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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 3:07:51 GMT -5
Wow. Could things have been EVEN worse than Lester's contributions? Well- playing that game of shaving costs- Imagine Canon having taken over for a minute.... #1: The budget gets hacked and slashed- of course. #2: No Paris opening (which I'm ok with) - but with costs being extra low, we don't even get the poor added fx shots added in the RDC, but a cardboard Lois falling fx shot. (Or no fx shots, somehow she jumps out the window & then does'nt bounce off the awning, but straight into the fruit stand) #3: Niagara scene rewritten so that you don't actually see Superman save the kid, but it's talked about in dialogue. off-camera!!! (Imagine the savings!!!)  #4: For SURE we would have had the hotel screen test instead of an actual scene! #5: Questionable if Canon wanted to pay Susannah York's fee for SII- so, we get the cheaper actor who first speaks, with Lester's rat wig on to portray Lara! #6: For the scene where Supes goes to get the flower, it's off camera.... or rewritten so that Supes just walks into the next room... or no flower. (Rewrite it so that Lois already ate dinner so, saving props) Again, more savings! #7: On the plus side, Lester's ridiculous additions of all the visual gags from the Metro battle is nixed- unfortunately, there's only one battle shot done by Donner where Supes punches Non and another where he's knocked into the statue of liberty. (Which is actually probably more exciting anyways considering how short the Lester battle was). #8: The bus tossed at Supes is downscaled as too costly.... so, it's either a miniature shot completely or a bicycle is replaced as the vehicle that Ursa and NOn toss at Supes.... and the line is rewritten from "Nnnooo! The peeoople!!!" to "Nnnooo! The bicycle!!!". #9: The memory kiss scene is considered too costly for the grand finale, so Canon just recycles the end of STM.... wait.... didn't the RDC do this, too??? ;p |
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 11, 2023 6:36:11 GMT -5
I’ve often pondered how the Superman franchise would have been if they had started with lower budgets. Donner mentioned that when he signed on, he was told that all of the prep work for the flying units were ready, utilizing all of the known techniques of wire work and front projection and Donner scrapped all of it because it didn’t look real to him. This push undoubtedly made the films better but it drove the budget higher and higher. Another question to ponder is if the first two Superman movies would have been just as successful with budgets that matched Superman IV’s.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 11, 2023 11:11:29 GMT -5
Imagine Ursa and Non carrying Luthor and Lois respectively ....in space.....and that's Superman IV BS applied to SII , in a nutsheck!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 11:49:03 GMT -5
I’ve often pondered how the Superman franchise would have been if they had started with lower budgets. Donner mentioned that when he signed on, he was told that all of the prep work for the flying units were ready, utilizing all of the known techniques of wire work and front projection and Donner scrapped all of it because it didn’t look real to him. This push undoubtedly made the films better but it drove the budget higher and higher. Another question to ponder is if the first two Superman movies would have been just as successful with budgets that matched Superman IV’s. I also wonder- given Donner's immense tv credits - if he would have scaled down everything to fit a smaller budget. The eternal arguments (that we'll never know the truth of)- (1) Is Donner's arguments that he never could get the budget from the producers, affecting his process, constantly putting him under stress. (2) Is Spengler's arguments that Donner was too much of a perfectionist and kept pushing things over budget. It is true based on the filmography of the Salkinds that the biggest prior films with Three Musketeers/Four Musketeers couldn't nearly be the same challenge as making a first-ever convincing set of Superman movies with tech that had to be invented for the first time... But- There's this... If the cast were still the same, and the human moments were the same- but the effects were shoddy- (because of a Canon budget)- maybe the movie wouldn't have been the blockbuster it was.... but you'd still have the A-list cast with great performances and well-written scenes. What I imagine would have stayed the same (that wouldn't seem to cost a lot--- and assuming the sets would be cheaper and the fx would be all cardboard) #1: The balcony scenes #2: The dramatic scenes of the trial on Krypton (minus the big sets) #3: The great