridge to the Donner-shot trial sequence, but that scene could have been a 'meal' in itself and could have been a great character piece, under stronger screenwriters and a director who really might have wanted to treat the characters seriously.

It does the job.... in a tv movie sort of way.... but... that kind of covers much of my irritation with the Lester material. Lack of ambition to total undermining of the previous director's vision..

More to come..

[atp]

Apr 17, 2020 2:58:34 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Nit picking:
Lester's opener with the attack on the prison guard attack-

We know it's a quick shot/ transition to bridge to the Donner-shot trial sequence, but that scene could have been a 'meal' in itself and could have been a great character piece, under stronger screenwriters and a director who really might have wanted to treat the characters seriously.

It does the job.... in a tv movie sort of way.... but... that kind of covers much of my irritation with the Lester material. Lack of ambition to total undermining of the previous director's vision..

More to come..

Yes, that part feels just like a TV movie. Even the costumes have a cheaper look about them. And the acting is just poor too.

Personally, I don't think S2 needs the pre-credits recap. I would prefer if parts of the trial were shown within the credits flashbacks. Or, perhaps via comic book illustrations, similar to STM.

I guess the recap idea only became necessary once S2 became its own thing, with a two-year gap after STM. But if they were both going to be released together as one long story, then there would have been no need.

[crazy_asian_man]

[quote author="atp" source="/post/180153/thread" timestamp="1587113625"Yes, that part feels just like a TV movie. Even the costumes have a cheaper look about them. And the acting is just poor too.

Personally, I don't think S2 needs the pre-credits recap. I would prefer if parts of the trial were shown within the credits flashbacks. Or, perhaps via comic book illustrations, similar to STM.

I guess the recap idea only became necessary once S2 became its own thing, with a two-year gap after STM. But if they were both going to be released together as one long story, then there would have been no need.
[/quote]

The thing that makes STM special to me is the special attention to make EVERY scene 'pop' and be EPIC as much as possible.

Part of that is the money, for sure- but the other half is definitely Donner's ambition to want to make it feel like the greatest story ever told.

I get that Lester's job was to finish it up, cheaper and faster.... but within that, there were ways to make the film still have a bit of an epic feeling or at least match more of what Donner had done to begin with.
With this thread, I figure it might be a nice place to go into micro-detail on each scene in looking back.

In regards to the credit-recap:

The Mank script is suprisingly fairly rough in determining how it starts. It doesn't start off with the comic book credits like the first one- but I would have been totally fine with - as you mentioned- comic book illustrations as a recap, in the same style as STM.

The Lester style of having the credits fly by catching up folks on Donner's STM- I hate to admit, but I actually really liked the way that was done.

The two-year gap didn't have to happen after STM- in some newspaper articles Donner mentioned the need to jump back into production as soon as possible. It would have been fantastic if - as originally reported- there was a chance for STM/SII to be released at the same time... but in hindsight, I don't see how that would have been possible... and wouldn't the box office be competing with itself? But it would have been an interesting concept. To buy a ticket for part one, then go across the street and go to buy a ticket for part two in another theatre.

In any case--- that two year gap definitely did age some actors more than others, unfortunately...

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester scene: Paris-

The opening with the DP, shirt rip, and the Paris sequence to me felt the most like Lester TRYING to at least 'ape' Donner's style with insert shots/etc.---but rather than feel as exhiliarating as, say, the helicopter sequence- it ultimately just feels kind of... slow moving and seems to take a long time for Supes to get there.

In another post, I mentioned how I thought it wouldn't have taken that much more money in theory to have had Superman fly into the middle of the terrorists, take them out- and the accident still happens with the elevator presuming that the police didn't see Supes fly in & proceeded with their plans. How much more exciting would that sequence have been?

In any case- the opening with the DP and Paris to me is the most 'Donner-like' footage, with the camera angles/whatnot.... but in the end, it's not exactly the scene that most Reeve Superman fans clamor to see over and over again.

