List of Best non-supes Donner/Lester films

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 7, 2023 11:46:32 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Jun 7, 2023 10:28:27 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Radio Flyer is brutal watching because for 99 percent of it, it is so well done—- (the central conflict is child in danger) until the problematic ending tacked on. (A kinda big flaw that damages a number of Donner films).

I roughly know the concept originally planned for it, that feels more truthful but not sure how it would have landed.

the writer- director who was replaced by Donner went on to write-direct The Sandlot, a minor classic so I wonder what was so bad about his original footage?

Evans definitely learned from his experience on Radio Flyer that helped make The Sandlot a cult hit. I believe that primarily what the problem was with his initial shoot was that he was working with much younger kids than the ones who were in The Sandlot. Getting a great performance from kids that age in a complex story like the one he was telling is quite a demand for everyone involved. it’s a very delicate situation because you’re essentially dealing with kids who were already at the learning level and comprehension of an adult, but you still have to deal with their immaturity as a child.

I grew up watching Radio Flyer and can’t give enough praise to how Elijah Wood and Joseph Mazzello turned in great performances under Donner’s direction. On the other hand, Mazzello was annoying to me in Jurassic Park, but I felt good sense of quality with Wood’s work. I’m probably the only person on Earth who unashamedly loves North.

There was also a lot riding on the success of Radio Flyer that was expected to be on the level of E.T. The only reason it got as far as it did was because Jon Peters, the co-chair of Columbia Pictures, praised the script to the hills and it started a massive bidding war.

I remember there were raves for the original script for Radio Flyer.... but that ending just undermines everything that came before it. I have major praise for a lot of Donner's skills- but coming up with the best endings for his films aren't necessarily one of them. (Though- who knows if it was a studio mandate to have a happy ending? That apparently was the case for the Al Pacino thriller years ago, with a tacked-on happy ending that felt false as could come.)

[Kamdan]

I remember there were raves for the original script for Radio Flyer.... but that ending just undermines everything that came before it. I have major praise for a lot of Donner's skills- but coming up with the best endings for his films aren't necessarily one of them. (Though- who knows if it was a studio mandate to have a happy ending? That apparently was the case for the Al Pacino thriller years ago, with a tacked-on happy ending that felt false as could come.)

I don’t think the original ending would have faired any better. It was supposed to end with the Radio Flyer airplane they built suspended by nothing in the Smithsonian where we see the two boys as adults. Apparently, that was too confusing for audiences so they had to come up with the bookend that are in the final film.

Think what hurt the ending the most was how they showed a shot of the makeshift plane flying into the sunset, giving the impression that it could make him “travel all over the world.” It was preposterous to believe he would get as far as he apparently did and that idea in the audience’s mind made it unforgiving.

I’m still puzzled over other details of the original draft, including how the flyer wasn’t even mechanical but just a seat with a pair of makeshift wings attached to it. Donner wanted his verisimilitude sensibility in this film as well but there was just too much going for this screenplay for the audience to suspend their disbelief for.

[dejan]

Jun 8, 2023 6:53:56 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I remember there were raves for the original script for Radio Flyer.... but that ending just undermines everything that came before it. I have major praise for a lot of Donner's skills- but coming up with the best endings for his films aren't necessarily one of them. (Though- who knows if it was a studio mandate to have a happy ending? That apparently was the case for the Al Pacino thriller years ago, with a tacked-on happy ending that felt false as could come.)

I don’t think the original ending would have faired any better. It was supposed to end with the Radio Flyer airplane they built suspended by nothing in the Smithsonian where we see the two boys as adults. Apparently, that was too confusing for audiences so they had to come up with the bookend that are in the final film.

Think what hurt the ending the most was how they showed a shot of the makeshift plane flying into the sunset, giving the impression that it could make him “travel all over the world.” It was preposterous to believe he would get as far as he apparently did and that idea in the audience’s mind made it unforgiving.

I’m still puzzled over other details of the original draft, including how the flyer wasn’t even mechanical but just a seat with a pair of makeshift wings attached to it. Donner wanted his verisimilitude sensibility in this film as well but there was just too much going for this screenplay for the audience to suspend their disbelief for.

FWIW guys, in the Blu Ray 2019  interview with Donner for Inside Moves, he reveals that he changed the ending of the novel for the film!
But it was a very late addition.
In IM, there is a scene towards the end ,where John Savage's character encounters a drug addicted prostitute who basically tells him to go **** himself.
It's a beautifully recited, but emotionally brutal scene, as the prostitute's predicament has only gotten worse as the story comes to a close.
Donner said that's how the film was supposed to end, more or less.
But because the actress's performance was so effective at amplifying the pessimism........that it induced him into shooting an extra scene where there was an uplifting ending!

