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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 9, 2023 13:56:42 GMT -5
A few dream list things that I would like with the giant WB rebooot (that most of you guys here could probably already guess):
#1: James Gunn wanting to put massive Avatar dollar$ into restoring Donner/Mank's Superman II... using all tools at tech's disposal now.
Since that ain't happening... (cue broken record sounds)- Widescreen blu ray Superman II International cut!!!
(Could care less about the 4k)
#2: James Gunn rewriting Superman using most all of the elements that were in Donner's STM/SII- and getting someone who really invokes Reeve's Superman (cue Brandon Routh's agent).
#3: Comic book adaptation of the Mank scripts by John Byrne or Jerry Ordway or one of those artists who would really dive in and go for more realism. Then- continuation of those-
#4: Published version of the original Puzo script.... I would assume that MAYBE it's in WB archives (though maybe not, considering how many versions of scripts exist).... or maybe Ilya Salkind can get it published? (HE must have a copy, I would think)
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atp
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Post by atp on Jan 9, 2023 14:59:09 GMT -5
A few dream list things that I would like with the giant WB rebooot (that most of you guys here could probably already guess): #1: James Gunn wanting to put massive Avatar dollar$ into restoring Donner/Mank's Superman II... using all tools at tech's disposal now. Since that ain't happening... (cue broken record sounds)- Widescreen blu ray Superman II International cut!!! (Could care less about the 4k) #2: James Gunn rewriting Superman using most all of the elements that were in Donner's STM/SII- and getting someone who really invokes Reeve's Superman (cue Brandon Routh's agent). #3: Comic book adaptation of the Mank scripts by John Byrne or Jerry Ordway or one of those artists who would really dive in and go for more realism. Then- continuation of those- #4: Published version of the original Puzo script.... I would assume that MAYBE it's in WB archives (though maybe not, considering how many versions of scripts exist).... or maybe Ilya Salkind can get it published? (HE must have a copy, I would think) Part of me would love to see #2 on your list. A modern remake of STM and S2 done right. But then I think that it would be impossible to recapture that magic. Part of the appeal of STM is that the Smallville parts were set in the 1940s to 1960s, and the rest of the film was in 1978. There was just something special about those time periods. A remake set in 2023 would mean that Clark was 18 in 2011. I don't think it would have the same kind of timeless appeal |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 9, 2023 20:23:49 GMT -5
A few dream list things that I would like with the giant WB rebooot (that most of you guys here could probably already guess): #1: James Gunn wanting to put massive Avatar dollar$ into restoring Donner/Mank's Superman II... using all tools at tech's disposal now. Since that ain't happening... (cue broken record sounds)- Widescreen blu ray Superman II International cut!!! (Could care less about the 4k) #2: James Gunn rewriting Superman using most all of the elements that were in Donner's STM/SII- and getting someone who really invokes Reeve's Superman (cue Brandon Routh's agent). #3: Comic book adaptation of the Mank scripts by John Byrne or Jerry Ordway or one of those artists who would really dive in and go for more realism. Then- continuation of those- #4: Published version of the original Puzo script.... I would assume that MAYBE it's in WB archives (though maybe not, considering how many versions of scripts exist).... or maybe Ilya Salkind can get it published? (HE must have a copy, I would think) Part of me would love to see #2 on your list. A modern remake of STM and S2 done right. But then I think that it would be impossible to recapture that magic. Part of the appeal of STM is that the Smallville parts were set in the 1940s to 1960s, and the rest of the film was in 1978. There was just something special about those time periods. A remake set in 2023 would mean that Clark was 18 in 2011. I don't think it would have the same kind of timeless appeal Agreed- the nods to every era of Superman in STM up to that point was nice- you did make me think of a possible 'real ideal' (but not realistic)- would be to have a 10 year tv series- with 2 generations of Superman- with STM being canon and setting the time span to match- 1978 to 2023 (or such).... and do the 78 versions close to how Donner might have approached it with the comics as they were during that time frame as well. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Jan 10, 2023 6:43:03 GMT -5
That’s all great but WB needs to focus most on the here and now and get all that fixed. They’ve totally blown it by hiring fools like Zack Snyder. I think Gunn will adapt more classic stories and eras compared to the more New 52 influenced work we’ve seen from WB/DC in the last ten years. Part of the problem was WB was more interested in pushing tie ins to recent stuff and Johns was too biased and wanted to adapt his own work which was a major part of the New 52 era.