Action scenes just didn't seem to interest Lester that much or be in his DNA. Having said that, the scenes in the beginning were the least offensive to me by Lester--- though.... did they have to reuse that background plate that used to be the aerial view of Luthor's lair?

[atp]

If the two films had been completed together as planned, I imagine they would have been released a few months apart. Like Back to the Future 2 and 3 were.

The way Lester's S2 flows, it feels like it takes place a year or two after STM.

Lois and Clark seem closer and more familiar with one another than they were in STM.

(When is the last time we see Lois and Clark in the same scene in STM? I think it's the date scene, right?)

[Kamdan]

I’ve just accepted over the years that Lester’s footage is largely inferior due to the fact that the producers wanted the sequel done as quick and fast as possible and that’s not the way Donner does things.

[atp]

Apr 17, 2020 5:23:44 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I’ve just accepted over the years that Lester’s footage is largely inferior due to the fact that the producers wanted the sequel done as quick and fast as possible and that’s not the way Donner does things.

Footage is inferior in terms of production values, but bizarrely is often superior in acting.

[Kamdan]

Footage is inferior in terms of production values, but bizarrely is often superior in acting.

Thanks to experience. Reeve definitely got better as the production went along. It always sounded like Donner wanted to reshoot some of the earlier material he did with him and judging from how Reeve handled the Donner repowering scene compared to the Lester version, it definitely would have been welcome.

Kidder, aside from facial differences, lost a lot of her spunk from the first film, but handled the emotional scenes very well. Everyone else carried their performances well for the next one. I appreciate the villains having much more personality under Lester’s direction. Donner wanted them to be more cold and threatening but it can come off dull and boring, as apparent over the years with several comic book villains that lack personality.

McClure expressed his disappointment at how Lester made them move mark to mark and didn’t let them “find things.” He was just keeping things on track and got what was needed.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 17, 2020 12:57:46 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Footage is inferior in terms of production values, but bizarrely is often superior in acting.

Thanks to experience. Reeve definitely got better as the production went along. It always sounded like Donner wanted to reshoot some of the earlier material he did with him and judging from how Reeve handled the Donner repowering scene compared to the Lester version, it definitely would have been welcome.

Kidder, aside from facial differences, lost a lot of her spunk from the first film, but handled the emotional scenes very well. Everyone else carried their performances well for the next one. I appreciate the villains having much more personality under Lester’s direction. Donner wanted them to be more cold and threatening but it can come off dull and boring, as apparent over the years with several comic book villains that lack personality.

McClure expressed his disappointment at how Lester made them move mark to mark and didn’t let them “find things.” He was just keeping things on track and got what was needed.

While I do agree that experience added to the actors feeling more comfortable and 'knowing' their characters more after two years....

I actually think it's more due to the scripts and how the characters were planned out in the Mank/Donner version that makes it feel like even better performances- here's how I saw it:

#1: Lois STAYS spunky, positive, and energetic in the Mank version.... and still getting to know Superman. The only time the innocence cracks is she gets the 'oh crap' moment and breaks down into tears when Superman is depowered and is given the evil eye by Jor-el (hinted at but not executed in the RDC).
Compared to the frustrated, fatigued, and annoyed Lois that wants a stronger committment at this point from Supes that Lester introduces.

#2: Lois and Superman only have had that first date--- it's not like she and Clark have settled into brother/sister yet with the time frame originally set from STM to SII.
Lester's rewrite suggests much more time has passed and Lois and Supes also have a more 'routine' relationship than having one movie's time frame pretty much be just one week (or so) after the first movie ends.

#3: The performances in the Lester version suggest more comfortable familiarity between Lois and Clark and Supes--- but it's a different set of circumstances. You do feel like they've gotten to know one another and are overall less naive and innocent perhaps.... but the STM/SII original version has both of them 'younger' in a way--- one big example is the 'first kiss' (not counting the death kiss at the end of STM)-
Between Supes and Lois in the FOS that was written by Mankiewicz. What's even funnier is that it bookends a 'first kiss' between Lois and Clark (prompted by Lois) in the original Honeymoon Haven sequence.

