|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2023 3:51:38 GMT -5
This is cool- like every fan cut, there's things that I'm impressed by and things that my gut disagrees with- either in taking things a step too far from the original for comfort--- or an omission that I feel should have been left in... all subjective- though- I always appreciate it when a fan offers it up on youtube or other site - especially knowing how long even one rotoscoped shot can take! Any thoughts on this? I have some, but thought to put this up there first... www.youtube.com/watch?v=77IrNC9KEIA |
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,822 
|
Post by atp on Apr 25, 2023 8:27:01 GMT -5
I switched it off as soon as I saw Man of Steel footage
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2023 11:25:10 GMT -5
I switched it off as soon as I saw Man of Steel footage There's some very nice fx shots in the trailer- I really liked some of the enhancements to Krypton in particular. The expansion of the dam break is neat.... but makes it look like Superman just chose to save Jimmy over the thousands of others. The whole might work, but- I agree- the Man of Steel choices take me out of it, enhanced or not. |
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 17,069
|
Post by Metallo on Apr 28, 2023 10:03:39 GMT -5
I switched it off as soon as I saw Man of Steel footage Yeah that kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it? Took me right out of it. I’d much rather they hire some talented cg artist (maybe the guy that did the Superman vs Hulk series) to create new digital shots that are closer in style to the Donner films if they must have some more “modern” shots in their project. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 3, 2023 15:45:01 GMT -5
I switched it off as soon as I saw Man of Steel footage Yeah that kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it? Took me right out of it. I’d much rather they hire some talented cg artist (maybe the guy that did the Superman vs Hulk series) to create new digital shots that are closer in style to the Donner films if they must have some more “modern” shots in their project. I've kind of come to terms that most all of the fan cuts will never fulfill all my wishlists of how I'd want the 'ultimate' cut would be for SII with so much working against it (primarily lack of Donner footage actually shot and/or available)- but when I see even one fx shot or even one minor change that fits almost seamlessly in and enhances it- I feel it's already made it worth checking out. Having said that, I would have LOVED to have had the CGI talent of the guy who did "Superman vs Hulk" series to completely reconstruct the Metro battle as intended by Mank/Donner and/or the other couple of scenes that were essential that Donner couldn't shoot.. |
|
atp
New Member
Resident Troll
Posts: 6,822
|
Post by atp on May 3, 2023 23:01:32 GMT -5
Yeah that kind of defeats the purpose doesn’t it? Took me right out of it. I’d much rather they hire some talented cg artist (maybe the guy that did the Superman vs Hulk series) to create new digital shots that are closer in style to the Donner films if they must have some more “modern” shots in their project. I've kind of come to terms that most all of the fan cuts will never fulfill all my wishlists of how I'd want the 'ultimate' cut would be for SII with so much working against it (primarily lack of Donner footage actually shot and/or available)- but when I see even one fx shot or even one minor change that fits almost seamlessly in and enhances it- I feel it's already made it worth checking out. Having said that, I would have LOVED to have had the CGI talent of the guy who did "Superman vs Hulk" series to completely reconstruct the Metro battle as intended by Mank/Donner and/or the other couple of scenes that were essential that Donner couldn't shoot.. There's only one scene in S2 that needs CGI. It has to do with villains and the world. |
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 850
|
Post by dejan on May 4, 2023 16:49:13 GMT -5
I've kind of come to terms that most all of the fan cuts will never fulfill all my wishlists of how I'd want the 'ultimate' cut would be for SII with so much working against it (primarily lack of Donner footage actually shot and/or available)- but when I see even one fx shot or even one minor change that fits almost seamlessly in and enhances it- I feel it's already made it worth checking out. Having said that, I would have LOVED to have had the CGI talent of the guy who did "Superman vs Hulk" series to completely reconstruct the Metro battle as intended by Mank/Donner and/or the other couple of scenes that were essential that Donner couldn't shoot.. There's only one scene in S2 that needs CGI. It has to do with villains and the world. The problem has always been integration , when it comes to fan cuts and how they intertwine their ideas with the original work. To teach a CG artist in 2023 to have the "vision" of a filmaker/special FX fellow from the 1970s/1980s is almost nigh on impossible. Star Trek The Motion Picture : Director's Edition did do this to a degree....but there is stuff even in that, which is definitely not representative of the artistic feeling of 1970s FX. The extra panning shots Vger positively reek of post 2000s sensibilities. Not sure if you folks have seen this one for Star Wars: Don't get me wrong. It looks cool and I can definitely appreciate the effort. The problem is that it does not jive with the unaltered 1977 live action footage either side of the altered Obi-Vader fight sequence. Any work with Supes is going to face the same problems. Fan cutters just can't help themselves in their over indulgences. On Edit: Actually this one is a hoot - shows how fan cuts can alter stories too.......might test your knowledge on the newer stuff! |
