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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 27, 2023 12:13:29 GMT -5
I think it might be interesting (and controversial- if done right!)
I could see Superman going to the UN like the original script, saying he would remove all nuclear weapons... but then for a realistic-like update--- there might be
with SOME applause from citizens- but then others arguing that he's playing god, and others protesting their rights to have nuclear weapons.
THAT might be interesting if rewritten for 'the real world'- fan fiction maybe?
I didn't oppose Nolan trying to do Superman 'in the real world', but the characterization of the Kents being so negative and not wanting to help the world and the blindness to collateral damage (among other gaffes) is what destroyed MOS for me.
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Post by Kamdan on Mar 27, 2023 15:52:09 GMT -5
My latest rewatch of Superman IV made me appreciate how the whole movie was treated like Silver Age/Bronze Age comic book come to life. The whole idea of everyone applauding at Superman getting rid of all nuclear weapons is extremely juvenile and how the movie handled counter action was Luthor making the deals with the weapons dealers. It’s of its era and could only come from then. If you’d try to do something like that now, you’d get a very clumsy botched attempt like how Wonder Woman 1984 turned out.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 28, 2023 1:27:06 GMT -5
My latest rewatch of Superman IV made me appreciate how the whole movie was treated like Silver Age/Bronze Age comic book come to life. The whole idea of everyone applauding at Superman getting rid of all nuclear weapons is extremely juvenile and how the movie handled counter action was Luthor making the deals with the weapons dealers. It’s of its era and could only come from then. If you’d try to do something like that now, you’d get a very clumsy botched attempt like how Wonder Woman 1984 turned out. Superman IV I argue had potential- it just had the (lack of) budget and age of some of the actors working against it. I agree- it's like a Silver Age/Bronze Age comic book movie/ fairy tale. With a proper budget and better handling, I do think it could have worked much better. If Superman IV's concept was done in a "Dark Knight" way- If done right, I could have seen that working as well--- but probably not a mainstream entertainment. (Probably too dark in tone even if done right). |
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Post by Kamdan on Mar 28, 2023 10:21:33 GMT -5
If Superman IV's concept was done in a "Dark Knight" way- If done right, I could have seen that working as well--- but probably not a mainstream entertainment. (Probably too dark in tone even if done right). I doubt that anyone back in 1987 would know how or even think of approaching a comic book movie with a “Dark Knight” mentality. All of those years in between the movies allowed people like Nolan to observe what does and doesn’t work in the genre and it let them create something of merit. The writers of Superman IV could barely scrape by with their premise of Superman dealing with a real world issue. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Mar 28, 2023 12:30:18 GMT -5
Superman IV is still better than MoS or BvS or JL
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 28, 2023 18:02:04 GMT -5
If Superman IV's concept was done in a "Dark Knight" way- If done right, I could have seen that working as well--- but probably not a mainstream entertainment. (Probably too dark in tone even if done right). I doubt that anyone back in 1987 would know how or even think of approaching a comic book movie with a “Dark Knight” mentality. All of those years in between the movies allowed people like Nolan to observe what does and doesn’t work in the genre and it let them create something of merit. The writers of Superman IV could barely scrape by with their premise of Superman dealing with a real world issue. True.... Donner/Mank's SII -if done as scripted- would have shifted Hollywood to realize that superhero films could have taken on a darker tone (prior to Batman '89).... but even then, I agree that it's unlikely that WB would have gone THAT dark or 'real' with the darker shades of society. For the tone that the movie was intended and the boxes that the screenwriters were to check off, I thought the original script was ok enough for a good lightweight superhero film (that at least would have had more weight and less cynicism than SIII). But- execution (from budget/etc.)- failed. Man of Steel was incredibly dark, but shallow and a bit reckless creatively. If MOS was dark but had a more heartful (even if naive) message like SIV- then it might have been more palatable.... (I'd bring up WW84- but that was a gigantic mess conceptually outside of the message). |
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Post by Kamdan on Mar 29, 2023 7:18:00 GMT -5
Something that I’ve taken to heart over the last couple of years along with the acceptance that Superman IV and Man of Steel are products of their time is the laments that Alan Moore has made about the success of Watchmen prompted others to emulate its story details in the major DC characters. That was not under any consideration at all when Watchmen came out and the desperation of the comic medium drove them to that point. Same can be said for comic book films in general.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 29, 2023 17:31:04 GMT -5
Superman IV is still better than MoS or BvS or JL Certainly a better Superman movie than any of them. Enough so that Snyder even ripped off IV a few times.  |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 29, 2023 17:38:31 GMT -5
