dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 2, 2023 2:37:19 GMT -5
"You always wanted Donner's SII to fly, Crown." "Well now's it's chance!" (Hurls Donner Cut DVD into the Lester Compressor) Jumps out of trash compactor and strangles Lester II. Stands and triumphantly opens shirt to reveal Donner's SII! Flies out of the junkyard with the John Williams music roaring and undoes Rat Lois, Parody Planet-Houston Zod, and Guy talking on knocked over phone booth. CAM: "Would you look at that!" Flies past CAM and waves at him! Dejan: So you finally showed your true colors! Lester Cut: "I can give as good as I get!" Donner Cut: "Oh yeah....come on.......COME ON!" Lester cut head buts incomplete and poorly edited Daily Planet jump out of the window scene,crass toilet humor of Lex, Otis and Eve ,shoddily put together auditions of Reeve and Kidder ,over hyped and under peformed Brando scenes and turning back the world nonsense........into a resevoir of acid! |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 2:49:20 GMT -5
Jumps out of trash compactor and strangles Lester II. Stands and triumphantly opens shirt to reveal Donner's SII! Flies out of the junkyard with the John Williams music roaring and undoes Rat Lois, Parody Planet-Houston Zod, and Guy talking on knocked over phone booth. CAM: "Would you look at that!" Flies past CAM and waves at him! Dejan: So you finally showed your true colors! Lester Cut: "I can give as good as I get!" Donner Cut: "Oh yeah....come on.......COME ON!" Lester cut head buts incomplete and poorly edited Daily Planet jump out of the window scene,crass toilet humor of Lex, Otis and Eve ,shoddily put together auditions of Reeve and Kidder ,over hyped and under peformed Brando scenes and turning back the world nonsense........into a resevoir of acid! Donner Cut jumps out of the acid and blows it into Lester Cut. Donner Cut: What's the matter Lester too warm for ya huh!? You been on my nerves for a long time! (Grabs large piece of metal) Stupid boring Paris terrorists! (SMACK!) Lame Orange Juice jokes (SMACK!) Goofy East Houston hillbillies (SMACK!) Superman throwing a cellophane S (SMACK!) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 2, 2023 3:53:19 GMT -5
Lester Cut: "I can give as good as I get!" Donner Cut: "Oh yeah....come on.......COME ON!" Lester cut head buts incomplete and poorly edited Daily Planet jump out of the window scene,crass toilet humor of Lex, Otis and Eve ,shoddily put together auditions of Reeve and Kidder ,over hyped and under peformed Brando scenes and turning back the world nonsense........into a resevoir of acid! Donner Cut jumps out of the acid and blows it into Lester Cut. Donner Cut: What's the matter Lester too warm for ya huh!? You been on my nerves for a long time! (Grabs large piece of metal) Stupid boring Paris terrorists! (SMACK!) Lame Orange Juice jokes (SMACK!) Goofy East Houston hillbillies (SMACK!) Superman throwing a cellophane S (SMACK!) LesterMan: "Chief......how can I help?" Salkinds: "Get this man a producer's job...(turns round)........oh it's you.....forget the producer's job" LesterMan: "How bad is it?" Salkinds: "My god LesterMan........it's a nightmare.....everything in there is either explosive(looks at Niagra Falls audition tapes)....inflammable(looks at Brando scenes) or worse(looks at turning back the world footage) LesterMan takes off. Salkinds: "What's he gonna do?........excise all the incomplete scenes.....one at a time?" LesterMan lifts up funnel:saves Lex and Otis prison escape, Villains on Moon,White House and Diner scenes. Villains taking over the world script, Brando ,Daily Planet jumping out the window and back at the Daily Planet after turning back the world scenes blow up/burn down in fire! |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 4:09:42 GMT -5
Donner Cut jumps out of the acid and blows it into Lester Cut. Donner Cut: What's the matter Lester too warm for ya huh!? You been on my nerves for a long time! (Grabs large piece of metal) Stupid boring Paris terrorists! (SMACK!) Lame Orange Juice jokes (SMACK!) Goofy East Houston hillbillies (SMACK!) Superman throwing a cellophane S (SMACK!) LesterMan: "Chief......how can I help?" Salkinds: "Get this man a producer's job...(turns round)........oh it's you.....forget the producer's job" LesterMan: "How bad is it?" Salkinds: "My god LesterMan........it's a nightmare.....everything in there is either explosive(looks at Niagra Falls audition tapes)....inflammable(looks at Brando scenes) or worse(looks at turning back the world footage) LesterMan takes off. Salkinds: "What's he gonna do?........excise all the incomplete scenes.....one at a time?" LesterMan lifts up funnel:saves Lex and Otis prison escape, Villains on Moon,White House and Diner scenes. Villains taking over the world script, Brando ,Daily Planet jumping out the window and back at the Daily Planet after turning back the world scenes blow up/burn down in fire! Salkinds: The films is now incomplete! We lost half the film! We got to have new cheap footage! There's a pile of manure 5 miles from here but we haven't got a 5 mile camera! Lesterman: Where's this shiit? Salkinds: That a way! Lesterman flies off with his camera to finish shooting Superman II |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 2, 2023 4:31:54 GMT -5