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 10, 2023 20:46:09 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 11, 2023 19:31:29 GMT -5
That's awesome! Never knew about this- not sure I want to go through the process or pay the fee right now- but I had no idea the Puzo script was even available! How cool! Thanks!!!
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 12, 2023 11:42:50 GMT -5
That's awesome! Never knew about this- not sure I want to go through the process or pay the fee right now- but I had no idea the Puzo script was even available! How cool! Thanks!!! My pleasure! I’ve been reading them for my own research purposes as well. I will say that it’s nothing to write home about. Puzo was lucky that his material went through more capable hands to end up with the films we know and love. I’ve obtained the notes DC Comics had on the drafts and it displays their leniency on following the preestablished “integrity of character” clause they stipulated in the contracts. Puzo had this weird Aryan view of Kryptonians, including a blonde haired Jor-El, that was corrected by DC to specify he’s dark haired like his son. Many elements were thankfully dropped like Clark and a sports writer competing for Lois’ love that included throwing footballs through hoops before she agrees to go on a date. It’s also annoying as mentioned in the post that Puzo called Lex Lux instead. The Newmans and Benton made many many improvements to the work, including laying out the ground work for the two movies the Salkinds wanted against Puzo’s noted pleas of recommending they stick to just one movie. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 12, 2023 20:18:57 GMT -5
That's awesome! Never knew about this- not sure I want to go through the process or pay the fee right now- but I had no idea the Puzo script was even available! How cool! Thanks!!! My pleasure! I’ve been reading them for my own research purposes as well. I will say that it’s nothing to write home about. Puzo was lucky that his material went through more capable hands to end up with the films we know and love. I’ve obtained the notes DC Comics had on the drafts and it displays their leniency on following the preestablished “integrity of character” clause they stipulated in the contracts. Puzo had this weird Aryan view of Kryptonians, including a blonde haired Jor-El, that was corrected by DC to specify he’s dark haired like his son. Many elements were thankfully dropped like Clark and a sports writer competing for Lois’ love that included throwing footballs through hoops before she agrees to go on a date. It’s also annoying as mentioned in the post that Puzo called Lex Lux instead. The Newmans and Benton made many many improvements to the work, including laying out the ground work for the two movies the Salkinds wanted against Puzo’s noted pleas of recommending they stick to just one movie. Thanks for all these! This is gold! Your notes are worthy of a thread on its own. If you've already read through the script- and have any other recollections or notes you'd want to share in the future, I think it'd be cool to have a separate thread just for that- I don't know when I'd be able to get to obtaining (let alone reading) the Puzo script- but these are fascinating! It's hard to picture the two movies being able to be one 3 hour one, if that's what Puzo might have been thinking. I guess it could have been done, but it would have shortchanged quite a lot... |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jan 13, 2023 2:33:39 GMT -5
Didn't the Puzo script have stupid crap like Kojak appearing?
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 13, 2023 22:52:05 GMT -5
Didn't the Puzo script have stupid crap like Kojak appearing? That was a Newmans and Benton revision addition. I think that detail gets way too overblown when discussions are brought up on what state the script was in when Donner and Mankiewicz signed on. Just because it's in the script, it doesn't mean it'll be in the movie. I think stuff like that is included in scripts just so that the writers can verify if it's being read or not. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 14, 2023 22:58:16 GMT -5
Didn't the Puzo script have stupid crap like Kojak appearing? That was a Newmans and Benton revision addition. I think that detail gets way too overblown when discussions are brought up on what state the script was in when Donner and Mankiewicz signed on. Just because it's in the script, it doesn't mean it'll be in the movie. I think stuff like that is included in scripts just so that the writers can verify if it's being read or not. One question: Is there any scene or bit that really shone in the Puzo script that you remember NOT getting into any of the shot versions? |
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 15, 2023 5:35:24 GMT -5
Nothing particularly stands out. The only real positive aspect I can give to the scripts is Puzo’s writing style. The descriptions are very novel which account for the lengthy page numbers. As the Reddit post says, it is fun to see more of Superman and Lex have to work together to defeat the Kryptonian villains, it was ultimately better how they did it with the whole “he switched it” scene in II.
