Should there be another reboot or move forward?

[crazy_asian_man]

Should there be another reboot or move forward?

Thoughts?
I do think it odd that WB wants/wanted to move forward with a tv show, but keep Cavill for the movies (but I'm assuming in the Sam Jackson/Nick Fury role).

Personally....
I don't know if the timing is right for a reboot origin story right now.
I do think fixing up SII with Deepfake tech and CGI could be the way to go to restoring the Donner scenes as scripted- (maybe a scene or two reshot with using actors to double in- like Rogue One, but better) and it would be cheaper than years ago I think.

[Metallo]

Reboot. Hard reboot at that. I’d say the timing is just about right with us at the start of a new decade. We’re nearly 8 years on from MOS, 5 from BvS, and JL has become the cinematic equivalent of a choose your own adventure book. There’s so much baggage and many questions on what’s going to happen going forward. If they’re going to try again I think it’s best to start fresh without any creative hang ups or limitations. The Snyder cut of Justice League also feels like it’s dealing with unfinished business and in a way closing the door on the Snyder era.

Cavill is pushing 40. He’s older now than Reeve, Cain, Christopher, and Welling when they LEFT the role. He’s never been good enough that he’s not replaceable. I mean...Christ they got a stand in with his head out of frame to play Superman in Shazam and the world didn’t end. Shows how much they feel they NEED Cavill doesn’t it?

The Snyderverse is such a mixed bag and they’re still struggling with getting some consistent momentum after the reigns to the DCEU were taken away. It’s like watching a drunk navigate through the day with a hangover. WW84 and Birds of Prey have been divisive at best among audiences. Their direction is already a mishmash of stand alones and shared universe with the shared universe on the ropes.

Who knows how The Flash will turn out. It’s been experiencing Superman Lives levels of development heII. Who knows how Black Adam will turn out. I’ve got faith in Gunns suicide squad movie but that’s just one film and it doesn’t seem too fussed with perfectly connecting to the previous suicide squad movie. I’d finish off the Wonder Woman franchise with one more film and see what happens with Aquaman 2 and Shazam 2. If those films don’t deliver just reboot the entire thing.

If The Batman does well it’s just one more reason to consider trying to reboot Superman with a clean slate too. If they want to keep a separate Superman for the DCEU team up films (if the DCEU is even viable enough to continue on) fine but a solo Superman franchise should start with a reboot regardless. There’s too much creative potential not to.

[dejan]

Excellent post Metallo

Just had a bit of fun breaking down some rough stats.......... regarding cinematic history when it comes to individual representations regarding one unique character in super hero lore:

Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart(17 years) and Ian MaKellen(14 years) lead the pack by some distance.

But putting aside the X Men franchise which has undergone several "mutations!" of it's own to sustain the presence of the above aforementioned actors.......

Every one else I can think of have  not lasted  nearly as long.

Downey Jr had 11 years as Iron Man.....but Iron Man 3 wrapped up just 5 years of unique Downey IM movies.
Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth would have roughly 7 years in stand alone Cap America and Thor flicks respectively.

Maguire's  Spiderman lasted 5 years
Garfield's Spidey lasted 2 years
Bale's Batman lasted 7 years
Keaton's Batman lasted 3 years
Norton's & Banna's Hulk and Slater's Supergirl never got the chance to extend their stays.
Gadot's Wonder Woman is entering it's 5th year
Snipe's Blade had 6 years.
Affleck lasted barely more than a year as Batman

Amazingly Reeve had 9 years as Superman.....although on a personal level SIV does not exist!(sorry it's still the most deluding cinematic experience I have ever had)....so for me, Reeve was Supes for 5 years!(ok I am just kidding!).

The point I am making is that Cavill is entering his 8th year - should he be allowed to continue(and he was hired nearly 10 years ago!).

He has had his shot as  far as I am personally concerned(granted I am a nobody!).
IMHO it's time to pass that torch onwards and hopefully upwards!.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 19, 2021 15:29:45 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Reboot. Hard reboot at that. I’d say the timing is just about right with us at the start of a new decade. We’re nearly 8 years on from MOS, 5 from BvS, and JL has become the cinematic equivalent of a choose your own adventure book. There’s so much baggage and many questions on what’s going to happen going forward. If they’re going to try again I think it’s best to start fresh without any creative hang ups or limitations. The Snyder cut of Justice League also feels like it’s dealing with unfinished business and in a way closing the door on the Snyder era.

Cavill is pushing 40. He’s older now than Reeve, Cain, Christopher, and Welling when they LEFT the role. He’s never been good enough that he’s not replaceable. I mean...Christ they got a stand in with his head out of frame to play Superman in Shazam and the world didn’t end. Shows how much they feel they NEED Cavill doesn’t it?

