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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 23, 2023 10:58:00 GMT -5
( Crazy asian man has gone poll-crazy. Send in the a.i. robots to retire him)
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 23, 2023 15:37:06 GMT -5
If we’re excluding Superman I and II my top two would be The Dark Knight and Logan for sure. Number three would either be X-Men: Days Of Future Past, Iron Man, The Avengers, Deadpool, Captain America: The Winter Soldier, or Spider-man 2.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 23, 2023 19:05:01 GMT -5
Dark Knight probably would be my top, with X-men: Dofp and Avengers: Endgame close seconds….. but if solo superhero, perhaps Spider-Man 2 - (or Soiderman: No way home- but then it becomes a group with the other spidermen) - or Thor:Ragnarok.
in thinking of these films on one hand I think we should feel lucky to have had so many, on the other hand saddened that a lot of mediocrity also were a large part of the entries….
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 23, 2023 19:26:13 GMT -5
Dark Knight probably would be my top, with X-men: Dofp and Avengers: Endgame close seconds….. but if solo superhero, perhaps Spider-Man 2 - (or Soiderman: No way home- but then it becomes a group with the other spidermen) - or Thor:Ragnarok. in thinking of these films on one hand I think we should feel lucky to have had so many, on the other hand saddened that a lot of mediocrity also were a large part of the entries…. That’s just part of any franchise though. Especially long running ones with many films. If anything it makes me more impressed that the MCU’s track record is as good as it is. The last 10 or 20 years have still been a sort of golden age for superhero films. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on May 25, 2023 7:32:33 GMT -5
1)Winter Soldier
2)Spiderman 2
3)Infinity War
Notice I left out The Dark Knight.......i'm gonna rattle that cage!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 25, 2023 10:33:09 GMT -5
I don’t feel rattled - just glad it wasn’t a Lester film! (Kidding! Kidding!)  those are great films- infinity war had some Great stuff but I thought the Thor stuff had some weak parts that pulled it down a bit. |
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Post by dejan on May 25, 2023 11:02:21 GMT -5
I don’t feel rattled - just glad it wasn’t a Lester film! (Kidding! Kidding!)   Ah interesting. It's been a while since I have seen it. IMHO, the major weakness of something like Infinity is just having to be familiar with a lot of the other stuff that came before, so that the predicament of the characters resonates more. STM is(or certainly could be) a stand alone movie. That does not apply to the bulk of the multiple phases of films within the MCU ,because outside of the 1st gen stuff(Iron Man 1,Cap America 1,Thor 1,Guardians 1) ..... alot of the others , if not all(like Winter Soldier which I personally rate as the best of the crop) are very dependent on set ups from the preceding bunch. Would love to get the reaction of somebody who never saw Cap 1.....who when seeing the end of the 1st fight between the Winter Soldier and Cap on the street.....sees the maskless Bucky......wonder how that would play? |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 25, 2023 11:42:44 GMT -5
I don’t feel rattled - just glad it wasn’t a Lester film! (Kidding! Kidding!) those are great films- infinity war had some Great stuff but I thought the Thor stuff had some weak parts that pulled it down a bit. I thought Thor had some great stuff to do in Infinity War and Endgame. The only Avengers film that I felt really wasted the character somewhat was Age of Ultron. Thors just kind of there…doing a few cool action sequences…and having a dream sequence to set up Ragnarok and Infinity War. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 25, 2023 11:44:23 GMT -5
1)Winter Soldier 2)Spiderman 2 3)Infinity War Notice I left out The Dark Knight.......i'm gonna rattle that cage! Great choices. It’s tough because in the last few years there have been some really good superhero films. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 26, 2023 3:58:19 GMT -5
I don’t feel rattled - just glad it wasn’t a Lester film! (Kidding! Kidding!) Ah interesting. It's been a while since I have seen it. IMHO, the major weakness of something like Infinity is just having to be familiar with a lot of the other stuff that came before, so that the predicament of the characters resonates more. STM is(or certainly could be) a stand alone movie. That does not apply to the bulk of the multiple phases of films within the MCU ,because outside of the 1st gen stuff(Iron Man 1,Cap America 1,Thor 1,Guardians 1) ..... alot of the others , if not all(like Winter Soldier which I personally rate as the best of the crop) are very dependent on set ups from the preceding bunch. Would love to get the reaction of somebody who never saw Cap 1.....who when seeing the end of the 1st fight between the Winter Soldier and Cap on the street.....sees the maskless Bucky......wonder how that would play? The Marvel movies mostly have been one grand experiment- like a giant tv show or novel- though with chapters/movies that could be underwhelming at times. For me, it's mostly (at its best) mirrors the same feeling I got as a Marvel comics fan when they would have multiple