BvS and Save Martha. T2, Sarah Connor, and Miles Dyson.

[Metallo]

I was watching Terminator 2 and it occurred to me that the scene where Sarah nearly kills Dyson but stops herself was similar to the scene in Batman V Superman where Batman nearly kills Superman. Not exactly the same obviously but similar. I’d never made the connection before but the set ups and motivations are very similar in some ways.

Sarah sees Dyson as a threat to the world and the human race and dehumanizes him so that she can kill him and change the future. Batman sees Superman as a threat to the world and the human race and dehumanizes him so that he can kill him and change the future. Batman and Sarah both even have dreams and premonitions about apocalyptic futures that bolster them on in their missions.

Miles doesn’t beg for his own life but begs that his family be spared. Superman doesn’t beg for his life but is concerned about the life of his mother. Both selfless when facing death. It’s something that humanizes both potential victims. In both cases Sarah and Batman realize that they have become the bad guys, the killers, the threat about to execute an innocent person. In Sarah’s case she’s become the thing she was afraid of for so long: the human equivalent of a terminator.

But why did the scene work so well in T2 but become the butt of endless memes, jokes, and ridicule after BVS? It’s all about execution. Everyone knew what they were trying to do with the scene in BVS but it’s so awkward and forced. It’s built on cheap lazy ideas. Batman makes his choice to stop after Lois intervenes. Sarah stops herself before John gets there. It made her more sympathetic somehow as well as a deeper thinking character.

Batman is supposed to be brilliant but throughout BVS he comes off as an easily manipulated fool. Batman’s motivation also makes less sense because he doesn’t know for sure what will happen while Sarah does. It makes her feelings and actions more understandable even if what she was about to do was wrong. It creates a more powerful emotional conflict for her and the audience.

Cameron was a better storyteller and got the perfect performances out of his actors to convey what they were feeling and thinking. In T2 they don’t even use exact words to tell you what’s going on internally while in BVS it’s almost spelled out for you with Lois’s line “it’s his mother’s name.”

[crazy_asian_man]

Jan 20, 2024 17:16:13 GMT -5 Metallo said:

I was watching Terminator 2 and it occurred to me that the scene where Sarah nearly kills Dyson but stops herself was similar to the scene in Batman V Superman where Batman nearly kills Superman. Not exactly the same obviously but similar. I’d never made the connection before but the set ups and motivations are very similar in some ways.

Sarah sees Dyson as a threat to the world and the human race and dehumanizes him so that she can kill him and change the future. Batman sees Superman as a threat to the world and the human race and dehumanizes him so that he can kill him and change the future. Batman and Sarah both even have dreams and premonitions about apocalyptic futures that bolster them on in their missions.

Miles doesn’t beg for his own life but begs that his family be spared. Superman doesn’t beg for his life but is concerned about the life of his mother. Both selfless when facing death. It’s something that humanizes both potential victims. In both cases Sarah and Batman realize that they have become the bad guys, the killers, the threat about to execute an innocent person. In Sarah’s case she’s become the thing she was afraid of for so long: the human equivalent of a terminator.

But why did the scene work so well in T2 but become the butt of endless memes, jokes, and ridicule after BVS? It’s all about execution. Everyone knew what they were trying to do with the scene in BVS but it’s so awkward and forced. It’s built on cheap lazy ideas. Batman makes his choice to stop after Lois intervenes. Sarah stops herself before John gets there. It made her more sympathetic somehow as well as a deeper thinking character.

Batman is supposed to be brilliant but throughout BVS he comes off as an easily manipulated fool. Batman’s motivation also makes less sense because he doesn’t know for sure what will happen while Sarah does. It makes her feelings and actions more understandable even if what she was about to do was wrong. It creates a more powerful emotional conflict for her and the audience.

Cameron was a better storyteller and got the perfect performances out of his actors to convey what they were feeling and thinking. In T2 they don’t even use exact words to tell you what’s going on internally while in BVS it’s almost spelled out for you with Lois’s line “it’s his mother’s name.”

Interesting post.... I actually liked BVS - compared to MOS. But in the same way that I enjoyed FF #2- the first movie set the bar low enough that I was able to enjoy the sequel more by lowered expectations.

[Kamdan]

Another huge reason Terminator 2’s scene works is Hamilton’s ability to go from highly crazed nature of hers to puddling venerability when she realizes she can’t just kill someone in front of their loved ones. I think a lot about how that’s one of the most hallmark scenes in the movie and when you know that Hamilton suffers from bipolar issues, you wish you could be like John and be there to hug and comfort her when she’s crying.

[crazy_asian_man]

Just saw T2 theatrical at "Flashback Cinema" (far cheaper than the Fathom events)- thought about this thread at the same time.

First off, imo the extended director's cut (as well as Aliens' extended director's cut) is much better- though the original was fine as it was... and I'd seen it a billion times- so I think the problem is knowing that both Arnold's and Linda's characters were going to make it to the end (didn't know that the first time I saw it) makes it feel like a chase scene or two too long in rewatching a billion and one times.

To me, Cameron's crowning achievements are: Aliens & Terminator 2 extended cuts and (you may laugh, that's fine) the theatrical of Titanic. His other films are good, but... that's a much longer post.

The thing in watching the action sequences in T2 again.... made me wonder about what his Spiderman would have looked like, during this time in his filmmaking career. It's like every second is worth framing. I imagine Spiderman would have been the same.

In any case, also made me think of what he might have done (naturally) with Superman. Cameron has said (much like Donner) that his films are essentially love stories and (much like Donner) is a perfectionist.

Would have been interesting to hear what his thoughts were on Donner's Superman. I do know he keeps saying when he saw Star Wars, he was mad because it was the film he wanted to make.... but he also grew up wanting to be a comic book artist, so--- very curious.... though it's odd to hear him criticize Marvel, given his early comic book love.