To me, the villains had a 'less is more potent' feeling to me.... the more 'funny' and comical Lester made them--- the more generic they got. The power exuded from the nonverbal performances in the one trial sequence from STM was better I think than all the rather empty lines that Lester's rewrite gave them.
The actors might have had more fun with more personality..... but to me there was far more power by having the three play it 'quiet, soft spoken and scary' to contrast with Hackman's overly verbal Lex Luthor.

Having the serious, the romantic, the scary, and the funny all wrapped into one properly would have made a magnificent superhero film--- the closest I think that captures that would be the Avengers' Endgame perhaps- where you would feel the real threat and stakes, but still have the funny without contradicting one another.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 17, 2020 5:23:44 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I’ve just accepted over the years that Lester’s footage is largely inferior due to the fact that the producers wanted the sequel done as quick and fast as possible and that’s not the way Donner does things.

I do get the producers' wanting it shot fast and less expensive.... but I think there are many cases where Lester went overboard in that - sometimes it just looked a little cheaper, but other times the choices REALLY compromised the final vision imo.... and didn't necessarily need to.

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester: Orange Juice sequence-

This part I thought was funny - but it also on deeper inspection, makes you wonder: what exactly does Kal-el want from Lois?

In one interview with either Reeve or Donner (I forget which it came from)--- Superman was the 'real' persona, whereas Clark was the 'put on' disguise that he didn't take too seriously once he got back from the FOS in STM.

In the Mank/Donner script- it's consistent with what's said in the script throughout....

In the Lester version, there's more for Reeve to play with, if Clark is a 'real' persona in itself..... but on deep inspection, what is his motivation in the first place for the interactions?

At the very least, it's fun to see Kidder and Reeve play out funny scenes 'as if' Clark were a real character on his own, but as long as the material isn't taken too seriously... if/when it is looked at it, deeper though--- what is the real purpose of the scene if Supes knows Clark is a 'mask'?

While he has the 'date' with Lois in STM--- it's never played as something that Clark would push too far on... I assume he was still getting to know his co-worker so to speak and get to know Lois.

The Orange Juice scene plays to let us get to know the back and forth with Clark and Lois, but it doesn't really advance anything character-wise--- mainly it establishes: Lois just sees Clark as a work friend... but we already kind of got that. The RDC bypasses that for the DP jump.

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester scene: Nasa portion of the moon attack-

Lester had a knack of wanting to make more of a meal from the 'person on the steet' looking at how absurd the situation was.
Donner had moments of this, but not when it counted (there's hardly any yuks when Lois' car is getting crushed).

In the Mank/Donner script, there's no quips or remarks of: 'The whole word's forgotten about them'---

There's far less, and more panic on the Mank script. It's short and to the point. Instead of the guy from Cheers and another controller dismissing it unnecessarily, in the Donner version- there's basically this before/after the final astronaut is killed:


319 INT. LEM MODULE
DAVE
(into speaker –
disturbed)
I've lost contact with Robbie and Boris,
Houston. Don't know what... His eyes widen in horror as he sees

320 EXT. SPACE THROUGH PORTHOLE - DAVE'S POV
The body of BORIS floats past the porthole into space.
CONTROLLER VOICE What is it? What is it?
The LEM suddenly begins to shake violently. DAVE is frozen in terror.
Dave? Dave!

(Then after the attack)

CONTROLLER VOICE
INT. HOUSTON CONTROL
Everybody talking at once: "Artemis! Come in Robbie? Boris? Come in! etc.


Fortunately, to me, the sequence was shot/edited as brilliant as it could be (given the tech at the time & with artistic license with English & speaking on the moon)... even moreso with the extended cut and more 'oners' by Donner.
But--- still.... what the heck, Lester? It's like a sequence from 'Jaws' softened by Lester...