Hackman/Villains scenes Presumably, many of the best scenes that didn't require spectacle still would have had great performances. One wonders if there were a better working relationship between the Salkinds and Donner, if- even with a lowered budget- maybe the box office might have been lower, but still profitable and Donner would have continued to make more Superman sequels- but within a modest budget. Lester for sure could have done it (and he did with SIII)- but his aesthetics for Superman were anything but sentimental. It might have also been successful (as SIII did turn a profit) but it would have had a more "Ant-Man" like tone to it, versus wearing its heart on its sleeve (but with a sense of humor) as was Donner's version. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 11:55:04 GMT -5
Imagine Ursa and Non carrying Luthor and Lois respectively ....in space.....and that's Superman IV BS applied to SII , in a nutsheck! I'm still suprised at myself that to me- Lacey in space in SIV- was the least of SIV's errors! Still glad that they tried- but, it also made it a little easier to say 'goodbye' to the Reeve Superman franchise. And- it is interesting to hear about younger fans who caught SIV in the theatres at the time as their FIRST Reeve Superman film and loved it! (I hear similar stories about ROTJ being the first Star Wars film for younger folks than me and having no issues with Luke and Leia being twins- but it makes sense, if that was the first exposure to the series) At the same time- I do wonder how people who experienced SIV first, felt when they eventually (I assume) saw STM-SIII. That has to be weird, to say the least. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 12, 2023 5:05:44 GMT -5
Imagine Ursa and Non carrying Luthor and Lois respectively ....in space.....and that's Superman IV BS applied to SII , in a nutsheck! I'm still suprised at myself that to me- Lacey in space in SIV- was the least of SIV's errors! Still glad that they tried- but, it also made it a little easier to say 'goodbye' to the Reeve Superman franchise. And- it is interesting to hear about younger fans who caught SIV in the theatres at the time as their FIRST Reeve Superman film and loved it! (I hear similar stories about ROTJ being the first Star Wars film for younger folks than me and having no issues with Luke and Leia being twins- but it makes sense, if that was the first exposure to the series) At the same time- I do wonder how people who experienced SIV first, felt when they eventually (I assume) saw STM-SIII. That has to be weird, to say the least. Regarding the use of SuperLacy in space.....for me it's the most egregious of SIV's errors! And it's downright unforgivable! And Reeve, as a contributing scriptwriter, has to shoulder the blame as much as anyone else for that glaring mistake. In terms of the impact of SIV on a Reeve first timer, that's a question that only Martin Lakin can answer! Martin and I are both from the UK and the same age. We both saw SIV in 1987 as 12 year olds. I have to speculate on my part but I do believe that even if I had never seen any of the Reeve films by 1987, that I would have still had the same reaction. One of complete and total disgust. Despite being too young to see Predator in the cinema in 1987....I was hearing great things from older friends and through word of mouth. Jeez, even standard kiddie fair stuff from Disney like Flight Of The Navigator(released in the UK in the spring of 87') simply blew SIV out of the water! Quite frankly I wonder if Lakin had seen any other movies at all prior to watching SIV! Maybe it's a discussion for another thread and a philosophical one at that. But nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything is part of a whole from a perceptual perspective. From politics to love to societal infrastructures ect ect. Movie watching is no different. Comparisons between movies are always being made, subconsciously or subliminally. I see on one of the other threads that you and Kamdan were questioning(and rightly so) Lucas's ability as a script writer. But that was the magic of Star Wars, that despite suffering from some of George's clunky dialogue and exposition, that it still stood out like a sore thumb from an audio/visual/kinetic perspective, from the rest of the crowd. I mean what else was there in 77' or the mid 70s in general? Annie Hall(a very fine picture by the way!) Smokey And The Bandit? Saturday Night Fever? Julia? A Bridge Too Far The Sorcerer(a superb film....unjustly obscured by Star Wars). All fine films.....but Star Wars was different. Or from a science fiction angle....... Logan's Run,Silent Running,Soylent Green,The Andromeda Strain(excellent film),WestWorld,Sinbad & The Eye Of The Tiger(lol!) ...jeez, even the