LesterMan: "Chief......how can I help?" Salkinds: "Get this man a producer's job...(turns round)........oh it's you.....forget the producer's job" LesterMan: "How bad is it?" Salkinds: "My god LesterMan........it's a nightmare.....everything in there is either explosive(looks at Niagra Falls audition tapes)....inflammable(looks at Brando scenes) or worse(looks at turning back the world footage) LesterMan takes off. Salkinds: "What's he gonna do?........excise all the incomplete scenes.....one at a time?" LesterMan lifts up funnel:saves Lex and Otis prison escape, Villains on Moon,White House and Diner scenes. Villains taking over the world script, Brando ,Daily Planet jumping out the window and back at the Daily Planet after turning back the world scenes blow up/burn down in fire! Salkinds: The films is now incomplete! We lost half the film! We got to have new cheap footage! There's a pile of manure 5 miles from here but we haven't got a 5 mile camera! Lesterman: Where's this shiit? Salkinds: That a way! Lesterman flies off with his camera to finish shooting Superman II LesterMan returns with newly shot material, now on ice. Drops it on the raging, destructive inferno below , that is the incomplete Donner footage! Iced up new LesterMan footage quells the uncontrollable fires of the Donner scenes(Niagra auditions/turning back the world) . Salkinds: "I 'll tell ya.......that man is a miracle"! |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 2, 2023 19:28:54 GMT -5
Salkinds: The films is now incomplete! We lost half the film! We got to have new cheap footage! There's a pile of manure 5 miles from here but we haven't got a 5 mile camera! Lesterman: Where's this shiit? Salkinds: That a way! Lesterman flies off with his camera to finish shooting Superman II LesterMan returns with newly shot material, now on ice. Drops it on the raging, destructive inferno below , that is the incomplete Donner footage! Iced up new LesterMan footage quells the uncontrollable fires of the Donner scenes(Niagra auditions/turning back the world) . Salkinds: "I 'll tell ya.......that man is a miracle"! Salkinds: “I’ll talk ya that man is a miracle!” (Allows Lester to make Superman 3). Oh I guess Lester wasn’t so great afterall. I guess without the advantage of standing on the shoulders of Donner he sucks!” |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 3, 2023 8:03:11 GMT -5
LesterMan returns with newly shot material, now on ice. Drops it on the raging, destructive inferno below , that is the incomplete Donner footage! Iced up new LesterMan footage quells the uncontrollable fires of the Donner scenes(Niagra auditions/turning back the world) . Salkinds: "I 'll tell ya.......that man is a miracle"! Salkinds: “I’ll talk ya that man is a miracle!” (Allows Lester to make Superman 3). Oh I guess Lester wasn’t so great afterall. I guess without the advantage of standing on the shoulders of Donner he sucks!” hehe There is hardly a filmaker out there who has not suffered from some form of inconstincencyenitis! For those directors who shot stuff back to back: Zemekis could not maintain form for Back To The Future 2 & 3. The Wachowskis were happless within Matrix 2 & 3. Jackson was highly inconsistent within The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy(Fellowship was a snoozefest,Two Towers was better,Return Of The King was bloated and flattered to deceive - has also not aged well at all)and let's not even mention the debacle that was The Hobbit Trilogy! Yates struggled with Harry Potter's Deathly Hallows Parts 1 & 2(I think both of them are sh*t....but that's my opinion!) Verbinski messed up Pirates 2 & 3 One could argue that the Russos managed to hold true for Endgame and Infinity War.....I am a fan of both, but these movies are heavily dependent on being familiar with pretty much all the Marvel stuff that came before.....or they ain't gonna mean a whole lot(IMHO). So, using those examples as templates......there is no guarantee that had Donner finished in 79', that it would have been an automatic home run. Also, given the fact that there was a break in shooting , neccessitating a resumption in the latter part of 1979......how much would that gap have effected the consistency of the overall product? Also worth baring in mind that Donner would have been without Brando,Barry,Unsworth,Bowies and Weevers, all key players for STM's quality, had he been allowed to resume in 79'. For directors who returned to the same projects after time away: Zemekis failed to recapture the magic of Back To The Future 1. Ditto for The Wachowskis with Matrix 2 & 3 , relative to Matrix 1. Jackson all but pissed over whatever integrity he created for the Original Lord Of The Rings Trilogy....with the Hobbit Trilogy. Lucas has the same problem with the prequel trilogy(in the sense of being unable to match the original Star Wars). Scott made a joke of the Alien franchise with Prometheus and Covenenant. Spielberg came unstuck a couple of times with Last Crusade and definitely with Crystal Skull. Coppola made a lackluster Godfather Part 3. Favreau screwed Iron Man 2. Wheddon struggled with Age Of Ultron. heck.....look at Stallone with Rocky's II,III and IV! Donner himself ultimately missed the mark with Lethal Weapon 3 & 4(relative to 1 & 2). So whilst I agree that Superman III was not as good as I and II........it's nothing unsual(unfortunately) that Lester failed to maintain consistency from a qualatitive aspect. To be fair Lester did shoot The 3 & 4 Musky's as one movie.....then divided it in to 2 in post production. I think both are great , and favour 4 over 3(CAM prefers 3 over 4). Quite an accomplishment considering this was done in the pre CG era. So it's all opinions at the at end of the day.....but hopefully you will understand my reasoning.....if not my conclusion! Anyways, respect your opinion dude. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 3, 2023 12:56:49 GMT -5