Bless vagina Donner.......you can't fault the guy's unfailing good will to express that  everything in the end ,will always be alright.

Sounds like Radioflyer had a similar story.
Will definitely try to get hold of it later on this summer,  as I have never seen it.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 8, 2023 16:45:58 GMT -5 dejan said:

Jun 8, 2023 6:53:56 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I don’t think the original ending would have faired any better. It was supposed to end with the Radio Flyer airplane they built suspended by nothing in the Smithsonian where we see the two boys as adults. Apparently, that was too confusing for audiences so they had to come up with the bookend that are in the final film.

Think what hurt the ending the most was how they showed a shot of the makeshift plane flying into the sunset, giving the impression that it could make him “travel all over the world.” It was preposterous to believe he would get as far as he apparently did and that idea in the audience’s mind made it unforgiving.

I’m still puzzled over other details of the original draft, including how the flyer wasn’t even mechanical but just a seat with a pair of makeshift wings attached to it. Donner wanted his verisimilitude sensibility in this film as well but there was just too much going for this screenplay for the audience to suspend their disbelief for.

FWIW guys, in the Blu Ray 2019  interview with Donner for Inside Moves, he reveals that he changed the ending of the novel for the film!
But it was a very late addition.
In IM, there is a scene towards the end ,where John Savage's character encounters a drug addicted prostitute who basically tells him to go **** himself.
It's a beautifully recited, but emotionally brutal scene, as the prostitute's predicament has only gotten worse as the story comes to a close.
Donner said that's how the film was supposed to end, more or less.
But because the actress's performance was so effective at amplifying the pessimism........that it induced him into shooting an extra scene where there was an uplifting ending!

Bless vagina Donner.......you can't fault the guy's unfailing good will to express that  everything in the end ,will always be alright.

Sounds like Radioflyer had a similar story.
Will definitely try to get hold of it later on this summer,  as I have never seen it.

Donner's need to be uplifting and hopeful no matter what is a mixed blessing when it comes to storytelling, though.... impossible to hate the guy, but as far as Radio Flyer goes-

The only ending that I could think of that would have been both truthful and 'optimistic' would have been

**** SPOILER ALERT FOR THOSE WHO HAVEN"T SEEN IT ********
(Continues later on)























**********************************************
To me, that the boy 'disappears' trying to escape the impossible situation- and the other one sees him fly away (as a vague spirit or such, so it could also be imagined, much like how Donner said the OMen was designed so that it could play either way- as someone's imagination versus things as they were on the surface)- with the Radio Flyer into the stars or such- (But in reality dies and can't be found)-

Either way, it's hard to come up with a truthful solution that isn't a complete bummer to this movie!

But up that point.... extremely compelling show!

[Kamdan]

To me, that the boy 'disappears' trying to escape the impossible situation- and the other one sees him fly away (as a vague spirit or such, so it could also be imagined, much like how Donner said the OMen was designed so that it could play either way- as someone's imagination versus things as they were on the surface)- with the Radio Flyer into the stars or such- (But in reality dies and can't be found)-

Either way, it's hard to come up with a truthful solution that isn't a complete bummer to this movie!

See, the author dismisses interpretations like that and wanted the audience believe what we saw actually happened. To me, this is one of those movies that baffles me how it got made. Did no one else believe that the way the story was presented would gather exactly the reaction that you and many others had? They certainly found out quick when he gathered none of the reaction they were looking for. Sorry to dwell on this one for so long, but I always keen on this one, especially how Donner essentially played a Lester role in for this film.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 9, 2023 3:28:03 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

To me, that the boy 'disappears' trying to escape the impossible situation- and the other one sees him fly away (as a vague spirit or such, so it could also be imagined, much like how Donner said the OMen was designed so that it could play either way- as someone's imagination versus things as they were on the surface)- with the Radio Flyer into the stars or such- (But in reality dies and can't be found)-

Either way, it's hard to come up with a truthful solution that isn't a complete bummer to this movie!

See, the author dismisses interpretations like that and wanted the audience believe what we saw actually happened. To me, this is one of those movies that baffles me how it got made. Did no one else believe that the way the story was presented would gather exactly the reaction that you and many others had? They certainly found out quick when he gathered none of the reaction they were looking for. Sorry to dwell on this one for so long, but I always keen on this one, especially how Donner essentially played a Lester role in for this film.