characters from multiple books crossing over and creating a really unique and satisfying event- particularly in its best annual team ups. I always dreamed Hollywood would have done something like this when we had those sparse superhero tv shows... but the best we could get way back when was extreme camp (the early justice league live action specials) or just poorly to horrificly done crossover shows (the scarily bad Thor-Hulk team up or the Daredevil-Hulk team up comes to mind).... so, to see something like Spiderman FINALLY done faithfully (and well) under Raimi- then a genuinely faithful origin story for Iron Man and Captain America.... wow.... and - while there have been mediocre outings, having that mammoth amount of well budgeted and produced Marvel superhero material for 15 years (granted, a chunk of it mediocre, but nothing NEARLY as horrible as what we had gotten for years and years up to then)-not all the movies were great, I agree, but considering quantity/quality- and the difficulty of live-action.... I do think Feige deserved/deserves the big success he's gotten from the MCU as a whole to now. (Though I agree with a general consensus that the whole ship needs to come together more and better soon!) |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 26, 2023 4:03:37 GMT -5
I don’t feel rattled - just glad it wasn’t a Lester film! (Kidding! Kidding!) those are great films- infinity war had some Great stuff but I thought the Thor stuff had some weak parts that pulled it down a bit. I thought Thor had some great stuff to do in Infinity War and Endgame. The only Avengers film that I felt really wasted the character somewhat was Age of Ultron. Thors just kind of there…doing a few cool action sequences…and having a dream sequence to set up Ragnarok and Infinity War. I know that Helmsworth wanted to keep the comedic vibe gotten from Ragnarok, but I don't feel like the perfect balance of serious and light was quite there in Infinity War for the Thor stuff in Infinity War (I thought it worked much better in Endgame)--- but, considering how many moving pieces there are in Infinity War- I still VERY much enjoy (and parts love) Infinity War.... it's just that some of the weaker Thor bits that weren't as moving (Thor talking to Rocket about his loss didn't quite vibe as strong as I would have liked) or quite as funny (Thor sounding a bit more daft than usual in some pieces of dialogue)- wasn't on the same level as many of the other bits with the other Avengers in the same story. Had some of the weaker THor stuff been trimmed/altered, I feel it would have been equally as strong as Endgame. |
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Post by Metallo on May 26, 2023 9:59:26 GMT -5
I thought Thor had some great stuff to do in Infinity War and Endgame. The only Avengers film that I felt really wasted the character somewhat was Age of Ultron. Thors just kind of there…doing a few cool action sequences…and having a dream sequence to set up Ragnarok and Infinity War. I know that Helmsworth wanted to keep the comedic vibe gotten from Ragnarok, but I don't feel like the perfect balance of serious and light was quite there in Infinity War for the Thor stuff in Infinity War (I thought it worked much better in Endgame)--- but, considering how many moving pieces there are in Infinity War- I still VERY much enjoy (and parts love) Infinity War.... it's just that some of the weaker Thor bits that weren't as moving (Thor talking to Rocket about his loss didn't quite vibe as strong as I would have liked) or quite as funny (Thor sounding a bit more daft than usual in some pieces of dialogue)- wasn't on the same level as many of the other bits with the other Avengers in the same story. Had some of the weaker THor stuff been trimmed/altered, I feel it would have been equally as strong as Endgame. I think Thors arc in Infinity War HAD to be darker though because of everything that happened. It was very much an intentional choice and being as humorous as Ragnarok tonally wouldn’t have fit. Heimdall and Loki dying, half of the Asgardians being killed (after many of them had already died in Ragnarok), on top of all the other personal losses he had piled up since Thor: The Dark World. This was a Thor who had lost everything so I don’t think going any more comedic would have worked. He had to be in a desperate angry mindset and want revenge on Thanos. After that’s done we get more humor put back in with Thor in Endgame. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 26, 2023 11:48:36 GMT -5
I know that Helmsworth wanted to keep the comedic vibe gotten from Ragnarok, but I don't feel like the perfect balance of serious and light was quite there in Infinity War for the Thor stuff in Infinity War (I thought it worked much better in Endgame)--- but, considering how many moving pieces there are in Infinity War- I still VERY much enjoy (and parts love) Infinity War.... it's just that some of the weaker Thor bits that weren't as moving (Thor talking to Rocket about his loss didn't quite vibe as strong as I would have liked) or quite as funny (Thor sounding a bit more daft than usual in some pieces of dialogue)- wasn't on the same level as many of the other bits with the other Avengers in the same story. Had some of the weaker THor stuff been trimmed/altered, I feel it would have been equally as strong as Endgame. I think Thors arc in Infinity War HAD