The Snyderverse is such a mixed bag and they’re still struggling with getting some consistent momentum after the reigns to the DCEU were taken away. It’s like watching a drunk navigate through the day with a hangover. WW84 and Birds of Prey have been divisive at best among audiences. Their direction is already a mishmash of stand alones and shared universe with the shared universe on the ropes.

Who knows how The Flash will turn out. It’s been experiencing Superman Lives levels of development heII. Who knows how Black Adam will turn out. I’ve got faith in Gunns suicide squad movie but that’s just one film and it doesn’t seem too fussed with perfectly connecting to the previous suicide squad movie. I’d finish off the Wonder Woman franchise with one more film and see what happens with Aquaman 2 and Shazam 2. If those films don’t deliver just reboot the entire thing.

If The Batman does well it’s just one more reason to consider trying to reboot Superman with a clean slate too. If they want to keep a separate Superman for the DCEU team up films (if the DCEU is even viable enough to continue on) fine but a solo Superman franchise should start with a reboot regardless. There’s too much creative potential not to.

If there is a reboot.... it may sound odd, but I'd prefer it be done Mandellorian style- cheaper budget (but doesn't look that way) and done as a extremely quality controlled series to go for five seasons preplanned--- Game of Thrones for most of its run had quality control by having the source material as a guideline ahead of time.... why can't a Superman series?

There is the Tyler tv show, but that's more of an Elseworlds version with the two grown sons....

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 19, 2021 16:03:52 GMT -5 dejan said:

Excellent post Metallo

Just had a bit of fun breaking down some rough stats.......... regarding cinematic history when it comes to individual representations regarding one unique character in super hero lore:

Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart(17 years) and Ian MaKellen(14 years) lead the pack by some distance.

But putting aside the X Men franchise which has undergone several "mutations!" of it's own to sustain the presence of the above aforementioned actors.......

Every one else I can think of have  not lasted  nearly as long.

Downey Jr had 11 years as Iron Man.....but Iron Man 3 wrapped up just 5 years of unique Downey IM movies.
Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth would have roughly 7 years in stand alone Cap America and Thor flicks respectively.

Maguire's  Spiderman lasted 5 years
Garfield's Spidey lasted 2 years
Bale's Batman lasted 7 years
Keaton's Batman lasted 3 years
Norton's & Banna's Hulk and Slater's Supergirl never got the chance to extend their stays.
Gadot's Wonder Woman is entering it's 5th year
Snipe's Blade had 6 years.
Affleck lasted barely more than a year as Batman

Amazingly Reeve had 9 years as Superman.....although on a personal level SIV does not exist!(sorry it's still the most deluding cinematic experience I have ever had)....so for me, Reeve was Supes for 5 years!(ok I am just kidding!).

The point I am making is that Cavill is entering his 8th year - should he be allowed to continue(and he was hired nearly 10 years ago!).

He has had his shot as  far as I am personally concerned(granted I am a nobody!).
IMHO it's time to pass that torch onwards and hopefully upwards!.

Great post--- it's amazing that there are THAT many years that Jackman has played Wolverine! Wow.

The X-men series is amazing in how it's been able to float back up (though also sink down) for so many films!

Recently a relative was going on about how great Grey's Anatomy was... and that was 16 seasons!

Can you imagine a planned out Superman tv show with a budget going that long? Every great story arc in the comics I think could finally be fleshed out if something like that were to happen- while Supergirl has hit some of the Superman lore elements, it'd be nice to have a high quality 'canon' Superman live action that everyone would agree on to match the Donner/Reeve films.

[Metallo]

Jan 19, 2021 16:03:52 GMT -5 dejan said:

Excellent post Metallo

Just had a bit of fun breaking down some rough stats.......... regarding cinematic history when it comes to individual representations regarding one unique character in super hero lore:

Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart(17 years) and Ian MaKellen(14 years) lead the pack by some distance.

But putting aside the X Men franchise which has undergone several "mutations!" of it's own to sustain the presence of the above aforementioned actors.......

Every one else I can think of have  not lasted  nearly as long.

Downey Jr had 11 years as Iron Man.....but Iron Man 3 wrapped up just 5 years of unique Downey IM movies.
Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth would have roughly 7 years in stand alone Cap America and Thor flicks respectively.