Salkinds: “I’ll talk ya that man is a miracle!” (Allows Lester to make Superman 3). Oh I guess Lester wasn’t so great afterall. I guess without the advantage of standing on the shoulders of Donner he sucks!” hehe There is hardly a filmaker out there who has not suffered from some form of inconstincencyenitis! For those directors who shot stuff back to back: Zemekis could not maintain form for Back To The Future 2 & 3. The Wachowskis were happless within Matrix 2 & 3. Jackson was highly inconsistent within The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy(Fellowship was a snoozefest,Two Towers was better,Return Of The King was bloated and flattered to deceive - has also not aged well at all)and let's not even mention the debacle that was The Hobbit Trilogy! Yates struggled with Harry Potter's Deathly Hallows Parts 1 & 2(I think both of them are sh*t....but that's my opinion!) Verbinski messed up Pirates 2 & 3 One could argue that the Russos managed to hold true for Endgame and Infinity War.....I am a fan of both, but these movies are heavily dependent on being familiar with pretty much all the Marvel stuff that came before.....or they ain't gonna mean a whole lot(IMHO). So, using those examples as templates......there is no guarantee that had Donner finished in 79', that it would have been an automatic home run. Also, given the fact that there was a break in shooting , neccessitating a resumption in the latter part of 1979......how much would that gap have effected the consistency of the overall product? Also worth baring in mind that Donner would have been without Brando,Barry,Unsworth,Bowies and Weevers, all key players for STM's quality, had he been allowed to resume in 79'. For directors who returned to the same projects after time away: Zemekis failed to recapture the magic of Back To The Future 1. Ditto for The Wachowskis with Matrix 2 & 3 , relative to Matrix 1. Jackson all but pissed over whatever integrity he created for the Original Lord Of The Rings Trilogy....with the Hobbit Trilogy. Lucas has the same problem with the prequel trilogy(in the sense of being unable to match the original Star Wars). Scott made a joke of the Alien franchise with Prometheus and Covenenant. Spielberg came unstuck a couple of times with Last Crusade and definitely with Crystal Skull. Coppola made a lackluster Godfather Part 3. Favreau screwed Iron Man 2. Wheddon strugged with Age Of Ultron. heck.....look at Stallone with Rocky's II,III and IV! Donner himself ultimately missed the mark with Lethal Weapon 3 & 4(relative to 1 & 2). So whilst I agree that Superman III was not as good as I and II........it's nothing unsual(unfortunately) that Lester failed to maintain consistency from a qualatitive aspect. To be fair Lester did shoot The 3 & 4 Musky's as one movie.....then divided it in to 2 in post production. I think both are great , and favour 4 over 3(CAM prefers 3 over 4). Quite an accomplishment considering this was done in the pre CG era. So it's all opinions at the at end of the day.....but hopefully you will understand my reasoning.....if not my conclusion! Anyways, respect your opinion dude. I can respect someone preferring the Lester Cut over the Donner cut because the Donner cut isn’t a finished film. What I can’t respect is someone believing that the Lester cut is superior to the SII that Donner would have finished. So because of this, I’m going to have to pound you into the moon. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 3, 2023 18:55:11 GMT -5
hehe There is hardly a filmaker out there who has not suffered from some form of inconstincencyenitis! For those directors who shot stuff back to back: Zemekis could not maintain form for Back To The Future 2 & 3. The Wachowskis were happless within Matrix 2 & 3. Jackson was highly inconsistent within The Lord Of The Rings Trilogy(Fellowship was a snoozefest,Two Towers was better,Return Of The King was bloated and flattered to deceive - has also not aged well at all)and let's not even mention the debacle that was The Hobbit Trilogy! Yates struggled with Harry Potter's Deathly Hallows Parts 1 & 2(I think both of them are sh*t....but that's my opinion!) Verbinski messed up Pirates 2 & 3 One could argue that the Russos managed to hold true for Endgame and Infinity War.....I am a fan of both, but these movies are heavily dependent on being familiar with pretty much all the Marvel stuff that came before.....or they ain't gonna mean a whole lot(IMHO). So, using those examples as templates......there is no guarantee that had Donner finished in 79', that it would have been an automatic home run. Also, given the fact that there was a break in shooting , neccessitating a resumption in the latter part of 1979......how much would that gap have effected the consistency of the overall product? Also worth baring in mind that Donner would have been without Brando,Barry,Unsworth,Bowies and Weevers, all key players for STM's quality, had he been allowed to resume in 79'. For directors who returned to the same projects after time away: Zemekis failed to recapture the magic of Back To The Future 1. Ditto for The Wachowskis with Matrix 2 & 3 , relative to Matrix 1. Jackson all but pissed over whatever integrity he created for the Original Lord Of The Rings Trilogy....with the Hobbit Trilogy. Lucas has the same problem with the prequel trilogy(in the sense of being unable to match the original Star Wars). Scott made a joke of the Alien franchise with Prometheus and Covenenant. Spielberg came unstuck a couple of times with Last Crusade and definitely with Crystal Skull. Coppola made a lackluster Godfather Part 3. Favreau screwed Iron Man 2. Wheddon strugged with Age Of Ultron. heck.....look at Stallone with Rocky's II,III and IV! Donner himself ultimately missed the mark with Lethal Weapon 3 & 4(relative to 1 & 2). So whilst I agree that Superman III was not as good as I and II........it's nothing unsual(unfortunately) that Lester failed to maintain consistency from a qualatitive aspect. To be fair Lester did shoot The 3 & 4 Musky's as one movie.....then divided it in to 2 in post production. I think both are great , and favour 4 over 3(CAM prefers 3 over 4). Quite an accomplishment considering this was done in the pre CG era. So it's all opinions at the at end of the day.....but hopefully you will understand my reasoning.....if not my conclusion! Anyways, respect your opinion dude. I can respect someone preferring the Lester Cut over the Donner cut because the Donner cut isn’t a finished film. What I can’t respect is someone believing that the Lester cut is superior to the SII that Donner would have finished. So because of this, I’m going to have to pound you into the moon. Dejan hoists himself up from the hole on the moon that Crown thumped him into........finds the Lester Flag and places it in upright position! |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 3, 2023 21:11:02 GMT -5