|
Metallo
New Member
The worlds finest heroes
Posts: 17,069
|
Post by Metallo on May 4, 2023 18:05:42 GMT -5
There's only one scene in S2 that needs CGI. It has to do with villains and the world. The problem has always been integration , when it comes to fan cuts and how they intertwine their ideas with the original work. To teach a CG artist in 2023 to have the "vision" of a filmaker/special FX fellow from the 1970s/1980s is almost nigh on impossible. Star Trek The Motion Picture : Director's Edition did do this to a degree....but there is stuff even in that, which is definitely not representative of the artistic feeling of 1970s FX. The extra panning shots Vger positively reek of post 2000s sensibilities. Not sure if you folks have seen this one for Star Wars: Don't get me wrong. It looks cool and I can definitely appreciate the effort. The problem is that it does not jive with the unaltered 1977 live action footage either side of the altered Obi-Vader fight sequence. Any work with Supes is going to face the same problems. Fan cutters just can't help themselves in their over indulgences. On Edit: Actually this one is a hoot - shows how fan cuts can alter stories too.......might test your knowledge on the newer stuff! Yes the “modernized” duel between Obi Wan and Vader got a lot of talk around here. I think we all came to the same conclusion. It’s cool but doesn’t fit within the film at all since it takes you right out of the experience. Very much a case of styles, fx technology, and eras clashing instead of flowing seamlessly together. You’re right in saying that redone effects and shots decades later with modern techniques often run into the same problem of not fitting with the original work. They usually don’t fit the original vision or era naturally. I love Star Trek TOS remastered and think it’s one that tried to stay faithful to the spirit of the old effects shots but even with that project the new shots are clearly cgi and the “camera” moves are a little more modern. It’s even more noticeable than what was done with the directors cut of Star Trek the motion picture. I think oddly enough one of the better updates to an older film is the 2004 special edition release of Highlander II. It’s even more funny when you think about how bad the film is especially the theatrical cut. You can’t polish a cinematic turd but it’s one of the best attempts I’ve ever seen. The movie had been tinkered with years before with the Renegade cut but the 2004 special edition took it a step further and updated all the poor visuals and bad artistic choices in a way that at least felt authentic to the way the film was originally intended when it was being made. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2023 16:00:30 GMT -5
There's only one scene in S2 that needs CGI. It has to do with villains and the world. The problem has always been integration , when it comes to fan cuts and how they intertwine their ideas with the original work. To teach a CG artist in 2023 to have the "vision" of a filmaker/special FX fellow from the 1970s/1980s is almost nigh on impossible. Star Trek The Motion Picture : Director's Edition did do this to a degree....but there is stuff even in that, which is definitely not representative of the artistic feeling of 1970s FX. The extra panning shots Vger positively reek of post 2000s sensibilities. Not sure if you folks have seen this one for Star Wars: Don't get me wrong. It looks cool and I can definitely appreciate the effort. The problem is that it does not jive with the unaltered 1977 live action footage either side of the altered Obi-Vader fight sequence. Any work with Supes is going to face the same problems. Good point.... I give Selutron credit for- (and the awesome Booshman who pointed this out to me!  ) using matching footage 'The Swarm' footage in forming his fan edit..... which was listed at 1978- within a year of Supes' release- also 'big budget' (for the time)--- and especially fit because Swarm outtakes were imported into STM's earthquake sequence! It does seem to mostly fit- same aesthetics, actual time frame, way of shooting, etc- (Similarly I'd read outtakes of 'The Shining' were used for a cut of Blade Runner) When Lucas did his prequels, one thing that bothered me (and many other people apparently) was making so much of it such that it did NOT feel like it came from the same original series. Mandalorian (in the first season at least for the most part) was shot in a similar style as the original SW trilogy.... Also, I found it interesting that Bryan Singer said he would go back and look at his original x-men movies to match energy and style of the original x-men films when he came back for DOFP and Age of Apocalypse---- and - while the latter one is severely flawed (mostly storywise)- they do feel like they match in the same universe. While I'm horrified at the situation of A.I. and potential bad players, I do wonder if one plus is that we can get a "Donner Cut" artificially done that can generate footage to really feel like what we wanted way back when! |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2023 16:06:00 GMT -5
Side note on the Swarm on the internet:
"The film received overwhelmingly negative reviews from critics and was a box-office bomb, although praise was given to the costume design. It has been considered to be one of the worst films ever made."