Honestly, the most interesting aspect of the archived material is the correspondence with DC Comics over the scripts. It really displayed how much people like Julius Schwartz and Bernie Kasden cared about the legacy of the character and wanted to be sure that this didn’t veer too far away from their pre-established mythos. It makes you wish that we could see more material like this for the other drafts and subsequent sequels.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jan 15, 2023 17:55:39 GMT -5
Nothing particularly stands out. The only real positive aspect I can give to the scripts is Puzo’s writing style. The descriptions are very novel which account for the lengthy page numbers. As the Reddit post says, it is fun to see more of Superman and Lex have to work together to defeat the Kryptonian villains, it was ultimately better how they did it with the whole “he switched it” scene in II. Honestly, the most interesting aspect of the archived material is the correspondence with DC Comics over the scripts. It really displayed how much people like Julius Schwartz and Bernie Kasden cared about the legacy of the character and wanted to be sure that this didn’t veer too far away from their pre-established mythos. It makes you wish that we could see more material like this for the other drafts and subsequent sequels. Nice work Kamdan Look forward to your updates and discoveries regarding the Puzo script. Have you seen this interview with Robert Benton, who I believe to be the unsung hero of STM: It's a great interview in general and the STM part is @ 56:08. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 15, 2023 21:31:59 GMT -5
Nothing particularly stands out. The only real positive aspect I can give to the scripts is Puzo’s writing style. The descriptions are very novel which account for the lengthy page numbers. As the Reddit post says, it is fun to see more of Superman and Lex have to work together to defeat the Kryptonian villains, it was ultimately better how they did it with the whole “he switched it” scene in II. Honestly, the most interesting aspect of the archived material is the correspondence with DC Comics over the scripts. It really displayed how much people like Julius Schwartz and Bernie Kasden cared about the legacy of the character and wanted to be sure that this didn’t veer too far away from their pre-established mythos. It makes you wish that we could see more material like this for the other drafts and subsequent sequels. I remember there was an interview with Donner (who we know entered much later)- where he said that DC came down a bit hard on some things, that Donner had to push back a bit and give them confidence that he would be respectful in spirit, but that they had to trust him a bit--- and apparently they did back off... But- would have been nice if DC had interrupted when seeing the Lester cut and made them pull back from the silliness that was over the top. But, I have a feeling that WB - being the parent company - could care less about DC at that time, and was maybe just humoring DC by letting them have input that they could (and apparently did) ignore later on. |
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 15, 2023 21:35:53 GMT -5
Ooh, excellent find! I’ll be very interested in watching the rest of this interview. Benton seemed to be very sparse with details on Superman, but it’s mainly because he admits that it was for the money and he needed something to occupy the time before he was directing his next feature film. It’s hard for us fans to realize that the people who worked on these projects weren’t as big as fans of the material as we are and tend to have their minds on different aspects.