I can respect someone preferring the Lester Cut over the Donner cut because the Donner cut isn’t a finished film. What I can’t respect is someone believing that the Lester cut is superior to the SII that Donner would have finished. So because of this, I’m going to have to pound you into the moon. Dejan hoists himself up from the hole on the moon that Crown thumped him into........finds the Lester Flag and places it in upright position! Dejan: Roar! Where is the woman!? Crown: Give it up you’ll never… wait are you talking about Rat Lois? If that’s the case she over there you can have her. Dejan to Rat Lois: Come I want you by my side! Rat Lois: Seriously? Don’t you want pretty Donner Lois lit by Geoff Unsworth? Dejan: No! I like my rat Lois! Now I’m gonna fly you into outer space! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 5, 2023 6:55:34 GMT -5
Dejan hoists himself up from the hole on the moon that Crown thumped him into........finds the Lester Flag and places it in upright position! Dejan: Roar! Where is the woman!? Crown: Give it up you’ll never… wait are you talking about Rat Lois? If that’s the case she over there you can have her. Dejan to Rat Lois: Come I want you by my side! Rat Lois: Seriously? Don’t you want pretty Donner Lois lit by Geoff Unsworth? Dejan: No! I like my rat Lois! Now I’m gonna fly you into outer space! lol! To be fair, if you go to SupermanII.com: www.supermanii.com/articles/There is an article from October 9th 1979(Superman II On Launch Pad). In it Reeve says:
So even if Donner had come back to finish in the fall of 1979, he still would have faced(no pun intended!) the same problem with how Kidder looked.Could he have done a better job than Lester.....that's an unknown because Unsworth(who Kidder adored) had already passed away. For the record, Unsworth worked with Lester on Royal Flash in 1975....and did a great job lighting Britt Ekland. I can only speak for meself......but I never noticed those differences regarding how Kidder looked, on my first couple of viewings in the cinema of SII, in 1981 and 1982.(Mind you I was only 7 years of age!). It was only when I finally got my own copy on home video in 1983.....and after repeated viewings , that I began to notice those discrepancies in her appearance from shot to shot. Also worth mentioning that back then in the early 80s,we were all rockin' either VHS,BetaMax or V2000( a video system only ever sold in Europe by Phillips - which is what I had). The poor resoloution of those formats probably did not help in our endevours to elucidate differences that cropped up between scenes. Laserdisc owners may have fared better, due that format's slightly better playback performance. But even so.....all movies back then were cropped to 4:3 for home video viewing.....so for example, scenes in Superman II that featured differences in the fortress between Lester and Donner would have been a little harder to spot. Once the DVD revolution began in the late 90s/early 2000s, then it was game on for eagled eyed fans to acertain all the inconsistencies between the 2 director's work......and it could it be done in widescreen(16:9)!. Will have to peruse the reviews from 1981 to see if any of the critics noticed the incongruencies in Kidder's appearance. Of note though, is that a lot of critics agreed that her performance was better in SII, relative to STM. Still all opinions of course......but the aforementioned observations concur with my own personal views.....that her performance under Lester was more mature than under Donner. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 5, 2023 12:00:15 GMT -5
Dejan: Roar! Where is the woman!? Crown: Give it up you’ll never… wait are you talking about Rat Lois? If that’s the case she over there you can have her. Dejan to Rat Lois: Come I want you by my side! Rat Lois: Seriously? Don’t you want pretty Donner Lois lit by Geoff Unsworth? Dejan: No! I like my rat Lois! Now I’m gonna fly you into outer space! lol! To be fair, if you go to SupermanII.com: www.supermanii.com/articles/There is an article from October 9th 1979(Superman II On Launch Pad). In it Reeve says:
So even if Donner had come back to finish in the fall of 1979, he still would have faced(no pun intended!) the same problem with how Kidder looked.Could he have done a better job than Lester.....that's an unknown because Unsworth(who Kidder adored) had already passed away. For the record, Unsworth worked with Lester on Royal Flash in 1975....and did a great job lighting Britt Ekland. I can only speak for meself......but I never noticed those differences regarding how Kidder looked, on my first couple of viewings in the cinema of SII, in 1981 and 1982.(Mind you I was only 7 years of age!). It was only when I finally got my own copy on home video in 1983.....and after repeated viewings , that I began to notice those discrepancies in her appearance from shot to shot. Also worth mentioning that back then in the early 80s,we were all rockin' either VHS,BetaMax or V2000( a video system only ever sold in Europe by Phillips - which is what I had). The poor resoloution of those formats probably did not help in our endevours to elucidate differences that cropped up between scenes. Laserdisc owners may have fared better, due that format's slightly better playback performance. But even so.....all movies back then were cropped to 4:3 for home video viewing.....so for example, scenes in Superman II that featured differences in the fortress between Lester and Donner would have been a little harder to spot. Once the DVD revolution began in the late 90s/early 2000s, then it was game on for eagled eyed fans to acertain all the inconsistencies between the 2 director's work......and it could it be done in widescreen(16:9)!. Will have to peruse the reviews from 1981 to see if any of the critics noticed the incongruencies in Kidder's appearance. Of note though, is that a