I doubt that anyone back in 1987 would know how or even think of approaching a comic book movie with a “Dark Knight” mentality. All of those years in between the movies allowed people like Nolan to observe what does and doesn’t work in the genre and it let them create something of merit. The writers of Superman IV could barely scrape by with their premise of Superman dealing with a real world issue. True.... Donner/Mank's SII -if done as scripted- would have shifted Hollywood to realize that superhero films could have taken on a darker tone (prior to Batman '89).... but even then, I agree that it's unlikely that WB would have gone THAT dark or 'real' with the darker shades of society. For the tone that the movie was intended and the boxes that the screenwriters were to check off, I thought the original script was ok enough for a good lightweight superhero film (that at least would have had more weight and less cynicism than SIII). But- execution (from budget/etc.)- failed. Man of Steel was incredibly dark, but shallow and a bit reckless creatively. If MOS was dark but had a more heartful (even if naive) message like SIV- then it might have been more palatable.... (I'd bring up WW84- but that was a gigantic mess conceptually outside of the message). MOS and BVS are incredibly clumsy half@ssed attempts to tackle serious real world issues by a clueless manchild who thinks he’s a visionary. Looking back now those films didn’t at a chance. It could have been done but not by someone like him. Even Marvel made a better crack at some of the same weighty issues. Snyder abandoned his half baked ideas early on because that’s not really what he was excited to explore. Those other things were window dressing to give the veneer of maturity and complexity. Go deeper and they’re not there. |
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Post by dejan on Mar 30, 2023 14:38:59 GMT -5
Superman IV is still better than MoS or BvS or JL Certainly a better Superman movie than any of them. Enough so that Snyder even ripped off IV a few times. Very true when you think about it - nice catch. Reminds me a bit of how Peter Jackson dissed the 1976 King Kong..............but his 2006 KK version aped(no pun intended) the 76' remake in how the connection between the damsel in distress and the beast evolved into something of a more affectionate relationship...........as opposed to the 33' original where Fey Wrey screamed her way through the entire pic, in disdain of the beast....lol. |
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Post by dejan on Mar 30, 2023 15:01:56 GMT -5
I think it might be interesting (and controversial- if done right!) I could see Superman going to the UN like the original script, saying he would remove all nuclear weapons... but then for a realistic-like update--- there might be with SOME applause from citizens- but then others arguing that he's playing god, and others protesting their rights to have nuclear weapons. THAT might be interesting if rewritten for 'the real world'- fan fiction maybe? I didn't oppose Nolan trying to do Superman 'in the real world', but the characterization of the Kents being so negative and not wanting to help the world and the blindness to collateral damage (among other gaffes) is what destroyed MOS for me. It's been awhile since I watched Avengers.....but the climax of that flick had a lot of wanton destruction by both the good guys and the bad.....eg Hulk rampaging through a building, Hulk(again-lol) and Thor bringing down one of the Chitauri ships on top of what looked like Wall Street(I am not complaining! - lol).....Stark being chased by said Chitauri, bashing into the side of some building along the way......but all of that notwithstanding, you still got the impression ,allbeit implied, that the Avengers still cared about the citizens. But MoS , somehow how managed to portray Supes as someone who did not give a s**t......which is a cardinal mistake. The kiss with Lois amidst all the carnage just exacerbated the problem. To be fair Feige and Marvel in general.....had the beginning of Civil War with William Hurt lecture Cap and the rest about the wanton destruction seen in Lagos,Washington,Segovia and New York.......which was ironically ,more of a "coded" reaction to Man Of Steel than anything the Avengers ever did IMHO.....lol. Snyder then retconned the disgust to MoS's 9/11 type climax.......and put it into BvS as a plot point! |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 30, 2023 17:21:00 GMT -5
I think it might be interesting (and controversial- if done right!) I could see Superman going to the UN like the original script, saying he would remove all nuclear weapons... but then for a realistic-like update--- there might be with SOME applause from citizens- but then others arguing that he's playing god, and others protesting their rights to have nuclear weapons. THAT might be interesting if rewritten for 'the real world'- fan fiction maybe? I didn't oppose Nolan trying to do Superman 'in the real world', but the characterization of the Kents being so negative and not wanting to help the world and the blindness to collateral damage (among other gaffes) is what destroyed MOS for me. It's been awhile since I watched Avengers.....but the climax of that flick had a lot of wanton destruction by both the good guys and the bad.....eg Hulk rampaging through a building, Hulk(again-lol) and Thor bringing down one of the Chitauri ships on top of what looked like Wall Street(I am not complaining! - lol).....Stark being chased by said Chitauri, bashing into the side of some building along the way......but all of that notwithstanding, you still got the impression ,allbeit implied, that the Avengers still cared about the citizens. But MoS , somehow how managed to portray Supes as someone who did not give a s**t......which is a cardinal mistake. The kiss with Lois amidst all the carnage just exacerbated the problem. To be fair Feige and Marvel in general.....had the beginning of Civil War with William Hurt lecture Cap and the rest about the wanton destruction seen in Lagos,Washington,Segovia and New York.......which was ironically ,more of a "coded" reaction to Man Of Steel than anything the Avengers ever did IMHO.....lol. Snyder then retconned the disgust to MoS's 9/11 type climax.......and put it into BvS as a plot point! More than just implied. You actually see the Avengers saving civilians during the fight as well Captain America giving out orders to his team and law enforcement to get people to safety. You see concern for the people just like we saw in Superman II but didn't see in Man of Steel. It's why the final battle in MOS lacks that human element. Even at the end of the original Avengers movie you see a lot of talking heads and people on the street discussing the aftermath and all the destruction and the financial cost was brought up. This was the year before MOS came out. Snyder simply didn't care about all that stuff. One could argue the Avengers were a team and Superman is just one man but on the flip side Superman ended up dealing with far fewer alien invaders and was he more powerful than all of the Avengers combined. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on Mar 30, 2023 17:32:12 GMT -5
