crown
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Post by crown on Jun 23, 2023 2:48:53 GMT -5
He paid Lois a compliment by calling her a sweetheart. Then he offered to buy her something to eat. Clark had no right to that seat because he never even sat there before going to the bathroom. Clark made things get physical by asking to step outside. Rocky was justified in hitting him from behind because Clark was bigger than him and he feared for his safety. Also when Clark got his revenge he savagely beat up at truly defenseless Rocky by breaking his hand soiling his pants and viciously throwing him into a pinball machine which likely broke his back. And Clark thought it was okay to trash the place just because he gave Ron some money? Those might have been $1 bills and also the money doesn’t cover the time and effort in actually fixing the place. Thoughts?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 24, 2023 8:31:42 GMT -5
Mixed on the ‘Superman’s revenge’ scene myself.
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 25, 2023 6:46:51 GMT -5
Rocky was pretty low in punching Clark in the back of the head. The “Mr. Wonderful” comment established that Rocky’s known for this kind of behavior so he gets what he had coming to him when Clark comes back fully powered. At least Clark’s handling of the situation wasn’t as disturbing as in Man of Steel where he unnecessarily turned the bullying trucker’s truck into satanic art with his load of lumber. Caused more damage than a mess and a broken pinball machine.
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 15:10:26 GMT -5
Rocky was pretty low in punching Clark in the back of the head. The “Mr. Wonderful” comment established that Rocky’s known for this kind of behavior so he gets what he had coming to him when Clark comes back fully powered. At least Clark’s handling of the situation wasn’t as disturbing as in Man of Steel where he unnecessarily turned the bullying trucker’s truck into satanic art with his load of lumber. Caused more damage than a mess and a broken pinball machine. If a 6'4 225 pound man asked you to "step outside" what would you do? Knowing I'd have no chance mano-a-mano I would just hit him from behind to hopefully neutralize the threat and get on with my meal. |
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 25, 2023 17:48:28 GMT -5
I’d get my ass outta the seat and respect the fact that the guy wants to sit next the woman he came in with. Didn’t see Rocky offering anything for compensation for the damage he caused.
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 19:01:27 GMT -5
I’d get my booty outta the seat and respect the fact that the guy wants to sit next the woman he came in with. Didn’t see Rocky offering anything for compensation for the damage he caused. Lois and Clark could have sat somewhere else. Also why should Rocky respect that they came in together? Clark and Lois weren't married so Lois was fair game for Rocky's advances. What if Lois realized that she wanted Rocky to be her man instead of Clark? Clark was being possessive and trying to own Lois which is why he got violent with Rocky. |
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Post by Kamdan on Jun 25, 2023 20:39:04 GMT -5
Lois was trying to get Clark to sit elsewhere but his foolish pride got handed to him in the form of that beating. That sense of ignorance is present with the character, like when he saw no repercussions in stating in an interview that he couldn’t see through lead. It’s honestly a good way to make a flawless hero vulnerable. It can come off as petty how he gets revenge at the end, but Pepper Martin did a good job at making Rocky a sketchy guy right from the start and he gets what he deserves when he tries to hit Clark again just for calling him “garbage.” Rocky also wasn’t very kind making fun of Clark’s glasses.
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 20:53:35 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat:
"There's another, sweetheart".
Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else.
Sorted.
