If not Margot- who would you have chosen?

[Metallo]

I’ve also been wondering about what we would have gotten if Adams had played Lois in Superman Returns and Bosworth had played Lois in Man of Steel. They were both miscast no matter what but maybe it would have turned out a little better if their situations had been swapped. Adams was older than Bosworth in 2004. Older than Routh as well. At least she wouldn’t have come off like a teenager the way Bosworth did. Bosworth as Lois was suggested by Kevin Spacey but she didn’t work for what they were going for. She is the same age as Cavill and may have worked better playing Lois in an full on reboot seven years later. She’d have still been young enough for that. The same problems still exist though: Zack Snyder and David Goyer and their awful directing and writing.

[dejan]

Metallo ,CAM and Kamdan


I think that Begin's and Dark Knight utilized the back story between Rachel and Bruce strictly as a plot device , as opposed to their love for each other being a central part of the narrative.

So , for instance, the big emotional crescendo at the end of Begins is really about Batman defeating his mentor,Liam Neeson, than about saving Rachel, which he had already done earlier on in the film, anyways.

The climax of STM is all about saving(or bringing back to life!) Lois.
The spectacular earthquake stuff serves almost as a kind of pre-climax.....so clever story telling from Mank and Donner there.
Hence the absolute neccessity to solidify their blossoming relationship on the balcony and the romantic flight over NYC/Metrop, earlier on in the movie.  

In The Dark Knight, you could argue Rachel's death spurs Batman onto enacting that all intrusive surveillance device that allows Freeman to track the Joker.
And obviously her death is also the thing that pushes Harvey over the edge.

It just meant that whoever played Rachel was going to have a slightly constrained latitude to their portrayal because it became more about the ramifications of the character's predicament(i.e her being in danger or her death) than the actual romance between said chraracter and the main protagonist(s).

In MoS, BvS and JL.....beating Zod,Doomsday and Steppenwolf are truly the respective climaxes of all those films....so poor Adams never had a prayer of demonstrating what she could do.

Wheras in SII(Lester and/or Donner ) it's the actual direct love relationship which is juxtaposed against the villain's destruction of earth...er....east Huston(lol!) ect ect.
You could even argue that the scene in the office that terminates  Supes's romance with Lois, at the end of the theatrical SII, is the emotional climax of the film.
Had donner finished in 79'...it would have been the same, although how it would have been done is the great mystery.

Of the modern stuff ,maybe Supes Returns came closest in having a similar romantic narrative structure to the older movies(Lois being besides Supe's bed in the hospital) , again, serving as an emotion cilmax to the flick.
But because Bosworth could not strike up a rapport with Routh(at least in his Supes guise IMHO), that emotional climax did not quite work, again , IMHO.

It just meant that Kidder had way more of a platform to exhibit her romantic/dramatic acting chops than either Adams,Holmes or Gallyenhall.

 
 

[dejan]

May 26, 2023 10:16:33 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’ve also been wondering about what we would have gotten if Adams had played Lois in Superman Returns and Bosworth had played Lois in Man of Steel. They were both miscast no matter what but maybe it would have turned out a little better if their situations had been swapped. Adams was older than Bosworth in 2004. Older than Routh as well. At least she wouldn’t have come off like a teenager the way Bosworth did. Bosworth as Lois was suggested by Kevin Spacey but she didn’t work for what they were going for. She is the same age as Cavill and may have worked better playing Lois in an full on reboot seven years later. She’d have still been young enough for that. The same problems still exist though: Zack Snyder and David Goyer and their awful directing and writing.

To be fair Kidder was a touch older than Reeve.

But of all the actors to play Supes in the movies at least, Reeve was the one who gave the impression of being older than he really was.

That probably helped Kidder and the chemistry between the two actors in general.

[Metallo]

May 26, 2023 11:25:09 GMT -5 dejan said:

May 26, 2023 10:16:33 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I’ve also been wondering about what we would have gotten if Adams had played Lois in Superman Returns and Bosworth had played Lois in Man of Steel. They were both miscast no matter what but maybe it would have turned out a little better if their situations had been swapped. Adams was older than Bosworth in 2004. Older than Routh as well. At least she wouldn’t have come off like a teenager the way Bosworth did. Bosworth as Lois was suggested by Kevin Spacey but she didn’t work for what they were going for. She is the same age as Cavill and may have worked better playing Lois in an full on reboot seven years later. She’d have still been young enough for that. The same problems still exist though: Zack Snyder and David Goyer and their awful directing and writing.

To be fair Kidder was a touch older than Reeve.

But of all the actors to play Supes in the movies at least, Reeve was the one who gave the impression of being older than he really was.

That probably helped Kidder and the chemistry between the two actors in general.

She was four years older. Most of the women playing Lois in the last 45 years have been older than the guys playing Superman.

I think the issue is Bosworth came off too young for the story they were doing and where the character was at in her life in SR. Adams age compared to Cavill’s was never an issue for me but she was also the right age that she could have done SR and been more believable as an experienced reporter and mom than Bosworth was.

