dejan
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Post by dejan on Mar 29, 2023 14:32:52 GMT -5
So I have become, over the course of the last few weeks, totally “Lesterized”, without , I hope turning into an apologist!
I have watched (or rewatched after the best part of a few decades in some cases) :
The Bed Sitting Room
How I Won The War
Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum
Juggernaught
The Knack And How To Get It
Robin and Marian
Cuba
…….with The Muskateers , A Hard Day’s Night and Help!.....still to come(have seen them before but can’t remember a thing).
Watched them all with a calibrated JVC NX9 front Projector…….so all those production values from whichever flick , can be observed in the best quality possible….something that gets lost on DVD, VHS, Laserdisc or a super compressed version on one’s Laptop/PC or heaven forbid…..on a phone(sad that so many kids these days are watching movies in this way) via YouTube ect ect.
Couple of patterns I have noticed going through most of the man’s work.
First off, the topics he covered….pretty wide ranging, from wars, to social commentaries and political dramas , right through to thrillers, the apocolyptical, the romantic and the historical.
And yeah….you can chuck in a good dose of Superhero stuff too(long before anyone else did- Donner apart of course!).
That’s a pretty impressive repertoire in my book.
As for the style…..crikey….it’s all here.
The absurd, the comical, the satirical(which denominates most of the work in a Felliniesque type way),the epic, interspersed with action ,raw violence and horror.
As for the comedy……well this is not goofball comedy in the mould of Naked Gun, Police Academy or American Pie and it was never meant to be.
Neither does it conform to the more straight ahead adult type of humour of something like a Beverly Hills Cop or a Ghostbusters.
And what will come off even stranger is that it’s not even good ol’ fashioned British comedy like in the vain of the Carry On films or Pink Panther ect ect……and I should know….I live here!
Nope, Lester’s comedy fits the bill of being definitively adult( a lot of these films were X rated at the time of their release), ironic in the extreme and at times, totally off kilter, all encapsulated in a very “British” tinge, culturally, but not comically speaking…..which is where some of the confusion is arising.
Most importantly , I noticed that a lot of the comedic irony gets lost if one is not familiar with the subject matter.
And that’s the other thing…..all the subject matter that Lester tackled , required , or requires knowledge on behalf of the audience of said subject matter at hand.
So as an example , some critics lambasted Cuba in 79’ saying it did not make sense.
But if you understand the political dynamics of the Cuban 1959 revolution…..then the film makes perfect sense.
Same for Robin & Marian……if one is not familiar with the lore of Robin Hood…..then an edge is taken off the perception of the predicament of the characters in the film.
Same for Funny Thing Happened On the Way To The Forum…..in this case , being familiar with the original play(which I personally was not)……..and this pattern goes on and on for Lester for pretty much all his work……it is what it is.
And this filters right through to SII and SIII.
You need to have watched STM for SII to mean whole lot more(this would still have applied even if Donner had completed it back in 79’).
One other thing that jumped right off the screen are the characterizations and the performances.
Every lead actor/actress in which ever film , is infused with a lot of charisma and color.
Whether it’s Harris’s strung out bomb diffuser in Juggernaught, Mostel’s canniving Roman slave in On The Way To The Forum, Connery’s over aged Robin in R & Marian, Crawford’s wacked out General in how I Won The war…..right through to Reeve’s interpretations of a bombastic when necessary yet restrained and humane Supe and a humble, fumbling and pensive Clark.
That’s a thread that runs right through Lester’s flicks.
He knew how to get meaningful and substantial performances from his actors.
So it’s something I wanted to add ,specifically when it came to Reeve and his portrayal of Supes.
Yes, he did a great job be it under Donner or Lester.
But IMHO, it’s under Lester, where he probably gave his most nuanced, mature and diverse performances (across the parts of Lester’s scenes for SII and of course , all of SIII).
Most people credited Reeve without acknowledging the chap who held the camera and got the angles, made him rehearse the lines, lit the set and validated the takes.To be fair this could apply to Donner's effect on Reeve too.
I think we got an inkling of that discrepancy , ironically ,in the Donner cut, specifically for the scene where Reeve pleads to Jorel(“father, wish you could hear me…”)……….and how those 2 recitals diverged between the 2 directors.
Lester’s subtleties with the direction of his actors across all his films , has made me appreciate even more how it affected Reeve’s performance in II and III.
Will add more as I go along.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 8, 2023 11:40:57 GMT -5
Watched A Hard Day’s Night(AHDN) and Help!(H!) for the first time in a very long time.
Personally, I prefer AHDN.
It’s actually a very clever piece of filmmaking in the sense that it’s a movie that feels like a documentary that’s trying to give a tongue and cheek impression of being a movie!
Outside of the 2 Supes films, the Beatles flicks definitely represent Lester at his most playful.
Of course, the movies are augmented by the sheer quality of the Fab 4’s songs , which really has nothing to do with Lester.
Having said that, it turns out that Lester can play piano and guitar……so when it comes to marrying the sounds and songs of the Beatles to the kinetics of moving pictures, then Lester acquaints himself exceedingly well…..merging every beat and rhythm with accordingly appropriate images(and as some critics noted ,the genesis of what would symbolise MTV, for good or worse, began here).
H! essentially spoofs Bond(2 years before Casino Royale would do so!)and IMHO is really only held together by the songs although one gets the impression that’s all they were meant to do.