Maguire's  Spiderman lasted 5 years
Garfield's Spidey lasted 2 years
Bale's Batman lasted 7 years
Keaton's Batman lasted 3 years
Norton's & Banna's Hulk and Slater's Supergirl never got the chance to extend their stays.
Gadot's Wonder Woman is entering it's 5th year
Snipe's Blade had 6 years.
Affleck lasted barely more than a year as Batman

Amazingly Reeve had 9 years as Superman.....although on a personal level SIV does not exist!(sorry it's still the most deluding cinematic experience I have ever had)....so for me, Reeve was Supes for 5 years!(ok I am just kidding!).

The point I am making is that Cavill is entering his 8th year - should he be allowed to continue(and he was hired nearly 10 years ago!).

He has had his shot as  far as I am personally concerned(granted I am a nobody!).
IMHO it's time to pass that torch onwards and hopefully upwards!.

It’s always interesting to see stats like that because it really puts things in perspective. Cavill’s had a normal run for this kind of role. He got three movies. Normal and more than most who have played characters like this on the big screen until very recently. Jackman really is an anomaly. The MCU actors packed in a lot of appearances because of the nature of the franchise.

I think those runs have skewed a lot of peoples perspective and they think every actor is owed at least ten years or ten films in a role. Cavills pretty much hit the ten year mark from the time he was cast. He could have had more film appearances if he’d done Shazam but he took some poor advice IMO. It’s a younger mans game and like you said he’s had his shot. Let the next guy have his turn in a new decade the way Reeve had the 80s Cain had the 90s Routh had the 2000s and Cavill himself had the 2010s.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 20, 2021 13:30:13 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Jan 19, 2021 16:03:52 GMT -5 dejan said:

Excellent post Metallo

Just had a bit of fun breaking down some rough stats.......... regarding cinematic history when it comes to individual representations regarding one unique character in super hero lore:

Hugh Jackman and Patrick Stewart(17 years) and Ian MaKellen(14 years) lead the pack by some distance.

But putting aside the X Men franchise which has undergone several "mutations!" of it's own to sustain the presence of the above aforementioned actors.......

Every one else I can think of have  not lasted  nearly as long.

Downey Jr had 11 years as Iron Man.....but Iron Man 3 wrapped up just 5 years of unique Downey IM movies.
Chris Evans and Chris Hemsworth would have roughly 7 years in stand alone Cap America and Thor flicks respectively.

Maguire's  Spiderman lasted 5 years
Garfield's Spidey lasted 2 years
Bale's Batman lasted 7 years
Keaton's Batman lasted 3 years
Norton's & Banna's Hulk and Slater's Supergirl never got the chance to extend their stays.
Gadot's Wonder Woman is entering it's 5th year
Snipe's Blade had 6 years.
Affleck lasted barely more than a year as Batman

Amazingly Reeve had 9 years as Superman.....although on a personal level SIV does not exist!(sorry it's still the most deluding cinematic experience I have ever had)....so for me, Reeve was Supes for 5 years!(ok I am just kidding!).

The point I am making is that Cavill is entering his 8th year - should he be allowed to continue(and he was hired nearly 10 years ago!).

He has had his shot as  far as I am personally concerned(granted I am a nobody!).
IMHO it's time to pass that torch onwards and hopefully upwards!.

It’s always interesting to see stats like that because it really puts things in perspective. Cavill’s had a normal run for this kind of role. He got three movies. Normal and more than most who have played characters like this on the big screen until very recently. Jackman really is an anomaly. The MCU actors packed in a lot of appearances because of the nature of the franchise.

I think those runs have skewed a lot of peoples perspective and they think every actor is owed at least ten years or ten films in a role. Cavills pretty much hit the ten year mark from the time he was cast. He could have had more film appearances if he’d done Shazam but he took some poor advice IMO. It’s a younger mans game and like you said he’s had his shot. Let the next guy have his turn in a new decade the way Reeve had the 80s Cain had the 90s Routh had the 2000s and Cavill himself had the 2010s.

I think the continuity of actors helps the credibility of the movie series for sure- But it's sad for a big budget venture when they don't really have their act together.
With so many failed franchises, it's truly amazing that Kevin Feige has been able to carry that giant franchise that is the MCU.... if one day he's 'done' with all the phases of Marvel, I'm sure that someone (if not many) at WB would be tempting Feige with a position to take over their DC universe to film.

It's no secret my preference is Routh. Cavill looks like a Superhero, I'm 'ok' with him as Superman- even though it brings up the terrible baggage of MOS.
Rumormill was that he's going to be around awhile, but who knows? Will see...

[dejan]

@cam & metallo

I forgot about poor ol' Routh!

I guess if you include the Crisis Of Infinite Earth stuff then he has had a whopping 14 years!!
 
I guess all this universe sharing and pseudo rebooting has the capacity to extend an actor's run playing a character.