:0
|
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 850
|
Post by dejan on May 11, 2023 16:32:40 GMT -5
Metallo and CAM Regarding Highlander. I was actually one of those who saw the renegade version first, without realizing that the actual theatrical version was different! Still thought it was s**t, though! I have never seen the cleaned up 2004 version. But just like George's rehashing of Star Wars in 1997, at least the Highander stuff was re-imagined by people(be it in 1995 or 2004) who were involved with the original production. Superman II came out on laserdisc in 1996 with a then spanky new widescreen transfer(first time on home video). On release of that disc ,one of the reviewers commented on how it would have been cool if the original production staff could have updated Superman I & II's effects in line with what ILM was rumored to be doing with Star Wars at roughly the same time! I do often wonder if Lester and Donner had made peace with each other in the mid 90s.....and attempted a special edition of sorts for SII using 1990s CG tech and a decent budget, plus the availability of all the relevant actors(all still alive at the time).....how that would have turned out. My gut feeling is that whatever new footage they came up with, it would still have had a 1990s aesthetic feel to it. Also to CAM specifically: I am curious, which shots in the earthquake sequence from STM, are from The Swarm?! I never knew that.........that's why I love this place...get to learn somethin new everyday.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2023 0:34:34 GMT -5
Metallo and CAM I do often wonder if Lester and Donner had made peace with each other in the mid 90s.....and attempted a special edition of sorts for SII using 1990s CG tech and a decent budget, plus the availability of all the relevant actors(all still alive at the time).....how that would have turned out. My gut feeling is that whatever new footage they came up with, it would still have had a 1990s aesthetic feel to it. Also to CAM specifically: I am curious, which shots in the earthquake sequence from STM, are from The Swarm?! I never knew that.........that's why I love this place...get to learn somethin new everyday. It's a pity that Lester and Donner weren't able to make peace with one another while Donner was still alive- but.... even if they had, I don't know if Donner would have had the energy to go back and shoot what was missing even with the actors still living. As it was - with the two year (I think) gap in time for resuming shooting for SII, some of the actors did age significantly.... can't imagine how much worse it might have looked in continuity, but even so--- I would have been totally for it. The bit with the train and the earthquake endangering it I believe was from outtakes from the Swarm- but I'm not sure about the bit with the conductors at the front of the train. I did buy the Swarm to check it out- and you can tell some of the similiarities right off the bat when you see the train sequence in the Swarm... |
|
|
|
Post by Kamdan on May 12, 2023 6:44:20 GMT -5
I’ve theorized about why Donner held such hard feelings about Lester. When Lester arrived as the liaison between Donner and the Salkinds, everyone could see the writing on the wall that he was there to replace Donner. There must have been a conversation that occurred where Lester assured Donner that he had no interest in taking over and that let his defenses down to listen to his contributions that led to Lois’ death in the first film and the turning the world backwards sequence.