Obviously the members of The Beatles were not actors and according to McCartney, they felt like they were extras in their own movies!
But both these films are now pop culture time capsules and should be seen as such.
I guess when they came out, they symbolised the hipness of contemporary British youth culture, juxtaposed against the decay and decline of the preceding generation.....a topic that Lester would explore further and more eloquently in The Knack And How To Get It.
On a side note….at the beginning of Help!,Paul McCartney is playing the piano with a Superman comic book , appended to the instrument’s music shelf!.....a portend of things to come for Lester!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 8, 2023 12:20:09 GMT -5
Some more interesting side notes and how they might pertain to Lester taking over Superman II.
In 1974, the original director of Juggernaught, was fired deep into pre-production, and the Studio asked Lester to step in , literally at the 11th hour.
Apparently Lester rescripted(in a manner not dissimilar to what he would eventually do with SII) a lot of the story, changing various emotional and character arcs and traits, in the space of just a few weeks......before commencing with the actual shoot.
Wonder if the Salkinds had that in mind when they fired Donner?......knowing that Lester already had experience taking over someone else's project at the final moment.
In 1979,Lester did a sequel(which is really a prequel) for Butch & The Sundance Kid.
Pay close attention and you will realise that Lester's career is punctuated by sequelitis.
The 2 Beatles films(they were technically unrelated but Help! is nonetheless, a sequel of sorts).
The 2 Muskateers films.
Aswell as Butch And Sundance sequel(prequel in a Temple Of Doom sort of way).
Also, just as Supe II was hitting the theaters in the U.S, in the summer of 1981......United Artists was re-releasing A Hard Day's Night in Dolby Stereo, against the wishes of an irate Lester, who insisted that the original had been recorded in mono and would not be amenable to a revisionist sound mix!
United Artists also added a quick prologue from John Lennon(who had been shot the year before)....which angered Lester even more(and I think rightly so).
So if Lester could be pissed off in 81' ,with a tinkered AHDN....I wonder how he did in fact react in 2006, to the Donner Cut!?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 10, 2023 12:26:14 GMT -5
Appreciate the notes on Lester- again, I only saw a few of the list... but...
I imagine with Lester, he smiled at the 2006 Donner release, knowing that he had done so much damage to usurp the original intent--- that there was no real way to restore it to make it Donner's vision the way it should have been.
OR- if he didn't have malice, then at the very least he could not have been that upset at the Donner cut as he was able to take full credit for the best scenes in SII shot by Donner, plus get praise from critics and fans at the time unable to know what was what or who did what.
The different performances comparing the Thau-edited Donner Cut, the theatrical and the extended theatrical- I find feels off as evidence as to who would/could get a better performance- because that I just have zero faith in Thau picking the right takes and/or putting it together properly. We don't have access to what might have been Donner's best takes- one could compare to what's there- but I compare larger and think about Donner's history of performances beyond just STM/SII- the takes are arguably some of the worst in all of Donner's filmography--- so I would feel it's more realistic to lay the blame on Thau's poor choices, given the number of poor choices in the Donner Cut from pretty much start to finish.
And.... I personally thought SIII was... horrible but 100 percent Lester- but, I know there are fans of SIII- and it's all subjective and glad if it was enjoyable for others.
I do love what he did with the Three Musketeers film, and parts of the Four Musketeers film, though. Beyond that.... still curious about Robin and Marion.
That is interesting on "Juggernaut" being a 'director rescue' film- (I do wonder just HOW MANY times this happens percentage-wise in hollywood/movies?)
Though... Found "Juggernaut" a snoozefest (it was ok but not all that exciting) watching it as a double feature way back when. It's been awhile, but the movie just didn't engage me emotionally. Knowing that it's a 'rescue' film behind the scenes puts it in an odd category- would be interesting if there's an article detailing more on it- and what the changes were between the two approaches.
"Cuba" I think was on cable years ago, didn't finish it- but defer to anyone who has seen the whole thing.
Glad you enjoy his resume.... I was open to ANYONE finishing Superman II- as long as the quality was there. And to me, it was bungled for Lester's personal agendas in my opinion because his career had stalled- and the "Making of Superman II" interview is to me disgusting for the suggestion that he was responsible for all the good material... but.... maybe he's a good human being despite that- so, how can I judge him as a human being?
But- from afar- While I'm not crazy about the Salkinds' replacing Donner- I just blame Lester far worse because he could have done his best to keep to a great (and highly successful) vision started by Donner--- instead of (imo) than devolving as many portions as he could to a bad sitcom.
But- this is my opinion. In my opinion- the good material by Donner still survived the silliness of most of Lester's material and that's what made it a success. Not Lester's additions. There are a COUPLE of moments that I think worked with quick insert shots, but mostly, (imho) not.
On the other hand- just thinking of non-Supes films by Donner to revisit (and encourage others to see)
"Inside Moves", seen several times- very delicate and uplifting small film - despite no turning back time. The main hero who is crippled still is crippled in the end of the film, but has some hope. Very touching and got Diana Scarwid an Academy Award nod. Great performances. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED. Moments very much earned.
"LadyHawke" gets a lot of hate for the predictability- but it's a very romantic - but HIGHLY ARTISTIC - fairy tale- with Rutger Hauer in a rare role as the badarse medeival hero, Michecke Pfeifer (in her best role imo), and a very effective Matthew Broderick as the young con man/thief.
