If not Margot- who would you have chosen?

[crazy_asian_man]

Ok, hotshot.... choose 3 (can put in order) of who you would choose if not Margot?

Can also fill in (if it's not listed) your dream pick that would have been appropriate at the time-

[atp]

Out of all the screen tests, only Ann Archer was ok, in my opinion.

Karen Allen might have been an interesting alternative

[crazy_asian_man]

Anne Archer was ok but if it cannot be Margot I’d go with Leslie Ann Warren- who was high on Donner’s list as well. I love Stockard in West Wing but I wouldn’t want her for Lois.

[Metallo]

I liked Anne Archer for it. Great look and a strong presence. She didn't have Kidder's energy or sense of fun but I think she was one of the better choices. Lesley Ann Warren played her screen test too much like she was still doing the 1975 tv special. That worked fine for that campy production but I thought she played too ditzy and hyperactive in her screen test for STM. She had the spunk but needed to dial it back. Raffin and Blakley had to looks for it but came off flat personality wise.

[crazy_asian_man]

Good assessments that I would agree on, for those tests. I do wonder if these really were the top contenders or if it was just a matter of sampling under a deadline for the dvds. Lesley Ann did play it a bit broadly but I think she could have brought on the heavy darker part of the story when required to. It certainly would have made a slightly different film had she been chosen instead.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 23, 2023 11:41:13 GMT -5 atp said:

Out of all the screen tests, only Ann Archer was ok, in my opinion.

Karen Allen might have been an interesting alternative

Karen actually could have worked fine- to me, her resemblance to Margot was also pretty strong imo!

[Metallo]

May 23, 2023 18:54:09 GMT -5 crazy_asian_man said:

Good assessments that I would agree on, for those tests. I do wonder if these really were the top contenders or if it was just a matter of sampling under a deadline for the dvds. Lesley Ann did play it a bit broadly but I think she could have brought on the heavy darker part of the story when required to. It certainly would have made a slightly different film had she been chosen instead.

I tend to believe this was mostly it. You could say they only included the recognizable names to make it more interesting but most of them are recognizable for a reason. Some of the women who tested went on to have fairly impressive and successful careers. If they had what it took for that they had what it took to be contenders for the Lois Lane part.

[Kamdan]

I wish Warners would let us see all the entirety of the Lois screen tests instead of the cut up versions we’ve seen in the documentaries. Apparently, what won Donner over in regard to Kidder was her natural giggling reaction to the “what color underwear am I wearing” bit. I always thought her hairstyle in the balcony screen test was meant to resemble Lois’ silver age appearance. It’s a shame that Kidder is not around to be asked whether that was intentional or not.

[atp]

May 24, 2023 7:24:53 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I wish Warners would let us see all the entirety of the Lois screen tests instead of the cut up versions we’ve seen in the documentaries. Apparently, what won Donner over in regard to Kidder was her natural giggling reaction to the “what color underwear am I wearing” bit. I always thought her hairstyle in the balcony screen test was meant to resemble Lois’ silver age appearance. It’s a shame that Kidder is not around to be asked whether that was intentional or not.

I also wish they would show all the screen tests for Superman / Clark.

[Metallo]

May 24, 2023 7:24:53 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I wish Warners would let us see all the entirety of the Lois screen tests instead of the cut up versions we’ve seen in the documentaries. Apparently, what won Donner over in regard to Kidder was her natural giggling reaction to the “what color underwear am I wearing” bit. I always thought her hairstyle in the balcony screen test was meant to resemble Lois’ silver age appearance. It’s a shame that Kidder is not around to be asked whether that was intentional or not.

Kidder “got it.” She understood and fit the material. There were probably better actresses in the mix but they didn’t fit the tone of the film Donner was making. Kidder also had Lois Lane’s natural natural spunkiness and nose for mischief. So many people today don’t understand that it’s not just about hiring the best actor but the right actor. The one who is the best fit.