Now, after Superman: The Movie grosses $300 million, Lester is able to cease an opportunity to helm the sequel that easily grossed over half of what the first one did. That is a big feather in Lester’s cap and is a natural choice due to his time spent working with Donner, who apparently didn’t catch the gist that he was fired due to his comments to the press. Donner may have also had false pretenses from Warners to make those statements once they saw what a good job he was doing with Superman that they wanted to buy out the Salkinds’ stake, who absolutely would not do that after the success of the first film.
While Tom Mankiewicz was convinced that the Salkinds would have made Donner finish II if the first had flopped, I’m just as convinced that once Donner was told that Marlon Brando would have to be removed from the sequel, he would have quit and Lester would have taken over as well in that scenario. I’m also sure that Donner held a grudge against Christopher Reeve for not refusing to return for II and that led to his and Mankiewicz’s refusal to be involved with IV. They likely only made amends when Reeve had his accident. There was never an opportunity like for Donner and Lester to connect again so it was left unresolved. Can’t blame Lester for keeping to himself after all of these decades, especially after Donner blew him off on the potential of sharing director’s credit. Donner came out alright in the end of it all, by him having an office at Warners for his entire post-Superman while Lester never had a success that matched Superman II following its release.
|
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 12, 2023 23:45:23 GMT -5
I’ve theorized about why Donner held such hard feelings about Lester. When Lester arrived as the liaison between Donner and the Salkinds, everyone could see the writing on the wall that he was there to replace Donner. There must have been a conversation that occurred where Lester assured Donner that he had no interest in taking over and that let his defenses down to listen to his contributions that led to Lois’ death in the first film and the turning the world backwards sequence. Now, after Superman: The Movie grosses $300 million, Lester is able to cease an opportunity to helm the sequel that easily grossed over half of what the first one did. That is a big feather in Lester’s cap and is a natural choice due to his time spent working with Donner, who apparently didn’t catch the gist that he was fired due to his comments to the press. Donner may have also had false pretenses from Warners to make those statements once they saw what a good job he was doing with Superman that they wanted to buy out the Salkinds’ stake, who absolutely would not do that after the success of the first film. While Tom Mankiewicz was convinced that the Salkinds would have made Donner finish II if the first had flopped, I’m just as convinced that once Donner was told that Marlon Brando would have to be removed from the sequel, he would have quit and Lester would have taken over as well in that scenario. I’m also sure that Donner held a grudge against Christopher Reeve for not refusing to return for II and that led to his and Mankiewicz’s refusal to be involved with IV. They likely only made amends when Reeve had his accident. There was never an opportunity like for Donner and Lester to connect again so it was left unresolved. Can’t blame Lester for keeping to himself after all of these decades, especially after Donner blew him off on the potential of sharing director’s credit. Donner came out alright in the end of it all, by him having an office at Warners for his entire post-Superman while Lester never had a success that matched Superman II following its release. I think there's probably enough Hollywood people 'in the know' who worked on STM and SII to know who was the most responsible for STM (which laid the groundwork) and SII's success. It is telling that many prominent filmmakers have come out and praised Donner's work on STM for inpsiring their work... Lester I agree never had a success after directing inserts and reshoots for Donner's SII. While people don't hate Lester, I think he'll always be more well known for the Beatles' "Help" and I'll always adore his work on "Three Musketeers". Honestly, if he had tried to stick to Mank's original script for SII (outside of rewriting for Brando--- though I would have just recast and kept the original script)... I wouldn't have been fuming for decades at what he did. Even if shot cheaper, I would have preferred the original script and intent. |
|
|
|
Post by Kamdan on May 13, 2023 5:23:38 GMT -5
Mankiewicz’s unwillingness to return out of loyalty to Donner is what led them to return to the original Newmans rewrite. As we’re learning (again) with the ongoing writers strike, movie productions need writers to realize scenes that the producers and directors want to see. Donner brought in Mankiewicz, despite his initial protests and reluctance to do script rewrites, instead of the original writers because Donner knew that he could realize the verisimilitude vision he had with the material based on Mankiewicz’s work on James Bond, which was the appropriate franchise to scale this production to. Lester didn’t feel that strongly and didn’t pursue Mankiewicz’s involvement other than just accepting his decline and moving on to other ready material that seemed to be satisfactory for all parties involved.