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 21:42:25 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat: "There's another, sweetheart". Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else. Sorted. Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 25, 2023 22:47:29 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat: "There's another, sweetheart". Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else. Sorted. Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! I suspect Lester was suggesting this, but got overridden by Reeve. (Kidding, kidding!) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 22:53:18 GMT -5
Rocly did offer a solution in the first place , to Lois's assertion about the seat: "There's another, sweetheart". Lois and Clark then proceed to sit somewhere else. Sorted. Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! But very true. Let's be honest, judging by the quality of the food in that diner("another plate of that garbage") ,assuming Lois and Clark had eaten their meal as originally intended, they would have probably ended up in that toilet anyways. Rocky was trying to make it easier for them. True gentleman that he was. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 25, 2023 22:57:04 GMT -5
Lois was trying to get Clark to sit elsewhere but his foolish pride got handed to him in the form of that beating. That sense of ignorance is present with the character, like when he saw no repercussions in stating in an interview that he couldn’t see through lead. It’s honestly a good way to make a flawless hero vulnerable. It can come off as petty how he gets revenge at the end, but Pepper Martin did a good job at making Rocky a sketchy guy right from the start and he gets what he deserves when he tries to hit Clark again just for calling him “garbage.” Rocky also wasn’t very kind making fun of Clark’s glasses. To me, the 'lighter' revenge scene would have been more welcome, had it followed (as scripted) the darker Metro battle section for relief. I'd read that originally it was a couple of guys that beat up Clark, but I wonder how one comes back from that level of darkness if done that 'real'. I'm sure that Donner had gone back and forth on how dark to make this scene. The bits of performance with Kidder and Reeve during the humiliation - plus Donner's inserts of the diner customer's reactions.... are gold. I did feel initially that the diner revenge scene, though, undermined the earlier scene... even if directed by Donner. But- if things had gone as planned, with the beats of darkness with the original Metro battle and the tragedy of the impossible romance put out there- then it would have been a nice way to bring it back to a lighter energy.... without going TOO light. |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 25, 2023 23:05:13 GMT -5
Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! I suspect Lester was suggesting this, but got overridden by Reeve. (Kidding, kidding!) Last time I checked, wasn't it Donner who had poor ol' Danny Glover strapped to a toilet in LW2! Also , what is it with Donner and toilet humor in general.....Tesmacher's remarks in the fortress.....Fogelstein's bedwetting antics, Otis missing his opportunity for a piss and Richard Prior sitting on a fart balloon in The Toy. Lester could have learnt a lot about toilet humor from Donner! On edit: Lester did have ol' Doc Brown himself, Chris Lloyd, piss himself ,in a water tank , in Butch & The Sundance Kid! |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 25, 2023 23:11:58 GMT -5
Lois was trying to get Clark to sit elsewhere but his foolish pride got handed to him in the form of that beating. That sense of ignorance is present with the character, like when he saw no repercussions in stating in an interview that he couldn’t see through lead. It’s honestly a good way to make a flawless hero vulnerable. It can come off as petty how he gets revenge at the end, but Pepper Martin did a good job at making Rocky a sketchy guy right from the start and he gets what he deserves when he tries to hit Clark again just for calling him “garbage.” Rocky also wasn’t very kind making fun of Clark’s glasses. To me, the 'lighter' revenge scene would have been more welcome, had it followed (as scripted) the darker Metro battle section for relief. I'd read that originally it was a couple of guys that beat up Clark, but I wonder how one comes back from that level of darkness if done that 'real'. I'm sure that Donner had gone back and forth on how dark to make this scene. The bits of performance with Kidder and Reeve during the humiliation - plus Donner's inserts of the diner customer's reactions.... are gold. I did feel initially that the diner revenge scene, though, undermined the earlier scene... even if directed by Donner. But- if things had gone as planned, with