original Batman films from the 60s! ect ect. Again...lots of fun to be had with all the above(indeed I have them all in me collection).......but they don't hold a candle to Star Wars(IMHO!). I know it's a cliche' but timing is everything in art. Lucas , despite his deficiencies, struck at absolutely the right time. Furie not only struck at the wrong time with SIV - by that point, Top Gun was still doing the rounds - Predator and Aliens were upping the ante' for dramatic science fiction, Star Trek IV showed how sequels and lovable characters could be maintained within the popular zeitgeist - Dangerous Liasons( a film that Reeve turned down?) kept audiences on the edge of their seats. Even The Living Daylights was executed well from a technical perspective, despite having a new Bond who was finding his feat. Flight Of The Navigator broke new ground with embrionic CG effects. And in comes this turd called Superman IV! Enough said! Lakin needs a wake up call. Ollie Harper, who like me, hails from Cambridge....came to his senses very quickly after seing STM and the rest after his initial radioactive exposure to SIV! On edit: I realized I mised off Close Encounters from the 1977 list of rivals to Star Wars. A great film in my view, but some reviewers found it a touch boring. From a visual perspective, it takes off in the final 30 mins or so.....and the rousing Williams music gives it an emotional send off. But even Spielberg said that it played second fiddle to Star Wars from a visual perspective. |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jun 12, 2023 7:14:08 GMT -5
But nothing exists in a vacuum. Nuclearman and Lacey did |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 12, 2023 9:55:08 GMT -5
But nothing exists in a vacuum. Nuclearman and Lacey did hehe Maybe Konner,Rosenthal and Reeve also lived in a scriptwriting vacuum when they wrote down the darn sequence - lol! Unbelievable. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 12, 2023 10:00:32 GMT -5
If we are being ultra critical for SII, of course, cosmanaut Boris and co would not have been able to speak to Zod,Ursa and co on the moon,either.
Also, Ursa makes a reference to how Non crushed the lunar module "like paper".
Unless she was refering to Kryptonian paper???!!
Anyways, Mank and Donner shoulder the blame for those.
Lester also takes the blame for not noticing!
But if Donner(if he had been allowed to finish) or Lester noticed the error and tried to fix the "no talking on the moon" conundrum.....how would they have approached it in post production?
Maybe through the use of subtitles?
Ursa:
"You.....what kind of creature are you?"
Cosmanaut:
"what the f**k are ya sayin' , baby?"!
Maybe the kryptonians could have used some form of telepathic communication....like Lady Galadriel in Fellowship Of The Ring.
It may have violated comic book canon....but it would have maintained the reality of physics.
Anyways.
40 years too late!
lol!
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Post by atp on Jun 12, 2023 12:03:20 GMT -5
If we are being ultra critical for SII, of course, cosmanaut Boris and co would not have been able to speak to Zod,Ursa and co on the moon,either. Also, Ursa makes a reference to how Non crushed the lunar module "like paper". Unless she was refering to Kryptonian paper???!! Anyways, Mank and Donner shoulder the blame for those. Lester also takes the blame for not noticing! But if Donner(if he had been allowed to finish) or Lester noticed the error and tried to fix the "no talking on the moon" conundrum.....how would they have approached it in post production? Maybe through the use of subtitles? Ursa: "You.....what kind of creature are you?" Cosmanaut: "what the f**k are ya sayin' , baby?"! Maybe the kryptonians could have used some form of telepathic communication....like Lady Galadriel in Fellowship Of The Ring. It may have violated comic book canon....but it would have maintained the reality of physics. Anyways. 40 years too late! lol! It wasn't crushing the spaceship that was described as being like paper. It was her tearing of the metal fibres. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2023 14:17:53 GMT -5