If you compare the Mankiewicz screenplay to the first film to the final film, you’ll notice a lot of differences that would have been detrimental if they were included. For instance, there would wouldn’t have been any emotional resonance in Clark’s goodbye to his mother if we would have seen him cut the entire wheat crop at super speed before he left. Another big one would have been when Superman manages to save Lois from being buried and the joke of the scene is Superman apologizes for the car’s damage and she says it’s a rental.
Differences like those don’t make me believe that Mankiewicz’s script is an absolute testament as to what they would have delivered to us if they stayed on. This is a major contentment I have with the Richard Donner Cut. Thau just cut it together following that screenplay and left little to no imagination in regard that II could not be treated as the second part because the changed ending of the first film made it self contained. The Lester reshoots rightfully changed the narrative so that we don’t open immediately with the Daily Planet’s coverage of Luthor’s bomb scheme, which makes it seem like Luthor spent just one night in jail. The time between the first and second allows a bit of breathing room and helps the sequel stand more on its own two feet. The Donner Cut is not capable of doing that.
|
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 850
|
Post by dejan on May 13, 2023 8:46:58 GMT -5
I’ve theorized about why Donner held such hard feelings about Lester. When Lester arrived as the liaison between Donner and the Salkinds, everyone could see the writing on the wall that he was there to replace Donner. There must have been a conversation that occurred where Lester assured Donner that he had no interest in taking over and that let his defenses down to listen to his contributions that led to Lois’ death in the first film and the turning the world backwards sequence. Now, after Superman: The Movie grosses $300 million, Lester is able to cease an opportunity to helm the sequel that easily grossed over half of what the first one did. That is a big feather in Lester’s cap and is a natural choice due to his time spent working with Donner, who apparently didn’t catch the gist that he was fired due to his comments to the press. Donner may have also had false pretenses from Warners to make those statements once they saw what a good job he was doing with Superman that they wanted to buy out the Salkinds’ stake, who absolutely would not do that after the success of the first film. While Tom Mankiewicz was convinced that the Salkinds would have made Donner finish II if the first had flopped, I’m just as convinced that once Donner was told that Marlon Brando would have to be removed from the sequel, he would have quit and Lester would have taken over as well in that scenario. I’m also sure that Donner held a grudge against Christopher Reeve for not refusing to return for II and that led to his and Mankiewicz’s refusal to be involved with IV. They likely only made amends when Reeve had his accident. There was never an opportunity like for Donner and Lester to connect again so it was left unresolved. Can’t blame Lester for keeping to himself after all of these decades, especially after Donner blew him off on the potential of sharing director’s credit. Donner came out alright in the end of it all, by him having an office at Warners for his entire post-Superman while Lester never had a success that matched Superman II following its release. I think there's probably enough Hollywood people 'in the know' who worked on STM and SII to know who was the most responsible for STM (which laid the groundwork) and SII's success. It is telling that many prominent filmmakers have come out and praised Donner's work on STM for inpsiring their work... Lester I agree never had a success after directing inserts and reshoots for Donner's SII. While people don't hate Lester, I think he'll always be more well known for the Beatles' "Help" and I'll always adore his work on "Three Musketeers". Honestly, if he had tried to stick to Mank's original script for SII (outside of rewriting for Brando--- though I would have just recast and kept the original script)... I wouldn't have been fuming for decades at what he did. Even if shot cheaper, I would have preferred the original script and intent. Does one of those prominent filmakers include non other than Martin Scorsese? In the inside sleeve for the 2013 Blu Ray of Help!, Scorese highlights The Beatles flicks,The Knack & How To Get It, How I Won The War and most significantly, Petulia, as being an integral part of experimental 1960s cinema. He places Lester alongside Fellini,Resnais,Goddard,Truffeaut and Antonioni, in terms of breaking new ground with the film making medium, blending surrealism with neorealism in varing degrees, jump cutting, non linear structures, hand held tracking shots, ambigous narratives , the newly found use of color ect , ect. Quite