It's just a really beautiful looking film- with a great score. Edited by Stuart Baird- and the action choreography is part Jackie Chan/ but also some of the best staged sword fighting sequences by the end.
Oddly- originally Sean Connery and Dustin Hoffman were originally set as the hero & thief- which I could have seen working as well, and might have been interesting to have seen how that turned out.
"Conspiracy Theory" was solid.... even with a tacked-on happy ending. Though, not nearly as much heart as the other two.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 12, 2023 16:37:44 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts there CAM.
Yes - I am hoping to get the Blu Ray for Inside Moves later in the summer and very much looking forward to it.....heard good things over the years.
I have rewatched Lethal Weapon 1 & 2, The Goonies,Scrooged and Conspiracy Theory(again all on Blu ray and UHD) over the last week or so.
Had not seen any of them in years(and decades in some cases) and only then, on VHS,TV broadcasts or early DVD.
I kinda forgot about the high energy that LW had(and still has).
Gibson's and Glover's chemistry is of course at the core of the piece and Donner gets full marks for extracting the best from both of them.
Action is incredibly well staged and still holds up in my book.
I did see the Goonies as an 11 year old in the cinema in 85'.
Watched it again in christmas 88' when it was first broadcast on national TV here in the UK, for the first time.
And had not seen it since!
But it never did strike a cord with me for some reason.....even if I was probably the appropriate age at the time.
Enjoyed the UHD.
In retrospect.....kinda cool to remember a young Brolin and Astin, given the central roles that they would play in 2 of the most succesfull franchises of the last 20 years or so.....I forgot about them being in this flick!
As a movie I still feel the same way I felt as an 11 year old.....I enjoy the parts more than the whole....but that's just me.
Scrooged I had not seen since the early 90s on TV.
Never realised Murray had a 4 year break after the original Ghostbusters in 84'.
Enjoyed it too.....leaves a kind warm fuzzy feeling with ya....at least it did with me.
Enjoyed Conspiracy Theory too.....it's a bit hammy and over the top but if you take it for what it is....it delivers the goods even with a slightly contrived ending.
Got LadyHawke on it's way too.....again have not seen it in over 20 years....and that was on VHS....so looking forward to the Blu ray.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 12, 2023 17:03:32 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts there CAM. Yes - I am hoping to get the Blu Ray for Inside Moves later in the summer and very much looking forward to it.....heard good things over the years. I have rewatched Lethal Weapon 1 & 2, The Goonies,Scrooged and Conspiracy Theory(again all on Blu ray and UHD) over the last week or so. Had not seen any of them in years(and decades in some cases) and only then, on VHS,TV broadcasts or early DVD. I kinda forgot about the high energy that LW had(and still has). Gibson's and Glover's chemistry is of course at the core of the piece and Donner gets full marks for extracting the best from both of them. Action is incredibly well staged and still holds up in my book. I did see the Goonies as an 11 year old in the cinema in 85'. Watched it again in christmas 88' when it was first broadcast on national TV here in the UK, for the first time. And had not seen it since! But it never did strike a cord with me for some reason.....even if I was probably the appropriate age at the time. Enjoyed the UHD. In retrospect.....kinda cool to remember a young Brolin and Astin, given the central roles that they would play in 2 of the most succesfull franchises of the last 20 years or so.....I forgot about them being in this flick! As a movie I still feel the same way I felt as an 11 year old.....I enjoy the parts more than the whole....but that's just me. Scrooged I had not seen since the early 90s on TV. Never realised Murray had a 4 year break after the original Ghostbusters in 84'. Enjoyed it too.....leaves a kind warm fuzzy feeling with ya....at least it did with me. Enjoyed Conspiracy Theory too.....it's a bit hammy and over the top but if you take it for what it is....it delivers the goods even with a slightly contrived ending. Got LadyHawke on it's way too.....again have not seen it in over 20 years....and that was on VHS....so looking forward to the Blu ray. Lethal 1 & 2 I love, though it should have ended (as it was originally planned) with Riggs dying in Murtagh's arms at the end and being buried next to his wife--- but up to then, it's some of Donner's best work imo. Goonies seemed a little too 'Spy Kids' for me- I enjoyed it- but also felt at times I was too old for the humor, given the time I watched it. But it landed with a lot of folks, that's cool. It is fun to view for the recognizable cast, many who are still working now... Scrooged I very much enjoyed, but it's been awhile. I'll have to do a rewatch sometime. It is a pity that Donner never got a chance to finish both his final Lethal Weapon movie (will it EVER get made now???) or the long-delayed Goonies movie. But, he had a lot of winners and he got a lot of (deserved) praise - hopefully he got enough love and joy in his life to look back at the end and feel it was well lived. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 23, 2023 7:48:17 GMT -5
I ended up watching LW 3 & 4 again, for the first time in a while.
BTW, if anyone is seeking to get these on Bluray.....avoid the 2006 pressings(for LWs 1 & 2) which apparently were riddled with jaggies and other ghastly digital artefacts , something that was inherent to very early Blu releases.
The set to get is the one that was eventually released in 2012, here in the UK(so folks in the US can simply import via Amazon or Ebay), where all 4 films come in one neat package , with LWs 1 & 2 having a newly minted remasters , sans all the digital garbage that affected those 2006 pressings.