[Metallo]

May 24, 2023 7:27:33 GMT -5 atp said:

May 24, 2023 7:24:53 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

I wish Warners would let us see all the entirety of the Lois screen tests instead of the cut up versions we’ve seen in the documentaries. Apparently, what won Donner over in regard to Kidder was her natural giggling reaction to the “what color underwear am I wearing” bit. I always thought her hairstyle in the balcony screen test was meant to resemble Lois’ silver age appearance. It’s a shame that Kidder is not around to be asked whether that was intentional or not.

I also wish they would show all the screen tests for Superman / Clark.

I’d love to see Caitlyn Jenner’s test for Superman in the “ice crystal.” It had to be filmed.

[crazy_asian_man]

that’s right! I’d be curious as well!

[dejan]

Agree with all the points made above.

I would add that Margot was highly politicized in her views and campaigned to get her meassages across.

Whichever way she leaned(left or right -  mostly on the left) was irrelevant.

But her natural inclinations to be inquisitive in real life with regards to what she perceived as societal injustices , instilled her portrayal of Lois with that same sense of "eagerness to discover what's goin' on".....which is an integral part of the character.  

I don't think either Adams,Bosworth(jeez!),Hatcher or Tulloch have as much of  that in their make up as personalities in real life, at least from what I have seen, hence their relatively banal(IMHO) portrayals.
I see that Adams has done stuff for underpriveledged youths ect ect.....so that's cool.

But Kidder went one step further and was not afraid to "rattle the cage" in Batman parlance, so to speak!
  

[dejan]

Have you guys seen Morning Glory from 1993?

It has Reeve and Rafin.

Putting aside the characters they are portraying in this flick, which are pretty different from the Lois/Supes paradigm......they do have quite good chemistry here , IMHO.

I have not watched the whole thing....it's a bit too drab and predictable for my liking, but the interaction between the 2 actors is better than what we got in the screen tests nearly 16 years prior for STM.
Of course both actors had acquired extra experience by this point(1993)....but still, Rafin had some decent acting chops(also a very beautiful woman I may add!).

I guess we were so early on in the comic book adaptation to film evolution at that point(1977)....that a lot of  actresses in this case(Rafin and Warren) applied the comic , over the top interpretations quite literally to their portrayals.

Kidder's trick was just to treat Supes like a guy she was fond of.....almost(but not quite!) forgetting the powers that he had.
It was a fine line to tread, but I think that approach worked! 

[dejan]

Thought you folks might enjoy this:

It'a little indie film(even a touch arty) with a pre Willy Wonka Gene Wilder and Kidder from ways back in 1970.



Lovely performance from Margot.
Also, she looks drop dead f**cking gorgeous!

[crazy_asian_man]

May 25, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

Agree with all the points made above.

I would add that Margot was highly politicized in her views and campaigned to get her meassages across.

Whichever way she leaned(left or right -  mostly on the left) was irrelevant.

But her natural inclinations to be inquisitive in real life with regards to what she perceived as societal injustices , instilled her portrayal of Lois with that same sense of "eagerness to discover what's goin' on".....which is an integral part of the character.  

I don't think either Adams,Bosworth(jeez!),Hatcher or Tulloch have as much of  that in their make up as personalities in real life, at least from what I have seen, hence their relatively banal(IMHO) portrayals.
I see that Adams has done stuff for underpriveledged youths ect ect.....so that's cool.

But Kidder went one step further and was not afraid to "rattle the cage" in Batman parlance, so to speak!
  

Excellent points. I remember one casting director once said the best casting was 50 percent acting talent 50 percent naturally who they were…

[crazy_asian_man]

May 25, 2023 6:53:01 GMT -5 dejan said:

Have you guys seen Morning Glory from 1993?

It has Reeve and Rafin.

Putting aside the characters they are portraying in this flick, which are pretty different from the Lois/Supes paradigm......they do have quite good chemistry here , IMHO.

I have not watched the whole thing....it's a bit too drab and predictable for my liking, but the interaction between the 2 actors is better than what we got in the screen tests nearly 16 years prior for STM.
Of course both actors had acquired extra experience by this point(1993)....but still, Rafin had some decent acting chops(also a very beautiful woman I may add!).