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester Scene: Honeymoon Haven

The scene with the annoying bellhop, annoyed Lois and innocent Clark is funny and I thought it was shot fine- but compare it to what was originally written by Mank:;
On first glance, it looks like it's not much of a change, with Lois and Clark's lines reversed, but as the scene progresses.... it's a LOT funnier and more interesting imo with this scene- and it makes Lois far funnier and attractive this way-

342 INT. NIAGARA HONEYMOON COTTAGE - DAY
A garish honeymoon cottage, all velveteen and Formica, with heart-shaped cushions and other kinds of cloyingly distasteful romantic nonsense. A bedroom with a heart- shaped bed leads off. CLARK stands by the luggage in the center of the room, nervous, a sour expression on his face. LOIS explores the furnishings, spots a bottle of champagne on the TV with a little card, some flowers on the table, etc.

LOIS
"Complimentary champagne", a
"Complimentary corsage..."

CLARK
Oh, sure. Everything's complimentary –
until you get the bill. Of all the dumb assignments...

LOIS
Relax, Clark...

CLARK
I am perfectly relaxed...

LOIS Then unclench your fist.
(he does)
Listen. We're reporters, right? We're
here to get a story, right? So loosen up a little. Take my hand when we walk. Put your arm around me like the other husbands do. For instance, at the newlywed's dinner tonight...

CLARK
We're not going.

LOIS
Not going? That dinner could be the high
point of our whole story!
CLARK
Lois, you saw that sign in the lobby...
LOIS
"Vibrators available on request?"
CLARK (pause - shy)
The other one. The one about the... kissing contest tonight.
CLARK turns away, embarrassed. LOIS' face sets.

LOIS So that's it.
(pause) Come over here, Clark.
(pause) Kiss me.

CLARK stares back at her, deeply troubled. LOIS advances on him with a sexy look.
LOIS Come here, Clark...

CLARK (defensively)
Look, I've kissed people before, Lois...

LOIS (sultry)
I'll just bet you have. I know your type. The closet lover.

CLARK (backing up)
Closets? I don't recall...

LOIS
Strip away all that shyness, that
klutziness, that feeble indecision, and underneath beats the heart of a rampaging stud.

CLARK Lois, please...

CLARK is pinned against the wall. LOIS brings her face up close to his.

343 EXTREME CLOSE-UP - CLARK AND LOIS
LOIS' mouth opens seductively. She looks up at CLARK who stares down, paralyzed.

LOIS
Lay one on me, Clark. Give it your best
shot...

CLARK hesitates, then squeezes his eyes shut, gives LOIS a kiss. His total ineptitude is only matched by his suddenly growing enthusiasm which he desperately tries to cover up. They break. LOIS looks up at him, dazed.

LOIS
Wow...

CLARK Was I... good?

LOIS (softly)
I'd like to go into the now... get into bed... (smiles)
You know...

CLARK (trembling)
Lois... you mean...

LOIS
That's right, Clark. I think I'm getting
a headache.

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester scene:- PZ villains land/melt a snake

It's certainly not the most offensive scene by Lester, but coming on the heels of the masterful shot/edited "moon attack" by Donner- Lester doesn't waste any time trying to undermine the scarier tone of the villains in a few ways:

#1: I wasn't overly thrilled nor bummed by the strange bit of Zod landing and rising to walk on water.... but the rather un-epic way Lester had Non land and recover behind Ursa either was pretty sloppy compared to Donner's perfectionism or Lester was going for a weak ongoing joke of making Non childish.

#2: The bit with Ursa getting bit by the snake & then the unnecessary repetitive dialogue by Ursa/Zod (they just had a talk about powers on the moon, didn't they?) was all in service of a 'heat vision' gag that Lester really seemed to fall in love with for Non later on....to me, it was wasted movie time.

Would have far preferred the condensed Mank/Donner version of the villains' first appearance:

TWO TEXAS RANGERS are busily involved in a sloppy, take- out lunch: giant cheeseburgers, french fries, milkshakes, etc. Seen through the window past them: A quick flash of color, as ZOD, URSA, and NON land near the car. The RANGERS munch away, the silence punctured by squawks from their radio transmitter. RANGER #1 looks up into the rear-view mirror, suddenly stops eating, his eyes narrow curiously.
RANGER #1

Hey. J.J. ... what the heck day is
Halloween...

