Looking at the bright side of each Superman project....

[crazy_asian_man]

With so much darkness and frustration, thought it good to look at the bright side of things-

I admit I haven't seen ALL of the episodes of the tv shows-
But here are some highlights of each show and each of the 'lesser' movies, even the ones that weren't that great- would love to hear other great 'bits' or moments that I might not have mentioned:

* Adventures of Superman:
(With all due respect to the budget and fx tech and that it was the first tv show)
The pilot episode I thought was great as a kid and as an adult- but it's hard not to get disappointed when the stories seem so mundane and even as a kid, the most exciting part was the flying scenes or if Superman broke through a wall or jumped out a window.
I own some of the other seasons, but I admit I haven't really even been able to sit through season 1... any ones reccomended outside of the pilot that was above & beyond?

* SIII:
Basically Reeve's presence in the costume, extremely lovely Annette O'toole as Lana (although her talents severely underused by the script) & if it were a tv special, I guess it's not that bad as superficial entertainment- though, to follow STM & SII as a big budget blockbuster.... well, staying positive- at least it's better than no third Reeve Superman film.

* SIV:
It's a nice fan film and the heart was in the right place. It shows what CAN'T be done with a lower budget nor time. It does make you appreciate STM even more as a giant event... but I still see the heart and intent when I watch this, and it's a good intent.

* LOIS AND CLARK:
Suprisingly, with no Reeve Superman film on the horizon, I was prepared to hate this show--- and what the heck was the title about?
To its credit, I actually felt that the Pilot episode thoroughly charmed me and embraced the core of what I thought a Superman tv show could be about: its heart and character.
The first season is its best, with some variations to the comic source- but I did find it entertaining and enough on the right track that it offered something fresh without going too crazy.

The following seasons went off track quite a bit- but there were moments here and there. At times it was TOO 'soft' (interesting as Smallville often got too dark without real substance)- but the final season I think started to get back on track, but, of course, by then, too many viewers were burned with a really bad plotline I believe in season 2 or 3 and never recovered - or if it did - too little, too late. Still, season 4 has some interesting moments.

* SMALLVILLE:
I think the pilot is great- young Tom Welling to me looks like a perfect Superboy & not that hard a transition to see this Clark becoming Reeve-Superman. Rosenbaum is brilliant. There are sprinkles of great moments through the series- sadly handcuffed or undone by memory wipes or the Clana romance---- but it's one of those series that you kind of wish were one big miniseries for ONE season, carefully told, rather than one that oftentimes feels like continuing for the sake of continuing. However, Erica Durance was fantastic as Lois & the last two seasons with the inclusion of Anne Coffel Saunders as writer really made the material extremely watchable imo. There's good stuff in the series.... but I don't know if it was because it had to deal with constraints by DC or if the writing level just wasn't always the equal of - say - a Joss Whedon series. There are those episodes and great bits here and there, but rarely did a season become a 'must watch' for me after season 1.... until 9 and 10.

* MAN oF STEEL:
The trailer is fantastic, I think it's got a great look and arguably there's a ton of great fan music videos that could be cut from all the visuals. It's a shame that David Goyer (who admitted he was wrong to write Superman in an interview years before) wasn't balanced out with a director who was more in line with what the heart of what we feel Superman is. I do think Zack Snyder was passionate about the character and the film, but when he gets glee out of shooting Jimmy Olsen's character in the head, and brags about it, something really is not right. If a Joss Whedon or Chris Nolan stepped in before the final cut, I wonder if the ship would have been rebalanced in the right direction.... Why couldn't they have hired Goyer and Snyder for Green Lantern instead or another character? The Batman fight sequence in BvS is fantastic, I'll give Snyder that...

* JUSTICE LEAGUE:
It's very watchable and fascinating with the Joss Whedon fix-it.... but one can never know just how hamstrung Whedon was with the footage he was required to use, nor how much was reshot. On the plus side, there are neat bits in it (the Superman 'back from the dead' battle is one of the great scenes imo)- but even with the HBO max expanded tv show coming out - one still wonders how the rough cut still looked compared to the Whedon re-do.

Oddly, I got MUCH more joy and excitement out of "Crisis On Infinite Earths" than I did out of Justice League. What's even odder is that it still seems like WB tv is just a blip (if that) to the WB movie department... too bad, tv did a lot of good things here and there that the movie studio could learn from...

[Metallo]

Great topic, CAM. I also want to see your thoughts in Superboy, Supergirl the movie, Supergirl the series, and BvS now now now! Or at least as soon as possible 😉

As far as Crisis vs Justice League I think despite its flaws Crisis came closer to fulfilling its potential and was something that we’d never really seen tried before. With Justice League it came off as a poor mans Avengers. Even though I found it mildly entertaining...been there done that.