Scarlet Johannsson has been Back Widow for 11 years....but has never recited in a stand alone until now( and a  prequel at that)!

As for Cavill, I think he did the best he could with what he had......but as I said a few months ago in another thread.....we now need a strong character actor to take the reigns with Supes.
Not just someone who looks good.
The "look good" formula has failed with Cavill and Routh(and I personally ,would extend that to Welling and Hoechlin in the TV world too....but maybe I am being harsh).     

[booshman]

Jan 20, 2021 21:05:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

The "look good" formula has failed with Cavill and Routh(and I personally ,would extend that to Welling and Hoechlin in the TV world too....but maybe I am being harsh).     

None of them are particularly great actors at all I would agree. I want a hard reset at this point. Superman, just Superman no shared DC universe, in a miniseries aimed at adults, but not something kids can't watch. An older Superman with a present day problem to solve serving as the framework, while reflecting back on his origins and battles of yesteryear would be great. We could cover his whole life but not in chronological order and briefly touch upon elements that have been done to death while mostly covering new ground.

[atp]

Jan 20, 2021 22:36:44 GMT -5 booshman said:

Jan 20, 2021 21:05:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

The "look good" formula has failed with Cavill and Routh(and I personally ,would extend that to Welling and Hoechlin in the TV world too....but maybe I am being harsh).     

None of them are particularly great actors at all I would agree. I want a hard reset at this point. Superman, just Superman no shared DC universe, in a miniseries aimed at adults, but not something kids can't watch. An older Superman with a present day problem to solve serving as the framework, while reflecting back on his origins and battles of yesteryear would be great. We could cover his whole life but not in chronological order and briefly touch upon elements that have been done to death while mostly covering new ground.

Agreed totally.

A miniseries is the perfect vehicle.

An origin movie will never be as good as STM, so no point going over that ground again.

And a TV series will eventually get silly and jump the shark.

A miniseries of 8 to 10 hours will be the sweet spot.

[Metallo]

Doesn’t really matter what the format is as long as it’s good. WINNING cures most problems. We could get a miniseries and it could be absolute garbage if it has the wrong people and isn’t very well done. That would just dig the whole superman is in even deeper. It’s not the format but the quality of execution.

Wonder Woman is a perfect example. Decades of going back and forth on wether it should be a movie or a tv show only got worse when they didn’t work. For years all The different attempts failed to get off the ground. The 2017 movie worked for the most part and got the character on track. It was similar yet different for the flash. He stayed in development heck on tv and on film for years. But the CW tv show was a hit and got the character up and running again (no pun intended).

As for tv shows jumping the shark most of them do that because there’s no end point in sight and they milk it for too long especially in America. A strong tv show should have a finite screen life. Something like a five year plan and arc and work towards a conclusion. Smallville for instance stayed on way past its expiration date and they had no idea what they were doing. Just the vague end point of him finally becoming Superman.

Jan 20, 2021 21:05:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam & metallo

I forgot about poor ol' Routh!

I guess if you include the Crisis Of Infinite Earth stuff then he has had a whopping 14 years!!
 
I guess all this universe sharing and pseudo rebooting has the capacity to extend an actor's run playing a character.

Scarlet Johannsson has been Back Widow for 11 years....but has never recited in a stand alone until now( and a  prequel at that)!

As for Cavill, I think he did the best he could with what he had......but as I said a few months ago in another thread.....we now need a strong character actor to take the reigns with Supes.
Not just someone who looks good.
The "look good" formula has failed with Cavill and Routh(and I personally ,would extend that to Welling and Hoechlin in the TV world too....but maybe I am being harsh).     

Situations like Rouths is where it gets tricky. It was never really one long unbroken run. He had a short run. It ended. He came back. If we’re counting situations like that then John Wesley Shipp was the flash for 29 years. That’s got to beat darnn near everyone else. Then there’s Adam Wests 50 year run if you count those last two animated Batman films. It’s the same version of the character just animated.

Looks have overshadowed everything with Superman for far too long. It seems like to some people looks equal greatness. It’s why it’s silly to me that Cavill gets such praise from some people when it’s all because he looks the part.

Routh isn’t a much better actor but I do think he’s a better fit for the role personality wise than Cavill and he had the better material to work with. I think that’s why so many people were more willing to embrace him after Crisis and felt like it fixed a lot of the problems with the character in Superman Returns. It FELT more like Superman than anything from Zack Snyder.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 21, 2021 13:54:30 GMT -5 Metallo said:

Doesn’t really matter what the format is as long as it’s good. WINNING cures most problems. We could get a miniseries and it could be absolute garbage if it has the wrong people and isn’t very well done. That would just dig the whole superman is in even deeper. It’s not the format but the quality of execution.