the beats of darkness with the original Metro battle and the tragedy of the impossible romance put out there- then it would have been a nice way to bring it back to a lighter energy.... without going TOO light. I did notice as a kid that Lois looked prettier in the diner scene than she did in the rest of the movie. It’s really the only intact Donner scene between Lois and Clark. In the original script the Newman’s wrote Clark doesn’t even get beat up Lois knocks out the bully with a Coke bottle before he has a chance to even hit Clark. That’s probably how Lester would have refilmed it. I don’t know how much darker the scene could be made but that the ending of the scene as scripted Clark walks out of the diner and starts to urinate in the alley outside. A kid walks by and witnesses a broken bloodied Superman pissing in an alley and his dreams are shattered. Not sure if the scene was actually filmed though. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 26, 2023 0:08:14 GMT -5
lol! I suspect Lester was suggesting this, but got overridden by Reeve. (Kidding, kidding!) Last time I checked, wasn't it Donner who had poor ol' Danny Glover strapped to a toilet in LW2! Also , what is it with Donner and toilet humor in general.....Tesmacher's remarks in the fortress.....Fogelstein's bedwetting antics, Otis missing his opportunity for a piss and Richard Prior sitting on a fart balloon in The Toy. Lester could have learnt a lot about toilet humor from Donner! On edit: Lester did have ol' Doc Brown himself, Chris Lloyd, piss himself ,in a water tank , in Butch & The Sundance Kid! True on Donner toilet humor! But..... I never objected to the Lester humor per se, (Three Musketeers is great, SII not so much) but the horrific timing and overriding original material that was already better/set in motion.  |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jun 26, 2023 3:11:18 GMT -5
Exactly. Rocky told Clark that his seat was the toilet in the restroom. Clark and Lois could have eaten their meal in there. lol! But very true. Let's be honest, judging by the quality of the food in that diner("another plate of that garbage") ,assuming Lois and Clark had eaten their meal as originally intended, they would have probably ended up in that toilet anyways. Rocky was trying to make it easier for them. True gentleman that he was. Yeah Clark and Lois could have had their meal served to them in the bathroom. They could have kneeled in the stall and eaten their food off the toilet seat. Ron really cared about his joint and I’m sure the toilets were kept immaculately clean. The only problem could be if Rocky himself tried to use the bathroom then the tables would be turned. Clark would say “Look Rocky we gave up our seat at the counter but this here is OUR seat. If you need to take a dump take it outside!” |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 26, 2023 10:14:09 GMT -5
Last time I checked, wasn't it Donner who had poor ol' Danny Glover strapped to a toilet in LW2! Also , what is it with Donner and toilet humor in general.....Tesmacher's remarks in the fortress.....Fogelstein's bedwetting antics, Otis missing his opportunity for a piss and Richard Prior sitting on a fart balloon in The Toy. Lester could have learnt a lot about toilet humor from Donner! On edit: Lester did have ol' Doc Brown himself, Chris Lloyd, piss himself ,in a water tank , in Butch & The Sundance Kid! True on Donner toilet humor! But..... I never objected to the Lester humor per se, (Three Musketeers is great, SII not so much) but the horrific timing and overriding original material that was already better/set in motion. It's all opinions ofcourse,but I prefer SII to the 3 and 4 Muskys. But it is very interesting that Lester excised all the toilet humor from those Donner segments. Having gone through most of Lester's work.....that Chris Lloyd pissing himself scene in Butch & Sundance is the one toilet humor type joke in all his films. There is a very quick scene in The 3 Muskys where a cleaning lady pours a pile of s**t out of a window on some unsuspecting fella below.....so that's another one. As for Sydney J Furie's interpretation of toilet humor......well, SIV was s**t! |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 26, 2023 11:10:07 GMT -5