[crazy_asian_man]

I hear that a lot about Bosworth- that she looked way too young to be a young mom- but I think because I knew a number of friends and acquaintences that had kids that were about the same age as the kid in SR, but still had moms that looked extremely young, that it didn't bother me from getting into the film.

Having said that- Bosworth wasn't a 10 out of 10 for playing Lois, she still lacked something that didn't feel like a great Lois, but I did feel (and still do) that she was better than some of the other actors chosen for Lois in other shows.

[Metallo]

May 26, 2023 22:25:16 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I hear that a lot about Bosworth- that she looked way too young to be a young mom- but I think because I knew a number of friends and acquaintences that had kids that were about the same age as the kid in SR, but still had moms that looked extremely young, that it didn't bother me from getting into the film.

Having said that- Bosworth wasn't a 10 out of 10 for playing Lois, she still lacked something that didn't feel like a great Lois, but I did feel (and still do) that she was better than some of the other actors chosen for Lois in other shows.

It’s not just that she was too young to be believable as that kids mom. She was also too young to have a five year history since Superman left, then years of history with him before that, then some kind of journalistic career before she met him. Bosworth looked and came off as every bit her age which wasn’t even 25 when the film was released much less when it was filmed.

For me it’s a toss up between her and Adams for worst but at least Adams was believable as an older experienced person and is a better actress. Even Tulloch looks more like Lois, acts more like Lois, has been given better material, and comes off as the age she’s playing. Bosworth looked like she belonged on the Smallville cast. She just didn’t have the maturity along with not having the tough edge.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 27, 2023 8:33:01 GMT -5 Metallo said:

May 26, 2023 22:25:16 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

I hear that a lot about Bosworth- that she looked way too young to be a young mom- but I think because I knew a number of friends and acquaintences that had kids that were about the same age as the kid in SR, but still had moms that looked extremely young, that it didn't bother me from getting into the film.

Having said that- Bosworth wasn't a 10 out of 10 for playing Lois, she still lacked something that didn't feel like a great Lois, but I did feel (and still do) that she was better than some of the other actors chosen for Lois in other shows.

It’s not just that she was too young to be believable as that kids mom. She was also too young to have a a five year history since Superman left, then years of history with him before that, then some kind of journalistic career before she met him. Bosworth looked and came off as every bit her age which wasn’t even 25 when they film was released much less when it was filmed.

For me it’s a toss up between her and Adams for worst but at least Adams was believable as an older experienced person and is a better actress. Even Tulloch looks more like Lois, acts more like Lois, has been given better material, and comes off as the age she’s playing. Bosworth looked like she belonged on the Smallville cast. She just didn’t have the maturity along with not having the tough edge.

I get what you're saying (and you make solid arguments for it)- but, it thankfully worked for me overall anyhow- but for me, what you (and others) feel about Bosworth, I felt about Katie Holmes in Batman Begins. She wasn't bad, but felt like she was in a whole other movie and stuck out like a sore thumb.

Nolan's said that it wasn't ideal to recast, but I do think Maggie Gyllenhall was better and felt far more like she belonged in that movie (though I don't know if she had the best chemistry with Bale)- Pity, though, that they didn't use Gyllenhall from the beginning to matchup with TDK.

[Metallo]

May 28, 2023 0:25:32 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

May 27, 2023 8:33:01 GMT -5 Metallo said:

It’s not just that she was too young to be believable as that kids mom. She was also too young to have a a five year history since Superman left, then years of history with him before that, then some kind of journalistic career before she met him. Bosworth looked and came off as every bit her age which wasn’t even 25 when they film was released much less when it was filmed.

For me it’s a toss up between her and Adams for worst but at least Adams was believable as an older experienced person and is a better actress. Even Tulloch looks more like Lois, acts more like Lois, has been given better material, and comes off as the age she’s playing. Bosworth looked like she belonged on the Smallville cast. She just didn’t have the maturity along with not having the tough edge.

I get what you're saying (and you make solid arguments for it)- but, it thankfully worked for me overall anyhow- but for me, what you (and others) feel about Bosworth, I felt about Katie Holmes in Batman Begins. She wasn't bad, but felt like she was in a whole other movie and stuck out like a sore thumb.

Nolan's said that it wasn't ideal to recast, but I do think Maggie Gyllenhall was better and felt far more like she belonged in that movie (though I don't know if she had the best chemistry with Bale)- Pity, though, that they didn't use Gyllenhall from the beginning to matchup with TDK.

It is very much a similar problem with Katie Holmes and Kate Bosworth. In both cases the studio and filmmakers cast someone up and upcoming to have a certain appeal. At least with Holmes Rachel Dawes was a bit younger. Bruce was just turning 30 in Batman Begins. They had a history together that went back to childhood so they could still be young and have all that backstory crammed into several years.

Superman and Lois had known each other for ten years at most by SR but Holmes was far too young for that. At the time I do think Bosworth was a better actress than Holmes but Holmes also had the luxury of playing a newly created character that people had no preexisting opinions of ideas about what she should be. Rachel was a clean slate. Lois not so much. That gave them some latitude with Rachel Dawes.