Wonder Woman is a perfect example. Decades of going back and forth on wether it should be a movie or a tv show only got worse when they didn’t work. For years all The different attempts failed to get off the ground. The 2017 movie worked for the most part and got the character on track. It was similar yet different for the flash. He stayed in development heck on tv and on film for years. But the CW tv show was a hit and got the character up and running again (no pun intended).

As for tv shows jumping the shark most of them do that because there’s no end point in sight and they milk it for too long especially in America. A strong tv show should have a finite screen life. Something like a five year plan and arc and work towards a conclusion. Smallville for instance stayed on way past its expiration date and they had no idea what they were doing. Just the vague end point of him finally becoming Superman.

Jan 20, 2021 21:05:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam & metallo

I forgot about poor ol' Routh!

I guess if you include the Crisis Of Infinite Earth stuff then he has had a whopping 14 years!!
 
I guess all this universe sharing and pseudo rebooting has the capacity to extend an actor's run playing a character.

Scarlet Johannsson has been Back Widow for 11 years....but has never recited in a stand alone until now( and a  prequel at that)!

As for Cavill, I think he did the best he could with what he had......but as I said a few months ago in another thread.....we now need a strong character actor to take the reigns with Supes.
Not just someone who looks good.
The "look good" formula has failed with Cavill and Routh(and I personally ,would extend that to Welling and Hoechlin in the TV world too....but maybe I am being harsh).     

Situations like Rouths is where it gets tricky. It was never really one long unbroken run. He had a short run. It ended. He came back. If we’re counting situations like that then John Wesley Shipp was the flash for 29 years. That’s got to beat darnn near everyone else. Then there’s Adam Wests 50 year run if you count those last two animated Batman films. It’s the same version of the character just animated.

Looks have overshadowed everything with Superman for far too long. It seems like to some people looks equal greatness. It’s why it’s silly to me that Cavill gets such praise from some people when it’s all because he looks the part.

Routh isn’t a much better actor but I do think he’s a better fit for the role personality wise than Cavill and he had the better material to work with. I think that’s why so many people were more willing to embrace him after Crisis and felt like it fixed a lot of the problems with the character in Superman Returns. It FELT more like Superman than anything from Zack Snyder.

All great points-
The thing with the series... some thoughts-

On one hand, you had AMAZING stuff season to season with Buffy and Angel. Each season ender felt like it could have been a series ender, as nothing felt saved for next season.

On the other hand, it looked like Joss Whedon had far more free reign than (I assume) a property like Star Trek or Superman would have....

On another note- one of Whedon's least successful shows- he had mentioned that the network kept flip-flopping on how far the show could go, and so it ended up schizo through the inherent problems.

If it has the right people involved, I agree that's the most important--- plus the freedom to finish the job the way it's planned.

Looks for comic book characters is a biggie for me.... but also for other types of films, depending on what the story is supposed to convey... and how much support comes from all other areas.

"Nixon" with Anthony Hopkins kind of worksd, even though there's zero resemblance to Nixon--- but it took awhile to get there, even if I wasn't familiar with Hopkins' prior work.

On the flip side, I was whining that Chris Evans was already the Human Torch and that it would be difficult to buy him as Captain America- but everything else was so well put together, I see him as Cap first, Torch second (if I have to).

So.... all depends.

[dejan]

I would like to add that they also need to get another strong actress for Lois(or Lana) who also has the reactions and chemistry with whoever ends up playing Supes.

I just watched MOS,SR and SII(in that order) in one binge watch............and that lack of chemistry between Cavill + Adams and Routh + Bosworth is the thing that really caught my eye more than anything else.

Donner and Lyyne Stalmaster struck gold when they got Reeve and Kidder.

For any future Supes film to have any resonance at all......they need to get a pair that don't need to necessarily simulate Reeve/Kidder .....but still match them in acting chemistry. 


 

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 20, 2021 22:36:44 GMT -5 booshman said:

Jan 20, 2021 21:05:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

The "look good" formula has failed with Cavill and Routh(and I personally ,would extend that to Welling and Hoechlin in the TV world too....but maybe I am being harsh).     

None of them are particularly great actors at all I would agree. I want a hard reset at this point. Superman, just Superman no shared DC universe, in a miniseries aimed at adults, but not something kids can't watch. An older Superman with a present day problem to solve serving as the framework, while reflecting back on his origins and battles of yesteryear would be great. We could cover his whole life but not in chronological order and briefly touch upon elements that have been done to death while mostly covering new ground.