True on Donner toilet humor! But..... I never objected to the Lester humor per se, (Three Musketeers is great, SII not so much) but the horrific timing and overriding original material that was already better/set in motion. It's all opinions ofcourse,but I prefer SII to the 3 and 4 Muskys. But it is very interesting that Lester excised all the toilet humor from those Donner segments. Having gone through most of Lester's work.....that Chris Lloyd pissing himself scene in Butch & Sundance is the one toilet humor type joke in all his films. There is a very quick scene in The 3 Muskys where a cleaning lady pours a pile of s**t out of a window on some unsuspecting fella below.....so that's another one. As for Sydney J Furie's interpretation of toilet humor......well, SIV was s**t! Eh.... In an ideal world, SIV would have had the budget originally afforded it- but even as is, it has a LOT more going for it than the fully-budgeted Lester SIII. But, we each have our preferences, as you mentioned- (and I agree)  On another note- you didn't care for Three Musketeers? (Or not as much as Four?)- Can you elaborate? I thought Three was fantastic- Lester's redeeming feature, and parts of Four were great- but the flow wasn't smooth storywise as Three- with humor at mistimed spots that stopped the story in its tracks (much like how I didn't like his approach in SII during the Metro battle). I do wonder- was the editor to blame for SII for not standing up to Lester and excising the worst parts for SII? I find even fans who adore Lester's work, don't really point to the Metro battle gags as the best part of SII. Donner's toilet jokes may have appeared with the Lex and Otis parts, but I didn't see a trace of humor during the Metro battle. And the humor with the villains/Lex came from the contrast primarily of both playing their parts 'straight'- and not a wink, like Lester's rewrites did. (Non being more childlike rather than a beast, Zod as less scary but more constantly annoyed- rolling his eyes, etc.) |
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jun 26, 2023 17:07:59 GMT -5
It's all opinions ofcourse,but I prefer SII to the 3 and 4 Muskys. But it is very interesting that Lester excised all the toilet humor from those Donner segments. Having gone through most of Lester's work.....that Chris Lloyd pissing himself scene in Butch & Sundance is the one toilet humor type joke in all his films. There is a very quick scene in The 3 Muskys where a cleaning lady pours a pile of s**t out of a window on some unsuspecting fella below.....so that's another one. As for Sydney J Furie's interpretation of toilet humor......well, SIV was s**t! Eh.... In an ideal world, SIV would have had the budget originally afforded it- but even as is, it has a LOT more going for it than the fully-budgeted Lester SIII. But, we each have our preferences, as you mentioned- (and I agree) On another note- you didn't care for Three Musketeers? (Or not as much as Four?)- Can you elaborate? I thought Three was fantastic- Lester's redeeming feature, and parts of Four were great- but the flow wasn't smooth storywise as Three- with humor at mistimed spots that stopped the story in its tracks (much like how I didn't like his approach in SII during the Metro battle). I do wonder- was the editor to blame for SII for not standing up to Lester and excising the worst parts for SII? I find even fans who adore Lester's work, don't really point to the Metro battle gags as the best part of SII. Donner's toilet jokes may have appeared with the Lex and Otis parts, but I didn't see a trace of humor during the Metro battle. And the humor with the villains/Lex came from the contrast primarily of both playing their parts 'straight'- and not a wink, like Lester's rewrites did. (Non being more childlike rather than a beast, Zod as less scary but more constantly annoyed- rolling his eyes, etc.) This is probably something that belongs in the Non Supes Lester/Donner films thread but i would put the 3 & 4 Muskys much lower down in Lester's overall repertoire behind Petulia, The Knack, On The Way To The Forum, The Bed Sitting Room and How I Won The War ....but above The Beatles flicks........ But I too, love the Muskys with 4 being above 3.....some absolutely epic stuff(especially and deliberately in 4)....and quite a cinematic acheivement considering both were filmed at the same time in the non CG era. Strip out the CG from The Matrix 2&3 or the original Lord Of The Rings trilogy.....and they won't look pretty! Also, the Muskys represented Lester's first time foray into mainsteam commercial cinema.......most avant guard, "art house" cinema directors of the 50s and 60s stayed away from the temptations of Hollywood.....and deliberately so.....but Lester was ultimately American(unlike Truffeaut,Goddard,Fellini and the rest)....so that may have had something to do with the pull/attraction to make something that could have a "mass consumer" appeal , especially in the U.S. From the American perpsective,think of the likes of Terrence Mallick(who's 1978 masterpiece- Days Of Heaven - unfortunately got buried by the commercial power of STM) or David Lynch and to some extent Scorsese himself.....and you have some idea of the kind of crowd that Lester was a part of. Oblique,ambigouse,challenging the form of the cinematic medium itself, non linear narratives and opaque subject matters were the common denominators of all the aformentioned