frankly,IMHO, the European New Wave was simply on a different plane to pretty much anything the Brits or Americans were doing at that time. Indeed, a new generation of filmakers(Coppola,Scorsese,Lucas,Spielberg,DePalma) StateSide, were heavily influenced by this revolution. Lucas's worst performing flick commercially speaking, THX 1138, was not only his most experimental movie,but also the film that was most highly influenced by this New Wave. And who does Lucas cite as his cinematic hero? Fellini. Lester is also in there somewhere too. And from an artistic standpoint, I'll take American Graffitti or THX over the Phantom Menace and maybe even Star Wars itself, any day of the week! David Lean(who was a friend of Lester) claimed that Petulia was like an artistic vindication for filmakers in general. In 1967 ,Orson Welles, no less, said that of the new generation of American filmakers, Lester and Kubrik were his 2 personal favourites! You can't get higher praise than that. I don't recall either Welles,Lean or Scorsese , saying anything about Donner(who was roughly the same age as Lester), at any point. So, all I am saying is that Lester's work(outside of The Beatles and The Muskateers and even Supes) has been appreciated by some of the foremost filmmaking talents of the post war period. |
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 850
|
Post by dejan on May 13, 2023 9:05:20 GMT -5
Mankiewicz’s unwillingness to return out of loyalty to Donner is what led them to return to the original Newmans rewrite. As we’re learning (again) with the ongoing writers strike, movie productions need writers to realize scenes that the producers and directors want to see. Donner brought in Mankiewicz, despite his initial protests and reluctance to do script rewrites, instead of the original writers because Donner knew that he could realize the verisimilitude vision he had with the material based on Mankiewicz’s work on James Bond, which was the appropriate franchise to scale this production to. Lester didn’t feel that strongly and didn’t pursue Mankiewicz’s involvement other than just accepting his decline and moving on to other ready material that seemed to be satisfactory for all parties involved. If you compare the Mankiewicz screenplay to the first film to the final film, you’ll notice a lot of differences that would have been detrimental if they were included. For instance, there would wouldn’t have been any emotional resonance in Clark’s goodbye to his mother if we would have seen him cut the entire wheat crop at super speed before he left. Another big one would have been when Superman manages to save Lois from being buried and the joke of the scene is Superman apologizes for the car’s damage and she says it’s a rental. Differences like those don’t make me believe that Mankiewicz’s script is an absolute testament as to what they would have delivered to us if they stayed on. This is a major contentment I have with the Richard Donner Cut. Thau just cut it together following that screenplay and left little to no imagination in regard that II could not be treated as the second part because the changed ending of the first film made it self contained. The Lester reshoots rightfully changed the narrative so that we don’t open immediately with the Daily Planet’s coverage of Luthor’s bomb scheme, which makes it seem like Luthor spent just one night in jail. The time between the first and second allows a bit of breathing room and helps the sequel stand more on its own two feet. The Donner Cut is not capable of doing that. Nice synopsis there,Kamdan. IMHO, the timing of the moratorium imposed on SII during the original production schedule was key. In retrospect, it was the signal that Donner was going to be fired no matter what. There was just enough of some of the expensive set pieces from SII already in the can(moon and White House scenes) which the Salks could use as a springboard/fulcrum to complete the rest of the picture without having to rebuild from scratch. Donner's slagging off of Spengler in the press(whilst even justified) was the last straw....or if I am being cynical.....maybe even induced(i.e the Salks provoked Donner into making public insults), which they could then utilise as the reason for his subsequent firing, without ultimately, too much sympathy from the outside world at large. A false flag of sorts! According to Petrou, Donner "enthusiastically agreed" to the morotarium on SII. The fact that it was Lester who came up with the idea indicates to me that this is the smoking gun for an inside job. The guy who proposes the moratorium on SII.....is the same guy who gets the job to complete said film! And this guy was intimately associated with the production schedule........Lester knew how much was still needed for SII's completion, the moment that moratorium was announced. But if Donner had reflected for just a moment.....he must have realized that his own position was now very pracarious for SII. But perhaps he was so wrapped up on finishing STM.....that he was oblivious to the machinations of the Salks and Lester. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 14, 2023 1:24:50 GMT -5