Back to the topic...

Superman III: Beyond the great Clark Kent vs Superman stuff the scenes with Lana are wonderful and it’s the first time we really get to see Clark, the guy who grew up in Smallville, humanized as an adult and not just Kal-El. Ross Webster was the clearly one of the prototypes for the post crisis take on Luthor.

Supergirl 84: Slater is of course perfect but it also has some of the best most consistent effects in the series. This was the effects team at the top of their game after everything they learned on the previous films. Same for the flying/wire team. It was also great to see the world expanded and to get an outside perspective on Superman in that world. The film treated him as the icon he deserved to be seen as even if he wasn’t in it. It was also nice that they expanded Jimmy Olsens character a little bit. Jerry Goldsmiths score is quite good too.

Superman IV: A poor film but a decent character arc for Superman is hidden behind all the bad effects and writing. It’s also a much more clear one than we got in later films. I liked that we once again got to see Clark do more than just bumble around. Hackman is delightful and makes any scene he’s in worth watching. I also appreciate they thought of a grander comic book scale even if they couldn’t achieve it. As far as set pieces, conceptually speaking, the movie was 20 years ahead of its time. Problem was they bit off waaaay more than they could chew.

Superboy: The first Superman show and one of the first comic book shows to embrace so much more of the comic book world from specific stories to characters. As a comic book fan it was so exciting to see them delve deep into supervillains and concepts like alternate dimensions which were staples of the source material. Before Injustice and the DCAU gave us evil world conquering fascist Superman Superboy did it fist.

Lois & Clark: The show has to be given credit for being the first show to make Clark Kent a relatable everyman on screen. Sure George Reeves gave us more confident Clark but with this Clark we got to go deeper into his life goals and ambitions and personal quirks. I don’t think Cain and Hatchers raw on screen chemistry has been matched since. It’s also the first superhero show to mix relationships and superheroics with such regularity. If Smallville is the father of the CW/Arrowverse approach to these kinds of shows L&C is the grandfather. It paved the way for so much of what they’re doing now...for better or for worse.

Smallville: Gets some credit for being the first show to delve so deeply into Clark’s origins and when it was good it was really quite endearing. It also gets credit for being the first show to do so much to successfully build a DC on screen universe beyond just the Superman related characters.

Superman Returns: First off it was such a wonderful feeling to hear THAT music in a movie theater again when I never ever thought I would. It was the first time we really got to see Superman’s world and abilities realized on the big screen with a big budget and modern effects. They missed some opportunities and made some poor choices with some things like the flying but when I first saw the plane rescue I was blown away.

Superman Returns also has to be recognized as the first live action production to move the character forward in certain ways. Before the comics and The Arrowverse made Superman a father and gave us a super son SR did it first. It normalized the idea in most people’s minds and took the hit for shaking up what people are used to. You could argue those later productions handled it better but some people were turned off by the very idea of Superman having a family and settling into some form of domestic life.

MOS: It’s the first live action production to really get across the point that Superman made in JLU of feeling like he was living in a world of paper or cardboard and always holding back. In this movie they didn’t hold back and we finally got to see the spectacle of two Kryptonians with incredible power like that going head to head.

BVS: It was cool to see a serious comic book style Batman finally realized on the big screen. You have to go all the way back to the West series to see anything as comic bookish with Batman. It was also cool to finally see big three on screen together for the first time in live action. It’s just a shame it was in such a crappy film.

JL: Much like BVS it was awesome to see the JL finally assemble on the big screen after dreaming of it my entire life. It was like watching a multi million dollar film version of the Super Powers cartoon.

CW’s Supergirl: It’s been cool to finally see certain Superman stories and characters played out on modern television with the current level of tv special effects. It’s the first time we’ve see certain things done in a Superman related tv show in nearly 30 years. It’s also the first Superman related show to really get the benefit of a true expanded/shared universe. Yeah Smallville used other DC characters but in Supergirl those characters have just as much on screen development as she does so it makes those crossovers seem like a much bigger deal.

When she first met The Flash it was something people really wanted to see and it didn’t disappoint. We also get to see these friendships between heroes develop over the long term with more screen time. The crossovers in generel and replicating the mega events from the comics have been fun to watch.

[crazy_asian_man]

Great post, Metallo!

I was probably wrong to leave out the others, but happy to go back to now-
I mainly was calling attention to the more neglected ones on this forum... but that's cool- There's always time to catchup!