..... Maybe it's a discussion for another thread and a philosophical one at that. But nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything is part of a whole from a perceptual perspective. From politics to love to societal infrastructures ect ect. Movie watching is no different. Comparisons between movies are always being made, subconsciously or subliminally. I see on one of the other threads that you and Kamdan were questioning(and rightly so) Lucas's ability as a script writer. But that was the magic of Star Wars, that despite suffering from some of George's clunky dialogue and exposition, that it still stood out like a sore thumb from an audio/visual/kinetic perspective, from the rest of the crowd. I mean what else was there in 77' or the mid 70s in general? Annie Hall(a very fine picture by the way!) Smokey And The Bandit? Saturday Night Fever? Julia? A Bridge Too Far The Sorcerer(a superb film....unjustly obscured by Star Wars). All fine films.....but Star Wars was different. Or from a science fiction angle....... Logan's Run,Silent Running,Soylent Green,The Andromeda Strain(excellent film),WestWorld,Sinbad & The Eye Of The Tiger(lol!) ...jeez, even the original Batman films from the 60s! ect ect. Again...lots of fun to be had with all the above(indeed I have them all in me collection).......but they don't hold a candle to Star Wars(IMHO!). I know it's a cliche' but timing is everything in art. Lucas , despite his deficiencies, struck at absolutely the right time. Furie not only struck at the wrong time with SIV - by that point, Top Gun was still doing the rounds - Predator and Aliens were upping the ante' for dramatic science fiction, Star Trek IV showed how sequels and lovable characters could be maintained within the popular zeitgeist - Dangerous Liasons( a film that Reeve turned down?) kept audiences on the edge of their seats. Even The Living Daylights was executed well from a technical perspective, despite having a new Bond who was finding his feat. Flight Of The Navigator broke new ground with embrionic CG effects. And in comes this turd called Superman IV! Enough said! Lakin needs a wake up call. Ollie Harper, who like me, hails from Cambridge....came to his senses very quickly after seing STM and the rest after his initial radioactive exposure to SIV! On edit: I realized I mised off Close Encounters from the 1977 list of rivals to Star Wars. A great film in my view, but some reviewers found it a touch boring. From a visual perspective, it takes off in the final 30 mins or so.....and the rousing Williams music gives it an emotional send off. But even Spielberg said that it played second fiddle to Star Wars from a visual perspective. I had zero problems with the scripts (or dialogue) for the original Star Wars & Empire Strikes back - those two are 'for the vaults' imo- but if the readings were correct about the other screenwriters, then he didn't write the scripts (nor dialogue) for the final shooting script for SW: A new hope! So my criticism is about Lucas the screenwriter- but the dialogue was fine for me on the original trilogy. When I talk of folks viewing SIV 'at the right age'---- It's subjective. There's a 'golden period' I feel between childhood to the edge of being a snarky cynical dark unpleasant teen where one is more open, accepting, and cool with things imperfect--- SIV- is a mess, but I could easily see a kid who didn't see a lot of the other cool movies first totally loving it, in the way tha I loved the cheesy Godzilla movies where it was obvious that it was a guy in a suit and bad dubbing or the Wolfman or Frankenstein movies of the 50's. With CE3k..... I had the worst first experience in having the usher let me in (accidentally) to the theatre and see the LAST ten minutes from a prior show before seeing the actual movie! Worst spoiler event in my movie history! But- seeing it in a megatheatre with fantastic audio was still dazzling, but the story was ruined completely for me. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2023 14:22:31 GMT -5
If we are being ultra critical for SII, of course, cosmanaut Boris and co would not have been able to speak to Zod,Ursa and co on the moon,either. Also, Ursa makes a reference to how Non crushed the lunar module "like paper". Unless she was refering to Kryptonian paper???!! Anyways, Mank and Donner shoulder the blame for those. Lester also takes the blame for not noticing! But if Donner(if he had been allowed to finish) or Lester noticed the error and tried to fix the "no talking on the moon" conundrum.....how would they have approached it in post production? Maybe through the use of subtitles? Ursa: "You.....what kind of creature are you?" Cosmanaut: "what the f**k are ya sayin' , baby?"! Maybe the kryptonians could have used some form of telepathic communication....like Lady Galadriel in Fellowship Of The Ring. It may have violated comic book canon....but it would have maintained the reality of physics. Anyways. 40 years too late! lol! Nah, I'll always only be ultra-critical of Lester. (Kidding! Kidder! I mean... kidding!) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 12, 2023 18:46:15 GMT -5
atphehe Correct you are , about the metal fibres! I have probably seen SII more times than I can remember. Better get out the UHD and give it another whirl.....as there is obviously some more dialogue that I gotta get down!