As for LWs 3 & 4, having now fully re-aquainted myself with all 4 flicks in the very best quality possible(last viewings were on DVD over a decade ago.....and even then I did not see them in quick succession):
I'll go against the grain and say that I prefer 4 to 3!
Jet Lee's martial arts stuff is simply the best fight choreography in the entire franchise, IMHO.
Clever story telling from Donner too , essentially keeping Gibson and Lee apart until the final showdown( minus that quick encounter in Murtaugh's house half way through), in a manner not dissimilar to SII, where the villains square off against Supes in the last quarter.
So all told, my personal list would be, from best to worst(they are all pretty good though!):
LW 2,1,4,3.
Although going from memory, with those VHS/TV broadcasts/DVD viewings, I rated them in the 1,2,3,4 order.
So these Blu ray screenings have modified my preferences somewhat.
The picture quality for LW4 is exceptionally good BTW.
I was too young to see LW 1 in the cinema back in 87'(12 at the time - I was stuck with Short Circuit and Flight Of The Navigator and er......SIV - lol!), and would eventually see it on VHS in 1989/1990.
In fact, I saw LW2 in the cinema , before seeing LW1 on VHS!
Which may explain that whilst thinking LW2 was pretty good on that 1989 theatrical viewing.....my appreciation for it was somewhat dimmed because I had not yet got the backstory /exposition from LW1.
Anyways, compared to all the other stuff that came out in that year of sequels and blockbusting(1989).....I would say LW2 was vastly superior(i.e Batman- overhyped, Last Crusade -too sentimental, Back To The Future 2 - overstuffed , Ghostbusters 2 - too drab, Star Trek V - just goddam aweful that even SIV seemed half decent by comparison lol! ).
If i had to be critical.....especially in LWs 2,3 & 4....Glover and Gibson probably spend more time shouting at eachother than talking.
In fact, having also recently watched Scrooged.....I noticed that Murray spends quite a bit of time screaming too(much more than ineither Stripes or Ghostbusters).
I don't think I would have noticed this had I not watched all these movies in such close proximity to eachother.
So Donner's approach to comedy was......more shouting = more laughter- lol.
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atp
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Post by atp on Apr 23, 2023 9:19:04 GMT -5
I ended up watching LW 3 & 4 again, for the first time in a while. BTW, if anyone is seeking to get these on Bluray.....avoid the 2006 pressings(for LWs 1 & 2) which apparently were riddled with jaggies and other ghastly digital artefacts , something that was inherent to very early Blu releases. The set to get is the one that was eventually released in 2012, here in the UK(so folks in the US can simply import via Amazon or Ebay), where all 4 films come in one neat package , with LWs 1 & 2 having a newly minted remasters , sans all the digital garbage that affected those 2006 pressings. As for LWs 3 & 4, having now fully re-aquainted myself with all 4 flicks in the very best quality possible(last viewings were on DVD over a decade ago.....and even then I did not see them in quick succession): I'll go against the grain and say that I prefer 4 to 3! Jet Lee's martial arts stuff is simply the best fight choreography in the entire franchise, IMHO. Clever story telling from Donner too , essentially keeping Gibson and Lee apart until the final showdown( minus that quick encounter in Murtaugh's house half way through), in a manner not dissimilar to SII, where the villains square off against Supes in the last quarter. So all told, my personal list would be, from best to worst(they are all pretty good though!): LW 2,1,4,3. Although going from memory, with those VHS/TV broadcasts/DVD viewings, I rated them in the 1,2,3,4 order. So these Blu ray screenings have modified my preferences somewhat. The picture quality for LW4 is exceptionally good BTW. I was too young to see LW 1 in the cinema back in 87'(12 at the time - I was stuck with Short Circuit and Flight Of The Navigator and er......SIV - lol!), and would eventually see it on VHS in 1989/1990. In fact, I saw LW2 in the cinema , before seeing LW1 on VHS! Which may explain that whilst thinking LW2 was pretty good on that 1989 theatrical viewing.....my appreciation for it was somewhat dimmed because I had not yet got the backstory /exposition from LW1. Anyways, compared to all the other stuff that came out in that year of sequels and blockbusting(1989).....I would say LW2 was vastly superior(i.e Batman- overhyped, Last Crusade -too sentimental, Back To The Future 2 - overstuffed , Ghostbusters 2 - too drab, Star Trek V - just goddam aweful that even SIV seemed half decent by comparison lol! ). If i had to be critical.....especially in LWs 2,3 & 4....Glover and Gibson probably spend more time shouting at eachother than talking. In fact, having also recently watched Scrooged.....I noticed that Murray spends quite a bit of time screaming too(much more than ineither Stripes or Ghostbusters). I don't think I would have noticed this had I not watched all these movies in such close proximity to eachother. So Donner's approach to comedy was......more shouting = more laughter- lol. I also like LW2 better than the first. I found the first to be quite depressing and hard going. Also much prefer 4 to 3. LW3 is pretty bland and feels more like a made-for-television movie. Very forgettable. I would rank them 2, 4, 1, 3 |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 23, 2023 14:38:54 GMT -5