* Superboy season 1 - even Ilya Salkind agrees was terrible!
From the ground up- I never felt that the actor was right for Superboy nor Superman in season 1, and the concept of a 'college Luthor' was so off, I mainly felt like I was just waiting for the rare flying scenes that would inevitably show up.

* Superboy season 2-4 - Wow! Starting with Christopher Gerard- who was a perfect Superboy (and I was fine if we followed him to be Reeve's successor even when he got older) physically and did give off the right vibe.... and, years later- he seemed just as passionate about the character as others have been!

The writing was more comic book like, Stacey Haiduck was the perfect 'carryover' actor (who shared some interesting bits in an interview that after season 1 - NOT to date people you work with just for professionalism's sake- not a bad idea per se)--- the budget still looks terrible compared to today's CW- but for its time and compared to season 1, it was spectacular.

Before "Supergirl", arguably this was more in line with the free-wheeling adventures of the Superboy comic --- fast, energetic, serious enough (unlike Lois & Clark which struggled with being too lightweight often times) and didn't get overwhelmed with the teen romance (Smallville) in the series. (Though it probably had room to go a bit deeper if it wanted to)

Pity there was no season 5, but glad that we have access to seasons 2-4 as physical media.
It is also a bit sad that Christopher Gerard wasn't included in the Crisis - he was willing and able to put on the costume- and seemed to consider it an honor rather than an embarrassment. (Tom.... you seem like a nice dude, but...yeah, this is calling you out on that.)

SUPERGIRL:
Helen Slater in the original costume (Thank Zod someone had the bright idea NOT to go with tthe headband and awful costume that they forced DC to switch to), Jerry Goldsmith's wonderful score, GORGEOUS cinematography, some cool scenes on Argo City, and those wonderful wonderful flying scenes... and- Helen Slater in costume as Supergirl and that wonderful performance.

The story is horrible- and it's a pity that when Chris Reeve pulled out of the movie, that they didn't hire William Goldsman, Mario Puzo, or any superior screenwriter to fix that gap. It's great that Reeve at least allowed his picture on the poster--- and there is that nice moment with Slater and the image of Superman.... but, on the positive side- there are those flying scenes and Slater in the original costume.

Benoist is great in her version of the (far better written) tv show, but Slater is iconic.

BVS:
It's interesting to see semi-course correction--- the movie is far better imo than MOS because it's Batman's story- rather than Superman's. It might have been even more interesting if they took Joseph Gordon Levitt's Robin-as-Batman and made it a 'sequel' to TDKR rather than reboot with Ben Affleck...

But- Ben Affleck worked out much better (overall) than I was expecting, maybe because of the voiceover. I can buy him as Batman, but with his Bruce Wayne, I still see Ben Affleck... but his heart seemed in the right place.

I totally agree that a big plus is seeing Wonder Woman on the big screen (and sort of in the classic suit enough)- and the trio on screen. I still remember the cheers in the audience when she makes her debut.

LOIS & CLARK follow-up:
I agree that they actually did dive into Clark as a character a touch deeper than some of the other shows- Smallville did it in a superficial way- (Not helped by its timeline)- Dean Cain actually said he had come to Hollywood to be a screenwriter- it might have been interesting had they let him be more involved in the writing end, based on a couple of his commentaries...

SMALLVILLE follow-up:
I agree... when Smallville had a good episode--- it REALLY was great. A better plan, a limited series with more time and the whole show could have been fantastic, rather than going on, and on, and on....

SUPERMAN RETURNS:
I feel like I always tout the parts I love about it that I talk too much about it-
While it has its flaws (not enough Superheroics, having him just carry things was pretty weak and underwhelming and Luthor's bizzarro return to real estate should have been replaced by something more fascinating and scary like Thanos' plan in Avengers)...

The AMBITION to continue Donner's Superman (rather than supplant it with a 'better' origin)- and go PAST it all in one movie - is really amazing in what it did. How often have we ever seen one talented director want to embrace and expand on what a first talented director did?

The only one that comes to mind is "Alien" and "Aliens" with Ridley Scott and James Cameron. The second time might be Lucas' original Star Wars & Irvin Kershner's Empire- but then again that's kind of a different animal...

And finding Routh as the successor for Superman is like one in a million. So glad that at least we got to see him play him again in Crisis.

MOS follow-up:
There were some great ideas in it, like almost all of Goyer's scripts that I've seen translated.... but there were also some really horrible ones that should never been close to a Superman project. Again, waiting for someone to make a great fan cut of it...