to be darker though because of everything that happened. It was very much an intentional choice and being as humorous as Ragnarok tonally wouldn’t have fit. Heimdall and Loki dying, half of the Asgardians being killed (after many of them had already died in Ragnarok), on top of all the other personal losses he had piled up since Thor: The Dark World. This was a Thor who had lost everything so I don’t think going any more comedic would have worked. He had to be in a desperate angry mindset and want revenge on Thanos. After that’s done we get more humor put back in with Thor in Endgame. I agree- but I thought that him sharing his darker bit with Rocket somehow (for me anyhow) deflated the significance of it. Had he shared it with a human character I do think it would have gotten more weight (for me). The bit with getting Stormbreaker and the exchanges between the actor who was in Game of Thrones weren't bad.... but the scenes were weaker compared to the other pairings and teams. Having Thor just be with the two cgi characters on his own adventure was 'eh' compared to the energy with Iron Man/Dr. Strange & Cap & the team. Maybe it was the imbalance that made me want the movie to have less Thor scenes and go back to the other teams. If another stronger character had been been put on Thor's team, maybe that might have made a difference. But- it is all nitpicking after the fact. Still a very good movie with some very excellent parts. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 26, 2023 11:56:29 GMT -5
I think Thors arc in Infinity War HAD to be darker though because of everything that happened. It was very much an intentional choice and being as humorous as Ragnarok tonally wouldn’t have fit. Heimdall and Loki dying, half of the Asgardians being killed (after many of them had already died in Ragnarok), on top of all the other personal losses he had piled up since Thor: The Dark World. This was a Thor who had lost everything so I don’t think going any more comedic would have worked. He had to be in a desperate angry mindset and want revenge on Thanos. After that’s done we get more humor put back in with Thor in Endgame. I agree- but I thought that him sharing his darker bit with Rocket somehow (for me anyhow) deflated the significance of it. Had he shared it with a human character I do think it would have gotten more weight (for me). The bit with getting Stormbreaker and the exchanges between the actor who was in Game of Thrones weren't bad.... but the scenes were weaker compared to the other pairings and teams. Having Thor just be with the two cgi characters on his own adventure was 'eh' compared to the energy with Iron Man/Dr. Strange & Cap & the team. Maybe it was the imbalance that made me want the movie to have less Thor scenes and go back to the other teams. If another stronger character had been been put on Thor's team, maybe that might have made a difference. But- it is all nitpicking after the fact. Still a very good movie with some very excellent parts. I think it was with Rocket for a reason. Like Thor Rocket is also a character that’s been through some horrible things and clearly lost some friends but like Thor he puts on this a facade of cockiness and confidence. He’s a character that also loves a good fight and kicking someone’s @ss if he feels they’ve wronged him. He was also a guy that hid a lot of his suffering behind bravado. Unlike Thor Rocket wasn’t as willing to put his life on the line if the odds were stacked heavily against him. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 26, 2023 22:00:07 GMT -5
I agree- but I thought that him sharing his darker bit with Rocket somehow (for me anyhow) deflated the significance of it. Had he shared it with a human character I do think it would have gotten more weight (for me). The bit with getting Stormbreaker and the exchanges between the actor who was in Game of Thrones weren't bad.... but the scenes were weaker compared to the other pairings and teams. Having Thor just be with the two cgi characters on his own adventure was 'eh' compared to the energy with Iron Man/Dr. Strange & Cap & the team. Maybe it was the imbalance that made me want the movie to have less Thor scenes and go back to the other teams. If another stronger character had been been put on Thor's team, maybe that might have made a difference. But- it is all nitpicking after the fact. Still a very good movie with some very excellent parts. I think it was with Rocket for a reason. Like Thor Rocket is also a character that’s been through some horrible things and clearly lost some friends but like Thor he puts on this a facade of cockiness and confidence. He’s a character that also loves a good fight and kicking someone’s @ss if he feels they’ve wronged him. He was also a guy that hid a lot of his suffering behind bravado. Unlike Thor Rocket wasn’t as willing to put his life on the line if the odds were stacked heavily against him. I think they could have had that, but also have had maybe a more serious character like Gamora around for at least his mini-monologue on loss- that the scene would have had more weight. Oddly, I think that's the only character in the group that could have been able to give that weight as a listener. |
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Post by atp on May 27, 2023 4:23:38 GMT -5
I find this difficult to answer. None of those other films do anything for me.