lot of critics agreed that her performance was better in SII, relative to STM. Still all opinions of course......but the aforementioned observations concur with my own personal views.....that her performance under Lester was more mature than under Donner. Donner was going to finish SII simultaneously with STM but Lester convinced him to stop shooting SII so we can blame Lester for that one. Plus you’re forgetting one crucial thing….. why would Superman give up his powers for Rat Lois? Superman would have only given up his powers for Donner Unsworth Lois. And I don’t buy for one moment that Kidder looked different because of “dental work”. That was just a euphemism for heavy drug use that wasted Kidder away until she was barely 80 pounds when filming recommenced on SII. Kidder was so frighteningly gaunt but Lester just threw a rat-wig on her and started filming. Donner would have made Kidder get off the drugs and eat! |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 5, 2023 16:25:45 GMT -5
lol! To be fair, if you go to SupermanII.com: www.supermanii.com/articles/There is an article from October 9th 1979(Superman II On Launch Pad). In it Reeve says:
So even if Donner had come back to finish in the fall of 1979, he still would have faced(no pun intended!) the same problem with how Kidder looked.Could he have done a better job than Lester.....that's an unknown because Unsworth(who Kidder adored) had already passed away. For the record, Unsworth worked with Lester on Royal Flash in 1975....and did a great job lighting Britt Ekland. I can only speak for meself......but I never noticed those differences regarding how Kidder looked, on my first couple of viewings in the cinema of SII, in 1981 and 1982.(Mind you I was only 7 years of age!). It was only when I finally got my own copy on home video in 1983.....and after repeated viewings , that I began to notice those discrepancies in her appearance from shot to shot. Also worth mentioning that back then in the early 80s,we were all rockin' either VHS,BetaMax or V2000( a video system only ever sold in Europe by Phillips - which is what I had). The poor resoloution of those formats probably did not help in our endevours to elucidate differences that cropped up between scenes. Laserdisc owners may have fared better, due that format's slightly better playback performance. But even so.....all movies back then were cropped to 4:3 for home video viewing.....so for example, scenes in Superman II that featured differences in the fortress between Lester and Donner would have been a little harder to spot. Once the DVD revolution began in the late 90s/early 2000s, then it was game on for eagled eyed fans to acertain all the inconsistencies between the 2 director's work......and it could it be done in widescreen(16:9)!. Will have to peruse the reviews from 1981 to see if any of the critics noticed the incongruencies in Kidder's appearance. Of note though, is that a lot of critics agreed that her performance was better in SII, relative to STM. Still all opinions of course......but the aforementioned observations concur with my own personal views.....that her performance under Lester was more mature than under Donner. Donner was going to finish SII simultaneously with STM but Lester convinced him to stop shooting SII so we can blame Lester for that one. Plus you’re forgetting one crucial thing….. why would Superman give up his powers for Rat Lois? Superman would have only given up his powers for Donner Unsworth Lois. And I don’t buy for one moment that Kidder looked different because of “dental work”. That was just a euphemism for heavy drug use that wasted Kidder away until she was barely 80 pounds when filming recommenced on SII. Kidder was so frighteningly gaunt but Lester just threw a rat-wig on her and started filming. Donner would have made Kidder get off the drugs and eat! That's true regarding Lester's decision to halt production on SII. According to Petrou, in his Making Of STM book, Donner enthusiastically agreed to the "moratorium" on SII. To be fair, Donner was way's behind on the production schedule of STM, thanks to time dedicated to SII during that original back to back shoot. Because of the ground breaking effects work involved, R&D was chewing up time and money on how to make Supes fly.....that everything else was being slowed down as result. It's unfortunate but that was the reality of the situation. As a hypothesis: Perhaps the only way to have got round it may have been to have delayed STM for a late 1979/summer of 1980 release.......thereby finishing both films(or at least pretty much 95% of SII minus a few unfinished effects). Those few unfinished effects for SII could then have been completed with calmness and serenity in just a few months in time for a release during the Christmas period of 1980. Dunno....but sounds like a reasonable plan from humble little Dejan's point of view! Problem would have been the money men.....eager to see a return on their investment as soon as possible. One has to remember that STM was originally scheduled for a summer 1978 release. Warners and co were already slightly pissed off that they missed that original summer date. Hence the eagerness to suspend SII and get on with finishing STM. As for Kidder: She had actually been dating Mank during the shoot for STM and SII. At some point in either late 78' or 79'......they split. Not sure whether it was amicable at the time or not.......but that could have been a potential hot potato.....if Donner and Mank had come back to finish SII in late 79'. Just imagine Donner directing Kidder during that original Honey Moon Hotel sequence as originally scripted by Mank: Donner: "Ok.....and action!" Kidder: "You are right Mank,I mean Clark, I mean Mank......I mean Clark ......I bet my life instead of yours......and don't fall down as you are just going to have get up again" Donner: "Cut!!!!" Kidder: "Look Di*k.....if you don't get that cheating 2 faced bas***d of a script writer off this set right now.....I'm gonna knock my own teeth out....right now!" Mank: "Margot...you rat!" Donner: "I wish we kept Superman II in a state of suspension!" |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 5, 2023 17:34:46 GMT -5