I think with a miniseries- what's good is that there's a chance to let a story 'breathe' and have slower character moments (if desired) that might not be able to happen if everything is crammed into a summer blockbuster format.

As far as acting goes- I think everyone pretty much agrees about the actors- but here's a question I guess I can pose to everyone:

Imagine two actors for Superman:

#1: One is a fantastic actor, who is 5" and doesn't QUITE look like Supes.

#2: One is an okay-good actor, who is 6 feet plus and looks EXACTLY as you would picture Superman to be.

Who would you choose?

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 28, 2021 10:01:33 GMT -5 dejan said:

I would like to add that they also need to get another strong actress for Lois(or Lana) who also has the reactions and chemistry with whoever ends up playing Supes.

I just watched MOS,SR and SII(in that order) in one binge watch............and that lack of chemistry between Cavill + Adams and Routh + Bosworth is the thing that really caught my eye more than anything else.

Donner and Lyyne Stalmaster struck gold when they got Reeve and Kidder.

For any future Supes film to have any resonance at all......they need to get a pair that don't need to necessarily simulate Reeve/Kidder .....but still match them in acting chemistry. 


 

I was okay with Bosworth, as I knew someone that looked that young & had a kid, so that didn't throw me off. Erica Durance would have been a better fit, though.

With Amy Adams- she could have been an okay Lana Lane--- but to me it's a tossup of who's worse casting: Amy Adams or Elizabeth Turloch. They might be nice human beings, but I have problems seeing either one as Lois.

[dejan]

@cam

IMHO
Did not have a problem with Bosworth's youth per say.
To be fair, her acting chemistry with Routh's Clark was better.
But Bosworth with Routh's Superman was just flat.
And both actors ,the director, and script writers are to blame for that lack of chemistry.
 
You also raised the ultimate gauntlet in a previous post about what one would prefer.... a good actor or an actor who looks good.

To heck with the look good crap!.....it does not work.
Both Cavill and Routh looked great but that can only take you so far.
Remember Reeve in the screen test.......he really did look like an asparagus!......but his acute psychological portrayal hit the mark dead on(with Donner's direction). If Reeve had not bulked up I would wager STM would still have been a classic!
Same applied to Kidder. Her screen test for the balcony scene is fantastic.....you can see the affection she has for Reeve's Supes on every frame .And yet her actual look in that footage was completely unorthodox when compared to some of the other acresses(Raffin ect) who made themselves up for the tests.
 
A good/great actor as Supes(whatever he looks like) with an actress as Lois(whatever she looks like) who  has natural chemistry (with Suoes) is desperately needed! 

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 28, 2021 21:02:47 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam

IMHO
Did not have a problem with Bosworth's youth per say.
To be fair, her acting chemistry with Routh's Clark was better.
But Bosworth with Routh's Superman was just flat.
And both actors ,the director, and script writers are to blame for that lack of chemistry.
 
You also raised the ultimate gauntlet in a previous post about what one would prefer.... a good actor or an actor who looks good.

To heck with the look good crap!.....it does not work.
Both Cavill and Routh looked great but that can only take you so far.
Remember Reeve in the screen test.......he really did look like an asparagus!......but his acute psychological portrayal hit the mark dead on(with Donner's direction). If Reeve had not bulked up I would wager STM would still have been a classic!
Same applied to Kidder. Her screen test for the balcony scene is fantastic.....you can see the affection she has for Reeve's Supes on every frame .And yet her actual look in that footage was completely unorthodox when compared to some of the other acresses(Raffin ect) who made themselves up for the tests.
 
A good/great actor as Supes(whatever he looks like) with an actress as Lois(whatever she looks like) who  has natural chemistry (with Suoes) is desperately needed! 

I agree that looks can only go so far... at a certain point the person has to be able to act.... but for specific comic book characters, if it has to sacrifice a bit of acting quality for looking the part- I would.... to a point. It's hard to definie exactly how 'bad' I would accept lesser acting. You're right that the script, directing, etc. all play a part in helping that out, too.

I agree that whoever plays who, the actors who play Superman and Lois HAVE to have chemistry.

[dejan]

@cam

Yeah sorry should have emphasized my personal viewpoint a little better..
I  still hope that whoever recites the role looks the part too(of course that is subjective in it's own right)!

But unlike Batman,Spidey, Iron Man,Panther ect who have masks(and even cgi !) to assist with the effectiveness of the portrayal, poor ol' Supe's has to rely of his facial expressions and articulations(as well as the physical stuff) to execute a convincing performance(same applies to Clark).
Routh and Cavill had their moments .
Routh's Supes was kind and caring but a touch bland.
Cavill's Supes was not so caring(could have been due to the script/director) but had a bit of (bad boy)character.
And neither of them had genuine chemistry with their respective Lois's.
Reeve was caring and had charisma+ he had chemistry with Lois and Lana(even if the arc of that relationship was not fully realized).