I honestly think that I am not a superhero fan. To me, the Reeve Superman movies (especially STM) are romantic fantasy movies and not superhero movies.
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 27, 2023 8:25:38 GMT -5
I think it was with Rocket for a reason. Like Thor Rocket is also a character that’s been through some horrible things and clearly lost some friends but like Thor he puts on this a facade of cockiness and confidence. He’s a character that also loves a good fight and kicking someone’s @ss if he feels they’ve wronged him. He was also a guy that hid a lot of his suffering behind bravado. Unlike Thor Rocket wasn’t as willing to put his life on the line if the odds were stacked heavily against him. I think they could have had that, but also have had maybe a more serious character like Gamora around for at least his mini-monologue on loss- that the scene would have had more weight. Oddly, I think that's the only character in the group that could have been able to give that weight as a listener. The problem is Gamora had her own story going on with Quill and Thanos so it made sense to separate the group and let their own personal stories play out. |
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Post by Metallo on May 27, 2023 8:26:43 GMT -5
I find this difficult to answer. None of those other films do anything for me. I honestly think that I am not a superhero fan. To me, the Reeve Superman movies (especially STM) are romantic fantasy movies and not superhero movies. It is separate in a way. Because it was the first there was no superhero movie genre to draw from. It had to draw from other types of films for its influences and inspiration. |
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atp
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Post by atp on May 27, 2023 10:22:11 GMT -5
I find this difficult to answer. None of those other films do anything for me. I honestly think that I am not a superhero fan. To me, the Reeve Superman movies (especially STM) are romantic fantasy movies and not superhero movies. It is separate in a way. Because it was the first there was no superhero movie genre to draw from. It had to draw from other types of films for its influences and inspiration. I put STM into a similar category to Close Encounters of the Third Kind and E.T. A fantasy movie with some sci-fi trappings. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 28, 2023 0:02:44 GMT -5
I find this difficult to answer. None of those other films do anything for me. I honestly think that I am not a superhero fan. To me, the Reeve Superman movies (especially STM) are romantic fantasy movies and not superhero movies. James Cameron said that all of his films were at the core romance films- when looking at the superhero films that really connect or work, arguably they all had a relationship of some sort at the center of it. Spiderman 2 (the best one imo) had Peter Parker's struggle between a real desire for a kind of life with healthy relationships- but also the cost of being a superhero. Dark Knight also had that (sortof) as well... Logan also- though as a father relationship with his daughter. So, maybe it's more that a superhero film NEEDS to be more about a character's desire for a 'normal' life (or containing a peaceful world to fight for, for that)to really be a good one. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 28, 2023 0:09:14 GMT -5
I think they could have had that, but also have had maybe a more serious character like Gamora around for at least his mini-monologue on loss- that the scene would have had more weight. Oddly, I think that's the only character in the group that could have been able to give that weight as a listener. The problem is Gamora had her own story going on with Quill and Thanos so it made sense to separate the group and let their own personal stories play out. True.... I was trying to think of which character would have made Thor's revelation land more- beside the CGI Rocket Racoon- but maybe... Mantis? In any case, with so many balls juggled in the air for the plot, it's still great that the other pairings came up with a lot of great material, considering how rare it had to be to get the schedulings of all the great talent lined up to make it happen. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 28, 2023 0:17:37 GMT -5
It is separate in a way. Because it was the first there was no superhero movie genre to draw from. It had to draw from other types of films for its influences and inspiration. I put STM into a similar category to Close Encounters of the Third Kind and E.T. A fantasy movie with some sci-fi trappings. I always wonder about what Mank said- that he had said to Donner (Or was it the other way around?)- that if they could get the romance to work, that everything else would- and in thinking about and rewatching the film- it really is true. Despite the sometimes silly humor and different tones (though intentional) - the reality of the relationship onscreen (and charm of it) is what gives STM its main core. If the romance had no real weight - then, there still would have been the other neat bits- but definitely a lot would have been lost without the magic generated by not just Reeve and Kidder's chemistry- but how it was written/directed. The balcony scene just had so many layers of charm and humor- someone had remarked how it felt like the nervous energy of a first date, and it comes off that way in a sense. Another thought I'd had was: Donner said he never wanted to do another superhero film, because he lacked confidence he could do it as good as this- but, I would have loved to have seen him try Batman as well. Or Supergirl. Can you imagine? |