I guess we were so early on in the comic book adaptation to film evolution at that point(1977)....that a lot of  actresses in this case(Rafin and Warren) applied the comic , over the top interpretations quite literally to their portrayals.

Kidder's trick was just to treat Supes like a guy she was fond of.....almost(but not quite!) forgetting the powers that he had.
It was a fine line to tread, but I think that approach worked! 

Never seen but this looks interesting-thx

[Metallo]

May 25, 2023 6:53:01 GMT -5 dejan said:

Have you guys seen Morning Glory from 1993?

It has Reeve and Rafin.

Putting aside the characters they are portraying in this flick, which are pretty different from the Lois/Supes paradigm......they do have quite good chemistry here , IMHO.

I have not watched the whole thing....it's a bit too drab and predictable for my liking, but the interaction between the 2 actors is better than what we got in the screen tests nearly 16 years prior for STM.
Of course both actors had acquired extra experience by this point(1993)....but still, Rafin had some decent acting chops(also a very beautiful woman I may add!).

I guess we were so early on in the comic book adaptation to film evolution at that point(1977)....that a lot of  actresses in this case(Rafin and Warren) applied the comic , over the top interpretations quite literally to their portrayals.

Kidder's trick was just to treat Supes like a guy she was fond of.....almost(but not quite!) forgetting the powers that he had.
It was a fine line to tread, but I think that approach worked! 

Yeah I remember that film. I found it funny they ended up working together after learning she tested for Lois Lane.

[Metallo]

May 25, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

Agree with all the points made above.

I would add that Margot was highly politicized in her views and campaigned to get her meassages across.

Whichever way she leaned(left or right -  mostly on the left) was irrelevant.

But her natural inclinations to be inquisitive in real life with regards to what she perceived as societal injustices , instilled her portrayal of Lois with that same sense of "eagerness to discover what's goin' on".....which is an integral part of the character.  

I don't think either Adams,Bosworth(jeez!),Hatcher or Tulloch have as much of  that in their make up as personalities in real life, at least from what I have seen, hence their relatively banal(IMHO) portrayals.
I see that Adams has done stuff for underpriveledged youths ect ect.....so that's cool.

But Kidder went one step further and was not afraid to "rattle the cage" in Batman parlance, so to speak!
  

Kidder was like Carrie Fisher in that her willingness to speak her mind and be blunt wasn’t an act but a very real part of her own personality. That’s why it came naturally on screen too. I think a lot of people have played Lois very well before and since. I liked Hatcher and Durance and think Tulloch has been terrific. They just don’t quite have Kidders balls. Phyllis Coates had a similar tough cookie vibe but lacked Kidders sense of fun.

A good enough actress with the right material and direction can make up for not having that same kind of hard edge in real life. Karen Allen as Marion Ravenwood is a perfect example. She seems pretty sweet and soft spoken in real life but she was one of the all time great gutsy ballsy chicks to come out of those late 70’s/early 80’s blockbusters just like Kidder and Fisher. Fun fact: she apparently screen tested with John Shea, Lois & Clark’s very own Lex Luthor, for Raiders of The Lost Ark!

Bosworth was not only miscast but simply too young for what she was playing. I almost think it would have been better if Bosworth and Parker Posey had swapped roles. Bosworth as Kitty and Posey as Lois. Posey had more of the look and more of the right vibe in my opinion. Problem is she was a lot older than Brandon Routh. Her age wouldn’t have been an issue if an older actor was playing Superman since it was a years later story where she and Superman already have a history together.

Amy Adams might be the best overall actress to ever play Lois Lane but what ended up on screen was one of the worst portrayals of the character. She’s not a natural fit for it. If anything she could have played Lana Lang with ease. Not just because of her looks but because her natural personality was a perfect fit. She can play tougher and more strong willed (see The Fighter) but the scripts she got for MOS, BVS, and JL did her no favors and Zack Snyder wasn’t a good enough director to get that kind of performance out of her. She was on her own.

Just like Kate Bosworth in SR there was another woman in the MOS cast that would have been a far better Lois Lane: Diane Lane. She was too old for it by then but in her day Diane Lane probably could have played a far better Lois in her sleep even with Zack Snyder’s writing and directing being not only useless but an anchor holding her down.