The script (If I remember right) in a magazine article back then had "Radio Flyer' on a list of one of the best scripts that never got made- (It might have been the late "Script" magazine, along with the at the time- then-unproduced "Jacob's Ladder") but... again, as gripping as the rest of the movie was to me- it needed some satisfying ending to the story, and I'm not even sure it exists!

[crazy_asian_man]

Also.... Who is 'vagina Donner'? He seems popular in this forum. Is he at all related to Richard Donner?

[Kamdan]

The script (If I remember right) in a magazine article back then had "Radio Flyer' on a list of one of the best scripts that never got made- (It might have been the late "Script" magazine, along with the at the time- then-unproduced "Jacob's Ladder") but... again, as gripping as the rest of the movie was to me- it needed some satisfying ending to the story, and I'm not even sure it exists!

Something to commend Donner about in regard to the making of Radio Flyer was how the initial director and writer, David Mickey Evans, was allowed to stay onboard the movie throughout the production and he learned a lot from him. Donner told he bluntly that he got fucked but that everyone gets a second chance… but not a third. Evans eventually trumped his ill-fated Radio Flyer with The Sandlot.

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 9, 2023 16:52:29 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

The script (If I remember right) in a magazine article back then had "Radio Flyer' on a list of one of the best scripts that never got made- (It might have been the late "Script" magazine, along with the at the time- then-unproduced "Jacob's Ladder") but... again, as gripping as the rest of the movie was to me- it needed some satisfying ending to the story, and I'm not even sure it exists!

Something to commend Donner about in regard to the making of Radio Flyer was how the initial director and writer, David Mickey Evans, was allowed to stay onboard the movie throughout the production and he learned a lot from him. Donner told he bluntly that he got fracked but that everyone gets a second chance… but not a third. Evans eventually trumped his ill-fated Radio Flyer with The Sandlot.

Donner also reportedly was a bit of a mentor for the writer of Conspiracy Theory - Brian Helgeland- who went on to write/direct "Payback" with Mel.... which itself got a director to reshoot 30 percent of the scenes from dissatisfaction by Mel. (The movie was ok, but did feel a little 'off'- the director's cut is better, but both versions I've mostly forgotten- so... )

[dejan]

Finally got round to watching Assassins for the first time.
Not bad at all.
Loved the interplay between Banderas and Stallone in the taxi(was Mann aping this in Collateral?!)
Then the movie sagged a little after that.

I noticed one or 2 mannerisms from Banderas that may have influenced Ledger in The Dark Knight , maybe!?
But yeah.....I thought Stallone was a touch too cool throughout this one....I never felt that he was going to lose to Antonio.
Also much like Maverick, Donner got sucked into the whole one twist after another shtick, again in the final 20 mins or so.

But I think I prefer this to Conspiracy Theory , funnily enough......and may be Lethal Weapon 3(and possibly even 4!).
Might have to give it another look at.
Blu Ray has excellent picture quality.

So for Donner's action movie sextology(1987- 1998)....I would put them in this order:

LW2,LW1,Assassins tied with LW4,Conspiracy Theory, LW3.

Although that may change when I get my hands on Timeline and 16 Blocks.......but according to CAM's observations(who I trust implicitly!)....that's unlikely!

[crazy_asian_man]

Jun 12, 2023 5:46:24 GMT -5 dejan said:

Finally got round to watching Assassins for the first time.
Not bad at all.
Loved the interplay between Banderas and Stallone in the taxi(was Mann aping this in Collateral?!)
Then the movie sagged a little after that.

I noticed one or 2 mannerisms from Banderas that may have influenced Ledger in The Dark Knight , maybe!?
But yeah.....I thought Stallone was a touch too cool throughout this one....I never felt that he was going to lose to Antonio.
Also much like Maverick, Donner got sucked into the whole one twist after another shtick, again in the final 20 mins or so.

But I think I prefer this to Conspiracy Theory , funnily enough......and may be Lethal Weapon 3(and possibly even 4!).
Might have to give it another look at.
Blu Ray has excellent picture quality.

So for Donner's action movie sextology(1987- 1998)....I would put them in this order:

LW2,LW1,Assassins tied with LW4,Conspiracy Theory, LW3.

Although that may change when I get my hands on Timeline and 16 Blocks.......but according to CAM's observations(who I trust implicitly!)....that's unlikely!

