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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 8, 2021 15:26:49 GMT -5
I'm currently re-watching "Avengers: Infinity War" and the humor but the intensity and spectacle of Thanos & his children battling the Avengers makes me feel how I feel Donner's Metro battle would have been tone-wise. As in the Mank script of SII- there's no humor to the battle--- there is humor in the Infinity War, but the battles are completely serious and engaging and the humor is truthful to the characters as designed. I still remember each viewing at the theatres of Infinity War and Endgame to a packed theatre where EVERYONE was hanginng on each and every moment. Not all the MCU movies are perfect, of course, but tonally I felt I got the type of feeling and excitement I anticipated having with that big battle in SII by Donner originally, but felt robbed of by Lester's approach. Had the feeling for a second or two, but sadly that was it. If you subtract all the comedic cutaways, there's very little to the battle- unfortunately. I think we might be viewing our movie experiences through different filters(which is cool). I personally enjoyed Endgame and Infinity War. However, I did not see them in the cinema....but I do own the 4K versions and have used them to give my home theater system a good work out!. There is a youtube video of an audience member recording the reactions in the cinema as the film(s) unfold. Very cool. No doubt people/fans had a blast watching them(except for the guy who keeps shouting "ahhh s**t!!!! once too often ---lol). But, IMHO, they are only great contemporary super hero flicks(from a story telling perspective) when compared to the current fantasy/sci fi opposition...which are average/mediocre at best(Spiderman Far From Home, Captain Marvel, Terminator: Dark Fate, Rise Of Skywalker, Frozen, Aquaman, Shazam, Toy Story 4 and the list goes on). SII's direct competition was a mix of genres(social dramas/historical/comedy) some of which met with critical acclaim at the time of release: On Golden Pond, Chariots Of Fire, Reds, French Lieutenant's Woman , Arthur, Stripes ect .....as well as an obligatory mix of sci fi/fantasy/action/horror: Raiders, Clash Of The Titans, Outland, Dragon Slayer, Excalibur, American Werewolf in London , For Your Eyes Only, Escape From New York ect ect (I saw Clash and Eyes Only in the theater in 81', and enjoyed both of them..........but SII was in a different league!) So compared to it's contemporaries ........SII stood out from the crowd with a heck of a lot to spare. And there in lies the difference. There is absolutely nothing in Endgame or Infinity War(from a spectacle perspective) that has not been seen before in Transformers, The Hobbit/Lord Of The Rings, Potter, DC or other Marvel flicks, Star Wars prequels/sequels, Pacific Rims, Fast And Furious ect ect. If I want to watch mega CGI city destructions......Michael Bay had/has already provided plenty of that trash! SII's spectacle was unique(in 1981) with only the 2 year old STM(at that point) rivalling or surpassing it. Indeed some contemporary critics deemed SII's effects to be better than STM. In terms of the tone, I understand 100% where you are coming from and what you would have preferred to see on screen with regards to SII in 1981. All I can say is that from my perspective, I will still take that flying ice cream and toupee' in SII to that quick bit of banter in Infinity War: "New haircut?" "I see you copied my beard----by the way this is my friend...Tree" "I am groot" "I am Steve Rodgers" "How much for the gun" "Not for sale" "How much for the arm"---oh I will get that off" "It's not gonna be like NYC pal......this suit has already kicked the crap out of the Hulk! ect ect......and I could go on. Completely takes me out of the battle when characters mouth off such nonsense to each other(with CG characters fighting in the background---Attack Of The Clones pioneered that one!) but I get why it's there.....and as I said, I did ultimately enjoy these flicks. As I also said, I have a 2:35 100inch scope screen(with an anamorphic lens) and a pseudo 8K projection system(calibrated). And I have compared Reeve's Supes films to many of Marvel (and DC) contemporary flicks, as well as other contemporary sci -fi stuff(just isolating specific scenes). And IMHO ,hands down , there is no substitute for real life miniatures(no matter how cumbersome they are), optical composites, natural lighting, mattes and live action set pieces on a big screen. As a more basic comparison ,when you see the Arab army ride into Aqaba with 100's of horsemen(er camels!) in Lawrence Of Arabia...............it's way more visceral than watching the CG horse bound Rohirim storm Minis Tirith in Return Of The King(I know they did use live action extras for those scenes.....but the green/blue screen extensions are very disconcerting on a big screen). Trust me, Lester's SII & SIII hold up very well as does STM(of course!)....from a cinematographic point of view when compared to something like Lord Of The Rings ,Transformers (1-5) or Endgame/Infinity. SIV also has bits of nice photography here and there.......but the lack of passion(not the budget) are the true inhibitors for that particular project. Yeah... I wasn't a fan of the quips mid-battle myself with those characters but I was thinking more along the lines of the last portion where they stopped quipping and the earlier battles (on Titan with only Spiderman & Starlord making any remarks- more natural I think)- I didn't mind the more absurd or naturally funny characters like Spiderman or Rocket making remarks, but the 'banter' between the other characters took me out the action also in the last act and not needed. I think the main reason was to avoid a half hour of relentless mayhem like MOS's last act without relief, but I don't feel most of those extra asides felt truthful at all- or at least they way they were delivered and edited seemed VERY forced. (Fortunately, the second half with Endgame felt much more intense and tighter all around imo) But- for SII's case, Hackman's humor was just enough imo.... didn't need (and it didn't help) to have the villains be humorous, let alone the citizens of Metropolis. One question I might ask though is: If comparing the Mank-scripted metro battle versus the rewritten Metro battle under Lester - Do you feel like the lightening is preferred over the 'darker' Mank version? If so, I respect if we look at it differently- just curious....