Donner was going to finish SII simultaneously with STM but Lester convinced him to stop shooting SII so we can blame Lester for that one. Plus you’re forgetting one crucial thing….. why would Superman give up his powers for Rat Lois? Superman would have only given up his powers for Donner Unsworth Lois. And I don’t buy for one moment that Kidder looked different because of “dental work”. That was just a euphemism for heavy drug use that wasted Kidder away until she was barely 80 pounds when filming recommenced on SII. Kidder was so frighteningly gaunt but Lester just threw a rat-wig on her and started filming. Donner would have made Kidder get off the drugs and eat! That's true regarding Lester's decision to halt production on SII. According to Petrou, in his Making Of STM book, Donner enthusiastically agreed to the "moratorium" on SII. To be fair, Donner was way's behind on the production schedule of STM, thanks to time dedicated to SII during that original back to back shoot. Because of the ground breaking effects work involved, R&D was chewing up time and money on how to make Supes fly.....that everything else was being slowed down as result. It's unfortunate but that was the reality of the situation. As a hypothesis: Perhaps the only way to have got round it may have been to have delayed STM for a late 1979/summer of 1980 release.......thereby finishing both films(or at least pretty much 95% of SII minus a few unfinished effects). Those few unfinished effects for SII could then have been completed with calmness and serenity in just a few months in time for a release during the Christmas period of 1980. Dunno....but sounds like a reasonable plan from humble little Dejan's point of view! Problem would have been the money men.....eager to see a return on their investment as soon as possible. One has to remember that STM was originally scheduled for a summer 1978 release. Warners and co were already slightly pissed off that they missed that original summer date. Hence the eagerness to suspend SII and get on with finishing STM. As for Kidder: She had actually been dating Mank during the shoot for STM and SII. At some point in either late 78' or 79'......they split. Not sure whether it was amicable at the time or not.......but that could have been a potential hot potato.....if Donner and Mank had come back to finish SII in late 79'. Just imagine Donner directing Kidder during that original Honey Moon Hotel sequence as originally scripted by Mank: Donner: "Ok.....and action!" Kidder: "You are right Mank,I mean Clark, I mean Mank......I mean Clark ......I bet my life instead of yours......and don't fall down as you are just going to have get up again" Donner: "Cut!!!!" Kidder: "Look Di*k.....if you don't get that cheating 2 faced bas***d of a script writer off this set right now.....I'm gonna knock my own teeth out....right now!" Mank: "Margot...you rat!" Donner: "I wish we kept Superman II in a state of suspension!" So Kidder was dating both Donner and Mank during STM and SII and dated Richard Prior in S3! Begs the question did she and Mark Pillow ever….. Anyway point still stands that Lester was in the position to tell Kidder to get off the crack cocaine that had turned her into a skeleton and had her eat steak and ice cream until she filled out again. Lester choose not to do this and instead said “Yeah Kidder is a skeleton but hey I got this here wig made from a rat carcass I’ll just throw that on Kidders skull and she’ll be fine!” Meanwhile we the audience were forced to accept that Superman would give up his powers for Rat Lois. And that my friend is where the Lester Cut falls apart. Just look at the close up of Kidder when she said she’s going to change into something more comfortable… I can see her sunken eye sockets! Supes should have offered her the whole soufflé. Also don't you think it's a bit coincidental that it was Lester who had the idea to stop shooting SII and HE was the one to ultimately take over? |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 6, 2023 16:25:29 GMT -5
That's true regarding Lester's decision to halt production on SII. According to Petrou, in his Making Of STM book, Donner enthusiastically agreed to the "moratorium" on SII. To be fair, Donner was way's behind on the production schedule of STM, thanks to time dedicated to SII during that original back to back shoot. Because of the ground breaking effects work involved, R&D was chewing up time and money on how to make Supes fly.....that everything else was being slowed down as result. It's unfortunate but that was the reality of the situation. As a hypothesis: Perhaps the only way to have got round it may have been to have delayed STM for a late 1979/summer of 1980 release.......thereby finishing both films(or at least pretty much 95% of SII minus a few unfinished effects). Those few unfinished effects for SII could then have been completed with calmness and serenity in just a few months in time for a release during the Christmas period of 1980. Dunno....but sounds like a reasonable plan from humble little Dejan's point of view! Problem would have been the money men.....eager to see a return on their investment as soon as possible. One has to remember that STM was originally scheduled for a summer 1978 release. Warners and co were already slightly pissed off that they missed that original summer date. Hence the eagerness to suspend SII and get on with finishing STM. As for Kidder: She had actually been dating Mank during the shoot for STM and SII. At some point in either late 78' or 79'......they split. Not sure whether it was amicable at the time or not.......but that could have been a potential hot potato.....if Donner and Mank had come back to finish SII in late 79'. Just imagine Donner directing Kidder during that original Honey Moon Hotel