atpThanks for sharing your thoughts. What about that building demolition at the beginning of 3?! Pretty spectacular! But I get your angle. Also, as much as I like Russo, in some ways she reminds me of Hathway in Dark Knight Rises.....she kicks a** without ever giving the impression that she really can actually kick a**(at least in my view). But nice to see her here(I kinda forgot she was in LW 3 & 4!)......given her more recent outings as Thor's mum. But yeah.....if I have to be a bit critical of the LW series, then I would say the heavies don't always deliver. As much as I enjoyed the final fight on Glover's lawn between Gibson and Busey at the end of LW1....it never did make much sense to me. Busey is surrounded by cops!.....I mean what's he gonna do...get the satisfaction of kicking Gibsons a**?!.....and then what?....this was a special ops guy running heroin into the good ol US of A....and he is now reduced to fighting a rival on a lawn surrounded by umpteen cops! lol! Still entertaining as heck though.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2023 1:52:14 GMT -5
I ended up watching LW 3 & 4 again, for the first time in a while. BTW, if anyone is seeking to get these on Bluray.....avoid the 2006 pressings(for LWs 1 & 2) which apparently were riddled with jaggies and other ghastly digital artefacts , something that was inherent to very early Blu releases. The set to get is the one that was eventually released in 2012, here in the UK(so folks in the US can simply import via Amazon or Ebay), where all 4 films come in one neat package , with LWs 1 & 2 having a newly minted remasters , sans all the digital garbage that affected those 2006 pressings. Thanks for the heads up!  I remember spending a little extra coin for a vhs 'extended editions' of LW1 & LW2 - that had a sequence where Mel's character goes in to take care of a shooter (in the script he uses a hand grenade and just blows him up if I recall) that was interesting- but never saw that made available in blu (to my memory). |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2023 1:58:22 GMT -5
So all told, my personal list would be, from best to worst(they are all pretty good though!): LW 2,1,4,3. Although going from memory, with those VHS/TV broadcasts/DVD viewings, I rated them in the 1,2,3,4 order. So these Blu ray screenings have modified my preferences somewhat. The picture quality for LW4 is exceptionally good BTW. I was too young to see LW 1 in the cinema back in 87'(12 at the time - I was stuck with Short Circuit and Flight Of The Navigator and er......SIV - lol!), and would eventually see it on VHS in 1989/1990. In fact, I saw LW2 in the cinema , before seeing LW1 on VHS! Which may explain that whilst thinking LW2 was pretty good on that 1989 theatrical viewing.....my appreciation for it was somewhat dimmed because I had not yet got the backstory /exposition from LW1. Anyways, compared to all the other stuff that came out in that year of sequels and blockbusting(1989).....I would say LW2 was vastly superior(i.e Batman- overhyped, Last Crusade -too sentimental, Back To The Future 2 - overstuffed , Ghostbusters 2 - too drab, Star Trek V - just goddam aweful that even SIV seemed half decent by comparison lol! ). Generally agree - Batman, overrated- Back to the Future 2 -suffered from not having Crispin Glover's character back (if recasting the girlfriend, why not recast GLover?) in the writing and was a bit weak... I would also put LW2 ahead of LW1.... as the perfect mix of lightness and darkness--- but I also would have preferred the original ending stay and Riggs die in Murtagh's arms and Murtagh be buried next to his wife. Also- LW1 was so necessary for LW2, that I kind of see them as a part 1 & 2 of the same story. I do wonder if Donner felt some sort of satisfaction that he was able to have a part 2 under his watch that went through without any interference and within his power to not be pulled off it, like STM/SII... |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 24, 2023 2:15:12 GMT -5
I also like LW2 better than the first. I found the first to be quite depressing and hard going. Also much prefer 4 to 3. LW3 is pretty bland and feels more like a made-for-television movie. Very forgettable. I would rank them 2, 4, 1, 3 LW2 is better, with some added lightness that worked, I agree... LW3 is lacking, though the addition of Rousso I thought was nice. But--- yeah the script felt like it bent a little too much towards the lighter direction (some bad sitcom material)- not dissimiliar to Thor 4 versus Thor 3--- but it was still entertaining enough, but, yeah, tv movie- particularly with not much changing by the end with only the bit with Rene Rousso's character added (that was actually nice). LW4 did have Jet Li- but -it was reported (and it comes off as) that LW4 was rushed because of a rare op for scheduling.... and it was to me entertaining enough- but it's one of those cases where I was familiar enough at that time to know the difficulty of having ANY good sequel show up with the same cast & creative team (still is a rare enough thing actually)- so.... much like how I appreciate the imperfect (to say the least) Superman IV- it was a case of: "it's just cool to see some enjoyable scenes with characters I liked one more time with the same case- anything else is bonus..." Haven't seen the tv show, though- feels weird and unnecessary without Gibson and Glover (who both were suprisingly unknowns with the first one). |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 14:05:31 GMT -5
@cam
Interesting that you say Gibson was unknown because I actually had seen him in a film called Gallipolli in 1986(again on VHS), during a History class at school!
The film came out in 1981, so was already a couple of years old by the point we watched it in that History class......but that was my personal introduction to Gibson.
Of course most knew him from the Mad Max series.
I never got to see those until the late 80s,again on VHS.
Miss those days.......now you can just pop on you tube and see anything.
You had to work much harder to discover stuff back then.
Remember seeing the Quads and even the trailers on TV for Lethal Weapon 1 in 1987 , and recognizing him from the Gallipoli flick- lol
I had a school friend who was basically an action movie nut......so all that stuff from the mid to late 80s(Running Man,Cobra,Rambo 1 & 2 ,Over The Top,Commando,Terminator,Lethal Weapon 1,Die Hard 1 ,Total Recall ect ect......he would get on VHS courtesy of his parents 6 months to a year after their theatrical releases......and we would consume them that way as we were still underage for seeing them in the cinema lol!