Certainly a better Superman movie than any of them. Enough so that Snyder even ripped off IV a few times. Very true when you think about it - nice catch. Reminds me a bit of how Peter Jackson dissed the 1976 King Kong..............but his 2006 KK version aped(no pun intended) the 76' remake in how the connection between the damsel in distress and the beast evolved into something of a more affectionate relationship...........as opposed to the 33' original where Fey Wrey screamed her way through the entire pic, in disdain of the beast....lol. I hate when directors do that. When they bag on previous movies based on the same subject matter before their movie is even out. If and when their new movie isn’t very good it’s utterly embarrassing. Singer did some of that with Superman Returns. Snyder did it too. One of the worst offenders was Ridley Scott while making his Robin Hood movie. He dismissed most previous Robin Hood movies as being not very impressive to him only to deliver a forgettable Robin Hood movie of his own that is the cinematic equivalent of a sleeping pill. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 30, 2023 19:14:52 GMT -5
It's been awhile since I watched Avengers.....but the climax of that flick had a lot of wanton destruction by both the good guys and the bad.....eg Hulk rampaging through a building, Hulk(again-lol) and Thor bringing down one of the Chitauri ships on top of what looked like Wall Street(I am not complaining! - lol).....Stark being chased by said Chitauri, bashing into the side of some building along the way......but all of that notwithstanding, you still got the impression ,allbeit implied, that the Avengers still cared about the citizens. But MoS , somehow how managed to portray Supes as someone who did not give a s**t......which is a cardinal mistake. The kiss with Lois amidst all the carnage just exacerbated the problem. To be fair Feige and Marvel in general.....had the beginning of Civil War with William Hurt lecture Cap and the rest about the wanton destruction seen in Lagos,Washington,Segovia and New York.......which was ironically ,more of a "coded" reaction to Man Of Steel than anything the Avengers ever did IMHO.....lol. Snyder then retconned the disgust to MoS's 9/11 type climax.......and put it into BvS as a plot point! More than just implied. You actually see the Avengers saving civilians during the fight as well Captain America giving out orders to his team and law enforcement to get people to safety. You see concern for the people just like we saw in Superman II but didn't see in Man of Steel. It's why the final battle in MOS lacks that human element. Even at the end of the original Avengers movie you see a lot of talking heads and people on the street discussing the aftermath and all the destruction and the financial cost was brought up. This was the year before MOS came out. Snyder simply didn't care about all that stuff. One could argue the Avengers were a team and Superman is just one man but on the flip side Superman ended up dealing with far fewer alien invaders and was he more powerful than all of the Avengers combined. Dejan & Metallo, both great points with the Avengers--- but also, if it had included (and it REALLY should have included) the deleted scene with the aliens attacking a family and captain america directly saving them- it would have added the extra 'edge'and added more humanity and weight to what I felt was a slightly too-jokey NY battle in the Avenegers. (though not NEARLY as too-jokey as Lester's SII battle) |
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Post by atp on Mar 31, 2023 11:43:36 GMT -5
Very true when you think about it - nice catch. Reminds me a bit of how Peter Jackson dissed the 1976 King Kong..............but his 2006 KK version aped(no pun intended) the 76' remake in how the connection between the damsel in distress and the beast evolved into something of a more affectionate relationship...........as opposed to the 33' original where Fey Wrey screamed her way through the entire pic, in disdain of the beast....lol. I hate when directors do that. When they bag on previous movies based on the same subject matter before their movie is even out. If and when their new movie isn’t very good it’s utterly embarrassing. Singer did some of that with Superman Returns. Snyder did it too. One of the worst offenders was Ridley Scott while making his Robin Hood movie. He dismissed most previous Robin Hood movies as being not very impressive to him only to deliver a forgettable Robin Hood movie of his own that is the cinematic equivalent of a sleeping pill. Selutron had the same attitude towards other fan cutters making cuts of S2. All the previous fan cuts were dismissed, and supposedly only a "professional" editor was allowed to tackle S2. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Mar 31, 2023 18:54:42 GMT -5
I hate when directors do that. When they bag on previous movies based on the same subject matter before their movie is even out. If and when their new movie isn’t very good it’s utterly embarrassing. Singer did some of that with Superman Returns. Snyder did it too. One of the worst offenders was Ridley Scott while making his Robin Hood movie. He dismissed most previous Robin Hood movies as being not very impressive to him only to deliver a forgettable Robin Hood movie of his own that is the cinematic equivalent of a sleeping pill. Selutron had the same attitude towards other fan cutters making cuts of S2. All the previous fan cuts were dismissed, and supposedly only a "professional" editor was allowed to tackle S2. Lester was (imo) ultimately the worst offender- dismissing the script for SII and assuming his version was going to be superior to Donner's, knowing there was no way (and still isn't really) that anyone would be able to say anything with Donner unable to complete shooting.  |
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