[crazy_asian_man]

May 25, 2023 12:09:50 GMT -5 Metallo said:

May 25, 2023 6:45:42 GMT -5 dejan said:

Agree with all the points made above.

I would add that Margot was highly politicized in her views and campaigned to get her meassages across.

Whichever way she leaned(left or right -  mostly on the left) was irrelevant.

But her natural inclinations to be inquisitive in real life with regards to what she perceived as societal injustices , instilled her portrayal of Lois with that same sense of "eagerness to discover what's goin' on".....which is an integral part of the character.  

I don't think either Adams,Bosworth(jeez!),Hatcher or Tulloch have as much of  that in their make up as personalities in real life, at least from what I have seen, hence their relatively banal(IMHO) portrayals.
I see that Adams has done stuff for underpriveledged youths ect ect.....so that's cool.

But Kidder went one step further and was not afraid to "rattle the cage" in Batman parlance, so to speak!
  

Kidder was like Carrie Fisher in that her willingness to speak her mind and be blunt wasn’t an act but a very real part of her own personality. That’s why it came naturally on screen too. I think a lot of people have played Lois very well before and since. I liked Hatcher and Durance and think Tulloch has been terrific. They just don’t quite have Kidders balls. Phyllis Coates had a similar tough cookie vibe but lacked Kidders sense of fun.

A good enough actress with the right material and direction can make up for not having that same kind of hard edge in real life. Karen Allen as Marion Ravenwood is a perfect example. She seems pretty sweet and soft spoken in real life but she was one of the all time great gutsy ballsy chicks to come out of those late 70’s/early 80’s blockbusters just like Kidder and Fisher. Fun fact: she apparently screen tested with John Shea, Lois & Clark’s very own Lex Luthor, for Raiders of The Lost Ark!

Bosworth was not only miscast but simply too young for what she was playing. I almost think it would have been better if Bosworth and Parker Posey had swapped roles. Bosworth as Kitty and Posey as Lois. Posey had more of the look and more of the right vibe in my opinion. Problem is she was a lot older than Brandon Routh. Her age wouldn’t have been an issue if an older actor was playing Superman since it was a years later story where she and Superman already have a history together.

Amy Adams might be the best overall actress to ever play Lois Lane but what ended up on screen was one of the worst portrayals of the character. She’s not a natural fit for it. If anything she could have played Lana Lang with ease. Not just because of her looks but because her natural personality was a perfect fit. She can play tougher and more strong willed (see The Fighter) but the scripts she got for MOS, BVS, and JL did her no favors and Zack Snyder wasn’t a good enough director to get that kind of performance out of her. She was on her own.

Just like Kate Bosworth in SR there was another woman in the MOS cast that would have been a far better Lois Lane: Diane Lane. She was too old for it by then but in her day Diane Lane probably could have played a far better Lois in her sleep even with Zack Snyder’s writing and directing being not only useless but an anchor holding her down.

Great points. Bosworth wasn't great, but I thought she was FAR better than Amy Adams (who was just WRONG for Lois from ground zero I thought) and Tulloch on tv. Diane Lane might not have been bad at all- but.... not the right age by the time of MOS.

[Kamdan]

Amy Adams might be the best overall actress to ever play Lois Lane but what ended up on screen was one of the worst portrayals of the character. She’s not a natural fit for it. If anything she could have played Lana Lang with ease. Not just because of her looks but because her natural personality was a perfect fit. She can play tougher and more strong willed (see The Fighter) but the scripts she got for MOS, BVS, and JL did her no favors and Zack Snyder wasn’t a good enough director to get that kind of performance out of her. She was on her own.

I hope Adams in a decade or two will one way be able to vent her obvious frustration at her short stint as Lois Lane. When she was cast in Man of Steel, Adams was beaming with giddiness due to her being a big fan of the first film. She even sang a few licks of Can You Read My Mind on one of the late night talk shows. She’s likely embarrassed at her initial foray into the Superman franchise with Smallville (I often wish the show had her as Lana and Routh as Clark) and despite screen testing with all of the actors considered for Batman Begins, Adams lost the part to the severely miscasted Katie Holmes. I believe it was said that Adams got the part of Lois Lane as a consolidation prize for that (and I’m sure her Oscar nominations helped as well).