But Gibson is on record as saying that Donner salvaged his career in the mid 80s with LW1, as he felt he was drifting at the time.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Apr 30, 2023 14:42:04 GMT -5
So as it stands:
Donner films I have never seen:
Assassins
Maverick
Inside Moves
Timeline
16 Blocks
Salt n' Peppa
Lester films I have never seen:
The Ritz
Royal Flash
It's Trad Dad
Mouse On The Moon
Finders Keepers
Return Of The Muskateers
Best Non Supes Donner film that I have seen:
Lethal Weapon 2/Ladyhawke
(used to think it was the Omen)
Worst Non Supes Donner film that I have seen.
The Toy
Best Non Supes Lester film that I have seen:
Petulia(but need to see it again.....is available on DVD.....but this needs to be seen in Blu Ray/UHD).
Worst Non Supes Lester film that I have seen:
Butch and Sundance: The Early Years
Looking to make my way into some of those movies I have never seen later on in the early summer......the Donner ones are easier.....as they are available on Blu Ray, but will need to import from the US through Ebay.
Anything that was available in the UK....I have already acquired.
Most of Lester's work from the 60s is available on BFI(British Film Institute)....dedicated to Art House Cinema....so was very easy for me to scoop those up.
And again for Lester , Mouse On The Moon, It's Trad, Dad are still only available on VHS/Laserdisc(his very early 60s work).
The Ritz is available on DVD.....but want my first time watch to be on Blu.
Royal Flash is available on Blu......but there must be some demand for this one.....as prices are a touch extortionate!
So will grab some of the ones on Blu that I have not seen, in a couple of weeks.
On Edit:
Ok...so just found out that It's Trad,Dad!......just got released on Blu Ray back in Febuary- lol
This film predates A Hard Days Night.....so I am curious to see it. Will add it to the pile............but goddam.....they need to release Petulia on Blu!
Also just seen that Mouse On The Moon is available on Amazon Prime, which I do have.....but I hate streaming through my projector....image does not hold up....compression issues and such forth.....want to give all flicks I have never seen a fair shake
.....and that means either Blu or UHD presentations through a disk based format.
Streaming has someways to go still.
Salt N' Peppa is available on Blu too......would be curious to see this...as it represents Donner's second film from the 60s.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2023 16:15:26 GMT -5
So as it stands: Donner films I have never seen: Assassins Maverick Inside Moves Timeline 16 Blocks Salt n' Peppa Assassins - even though the script was credited to the Wachowskis- sadly was a bore. The ending (if I remember it right) was worse. Stallone and Banderas were great, but poor script. Maverick - is fun/silly... mainly to watch for the James Garner/Mel Gibson/Jodie Foster interplay. They're a great joy.... but it's one of those types of films where you just watch for a good time seeing actors you enjoy being in playful roles. Even with a William Goldsman script- I enjoyed it enough, though I hated the ending. (Something I oddly hate for many Donner films). Inside Moves - Nice bittersweet drama-comedy.... but mostly a positive film on a very dark subject. Timeline - a movie that reminded me of a number of Nolan films, where the 'plot gimmick'- is more important than the characters. It wasn't as horrible as many critics have said, but it's watchable if you're cleaning laundy/watching tv. 16 Blocks - decent film. Nothing wrong about it- but watched it onee, was fine, but didn't fall in love enough with the characters or scenes to need to rewatch... Salt n Peppa - never heard of it... The Toy = yeah, not Donner on a good day... I'd heard some on set problems with some of the actors- but the story seemed like a bad concept from the get go. Sad waste of talents there... |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 5, 2023 17:10:45 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts there CAM.
I am going to nab those other Donner flicks that I have not yet seen, in the next 6 weeks or so.
I think of all of them, Inside Moves is the one I am most interested in seeing, because I think it represents Donner during the period where he was at his cinematic peak, artistically speaking.
If you really look at it:
1976 - 1989
Omen
Supes
Inside Moves
The Toy
LadyHawke
Goonies
Lethal Weapon 1
Scrooged
Lethal Weapon 2
The Toy was a blip in terms of quality(hey, it happens to the best of em')!
As I said before, never saw what people(kids my age at the time, really) saw in The Goonies.
Whilst it's no The Toy(in terms of being a debacle), I think more could have been done with it, but at the same time it's still a jolly little ride.
I was 11 in 85', but I don't recall ever hearing about LadyHawke(maybe I hung out in the wrong circles- lol!).
But would much rather have seen that in the cinema, that year, than The Goonies!
But everything else in that time range(76' to 89') has a lot of class and artistic integrity.
Salt N' Peppa was made in 1968 and is Donner's second film after 1961's X1.
X1 is available on DVD and someone has uploaded it to youtube.
I have still not seen it.
But my understanding was that X1 was essentially a pseudo documentary and as such, should not be considered a proper movie.
So to all intents and purposes, Salt N' Peppa is Donner's big feature debut.
Ilya says he saw it retrospectively, in 1977(10 years after it's theatrical release),when Donner was recommended to him because of the success of The Omen.
Ilya said that Salt N' Peppa was so so.......but it was really Donner's impressive TV resume and of course, The Omen, which they were sold on.