One more thing.....the flying!.....this aspect really needs extra emphasis as both MOS  and SR did piss poor jobs in that department.

[atp]

Jan 29, 2021 20:30:54 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam

Yeah sorry should have emphasized my personal viewpoint a little better..
I  still hope that whoever recites the role looks the part too(of course that is subjective in it's own right)!

But unlike Batman,Spidey, Iron Man,Panther ect who have masks(and even cgi !) to assist with the effectiveness of the portrayal, poor ol' Supe's has to rely of his facial expressions and articulations(as well as the physical stuff) to execute a convincing performance(same applies to Clark).
Routh and Cavill had their moments .
Routh's Supes was kind and caring but a touch bland.
Cavill's Supes was not so caring(could have been due to the script/director) but had a bit of (bad boy)character.
And neither of them had genuine chemistry with their respective Lois's.
Reeve was caring and had charisma+ he had chemistry with Lois and Lana(even if the arc of that relationship was not fully realized).

One more thing.....the flying!.....this aspect really needs extra emphasis as both MOS  and SR did piss poor jobs in that department.

The flying in MOS was awful. It looked fake. At best it looked like a videogame.

Some of STM's flying shots may look a bit dodgy now, but on the whole it was way way better. Even now, that first flight in the fortress is incredible and so real.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 29, 2021 23:52:39 GMT -5 atp said:

Jan 29, 2021 20:30:54 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam

Yeah sorry should have emphasized my personal viewpoint a little better..
I  still hope that whoever recites the role looks the part too(of course that is subjective in it's own right)!

But unlike Batman,Spidey, Iron Man,Panther ect who have masks(and even cgi !) to assist with the effectiveness of the portrayal, poor ol' Supe's has to rely of his facial expressions and articulations(as well as the physical stuff) to execute a convincing performance(same applies to Clark).
Routh and Cavill had their moments .
Routh's Supes was kind and caring but a touch bland.
Cavill's Supes was not so caring(could have been due to the script/director) but had a bit of (bad boy)character.
And neither of them had genuine chemistry with their respective Lois's.
Reeve was caring and had charisma+ he had chemistry with Lois and Lana(even if the arc of that relationship was not fully realized).

One more thing.....the flying!.....this aspect really needs extra emphasis as both MOS  and SR did piss poor jobs in that department.

The flying in MOS was awful. It looked fake. At best it looked like a videogame.

Some of STM's flying shots may look a bit dodgy now, but on the whole it was way way better. Even now, that first flight in the fortress is incredible and so real.

I think the thing with STM that even the comics didn’t quite realize was—- how beautiful and poetic the concept is of a person being able to fly.

STM was incredibly romanticized and believed in the concept. Donner’s sentimentality and heart on his sleeve was perfect for the film.

There are a zillion ‘beauty shots’ in STM set to John Williams’ music in the film- and they complement one another.

MOS approached it almost like a scifi horror story. Part of it actually kind of works but heartless. The flying scenes are there as are the ensemble in some form but there isn’t the appreciation nor respect for the core material as a whole.

[atp]

Jan 30, 2021 1:31:49 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Jan 29, 2021 23:52:39 GMT -5 atp said:

The flying in MOS was awful. It looked fake. At best it looked like a videogame.

Some of STM's flying shots may look a bit dodgy now, but on the whole it was way way better. Even now, that first flight in the fortress is incredible and so real.

I think the thing with STM that even the comics didn’t quite realize was—- how beautiful and poetic the concept is of a person being able to fly.

STM was incredibly romanticized and believed in the concept. Donner’s sentimentality and heart on his sleeve was perfect for the film.

There are a zillion ‘beauty shots’ in STM set to John Williams’ music in the film- and they complement one another.

MOS approached it almost like a scifi horror story. Part of it actually kind of works but heartless. The flying scenes are there as are the ensemble in some form but there isn’t the appreciation nor respect for the core material as a whole.

Being able to fly in a movie is beautiful and poetic, but only if it is treated gently and gracefully. If it's too fast, it loses that. Reeve had the perfect level of gracefulness and speed in most of his flying scenes. "Faster than a speeding bullet" is good for a comic book, but not in a movie.

One of my favourite flying shots is in S3, when he flies across the road to save the guy drowning in the car. Poetic is exactly the right word for that.

Another movie that captures that beautiful feeling of flight is "Explorers" from 1985, with Ethan Hawke and River Phoenix.