She definitely enjoyed working with Henry Cavill. She’s literally spreading her legs for him in the behind the scenes footage for their interrogation room scene. I often wonder if she understood at all that their first kiss scene with him was going to have 9/11 imagery behind her. How Goyer and Snyder handled the characters’ relationship makes you appreciate how Donner and Mankiewicz decided to emphasize their relationship and took a significant amount of screen time (the balcony interview and flying scene) to make it the emotional crux of the film. Any scene that attempts tenderness between them is null and void with all of its hard edge approach to the material. Who the heck thought it was a good idea for Superman’s first interaction with Lois to be him cauterizing her wound?!

Adams’ Lois also suffered from being poorly integrated into the plots by having her just being there to spit out or receive exposition. It’s a shame they weren’t more bold with changing the status quo by going with John Byrne’s initial concept of having just Lana Lang as the sole love interest because that’s exactly what Lois Lane felt like in those Snyder movies, a mythology gag. You can tell by the look on her face during Whedon’s reshoots for Justice League that Adams is not getting everything she’d hoped for when she had to play a scene where Clark’s mother says how “thirsty” Lois was for her son. Whatever else Synder had in mind for the character was no improvement as he wanted to steal a page from Pearl Harbor and have her involved in a love triangle between Superman and Batman.

With the 10th anniversary of Man of Steel approaching, I know we all lament over how much it didn’t satisfy our expectations in comparison to the Reeve films. When that date approaches, just think about how the feeling is shared with Amy Adams.

[Metallo]

May 26, 2023 5:51:05 GMT -5 Kamdan said:

Amy Adams might be the best overall actress to ever play Lois Lane but what ended up on screen was one of the worst portrayals of the character. She’s not a natural fit for it. If anything she could have played Lana Lang with ease. Not just because of her looks but because her natural personality was a perfect fit. She can play tougher and more strong willed (see The Fighter) but the scripts she got for MOS, BVS, and JL did her no favors and Zack Snyder wasn’t a good enough director to get that kind of performance out of her. She was on her own.

I hope Adams in a decade or two will one way be able to vent her obvious frustration at her short stint as Lois Lane. When she was cast in Man of Steel, Adams was beaming with giddiness due to her being a big fan of the first film. She even sang a few licks of Can You Read My Mind on one of the late night talk shows. She’s likely embarrassed at her initial foray into the Superman franchise with Smallville (I often wish the show had her as Lana and Routh as Clark) and despite screen testing with all of the actors considered for Batman Begins, Adams lost the part to the severely miscasted Katie Holmes. I believe it was said that Adams got the part of Lois Lane as a consolidation prize for that (and I’m sure her Oscar nominations helped as well).

She definitely enjoyed working with Henry Cavill. She’s literally spreading her legs for him in the behind the scenes footage for their interrogation room scene. I often wonder if she understood at all that their first kiss scene with him was going to have 9/11 imagery behind her. How Goyer and Snyder handled the characters’ relationship makes you appreciate how Donner and Mankiewicz decided to emphasize their relationship and took a significant amount of screen time (the balcony interview and flying scene) to make it the emotional crux of the film. Any scene that attempts tenderness between them is null and void with all of its hard edge approach to the material. Who the heck thought it was a good idea for Superman’s first interaction with Lois to be him cauterizing her wound?!

Adams’ Lois also suffered from being poorly integrated into the plots by having her just being there to spit out or receive exposition. It’s a shame they weren’t more bold with changing the status quo by going with John Byrne’s initial concept of having just Lana Lang as the sole love interest because that’s exactly what Lois Lane felt like in those Snyder movies, a mythology gag. You can tell by the look on her face during Whedon’s reshoots for Justice League that Adams is not getting everything she’d hoped for when she had to play a scene where Clark’s mother says how “thirsty” Lois was for her son. Whatever else Synder had in mind for the character was no improvement as he wanted to steal a page from Pearl Harbor and have her involved in a love triangle between Superman and Batman.