I liked the characters of Banderas and Stallone, but I thought the screenplay by the Wachowski's was really lacking.

And... thanks for the trust- but I can change my mind from time to time! (Just a heads up!)

16 Blocks was fine, but not as stylish or distinctive as I thought the best of DOnner's work was.

[dejan]

Thanks for your thoughts there CAM.

Had a little fun/experiment where I watched just the first 20 mins or so of Assassins,Conspiracy Theory and LW4(in that order)......just to get a "feel" for where Donner was at, as a cinematic artist, at that point in his career(mid to late 1990s).

Overall,IMHO....the problem may ultimately stem from the fact  that the period in question, was heavily laden with that kind of action material:
Speed,Demolition Man,Die Hard 3, True Lies,Chain Reaction,True Romance ect ect

There is nothing in Donner's work in that time range(1994/1995 -1998)that is distinguishing his stuff from the rest of that action mele' in any real substantive way.
He ultimately became just one of many fishes in a very large bowl......which is a bit sad......because James Cameron,Tony Scott,Quentin Tarantino,Jan De Bont and the rest would not have had the talent to make a little gem like Inside Moves.
They are one trick ponies.......admitedly they are excellent at it......but those are the only aces they have up their sleeve.

Donner had more strings to his bow.....but unfortunately got sucked into that "action" quagmire where it became difficult to distinguish his work from a very competitive pack.
But hey...that's where the money is/was!

Now it's superhero stuff. 

[dejan]

@cam

Found this interesting interview with the Wackowskis from 1996:

web.archive.org/web/20031202184946/http://www.moviepoopshoot.com/interviews/27.html

Larry Wachowski: The film was not really based on the screenplay. The one thing that sort of bothered us is that people would blame us for the screenplay and it’s like Richard Donner is one of the few directors in Hollywood that can make whatever movie he wants exactly the way he wants it. No one will stop him and that’s essentially what happened. He brought in Brian Helgeland and they totally rewrote the script. We tried to take our names off of it but the WGA doesn’t let you. So our names are forever there.

When you think that the problem with Donner and Spengler in the late 70s was that Donner could not make the film in the manner that he wanted(SII)...........and how it contrasts with that declaration from the late 90s where Wachowski complains that Donner has too much power to make films in any manner that he sees fit!

[dejan]

Just watched Timeline.

I do recall going to the cinema to see The Two Towers,Matrix Reloaded, Terminator 3(ugh!) and The Return Of The King in 2003.
Anything else of commercial note that year, I nabbed on DVD(Pirates Of The Carrabean 1,The Fast & Furious,Hulk,Catch Me If You Can,Finding Nemo,Gangs Of New York) ect ect).

But I can't believe I missed this one back in the day.
So it's weird seeing it 20 years too late!

First off, I think the critics were a bit too harsh.
It's got some good things going for it....some decent characterisations, good plot twists,nice fight choreography and an interesting premise.
Nice to see some of the characters have some remorse/introspection when they kill someone else.
Don't get that too often in action movies.

Second.....in some weird way,it's almost as if Donner is slightly out of time himself, as if he is trying to merge 2 different movie making methods from different epochs together(epic /old school style filmmaking with post 2000s CG sensibilities i.e rapid fire editing and hand held close up camera action).

Third:
Very interesting to see what was then a new generation of actors find their feet(Gerard Butler, Paul Walker).

In fact seeing as Butler would make a name for himself barely 3 years later with Snyder's 300........it's interesting to see him recite under the old master, Donner, just a few years prior, with a far more  eclectic performance.

I would say Donner got more out of Butler in just a few minutes of screen time, than Snyder did in the entire duration of 300.
Granted, the role of Leonidas merited a somewhat stoic portrayal from Butler under Snyder......but it's still a bland performance.

Under Donner in Timeline.....it's good to see Butler flex his acting muscles more.....as opposed to his physical ones!
That may also help explain the difference in the acting charisma as seen in STM.....compared to MoS.

Anyways, in total....seeing as it still constitutes an action flick of sorts.....then for me, it has to figure in 7th place in Donner's action movies from 1987 to 2003.

LW2,LW1,Assassins,LW4,Conspiracy Theory,LW3,Timeline.

So looks like a concur with CAM in how Timeline fits in(no pun intended) the pecking order of Donner's "action" portfolio.

On edit:
Apparently the Blu Ray for this, only came out in 2020/21.....and it's a bit of a botched transfer(lots of digital artefacts ect)...so buyer beware if one is seeking to make a purchase.