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Post by Metallo on May 30, 2023 21:38:21 GMT -5
The problem is Gamora had her own story going on with Quill and Thanos so it made sense to separate the group and let their own personal stories play out. True.... I was trying to think of which character would have made Thor's revelation land more- beside the CGI Rocket Racoon- but maybe... Mantis? In any case, with so many balls juggled in the air for the plot, it's still great that the other pairings came up with a lot of great material, considering how rare it had to be to get the schedulings of all the great talent lined up to make it happen. Nah. Mantis didn’t have the right personality to play off Thor when it came to that moment. She also didn’t have the history and as much of a connection with the audience. Rocket had all the emotional baggage and the chip on his shoulder to make that scene with Thor work. He’s a kindred spirit in a lot of ways. That cgi Raccoon has ended up being one of the best deepest characters in the MCU. It’s stuff like that that made GOTG work. |
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Metallo
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Post by Metallo on May 30, 2023 21:57:03 GMT -5
I find this difficult to answer. None of those other films do anything for me. I honestly think that I am not a superhero fan. To me, the Reeve Superman movies (especially STM) are romantic fantasy movies and not superhero movies. James Cameron said that all of his films were at the core romance films- when looking at the superhero films that really connect or work, arguably they all had a relationship of some sort at the center of it. Spiderman 2 (the best one imo) had Peter Parker's struggle between a real desire for a kind of life with healthy relationships- but also the cost of being a superhero. Dark Knight also had that (sortof) as well... Logan also- though as a father relationship with his daughter. So, maybe it's more that a superhero film NEEDS to be more about a character's desire for a 'normal' life (or containing a peaceful world to fight for, for that)to really be a good one. I don’t know about romance but love is at the core of all Camerons films. Love of something or someone. With Aliens it’s the love between a mother and child. Newt basically becomes Ripley’s surrogate daughter. The extended version makes it even more powerful. With many of the best superhero films there’s always that balance between the heroes feelings and the heroes duty. Sometimes it’s represented in literally having to choose who they save. Superman did it. Batman Forever did it. Spider-Man did it. Dark Knight did it. Logan did it. A few MCU films did it. There are several examples. |
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Post by Metallo on May 30, 2023 22:06:50 GMT -5
I put STM into a similar category to Close Encounters of the Third Kind and E.T. A fantasy movie with some sci-fi trappings. I always wonder about what Mank said- that he had said to Donner (Or was it the other way around?)- that if they could get the romance to work, that everything else would- and in thinking about and rewatching the film- it really is true. Despite the sometimes silly humor and different tones (though intentional) - the reality of the relationship onscreen (and charm of it) is what gives STM its main core. If the romance had no real weight - then, there still would have been the other neat bits- but definitely a lot would have been lost without the magic generated by not just Reeve and Kidder's chemistry- but how it was written/directed. The balcony scene just had so many layers of charm and humor- someone had remarked how it felt like the nervous energy of a first date, and it comes off that way in a sense. Another thought I'd had was: Donner said he never wanted to do another superhero film, because he lacked confidence he could do it as good as this- but, I would have loved to have seen him try Batman as well. Or Supergirl. Can you imagine? Superman the movie working hinges on the relationships between the characters and how they drive the story. It’s why Man or Steel simply doesn’t work. The characters and their relationships are either secondary or poorly developed and explored. STM does more with Pa Kent in 5 minutes than Snyder ever did on his films. The Reeve Superman sequels didn’t need to bring him back in some stupid dream sequence on a snowy mountain. He worked so well and his relationship with Clark and what he taught him was so on point that it still resonated in later films. If Donner had done another superhero film I’d want something different from Superman. He’d already done that. I would have loved to have see what he found have done with some Marvel characters. The problem is there a generational issue. Donner got Superman because he was part of that first generation of children to grow up with him. It’s why he felt he had to “protect him” from someone else screwing it up. Donner was a great director but I’m not sure he “got” the heroes that came out of the 60’s as well as he got Superman. It was a different era of heroes and stories made for a new generation of young people. |
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