JL follow-up:
Joss Whedon did what seems like a good job with it.... but since it's not from 'the ground-up' it's hard to really be too judgmental on it. But it is a bit of a chore to stick it back into the dvd machine now and then-

CW's SUPERGIRL:
While there are still elements that make me groan (Jimmy Olsen is not a hunk- sorry!!!)- they didn't shy away from the costume & the approach is pretty clever. I totally agree on the crossovers- I still feel that Justin Hartley should have been Green Arrow, but outside of that, the really smart thing that the Berlianti-verse has done is knowing the inherently fun and joyful moments that should be touched upon when the characters meet (I notice Geoff Johns did this at first with his comics, I wouldn't be suprised if that had an influence as well)-and still be truthful to the universe.

Also- as an aside, I chatted with a semi-pro cosplayer at a convention who said one of her friends actually were contacted by the Berlianti office years ago worked or got in touch with the better cosplayers in research so that the costumes matched closer to the comics. I don't know the accuracy of that story- but- in looking at the results, Berlianti's costumes in their shows definitely look far more faithful (outside of the awful Superman cape clasps) to their comic book counterparts than the movies' approach- (Even the Kingdom come superman suit looked superior to the Superman returns suit, which wasn't too bad but had too small an 's' and dull colors).

It'll be interesting to see where the Berliantiverse goes from here.

Arrow is done... Flash and Supergirl are entering later seasons.... Crisis is done---
I actually can't even catch up with one series- so I can't really say that I think any of the series should go to ten years, but- then again- there are other DC characters that I do think that would make good series, too... if the audiences are still hungry for it...

[Metallo]

Even though the landscape is changing and ratings are going down across the board for everything I could see Flash going ten seasons. It’s the most popular of all the ARROWVERSE shows and the character has the most broad appeal. It just depends on if Gustin gets what he wants in negotiations and sticks with the show. I think he wants to as a fan but he knows that’s a lot of hours and missed opportunities and he wants to get what he thinks he’s worth. Steady work is always good for any actor but being the lead of a show like that is brutal hours.

When it comes to the costumes I do think they've learned and improved them all compared to the early episodes of all their shows. Supergirl in particular has gotten much better. I think it's partly from deciding which companies to go with later. I know certain suits were made by iron head studios and that's why they look so good. They've made improvements with actors comfort in mind and gone for a slightly different design aesthetic overall.

As far as using Blake as Batman in a follow up in the DCEU that was never option. Nolan has been pretty clear he wants his movies to be stand alone and separate from their shared universe and I doubt he'd want anyone else continuing any part of his universe unless it was someone he really trusted and even then it probably wouldn't connect to something someone else started. Plus I think WB was adamant on going with Bruce Wayne for such a big first encounter. The general audience knows Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne and WB would want it to be the versions with the most recognition so that the film had the most impact.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 3, 2020 20:38:18 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Even though the landscape is changing and ratings are going down across the board for everything I could see Flash going ten seasons. It’s the most popular of all the ARROWVERSE shows and the character has the most broad appeal. It just depends on if Gustin gets what he wants in negotiations and sticks with the show. I think he wants to as a fan but he knows that’s a lot of hours and missed opportunities and he wants to get what he thinks he’s worth. Steady work is always good for any actor but being the lead of a show like that is brutal hours.

When it comes to the costumes I do think they've learned and improved them all compared to the early episodes of all their shows. Supergirl in particular has gotten much better. I think it's partly from deciding which companies to go with later. I know certain suits were made by iron head studios and that's why they look so good. They've made improvements with actors comfort in mind and gone for a slightly different design aesthetic overall.

As far as using Blake as Batman in a follow up in the DCEU that was never option. Nolan has been pretty clear he wants his movies to be stand alone and separate from their shared universe and I doubt he'd want anyone else continuing any part of his universe unless it was someone he really trusted and even then it probably wouldn't connect to something someone else started. Plus I think WB was adamant on going with Bruce Wayne for such a big first encounter. The general audience knows Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne and WB would want it to be the versions with the most recognition so that the film had the most impact.

I don't know if its feasible, but how about this:
Given what Steven Amell has said about how the hours are crazy as a lead + the difficulties in negotiating for more money + lost opportunities- why not make the shows more ensembles (like Star Trek)--- and give the leads more days off & reshape stories (if the supporting characters warrant it)- so that they don't have to be around as much?

Again- I don't know enough about hte realities of tv filming/scripting/producing to know how realistic this is.... but from what I've seen of the shows, sometimes I don't know if I need to see the main character in every scene of every episode. Some of the best shows split their time with the lead- TNG, Angel, and others made sure that the main ensemble was interesting (enough) to sometimes have an episode rotate to them.

Plus, sometimes it made the show better. As an example, the best Batman movie imo was The Dark Knight- though Batman's actual screentime might not be nearly as much as one might think!