As I did understood it, the Newmans and Benton were more interested in the schizophrenic nature of Superman, which was reflected in their musical version and further explored in the feature films they penned. This was the best way they felt could bring more mature themes into what was deemed as one-dimensional comic book characters. It’s up for discussion, whether or not that’s what we want to see the characters portrayed as, but all of this key elements to development of what the Superman movies became.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 16, 2023 16:54:57 GMT -5
Ooh, excellent find! I’ll be very interested in watching the rest of this interview. Benton seemed to be very sparse with details on Superman, but it’s mainly because he admits that it was for the money and he needed something to occupy the time before he was directing his next feature film. It’s hard for us fans to realize that the people who worked on these projects weren’t as big as fans of the material as we are and tend to have their minds on different aspects. As I did understood it, the Newmans and Benton were more interested in the schizophrenic nature of Superman, which was reflected in their musical version and further explored in the feature films they penned. This was the best way they felt could bring more mature themes into what was deemed as one-dimensional comic book characters. It’s up for discussion, whether or not that’s what we want to see the characters portrayed as, but all of this key elements to development of what the Superman movies became. The problem I think was a lack of ambition to go deeper or darker characterwise with the franchise. Donner had layers to the performances to give depth nonverbally many times. I wouldn't have minded Superman 3 being a true character piece, but -especially if it was just done for a quick buck- the writers didn't want to go deeper or darker- or, it could have been under instruction by Lester and the producers. For sure, including Richard Pryor didn't seem to satisfy Pryor or Reeve- who felt it derailed being a 'real' Superman movie and being more of a kids' comedy with Pryor (which wasn't what Pryor was interested in doing- according to Margot Kidder in an interview). |
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 16, 2023 19:17:58 GMT -5
The deal is that the Newmans thought they being ambitious and darker by having Superman go under the bad influence of the Kryptonite. It’s actually pretty significant that Superman gets sexually involved with Lorelei Ambrosia, which I’m sure they had to twist DC Comics’ arm to depict. Salkind had mentioned before how difficult it was at first to iron out the details of what the movies could and could not do.
I wish that we could have more extensive details on this situation with Pryor. Was there ever discussions on him playing a villain and he wasn’t interested in that? As Kidder indicated, he was a good actor that was largely relegated to funny roles. Donner didn’t handle Pryor any differently in The Toy. It’s hard now to picture someone saying that Superman III would be worthy of the previous two, but I guess the Salkinds thought each one of these movies would print money like the Bond films were doing.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jan 17, 2023 5:27:23 GMT -5
The deal is that the Newmans thought they being ambitious and darker by having Superman go under the bad influence of the Kryptonite. It’s actually pretty significant that Superman gets sexually involved with Lorelei Ambrosia, which I’m sure they had to twist DC Comics’ arm to depict. Salkind had mentioned before how difficult it was at first to iron out the details of what the movies could and could not do. I wish that we could have more extensive details on this situation with Pryor. Was there ever discussions on him playing a villain and he wasn’t interested in that? As Kidder indicated, he was a good actor that was largely relegated to funny roles. Donner didn’t handle Pryor any differently in The Toy. It’s hard now to picture someone saying that Superman III would be worthy of the previous two, but I guess the Salkinds thought each one of these movies would print money like the Bond films were doing. Superman III had a darker twist- but not deeper, for sure. The concept I didn't think was bad at all- but if it was going to go there, then (just as Superman 1 & 2 had shifts within its own movie to get deeper at times)- I felt it would have worked far better if they didn't go for the broad slapstick in the first couple of acts and really go for character development. I think ANY sequel can be worthy.... if it has a good script. I was suprised hearing that Mank and Donner turned it down after SIII- saying (pretty much) that the creative well was dry after the material covered in the first two- but.... since they also said originally that Mank and Donner would have switched back and forth on sequels if Donner had been able to stay on--- I assume that Mank and Donner felt they couldn't reconcile the bad material that they would consider 'canon' in the Lester material added in SII and SIII with them continuing from there- I'm glad that Marvel Studio has shown (and the X-men to a degree) that a good enough script can keep movies going long after one would think the franchise is done. I know I was TOTALLY suprised that the X-men franchise coulld do a u-turn with X-men: First Class and X-men: Days of Future Past, after X3 and some of the very bad Wolverine films. Superman IV for all its faults I still find superior to Superman III in many ways- but it had too many things working against itself, too, though- beyond the filmmakers' hands. (The age of much of the cast for one and the budget and editing the other.) |
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Post by Kamdan on Jan 30, 2023 15:21:40 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Feb 1, 2023 0:17:45 GMT -5
Oh, YEAH!!!  |
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