RANGER #2
I dunno. Sometime in October, ain't it?
RANGER #1 That's what I thought.

391 EXT. RANGER CAR - DAY
RANGER #1 gets out of the car as CAMERA PANS: coming toward him are ZOD, URSA and NON. RANGER #1 stares in disbelief.

RANGER
Hey, boy!
(ZOD stops)
You haul your booty over That jailbait and that#1
here! And bring monkey with you!

The VILLAINS approach the car. ZOD who stares coldly at him.


RANGER #1 turns to face

ZOD
What is your name?

RANGER #1
You got things kinda booty-backwards,
dontcha, son? 'Cause that's exactly what I aim to find out from you...

ZOD
I am your new ruler. You will kneel in
my presence. My name is General Zod.

RANGER #1
Yeah, well General, your name's gonna be
diddleypoop around here unless I see some I.D. ...
Kneel!

ZOD
NON growls viciously. RANGER #1 steps back, draws his gun.

RANGER #1 (to NON)
You! Get your hands on the car. Now! (to RANGER #2)
J.J. - Call for another unit. (to NON)
Move your booty!

RANGER #2 reaches for the transmitter. NON looks at ZOD, who nods. NON swings around, puts his hands on top of the car, pushes down softly. He flattens it like a pancake, with RANGER #2 still inside. RANGER #1 backs up in terror holding his gun, as URSA advances on him with a cruel smile.

URSA
You will not die yet. I will keep you
alive to play with...

RANGER #1
Listen, lady, I never shot a woman in my
life, but so help me...

URSA reaches out for the gun. RANGER #1 fires, pumping three bullets into her harmlessly. URSA smiles, closes her hand around the gun as RANGER #1 squeezes off two more shots into her palm. She crushes the gun like a wad of paper. RANGER #1 takes a roundhouse swing at her. URSA catches his wrist in mid-air, breaks it with a "snap" dropping him to his knees. ZOD smiles thinly, advances, as URSA reaches for RANGER #1'S belt buckle.
Wait!

ZOD
(to RANGER #1)
Where was he calling? Who is your
superior?

RANGER (terrified) Cap'n... Cap'n Moss of the Texas Rangers...
#1


ZOD
And who is his superior?

RANGER #1
Attorney-General Frieson of the State of
Texas...

ZOD
(to himself)
Another General... and who is his superior?

RANGER #1 The Governor...
ZOD And his superior?

RANGER #1
He don't rightly have one, but... well,
the President of the United States, I guess. In Washington, D.C. and then there's nobody, General. I swear. I mean that's about as high as a man can get.

ZOD
Then that is the man I want to see.

ZOD smiles, nods to URSA. She advances on the screaming RANGER with sadistic enthusiasm as NON roars in triumph.

With that, three scenes were condensed---- and there was no need for the silliness with the Houston town and money could have been saved from the sequences there for the Washington monument sequence instead. And, it's cleaner storywise.

[atp]

It feels like Ursa stayed the most consistent between the Donner and Lester scenes.

Lester turned Zod into an over-the-top cartoon idiot. And turned Non into s childlike buffoon.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 20, 2020 1:25:44 GMT -5 atp said:

It feels like Ursa stayed the most consistent between the Donner and Lester scenes.

Lester turned Zod into an over-the-top cartoon idiot. And turned Non into s childlike buffoon.

True! Out of the three villains, I agree.... but in looking at just the Donner shot footage--- I found it interesting how Donner had the actors play AGAINST a caricature- rather than loud (except when losing it), Zod is quiet and soft-spoken (even scarier), Ursa never has a giant grin like the Lester version, but has this sadistic glee in her eyes never showing her teeth, and Non is scary as heck--- definitely NOT childlike but a real threat.

Oh well....