The rest is history!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 7, 2023 1:54:39 GMT -5
Thanks for your thoughts there CAM. I am going to nab those other Donner flicks that I have not yet seen, in the next 6 weeks or so. I think of all of them, Inside Moves is the one I am most interested in seeing, because I think it represents Donner during the period where he was at his cinematic peak, artistically speaking. If you really look at it: 1976 - 1989 Omen Supes Inside Moves The Toy LadyHawke Goonies Lethal Weapon 1 Scrooged Lethal Weapon 2 The Toy was a blip in terms of quality(hey, it happens to the best of em')! As I said before, never saw what people(kids my age at the time, really) saw in The Goonies. Whilst it's no The Toy(in terms of being a debacle), I think more could have been done with it, but at the same time it's still a jolly little ride. I was 11 in 85', but I don't recall ever hearing about LadyHawke(maybe I hung out in the wrong circles- lol!). But would much rather have seen that in the cinema, that year, than The Goonies! But everything else in that time range(76' to 89') has a lot of class and artistic integrity. Salt N' Peppa was made in 1968 and is Donner's second film after 1961's X1. X1 is available on DVD and someone has uploaded it to youtube. I have still not seen it. But my understanding was that X1 was essentially a pseudo documentary and as such, should not be considered a proper movie. So to all intents and purposes, Salt N' Peppa is Donner's big feature debut. Ilya says he saw it retrospectively, in 1977(10 years after it's theatrical release),when Donner was recommended to him because of the success of The Omen. Ilya said that Salt N' Peppa was so so.......but it was really Donner's impressive TV resume and of course, The Omen, which they were sold on. The rest is history! Thanks Dejan! Always enjoy chatting- Ladyhawke I loved seeing in the theatres a few times (though mostly alone- it was a box office dud, sadly)- It's a slow start, but once it gets running, it's one of my favorites. Plus- it's Donner/Baird/Mankiewicz! With Goonies- it's hard for me to watch it nowadays - but at the time it came out, I enjoyed it enough. I think what made it such a phenom was that for so long.... prior to Speilberg/Amblin's initial surge in Hollywood--- movies for kids that adults could also enjoy and that had decent budgets and fx weren't that plentiful.... Probably the hardest for me to rewatch- it just feels a little too 'young' for me. But- when young ones in the family want to experience it, I enjoy seeing their joy with it! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 14, 2023 9:55:07 GMT -5
CAM wrote:
Ahh
Sad to hear that Ladyhawke played to empty houses.
And very envious that you got to see it on the big screen.
Very much enjoyed the Blu Ray(last viewing was on VHS somewhere in the early 90s) and agree with what you said; slightly slow start, but picks up speed, with a good emotional core to keep the audience engaged.
Cinematography is outstanding, but it's no surprise when one checks out the name;Vittorio Storaro....he was Bertolucci's right hand man for the Last Tango and The Conformist, both excellent films - Last Tango has a performance from Brando which for me personally, was his best performance of the 70s(i.e better than Supes ,The Godfather or Apocalypse).
Checking the wiki page I did not realise how many American movies Storaro has done.....Apocalypse Now,Reds and D. Tracy!....unusual for an art house -European based cinematographer.
Linking Lester to Donner, the flight coreographer for Ladyhawke was the same guy who did The Muskys and Robin & Marian.
And I agree with you that ladyHawke is his most convincing work.....although The Muskys has a kind of high paced ,kinetic type of fighting.....Ladyhawke and Robin & Marian are more in the "chess match" mould.
Also, Leo McKern, who has a nice role here as the wise old man guiding the young fellow through his paces.....is also in Help!....there, he plays the Indian Cultist chasing after the Beatles.
In fact having watched Help! and The Goonies in such close proximity, I would say they are weird mirror reflections of each other.
Both have Maguffins.
Both are a touch absurdist and comedic and are not to be taken seriously.
They feature an ensemble of young people.
Both are stylised.
Both have the imprints of another artist:
The opening to The Goonies has a very Spielbergian touch to it.......Help! has songs from The Beatles!
Weird!