[dejan]

@cam & ATP

Nice points both

Actually that's a good point with regards to the speed of the flying in the comics relative to how it has been portrayed in the films.
I am wondering that the grace(and relative slowness as compared to MOS ect) in STM,II,III could have been down to artistic license as well as the limits of optical technology at that point.

The scene in Supergirl where she flies from the beach back to Selena's lair might well be the best example in the Salkind quadrilogy of flight at accelerated speed. 

For audiences in the late 70's and early 80s though,in general, Reeve's flying was fast enough!
STM's rocket chase being my personal favorite.

But it is also Reeve's facial expressions that really sell it(and no amount of CG can replace that---as Routh found out to his cost).

It is no wonder that Roy Field said the best special effect was Chris Reeve himself!

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 30, 2021 9:30:38 GMT -5 atp said:

Jan 30, 2021 1:31:49 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I think the thing with STM that even the comics didn’t quite realize was—- how beautiful and poetic the concept is of a person being able to fly.

STM was incredibly romanticized and believed in the concept. Donner’s sentimentality and heart on his sleeve was perfect for the film.

There are a zillion ‘beauty shots’ in STM set to John Williams’ music in the film- and they complement one another.

MOS approached it almost like a scifi horror story. Part of it actually kind of works but heartless. The flying scenes are there as are the ensemble in some form but there isn’t the appreciation nor respect for the core material as a whole.

Being able to fly in a movie is beautiful and poetic, but only if it is treated gently and gracefully. If it's too fast, it loses that. Reeve had the perfect level of gracefulness and speed in most of his flying scenes. "Faster than a speeding bullet" is good for a comic book, but not in a movie.

One of my favourite flying shots is in S3, when he flies across the road to save the guy drowning in the car. Poetic is exactly the right word for that.

Another movie that captures that beautiful feeling of flight is "Explorers" from 1985, with Ethan Hawke and River Phoenix.

Absolutely! If it's shot with a shakicam, (or simulated shakicam)- it has an extra level of chaos and tension that could work, but with attention spans shrinking to zero- and the overflow of exciting videogames- the 'slow and quiet' flying of STM with the music is a welcome breath of fresh air. I don't know if any future reboot would have any 'flying ballet' scenes and be considered too slow, but I'm more glad than ever that they were allowed in the originals.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 30, 2021 13:10:46 GMT -5 dejan said:

@cam & ATP

Nice points both

Actually that's a good point with regards to the speed of the flying in the comics relative to how it has been portrayed in the films.
I am wondering that the grace(and relative slowness as compared to MOS ect) in STM,II,III could have been down to artistic license as well as the limits of optical technology at that point.

The scene in Supergirl where she flies from the beach back to Selena's lair might well be the best example in the Salkind quadrilogy of flight at accelerated speed. 

For audiences in the late 70's and early 80s though,in general, Reeve's flying was fast enough!
STM's rocket chase being my personal favorite.

But it is also Reeve's facial expressions that really sell it(and no amount of CG can replace that---as Routh found out to his cost).

It is no wonder that Roy Field said the best special effect was Chris Reeve himself!

Also... of course, the compositions by Unsworth (and approved by Donner) made every flying shot look particularly artistic in STM. Some of the new shots are fine (particularyly the LOis/Supes to the FOS) but the long shots of the Superman stand-in doll in the theatrical cut of SII .... not so much. (While some were shot by Donner's second unit, one wonders why more new flying closeups shot by Unsworth weren't used for the Metro battle.... did they really use ALL the Unsworth flying closeups in STM/SII that they had to recycle a shot?)

[Metallo]

Jan 28, 2021 10:01:33 GMT -5 dejan said:

I would like to add that they also need to get another strong actress for Lois(or Lana) who also has the reactions and chemistry with whoever ends up playing Supes.

I just watched MOS,SR and SII(in that order) in one binge watch............and that lack of chemistry between Cavill + Adams and Routh + Bosworth is the thing that really caught my eye more than anything else.

Donner and Lyyne Stalmaster struck gold when they got Reeve and Kidder.

For any future Supes film to have any resonance at all......they need to get a pair that don't need to necessarily simulate Reeve/Kidder .....but still match them in acting chemistry. 


 

Agreed. Bosworth and Adams were both miscast. It’s a horserace as to which one is worse. Adams is the better actress but I felt she somehow had less chemistry with Cavill than Bosworth had with Routh. Bosworth is the lesser actress and she just wasn’t believable in the role. It’s obvious both were cast for reasons other than fitting the part. Adams was a name and Snyder as usual wanted to fix what wasn’t broken by casting someone all wrong. Kevin Spacey pushed for Bosworth.