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester: - Pink Bear reveal

This wasn't shot badly- and the performances are strong- this is easily one of Lester's strongest scenes- but the main thing that changes is that in looking at the WHOLE arc for Lois in the Mank script--- Lois is spunky and confident throughout--- UNTIL the depowering.

Lester's arc for Lois had her constantly pining and disappointed that she wasn't with Supes from the get-go for the most part.... sure, it works on its own, but.... it is a different journey under the surface.

In the Donner/Mank version, it's like both Supes and Lois are innocent up until that moment with the depowering.... and to me it read like a much stronger 'fall' and a far bigger mistake when the story was planned that way.

[Metallo]

Apr 17, 2020 6:11:40 GMT -5 atp said:

Apr 17, 2020 5:23:44 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I’ve just accepted over the years that Lester’s footage is largely inferior due to the fact that the producers wanted the sequel done as quick and fast as possible and that’s not the way Donner does things.

Footage is inferior in terms of production values, but bizarrely is often superior in acting.

I actually also prefer some of the editing choices for Donners footage in Lester’s film over the Donner cut. I prefer the way the black box discussion in prison in II is handled in the Lester version. Going to the next scene after Luthor said “and his secret will give me superman” was so much better and more dramatic than the bedwetter nonsense.

There’s also the “Freedom of the press” line. Bad call in the Donner cut.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 21, 2020 10:50:50 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Apr 17, 2020 6:11:40 GMT -5 atp said:

Footage is inferior in terms of production values, but bizarrely is often superior in acting.

I actually also prefer some of the editing choices for Donners footage in Lester’s film over the Donner cut. I prefer the way the black box discussion in prison in II is handled in the Lester version. Going to the next scene after Luthor said “and his secret will give me superman” was so much better and more dramatic than the bedwetter nonsense.

There’s also the “Freedom of the press” line. Bad call in the Donner cut.

Good points. The 'freedom of the press' actually oddly (sadly) reasonates more now than then- but that was the original line in the script, so... oh well. The 'would you care to step outside'? is definitely a far stronger line and the readjusted angle (again, sad we weren't able to see other takes by Donner)- by Lester allows us to see a tinge of anger by Supes that's not apparent by the RDC with the angle further away...

Wouldn't it have been awesome if Stuart Baird was willing to finish up the RDC? He might have had the emotional distance to recut the Lester stuff, too.

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester scenes:

- PZ villains meet Sheriff/get siren
- PZ villains go into a bar/levitate citizens
- PZ villains meet a very small army

I think these scenes really show where Lester's heart was... the Sheriff and the Deputy--- invented characters that had nothing to do with the Mank script.
If this were a separate movie with a separate agends, I really wouldn't have any real problem with it....

But- the costs involved with this I'd argue took away from what could have been shot later on with the Metro battle as written in the Mank script.

While you see some of the money in these scenes- compare the filmmaking of the action scenes here versus the action sequence inside of the White house Donner sequence.

These scenes take a detour into what Lester really enjoyed- making broad comedy bits. Even the costly stunts and effects are mostly shot in a way that takes away from the scale.

In the White house army bit, almost every soldier has a medium closeup and a second to really react as if a real situation and from their point of view. The action bits by Lester always leaned back to comedy, outside of the really misguided (deleted) scene where
Non kills the kid on the horse.

If only a different director had taken over with less ego.... perhaps we would have gotten something perhaps cheaper but also stuck closer to the Mank/Donner script...

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester scenes: -
- Lois/Supes FOS romance/flowers
- Supe/Lois/mom talk

Arguably, these were perhaps some of Lester's stronger scenes... but... since this is about micro-bones to pick & credit where credit is due...

* First- I'll have to admit that some of this was shot really nicely- but the writing is definitely schizophrenic when it comes to Clark/Supes/Lois-

Compare the two conversations:
Donner's version-- is no doubt sentimental- we knew that from his 'can you read my mind' sequence in STM & it's all over most of his films-

SUPERMAN and LOIS recline against the side of a comfortable upper nook of the Fortress, his arm encircling her. A short distance away: the empty soufflé dish, two plates and glasses, and the empty bottle of wine. They lie back, watch the projections on an opposite wall. The suggested images of JOR-EL and LARA appear through the map in pulsating strengths, first growing stronger, then disappearing again as LOIS watches, fascinated.