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 13, 2023 0:37:40 GMT -5
If we are being ultra critical for SII, of course, cosmanaut Boris and co would not have been able to speak to Zod,Ursa and co on the moon,either. Also, Ursa makes a reference to how Non crushed the lunar module "like paper". Unless she was refering to Kryptonian paper???!! Anyways, Mank and Donner shoulder the blame for those. Lester also takes the blame for not noticing! But if Donner(if he had been allowed to finish) or Lester noticed the error and tried to fix the "no talking on the moon" conundrum.....how would they have approached it in post production? Maybe through the use of subtitles? Ursa: "You.....what kind of creature are you?" Cosmanaut: "what the f**k are ya sayin' , baby?"! Maybe the kryptonians could have used some form of telepathic communication....like Lady Galadriel in Fellowship Of The Ring. It may have violated comic book canon....but it would have maintained the reality of physics. Anyways. 40 years too late! lol! It wasn't crushing the spaceship that was described as being like paper. It was her tearing of the metal fibres. That's not true at all. Ursa was referring to ripping open the mans nutsack as if it were paper. |
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Post by atp on Jun 13, 2023 0:54:47 GMT -5
atphehe Correct you are , about the metal fibres! I have probably seen SII more times than I can remember. Better get out the UHD and give it another whirl.....as there is obviously some more dialogue that I gotta get down! I have seen S2 so many times as a child that I probably still know all the lines |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 14, 2023 17:16:25 GMT -5
CAM wrote; Agreed with all the above. I would add that the Godzilla films never pretended to be anything other than what they were. The Superman films, at least by the time of IV,from a qualatitive standpoint, were expected to be at a certain level , in terms of acting proficiency,editing and technical effects. And SIV betrayed all those aspects. Despite this, the promotion for SIV still attempted to parade the film as if it was of the quality of the original and better than the sequels! "His most important adventure": "His greatest adventure": Letterman: "So how is it?.....is it a good movie?" Kidder: "Yeah!" @28:19 I can only think of one response:  |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2023 18:24:15 GMT -5
CAM wrote; Agreed with all the above. I would add that the Godzilla films never pretended to be anything other than what they were. The Superman films, at least by the time of IV,from a qualatitive standpoint, were expected to be at a certain level , in terms of acting proficiency,editing and technical effects. And SIV betrayed all those aspects. Despite this, the promotion for SIV still attempted to parade the film as if it was of the quality of the original and better than the sequels! "His most important adventure": "His greatest adventure": Letterman: "So how is it?.....is it a good movie?" Kidder: "Yeah!" @28:19 I can only think of one response: I don't ever blame a marketing (or advertising) department for being less than 100 percent truthful.... it's like believing hype. Or actors who promote a film that is horrible by the time it's finished that they end up being disappointed in or know is a turd... #1: They're contractually obligated to- if one had a dime for every film that an actor promoted that they didn't even see or believed in.... #2: Actors also aren't necessarily objective about their own films. I remember briefly doing wedding videos that I considered cinematic masterpieces (kidding)- with editing, special effects, etc.--- and then having the folks involved only noticing if they looked fat or not! Not the same thing, I know... but sometimes I imagine it is, when it's actors looking at their own films! #3: Presumably they TRIED to do a good film. And maybe the did feel it was good enough. (Also, they might have seen the film's rough cut minus fx) As far as presenting oneself truthfully and feeling like someone intentionally misrepresented something, I go back to Lester and the editing of "The Making of Superman II"! (but I'll get off that horse.... for two hours, anyways. ) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 15, 2023 13:19:32 GMT -5
@cam Agree with your points made in the last post(apart from the Lester one ofcourse!) But have you heard this interview from 1987 with Furie? voicesfromkrypton.net/superman-iv-sidney-furie-interview/What's interesting for me personally, is that he confirms that he was involved with the editing of the picture. Also, he declares that his favourite parts of the Supes series up until that point.....were the romantic flight from STM and the SII memory kiss. Too bad he failed in his re-rendition of both those sequences. He does accentuate how the background templates(NYC, San Franscisco ect) are of vastly superior quality to anything that came prior. The only problem was the actual compositing of the live action chraracters(Supes/Nuclear Man/Lois/Lacy) onto said templates.....something that Furie refrains from mentioning. |
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