sequence as originally scripted by Mank: Donner: "Ok.....and action!" Kidder: "You are right Mank,I mean Clark, I mean Mank......I mean Clark ......I bet my life instead of yours......and don't fall down as you are just going to have get up again" Donner: "Cut!!!!" Kidder: "Look Di*k.....if you don't get that cheating 2 faced bas***d of a script writer off this set right now.....I'm gonna knock my own teeth out....right now!" Mank: "Margot...you rat!" Donner: "I wish we kept Superman II in a state of suspension!" So Kidder was dating both Donner and Mank during STM and SII and dated Richard Prior in S3! Begs the question did she and Mark Pillow ever….. Anyway point still stands that Lester was in the position to tell Kidder to get off the crack cocaine that had turned her into a skeleton and had her eat steak and ice cream until she filled out again. Lester choose not to do this and instead said “Yeah Kidder is a skeleton but hey I got this here wig made from a rat carcass I’ll just throw that on Kidders skull and she’ll be fine!” Meanwhile we the audience were forced to accept that Superman would give up his powers for Rat Lois. And that my friend is where the Lester Cut falls apart. Just look at the close up of Kidder when she said she’s going to change into something more comfortable… I can see her sunken eye sockets! Supes should have offered her the whole soufflé. Also don't you think it's a bit coincidental that it was Lester who had the idea to stop shooting SII and HE was the one to ultimately take over? Totally agreed that the move by Lester and the Salkinds was premeditated with regards to taking over SII. Had Donner shot anymore of SII than he already had.......say for example, the Niagra Falls and Villains taking over the world stuff.......it would not have been cost effective to then ditch Donner, and reshoot all that material again, with a new director. So they stopped Donner in his tracks at just the right moment(from their perspective). They knew what they were doing......and it's a shame Donner did not pick up on that. Also, Lester already had experience in taking over another director's project at the 11th hour......and passing it off as his own, with Juggernaught in 1974. The Salkinds would have been aware of this , hence their reason to bring Lester in on the fold, during STM's production run. However, I'm not sure how Donner was not aware, that by inhibiting him from finishing SII at the precise instance that they did, that he was being set up for an eventual sacking. Maybe he thought that if he could make STM a success, which he did, that they would not have the guts to go through and fire him when it came to completing the already half finished SII. But he may have miscalculated on that one. Dunno....there are still some mysterious goings on with that whole charade. As for Kidder's look in 1981. Check out this movie called Heartaches with Annie Potts, from Ghostbusters fame, and Margot....released in July 81'. My guess is that Margot filmed scenes for this after her stint on finishing SII. If you thought her wig was rat like in SII......then a get a load of this: on edit: Just checked Wiki....and it looks like Heartaches was filmed in the fall of 1980.....a few months after production on SII wrapped. It's a fun film by the way......looks like these were the kinds of movies Margot liked making, small indie type flicks. |
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Post by Kamdan on Jul 8, 2023 6:33:34 GMT -5
Has anyone ever viewed both films in terms of spotting the differences with Margot’s teeth? The only time I can recall them being noticeable was in the scene after Superman destroys the Fortress. The biggest difference was whoever thought it was a good idea to put her in the hideous big wig she wore during the Daily Planet and final Fortress Lester scenes of II. Her hair was pretty consistent to what Donner shot throughout the majority of Lester’s footage, so what gives?
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 8, 2023 8:21:24 GMT -5
Has anyone ever viewed both films in terms of spotting the differences with Margot’s teeth? The only time I can recall them being noticeable was in the scene after Superman destroys the Fortress. The biggest difference was whoever thought it was a good idea to put her in the hideous big wig she wore during the Daily Planet and final Fortress Lester scenes of II. Her hair was pretty consistent to what Donner shot throughout the majority of Lester’s footage, so what gives? I just realized that if you look at the deleted "Lex getting arrested " sequence: goto 0:19 and look at Kidder's hair. It's much longer than how it looks at any point throughout either Donner's STM or SII footage! But most tellingly, it looks almost identical to how her hair looked at the Daily Planet in Lester's reshot sequences.....particularly when she reminisces(after Olsen's retort "she knows his play better than anybody"): "Yeah....better than anybody". So , it's quite ironic that Lester used what would eventually become a deleted Donner scene(within the context of the theatrical SII) , where Kidder's hair was inconsistent (within Donner's own stuff) as a template for how Margot should look throughout his own "newer" material! |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 9, 2023 23:50:57 GMT -5
Yeah it’s true that there was a single shot that Lester did for SII where Lois isn’t wearing the rat wig. It’s when she’s smoking next to Australia on the globe. This is the sequence where Lester spliced in (unnecessarily) a lot of new footage into an otherwise completed Donner scene so he knew the rat wig wouldn't match switching back and forth. Maybe Lester should have used that wig for all the reshoots…. who knows maybe a rat died on set and PETA forced Lester to use the carcasses in the movie. Anyway here’s proof that Donners SII is superior: Watch all of Donners completed Superman II footage and then watch all the footage Lester shot for SII. Which 3/4 completed film is better?