SUPERMAN
That's my father, Jor-El... and my
mother, my... real mother. Her name was Lara... and that's me... as a baby...

The images fade away. SUPERMAN smiles a bit self- consciously, never having revealed any of this to anyone before.

LOIS
It's amazing. I never really thought of
you as having a family like... everyone else. I mean you just sort of... were, you know? Like a fact. A fact without a mother, or a father...

SUPERMAN draws LOIS closer, looks at her seriously.

SUPERMAN
There were so many times I wanted to
tell you. Sitting next to you as Clark, smiling shyly, listening to you talk about Superman, and how much you... loved him...

He stops, embarrassed, realizing how much he's inadvertently eavesdropped on her during his life as CLARK. LOIS smiles nicely.

LOIS
That's all right. I suppose it is a
little late in the game for me to play hard to get.

SUPERMAN looks deeply into her eyes.

SUPERMAN
It's all real now, Lois - I'm real – and
I love you.

SUPERMAN kisses her passionately, lowers to the floor,
half on
top of her. She looks up at him dreamily.

Compared to Lester's dialogue:


We can tell from their manner that they have been talking seriously for some time.

LOIS
It must be tough, having to be Clark
Kent.

SUPERMAN
Oh no.
(very honestly)
I really like it sometimes.
(smiles)
And if it weren't for him, I wouldn't
have met you.

LOIS
But him is you.
(laughing)
Now I'm confused.

She rises, still holding his hand, smiling down at him.

LOIS
Tell you what, you just keep thinking
about that while I . . .
(not really kidding)
. . . slip into something more comfortable.

There must have been some improvs from Reeve as he says in the theatrical, how he 'sometimes makes a fool out of himself- and isn't confused about who he is'- but it's not horrible, but the Donner version is a bit clearer and cuts a bit deeper.
The flowers sequence supposedly was intended to have Superman find this rare flower for Lois- and while I admire that they got a small film crew and Reeve to go all the way to the location.... why did it have to be shot so cheaply? If you're going to use an exotic location, why not make it look epic while there? Again, not the worst thing ever done, but certainly underwhelming.

[Kamdan]

It makes me more and more disappointed that it wasn’t true that Donner filmed all of the material in the Fortress.

[crazy_asian_man]

Apr 23, 2020 8:50:08 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

It makes me more and more disappointed that it wasn’t true that Donner filmed all of the material in the Fortress.

I also was really looking forward to seeing some of these other scenes with Donner-directed Lois & Supes--- but I read somewhere later that the Hackman and Jor-el stuff were the main things filmed, and that they felt like it was easy enough to get Reeve and Kidder back anytime.... unfortunately didn't work out that way....

[crazy_asian_man]

Lester: - Supes depowered

This is a weird one to compare to the RDC--- mainly because:
(1) The RDC had no Lois closeup reactions shots
(2) We know from the documentary that Donner did want something visual to happen from Supes' point of view with the kaleidoscope experiment--- but hadn't shot or figured it out before Donner left.
(3) It didn't have Reeve closeup shots either, it seemed!

So...
It's no wonder the lester version works far better. It had those advantages.

While part of me screamed "CHEAP!!!" when seeing the Superman (outtake?) footage for the trial by fire sequence, it works as part of that montage to give an effect that something major happened-
I guess the plexiglass redesign lets you see Reeve's reaction better--- but I can get why Donner wanted his face a bit obscured both in depower/repower...

The 'skeleton' Superman effect was weird--- and I can't argue that the scene has a 'punch' that the incomplete Donner version doesn't have- and there are nice shots- but.... on paper that sequence in the Mank script was more intense and powerful. Impossible to have that power if you don't have the closeups necessary. Oh well.