With the 10th anniversary of Man of Steel approaching, I know we all lament over how much it didn’t satisfy our expectations in comparison to the Reeve films. When that date approaches, just think about how the feeling is shared with Amy Adams.

She’s talked a little bit about how she felt about not getting much to do or anything good to do as Lois and feeling like she wasn’t doing the character justice. It was in an Actors on Actors sit down with Andrew Garfield funnily enough.



Margot Kidder also talked about how great an actress Amy Adams is but how wasted she was in Snyder’s films by not having anything interesting to do. Her actions in BvS are nonsensical or don’t amount to much of anything.

I also remember Adams talking about being a Superman fan as a child and watching Superman II. She said she wanted to be Lois Lane in the Fortress and remembered those “silver sheets.” She did it once at a Comic-Con panel with the cast of BvS when Aisha Tyler asked them about playing all these characters who’d been played by previous actors (which ended up being a disastrous idea).



It’s funny to think about her swooning (or fake swooning) over Henry Cavill behind the scenes since they had absolutely zero on screen chemistry. It was like watching two dead frozen trout interact.

Adams has had a long history with Superman. Not only as you said Smallville but I believe she tested for Superman Flyby and Superman Returns. Lois is a role she clearly chased for a long time. I felt bad for her because she had to work with what was given to her by a bunch of hacks and idiots.

Not only did Snyder want Lois and Bruce Wayne to fall for each other but for him to get her pregnant. If you go by the timeline of events they’d have to have banged before Superman’s body was even cold. Zack Snyder is an absolute idiot.

He lacks any kind of focus or discipline as a filmmaker and just stuffs any random ideas he has into his movies wether they make sense or not. The big kiss in Man of Steel and the poor decision making behind it makes more sense when you learn more about how Snyder’s mind works as a filmmaker.

I always thought Katie Holmes was pushed on Nolan by the studio. I remember reading at the time Warners wanted another American in the cast because most of the other actors were European. Holmes had those connections to WB through Dawsons Creek for a long time. She was also young and attractive so they probably figured she checked off a box for their four quadrant marketing and could help with certain demographics.

[dejan]

@kamdan and Metallo

Interesting that you folks brought up Adams being turned down for Begins.

Because on the 2 occasions were Adams did play opposite Bale that I am aware of, (The Fighter and American Hustle),she actually did have half decent chemistry with the fellow.

One has to bare in mind that romance is not neccesarily Nolan's forte'(at least IMHO).......so that probably did not help Holmes in her onscreen interactions with Bale.

But not casting Adams , given her subsequent rapport with Bale in other films , for me is one of the great "what ifs" of Nolan's Batman.

Metallo

Cavill's and Adam's chemistry was the equivalent of a dead frozen trout!

LOL!

[Metallo]

May 26, 2023 9:48:46 GMT -5 dejan said:

@kamdan and Metallo

Interesting that you folks brought up Adams being turned down for Begins.

Because on the 2 occasions were Adams did play opposite Bale (The Fighter and American Hustle),she actually did have half decent chemistry with the fellow.

One has to bare in mind that romance is not neccesarily Nolan's forte'(at least IMHO).......so that probably did not help Holmes in her onscreen interactions with Bale.

But not casting Adams , given her subsequent rapport with Bale in other films , for me is one of the great "what ifs" of Nolan's Batman.

Metallo

Cavill's and Adam's chemistry was the equivalent of a dead frozen trout!

LOL!

I think Nolan could have gotten more out of a Bale and Adams pairing than Snyder did Cavill and Adams. Nolan’s filmmaking is more cerebral and he doesn’t work best when it comes to passion but he wouldn’t have made the kinds of absurd character and relationship choices Zack Snyder did. Snyder doesn’t know how to direct actors very well at all.

[dejan]

@cam

I too actually liked Bosworth's interaction with Routh when he played Clark.
But when he changed to Supes, their chemistry did not work for me.

As opposed to MoS where it made no difference whether Cavill was playing Clark or Supes, the chemistry with Adams was simply non existant.