I think there's probably enough Hollywood people 'in the know' who worked on STM and SII to know who was the most responsible for STM (which laid the groundwork) and SII's success. It is telling that many prominent filmmakers have come out and praised Donner's work on STM for inpsiring their work... Lester I agree never had a success after directing inserts and reshoots for Donner's SII. While people don't hate Lester, I think he'll always be more well known for the Beatles' "Help" and I'll always adore his work on "Three Musketeers". Honestly, if he had tried to stick to Mank's original script for SII (outside of rewriting for Brando--- though I would have just recast and kept the original script)... I wouldn't have been fuming for decades at what he did. Even if shot cheaper, I would have preferred the original script and intent. Does one of those prominent filmakers include non other than Martin Scorsese? In the inside sleeve for the 2013 Blu Ray of Help!, Scorese highlights The Beatles flicks,The Knack & How To Get It, How I Won The War and most significantly, Petulia, as being an integral part of experimental 1960s cinema. He places Lester alongside Fellini,Resnais,Goddard,Truffeaut and Antonioni, in terms of breaking new ground with the film making medium, blending surrealism with neorealism in varing degrees, jump cutting, non linear structures, hand held tracking shots, ambigous narratives , the newly found use of color ect , ect. Quite frankly,IMHO, the European New Wave was simply on a different plane to pretty much anything the Brits or Americans were doing at that time. Indeed, a new generation of filmakers(Coppola,Scorsese,Lucas,Spielberg,DePalma) StateSide, were heavily influenced by this revolution. Lucas's worst performing flick commercially speaking, THX 1138, was not only his most experimental movie,but also the film that was most highly influenced by this New Wave. And who does Lucas cite as his cinematic hero? Fellini. Lester is also in there somewhere too. And from an artistic standpoint, I'll take American Graffitti or THX over the Phantom Menace and maybe even Star Wars itself, any day of the week! David Lean(who was a friend of Lester) claimed that Petulia was like an artistic vindication for filmakers in general. In 1967 ,Orson Welles, no less, said that of the new generation of American filmakers, Lester and Kubrik were his 2 personal favourites! You can't get higher praise than that. I don't recall either Welles,Lean or Scorsese , saying anything about Donner(who was roughly the same age as Lester), at any point. So, all I am saying is that Lester's work(outside of The Beatles and The Muskateers and even Supes) has been appreciated by some of the foremost filmmaking talents of the post war period. scorcese, the bitter director who said comic book films (so this apparently includes stm and the dark knight) aren’t cinema?  Also there is higher praise Lester could have gotten than Wells- from crazy Asian man, and I already gave it for 3 musketeers. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 14, 2023 1:42:06 GMT -5
Mankiewicz’s unwillingness to return out of loyalty to Donner is what led them to return to the original Newmans rewrite. As we’re learning (again) with the ongoing writers strike, movie productions need writers to realize scenes that the producers and directors want to see. Donner brought in Mankiewicz, despite his initial protests and reluctance to do script rewrites, instead of the original writers because Donner knew that he could realize the verisimilitude vision he had with the material based on Mankiewicz’s work on James Bond, which was the appropriate franchise to scale this production to. Lester didn’t feel that strongly and didn’t pursue Mankiewicz’s involvement other than just accepting his decline and moving on to other ready material that seemed to be satisfactory for all parties involved. If you compare the Mankiewicz screenplay to the first film to the final film, you’ll notice a lot of differences that would have been detrimental if they were included. For instance, there would wouldn’t have been any emotional resonance in Clark’s goodbye to his mother if we would have seen him cut the entire wheat crop at super speed before he left. Another big one would have been when Superman manages to save Lois from being buried and the joke of the scene is Superman apologizes for the car’s damage and she says it’s a rental. Differences like those don’t make me believe that Mankiewicz’s script is an absolute testament as to what they would have delivered to us if they stayed on. This is a major contentment I have with the Richard Donner Cut. Thau just cut it together following that screenplay and left little to no imagination in regard that II could not be treated