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 10, 2023 7:29:00 GMT -5
Yeah it’s true that there was a single shot that Lester did for SII where Lois isn’t wearing the rat wig. It’s when she’s smoking next to Australia on the globe. This is the sequence where Lester spliced in (unnecessarily) a lot of new footage into an otherwise completed Donner scene so he knew the rat wig wouldn't match switching back and forth. Maybe Lester should have used that wig for all the reshoots…. who knows maybe a rat died on set and PETA forced Lester to use the carcasses in the movie. Anyway here’s proof that Donners SII is superior: Watch all of Donners completed Superman II footage and then watch all the footage Lester shot for SII. Which 3/4 completed film is better? Lesters! By far. The real question is what would have happened if Lester had reshot absolutely everything(diner ,white house,moon, extra fortress stuff). How would that have impacted the overall product?! |
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atp
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Post by atp on Jul 10, 2023 9:06:13 GMT -5
Yeah it’s true that there was a single shot that Lester did for SII where Lois isn’t wearing the rat wig. It’s when she’s smoking next to Australia on the globe. This is the sequence where Lester spliced in (unnecessarily) a lot of new footage into an otherwise completed Donner scene so he knew the rat wig wouldn't match switching back and forth. Maybe Lester should have used that wig for all the reshoots…. who knows maybe a rat died on set and PETA forced Lester to use the carcasses in the movie. Anyway here’s proof that Donners SII is superior: Watch all of Donners completed Superman II footage and then watch all the footage Lester shot for SII. Which 3/4 completed film is better? Lesters! By far. The real question is what would have happened if Lester had reshot absolutely everything(diner ,white house,moon, extra fortress stuff). How would that have impacted the overall product?! It would have been more polished and consistent, but wouldn't have been as good. At best, it could have been like the junkyard in Superman 3. The diner scene is absolutely perfect as it is. That would be impossible to improve upon. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 10, 2023 9:56:28 GMT -5
Lesters! By far. The real question is what would have happened if Lester had reshot absolutely everything(diner ,white house,moon, extra fortress stuff). How would that have impacted the overall product?! It would have been more polished and consistent, but wouldn't have been as good. At best, it could have been like the junkyard in Superman 3. The diner scene is absolutely perfect as it is. That would be impossible to improve upon. Agreed that the diner scene is pitch perfect and I would not want to tamper with it either. Having said that, if Lester was hypothetically asked to reshoot that sequence beat for beat, without any alterations to the script....I think he could have come close and maybe even better. Lester came into SII ,straight off shooting 2 movies back to back(Butch& The Sundance:Early Years and Cuba). Both met with mixed reviews at the time. But those reviews that were positive.....were very positive. Indeed, Tarantino no less, is one of those fans. And without wishing to come across as a Lester apologist....I happen to like both those movies a lot(have em' on Blu Ray and have gone over them with a fine tooth comb). Both contain violence, tension and action.....and in the case of Cuba it's pretty raw and real(and it's intended to be). Seeing as we are refering to action sequences for the Donner shot material in SII(moon,White House,prison escape ect ect).....and assuming that Lester would be forced to reshoot those scenes exactly as they had already been shot.....I think he could have pulled it off and then some. And in some ways I wish he had....so the controversy over who shot what and when and which is better would not have been an issue.........for better or worse. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 10, 2023 13:44:43 GMT -5
Lesters! By far. The real question is what would have happened if Lester had reshot absolutely everything(diner ,white house,moon, extra fortress stuff). How would that have impacted the overall product?! It would have been more polished and consistent, but wouldn't have been as good. At best, it could have been like the junkyard in Superman 3. The diner scene is absolutely perfect as it is. That would be impossible to improve upon. If Lester had shot the diner scene Rocky would have dragged Clark to the restroom and continued the beating and worse. Morgan Freeman would narrate “I wish I could tell you that Clark fought the good fight. That Rocky let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But this is no fairy tale.” |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 17, 2023 15:05:06 GMT -5
It would have been more polished and consistent, but wouldn't have been as good. At best, it could have been like the junkyard in Superman 3. The diner scene is absolutely perfect as it is. That would be impossible to improve upon. If Lester had shot the diner scene Rocky would have dragged Clark to the restroom and continued the beating and worse. Morgan Freeman would narrate “I wish I could tell you that Clark fought the good fight. That Rocky let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But this is no fairy tale.” If Lester had shot the diner scene: Rocky: "What's the matter 4 eyes?.....garbage too warm for ya...ha?......you been gettin' on my nerves a long time(er...since you walked into the diner...like 4 minutes ago!)..... whack!  |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 19, 2023 23:58:08 GMT -5
If Lester had shot the diner scene Rocky would have dragged Clark to the restroom and continued the beating and worse. Morgan Freeman would narrate “I wish I could tell you that Clark fought the good fight. That Rocky let him be. I wish I could tell you that. But this is no fairy tale.” If Lester had shot the diner scene: Rocky: "What's the matter 4 eyes?.....garbage too warm for ya...ha?......you been gettin' on my nerves a long time(er...since you walked into the diner...like 4 minutes ago!)..... whack! That "garbage" that Rocky was eating actually looked good. It was Annie's number one special too. Ever tried eating at a diner and after scarfing down a plate asked for more "garbage"? |
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