directors....even if they all still had their own distinct styles. Hal Ashby,Friedkin,Cimino and Kubrick are 4 others who were either a part of that group or heavily influenced by it. As I said before,young George Lucas was also cut from that same cinematic cloth.....the result being THX 1138....IMHO - it's a very rich film if you dig below the surface. But as I said, will attempt to go further in the other thread. With regards to the humor in the Metro battle...the ice cream and rollerskate stuff was improvised in(for better or worse).....they were not part of the original script as revised by Lester's team. I can only say that on the theatrical viewings I had in 1981 and 1982, the audience sucked it up. Anyways,outside of Empire from the year before, what else was there, in 1981, to compete with the Metro climax of SII? The fight in the Greek chateaux in For Your Eyes Only(uhg!)? The fight with Ray Harryhousen's stop motion Kraken in Clash Of The Titans? Even the stuff with the Nazis getting their faces melted off in the climax of Raiders, was fantastic because of the horror , as opposed to the scale(it was a actually a pretty small scale finale all told). There was the Picadilly Circus riot in the final part of American Warewolf In London(that was actually shot on location).But still does not compare to the scale of SII's climax. I could go on.....the fighting in the mist in Excalibur....or the climactic race in Chariots Of Fire? How about the car chase over the bridge in Escape From New York? hey....I love all those films.....but SII was simply on another level,from a technical and acting perspective(actually the acting in Chariots Of Fire is pretty darn good!). So when you look at it from a "whole-listic" vantage point, SII's novel climax, even with all those eccentricities(ice cream ect), still resonated with audiences, by virtue of the fact that it had never been seen before. On Edit: Lester was on the set of Reds(shot at the same time as Supe II) - says he watched Diane Keaton perform multiple takes of simply throwing a paper into a waste basket......lamenting time and money lost for Warren Beatty.......Lester says he wanted more spontaneity from his actors on SII. |
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 26, 2023 17:55:38 GMT -5
Eh.... In an ideal world, SIV would have had the budget originally afforded it- but even as is, it has a LOT more going for it than the fully-budgeted Lester SIII. But, we each have our preferences, as you mentioned- (and I agree) On another note- you didn't care for Three Musketeers? (Or not as much as Four?)- Can you elaborate? I thought Three was fantastic- Lester's redeeming feature, and parts of Four were great- but the flow wasn't smooth storywise as Three- with humor at mistimed spots that stopped the story in its tracks (much like how I didn't like his approach in SII during the Metro battle). I do wonder- was the editor to blame for SII for not standing up to Lester and excising the worst parts for SII? I find even fans who adore Lester's work, don't really point to the Metro battle gags as the best part of SII. Donner's toilet jokes may have appeared with the Lex and Otis parts, but I didn't see a trace of humor during the Metro battle. And the humor with the villains/Lex came from the contrast primarily of both playing their parts 'straight'- and not a wink, like Lester's rewrites did. (Non being more childlike rather than a beast, Zod as less scary but more constantly annoyed- rolling his eyes, etc.) This is probably something that belongs in the Non Supes Lester/Donner films thread but i would put the 3 & 4 Muskys much lower down in Lester's overall repertoire behind Petulia, The Knack, On The Way To The Forum, The Bed Sitting Room and How I Won The War ....but above The Beatles flicks........ But I too, love the Muskys with 4 being above 3.....some absolutely epic stuff(especially and deliberately in 4)....and quite a cinematic acheivement considering both were filmed at the same time in the non CG era. Strip out the CG from The Matrix 2&3 or the original Lord Of The Rings trilogy.....and they won't look pretty! Also, the Muskys represented Lester's first time foray into mainsteam commercial cinema.......most avant guard, "art house" cinema directors of the 50s and 60s stayed away from the temptations of Hollywood.....and deliberately so.....but Lester was ultimately American(unlike Truffeaut,Goddard,Fellini and the rest)....so that may have had something to do with the pull/attraction to make something that could have a "mass consumer" appeal , especially in the U.S. From the American perpsective,think of the likes of Terrence Mallick(who's 1978 masterpiece- Days Of Heaven - unfortunately got buried by the commercial power of STM) or David Lynch and to some extent Scorsese himself.....and you have some idea of the