as the second part because the changed ending of the first film made it self contained. The Lester reshoots rightfully changed the narrative so that we don’t open immediately with the Daily Planet’s coverage of Luthor’s bomb scheme, which makes it seem like Luthor spent just one night in jail. The time between the first and second allows a bit of breathing room and helps the sequel stand more on its own two feet. The Donner Cut is not capable of doing that. I don’t know if I agree with ‘rightfully’ changed the narrative- but I would have been fine with the changed opening had it not been so underwhelming action wise in its design. in another post I commented how the action could have been amped up with little extra expense. I acknowledge there are are changes from the Mank scripts to final work in STM but specifically for Superman 2’s script - I felt it hit all the right notes for me, that I didn’t feel with the Lester shooting script. If others loved the changes, that’s great…. But for me it was frustrating. |
|
dejan
New Member
Posts: 850
|
Post by dejan on May 14, 2023 5:00:29 GMT -5
Does one of those prominent filmakers include non other than Martin Scorsese? In the inside sleeve for the 2013 Blu Ray of Help!, Scorese highlights The Beatles flicks,The Knack & How To Get It, How I Won The War and most significantly, Petulia, as being an integral part of experimental 1960s cinema. He places Lester alongside Fellini,Resnais,Goddard,Truffeaut and Antonioni, in terms of breaking new ground with the film making medium, blending surrealism with neorealism in varing degrees, jump cutting, non linear structures, hand held tracking shots, ambigous narratives , the newly found use of color ect , ect. Quite frankly,IMHO, the European New Wave was simply on a different plane to pretty much anything the Brits or Americans were doing at that time. Indeed, a new generation of filmakers(Coppola,Scorsese,Lucas,Spielberg,DePalma) StateSide, were heavily influenced by this revolution. Lucas's worst performing flick commercially speaking, THX 1138, was not only his most experimental movie,but also the film that was most highly influenced by this New Wave. And who does Lucas cite as his cinematic hero? Fellini. Lester is also in there somewhere too. And from an artistic standpoint, I'll take American Graffitti or THX over the Phantom Menace and maybe even Star Wars itself, any day of the week! David Lean(who was a friend of Lester) claimed that Petulia was like an artistic vindication for filmakers in general. In 1967 ,Orson Welles, no less, said that of the new generation of American filmakers, Lester and Kubrik were his 2 personal favourites! You can't get higher praise than that. I don't recall either Welles,Lean or Scorsese , saying anything about Donner(who was roughly the same age as Lester), at any point. So, all I am saying is that Lester's work(outside of The Beatles and The Muskateers and even Supes) has been appreciated by some of the foremost filmmaking talents of the post war period. scorcese, the bitter director who said comic book films (so this apparently includes stm and the dark knight) aren’t cinema? Also there is higher praise Lester could have gotten than Wells- from crazy Asian man, and I already gave it for 3 musketeers. hehe Check out Donner's response to Scorsese regarding those anti-marvel statements! |
|
|
|
Post by Kamdan on May 14, 2023 16:32:53 GMT -5
Ugh, paparazzi videos like this one makes me so sick. Donner or anyone for that matter doesn’t deserve to be flagged like that with all those flashing cameras and being pounded to get a quote like the one he gave. I believe the greatest thing you can do to a celebrity is to just treat them like you would to anyone else you encounter in public spaces. Making a nuisance of yourself just makes them feel bad about the fame they’ve achieved and drives them to be more and more inclusive and defensive. I’m certain that that person that said that he would see him again Friday was an autograph hound, which are another high annoyance of mine. |
|
|
|
Post by crazy_asian_man on May 16, 2023 16:43:23 GMT -5
I have great admiration for the man- but I think those who are successful in the industry know that with so few actually able to make it—- avoiding paparazzi on the street seems like a small negative compared to the giant percent who aren’t able to break in and stay in…
Having said that- I feel worse for those actors who have to endure ‘hovering fans’ with cellphone cameras in public spots like the airport lines or supermarkets…. Saw one with Brandon Routh that was hard to watch. Stuff like that makes me feel more understanding of the paid meet and greets….. that at least has a structure of sorts.
|
|
) using matching footage 'The Swarm' footage in forming his fan edit..... which was listed at 1978- within a year of Supes' release- also 'big budget' (for the time)--- and especially fit because Swarm outtakes were imported into STM's earthquake sequence!