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 6, 2023 17:05:39 GMT -5
So dear CAM Finally watched Inside Moves on Blu Ray! Holy moly. IMHO......... Donner's best film and whilst this may sound sacrosant....maybe even more than STM itself! But don't worry about me, Donner says so himself in the extra features on the Blu Ray! Interview was conducted in 2019, and may well be one of the last he ever gave regarding his back catalogue outside of either Supes or Lethal Weapon. In fact Donner says that after Supes ,he was offered every big blockbuster type thing going and turned them down in favour of IM. He refers to the blockbuster stuff that he refused to do as "Superman bullpoop"! But these are the types of films that I wish Donner made more of. Great acting. Fantastic storytelling. Strong chemistry between the leads. The above are normal Donner trade marks. The difference with IM is they occur within the confines of ordinary characters with normal f**ked up lives, as opposed to the extraordinary stuff(son of the devil, superheroes,medieval magic, kids on far flung adventures and cops who survived every explosion known to man - lol! ect ect It's a film strong on neorealism , in the manner of the European Waves from the late 50s and 60(Goddard,DeSica ect). No music. Let's the emotions of the characters substitute the music. A home run, creatively speaking. Donner says he was frustrated at how badly the film was marketed on it's release, resulting in so few seeing it. And it makes me sad that these types of films, even if they are made now, don't stand a chance against most of the B.S blockbusters that hog the limelight. Here's looking at you Disney! |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 6, 2023 19:44:45 GMT -5
So dear CAM Finally watched Inside Moves on Blu Ray! Holy moly. IMHO......... Donner's best film and whilst this may sound sacrosant....maybe even more than STM itself! But don't worry about me, Donner says so himself in the extra features on the Blu Ray! Interview was conducted in 2019, and may well be one of the last he ever gave regarding his back catalogue outside of either Supes or Lethal Weapon. In fact Donner says that after Supes ,he was offered every big blockbuster type thing going and turned them down in favour of IM. He refers to the blockbuster stuff that he refused to do as "Superman bullpoop"! But these are the types of films that I wish Donner made more of. Great acting. Fantastic storytelling. Strong chemistry between the leads. The above are normal Donner trade marks. The difference with IM is they occur within the confines of ordinary characters with normal f**ked up lives, as opposed to the extraordinary stuff(son of the devil, superheroes,medieval magic, kids on far flung adventures and cops who survived every explosion known to man - lol! ect ect It's a film strong on neorealism , in the manner of the European Waves from the late 50s and 60(Goddard,DeSica ect). No music. Let's the emotions of the characters substitute the music. A home run, creatively speaking. Donner says he was frustrated at how badly the film was marketed on it's release, resulting in so few seeing it. And it makes me sad that these types of films, even if they are made now, don't stand a chance against most of the B.S blockbusters that hog the limelight. Here's looking at you Disney! So glad you enjoyed it! It definitely is a 'hidden gem'! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 7, 2023 9:58:29 GMT -5
@cam
Definitely a little gem and according to the great man himself, his best film!
Not sure if you already have the BluRay but if you don't, get it!
Also found this interview from 2016 where Donner himself reiterates that he would liked to have made more intimate films:
Radioflyer is another film I have not seen either, so will have to track it down.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 7, 2023 10:02:51 GMT -5
Also watched Maverick Blu Ray for the first time too.
Enjoyed it.
It does what it says on the cover!
Provide entertainment.
Simple as.
Good period detail.
Quite a few twist and turns in the final 30 mins or so.
Maybe a little too many but that's cool.
Good to see a pre- Doc Ock Molina in action.
Nice cameos from Glover and Kidder!
Good chemistry amongst the leads.
FWIW , I am not familiar with the Maverick TV series and am generally not a fan of the Western genre.
I like the "spagetti" westerns a lot though.
In someways....Donner's Maverick is the equivalent of Lester's Butch and Sundance.
Good ,clean ,harmless Western fun.
Kinda weird how there are some artistic symmetries between the two here.
Next up from Donner's work that I have never seen:
Assassins and Timeline.
And from Lester's repetoire:
1975's Royal Flash.
This one's interesting because the Blu Ray cost a fortune....so there is some demand out there for this one....looking forward to see what all the fuss is about.
Film was a commercial bomb but that does not bother me.
Any film with Oliver Reed and Malcolm McDowell has to have some fireworks!
But as it stands......for me personally....Inside Moves is the champ amongst Donner's non Supes work.
Petulia, intimate, in a similar vain to Inside Moves , but this time focusing explicitly on the degradation of a romantic relationship, using non linear time chronologies(Nolan, take note!)....... for Lester.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 7, 2023 10:28:27 GMT -5
Radio Flyer is brutal watching because for 99 percent of it, it is so well done—- (the central conflict is child in danger) until the problematic ending tacked on. (A kinda big flaw that damages a number of Donner films).
I roughly know the concept originally planned for it, that feels more truthful but not sure how it would have landed.
the writer- director who was replaced by Donner went on to write-direct The Sandlot, a minor classic so I wonder what was so bad about his original footage?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 7, 2023 10:34:07 GMT -5
Maverick is definitely fun without a real satisfying final act. It is interesting what Donner said about the difficulty making a small film at the time (probably still is if not worse) - the financial bombs of Ladyhawke and inside move’s and radio Flyer probably didn’t help.
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 7, 2023 11:46:32 GMT -5
Radio Flyer is brutal watching because for 99 percent of it, it is so well done—- (the central conflict is child in danger) until the problematic ending tacked on. (A kinda big flaw that damages a number of Donner films). I roughly know the concept originally planned for it, that feels more truthful but not sure how it would have landed. the writer- director who was replaced by Donner went on to write-direct The Sandlot, a minor classic so I wonder what was so bad about his original footage? Evans definitely learned from his experience on Radio Flyer that helped make The Sandlot a cult hit. I believe that primarily what the problem was with his initial shoot was that he was working with much younger kids than the ones who were in The Sandlot. Getting a great performance from kids that age in a complex story like the one he was telling is quite a demand for everyone involved. it’s a very delicate situation because you’re essentially dealing with kids who were already at the learning level and comprehension of an adult, but you still have to deal with their immaturity as a child. I grew up watching Radio Flyer and can’t give enough praise to how Elijah Wood and Joseph Mazzello turned in great performances under Donner’s direction. On the other hand, Mazzello was annoying to me in Jurassic Park, but I felt good sense of quality with Wood’s work. I’m probably the only person on Earth who unashamedly loves North. There was also a lot riding on the success of Radio Flyer that was expected to be on the level of E.T. The only reason it got as far as it did was because Jon Peters, the co-chair of Columbia Pictures, praised the script to the hills and it started a massive bidding war. |
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