kind of crowd that Lester was a part of. Oblique,ambigouse,challenging the form of the cinematic medium itself, non linear narratives and opaque subject matters were the common denominators of all the aformentioned directors....even if they all still had their own distinct styles. Hal Ashby,Friedkin,Cimino and Kubrick are 4 others who were either a part of that group or heavily influenced by it. As I said before,young George Lucas was also cut from that same cinematic cloth.....the result being THX 1138....IMHO - it's a very rich film if you dig below the surface. But as I said, will attempt to go further in the other thread. With regards to the humor in the Metro battle...the ice cream and rollerskate stuff was improvised in(for better or worse).....they were not part of the original script as revised by Lester's team. I can only say that on the theatrical viewings I had in 1981 and 1982, the audience sucked it up. Anyways,outside of Empire from the year before, what else was there, in 1981, to compete with the Metro climax of SII? The fight in the Greek chateaux in For Your Eyes Only(uhg!)? The fight with Ray Harryhousen's stop motion Kraken in Clash Of The Titans? Even the stuff with the Nazis getting their faces melted off in the climax of Raiders, was fantastic because of the horror , as opposed to the scale(it was a actually a pretty small scale finale all told). There was the Picadilly Circus riot in the final part of American Warewolf In London(that was actually shot on location).But still does not compare to the scale of SII's climax. I could go on.....the fighting in the mist in Excalibur....or the climactic race in Chariots Of Fire? How about the car chase over the bridge in Escape From New York? hey....I love all those films.....but SII was simply on another level,from a technical and acting perspective(actually the acting in Chariots Of Fire is pretty darn good!). So when you look at it from a "whole-listic" vantage point, SII's novel climax, even with all those eccentricities(ice cream ect), still resonated with audiences, by virtue of the fact that it had never been seen before. On Edit: Lester was on the set of Reds(shot at the same time as Supe II) - says he watched Diane Keaton perform multiple takes of simply throwing a paper into a waste basket......lamenting time and money lost for Warren Beatty.......Lester says he wanted more spontaneity from his actors on SII. There's no question that different countries can respond differently to material. I can only comment on the small sampling I had working at the bay area big screen theatre that had two big screens for SII that summer (that particular theatre had a set of demographics apparently that got heavyweights like Speilberg and Ford to appear at preview screenings to my suprise). NOBODY laughed during those Lester bits of 'comedy' when the villains started blowing things down. Three screenings a day, I worked in the center area (the snack bar, that was central to one super-large screen with no doors at the time, and two smaller ones with doors)- so I was privvy to the cheers and silence for many of the screenings we had. It's not every theatre in the country nor the planet.... but- even if the planet loved it- I DESPISED it. It wasn't in the revised script, but Lester's improvisation/insistence to shoot/include it- that neither furthered the plot nor the characters that mattered.... but damn if it's not similar in tone to the beginning of his SIII! But- just because I hate those Lester bits to the depths of my soul- doesn't mean others aren't allowed to love those bits. On the other hand--- note that I rarely have any real hatred towards Lester's work on SIII- maybe because he's doing this own thing and not ruining someone else's (though some might say improving) work. In any case- it is what it is.... hopefully we hear Lester's side of the story before I die, (and I am open to it!!!) but.... not holding my breath. |
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 4, 2023 2:22:50 GMT -5
What if Lois had taken up Rocky on his offer to buy her something to eat? What would Clark's reaction have been if he came back from the restroom and Lois told him "Hey Clark this nice man named Rocky has offered to pay for my meal!" Would Clark be happy about Lois getting free food? Maybe Clark would ask Rocky if he would pay for his meal too?
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crown
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Post by crown on Jul 5, 2023 3:38:39 GMT -5
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dejan
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Post by dejan on Jul 5, 2023 7:00:28 GMT -5
Lol! I could see Cavill's Supes/Clark doing that.......and with Snyder directing , it would probably be in slow motion too!. |
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