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 8, 2021 15:18:38 GMT -5
8 years later, and still nobody has identified who the Reeve Only People are. I think the Reeve only people are the ones who bought the Hot Toys, dvds, blu rays, etc. over the last 40 years...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 8, 2021 15:16:18 GMT -5
That's very cool- I wish I was able to have picked up a second one, but now only waitlisting available... Still available near me. Cheapest I've seen was $140. I can pick you one up if you want. I just bought the tin and flight stand separate, not interest in the figure itself. Still looking for the console loose buy not seen one cheap enough yet. Thanks Booshman, but I'm fine just with the one after all- The main thing I initiallly got it for was the awesome console- but even then... I was hoping it was 1/6 to fit with the Hot Toys Reeve version and didn't pay attention to the scale listed- but the tin was nice consolation in a way.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 6, 2021 15:45:26 GMT -5
@cam Can see where you are coming from there, bud. I have re-read the Mank SII script with regards to the metropolis punch up. It's interesting because at least the first 2/3rds of that fight involve just Non and Supes! Zod then joins in and kicks Supes into the Cola display. And it culminates with Ursa picking up and throwing that bus(with no help from Non!) . But it looks like Donner made adjustments on the fly as he was shooting.......seeing as it is Supes who gets kicked into the Statue Of Liberty(as opposed to Non, in the Mank script). Maybe Donner realized that Mank's script was too Supes Vs Non centric.......hence the reason why he chose to shoot Zod kick Supes into the Liberty....again I am speculating. In the theatrical, to be fair, Supes does kick Non in the head(as opposed to punching him).....so there is a bit of airborne physical fighting, so to speak. I do remember people in the theater laughing when Supes slipped through Non's clutches to then get hit by Ursa's lamp post("wow....home run!"). That happened on both my theatrical viewings in 81' and 82. As I said, the cinematic sensibilities of the time period are totally different to what we have now. And IMHO....what we have now is shockingly bad. But that is for another thread. I'm currently re-watching "Avengers: Infinity War" and the humor but the intensity and spectacle of Thanos & his children battling the Avengers makes me feel how I feel Donner's Metro battle would have been tone-wise. As in the Mank script of SII- there's no humor to the battle--- there is humor in the Infinity War, but the battles are completely serious and engaging and the humor is truthful to the characters as designed. I still remember each viewing at the theatres of Infinity War and Endgame to a packed theatre where EVERYONE was hanginng on each and every moment. Not all the MCU movies are perfect, of course, but tonally I felt I got the type of feeling and excitement I anticipated having with that big battle in SII by Donner originally, but felt robbed of by Lester's approach. Had the feeling for a second or two, but sadly that was it. If you subtract all the comedic cutaways, there's very little to the battle- unfortunately.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 6, 2021 11:27:13 GMT -5
I think they’re leaning into the Elseworlds takes. It worked for Joker. I'm divided as to whether this is the best approach for WB/DC going forward, given all their missteps. The MCU wasn't perfect (Iron Man 2 and Thor 1 come to mind...)- but the heights it continues to reach creatively (and box office wise) is unprecedented for superhero adaptations. We know WB/DC tried to do the reverse pattern with the Snyderverse, but without a Kevin Feige equivalent over there, things seem to be just lucky to reach the point of being greenlit.... how long has it been since a Flash movie has been announced? And at this point, how much will having multiple versions of characters out there help or hurt the box office? (Not to mention creatively?)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 22:52:35 GMT -5
@cam(and ATP) You made an interesting observation regarding the death star climax from Star Wars 77' and how that compares to SII's finale. Apart from seeing the STM/SII double bill in June 81'.......I also saw Star Wars/Empire back to back(also for the first time) a few months before( April 81'). So yeah....from a personal perspective, those few months in 81' were somewhat of a personal revolution in terms of enjoying a cinematic experience. The cheer size of the At-At's is still an indelible memory . But at no time whilst watching SII's metropolis punch up did I think about Star Wars's(or Empire's) amazing pitch battles. Totally different engagements. One featured all manner of space ships blasting at one another. The other had super humans ducking and weaving through the skies as they pounded each other. It's interesting that you perceived those airborne battles as being very quick(and you are not wrong to say that). But this was still 1981...... to even get a few seconds of Supes doing a double barrel roll and kick Non in the head was still quite awesome! Had there ever been another film that had airborne figures trying to swat each other?! Totally original as far as I am concerned and on par with Star War's dog fights in terms of novelty. So to have the odd toupee' fly off someone's head or an ice cream blow into someone's face may have been somewhat disgruntling to a more perceptible audience member.... but on my theatrical viewings of SII in 81' and 82', the mostly adult crowd that I saw it with, lapped it up.....as those mere seconds of superficial triviality were overshadowed by Supes being tossed into a Malboro truck.....and Non and Ursa throwing that bus! As opposed to Nuclear Man's "If you do not tell me....I will hurt people!!"....which drew howls of derision on my theatrical viewing (and I was hurt quite deeply by what I saw that night in 87'!). As for the East Houston stuff. Zod deflecting the fire onto the tavern or Ursa blowing the helicopter into the barn, especially for the time period, were visually quite striking and psychologically very powerful. Was there another film before Supes II, that showed a human who was impervious to fire(well there was STM.....but that scene was cut out!).....or that showed a woman forcing a helicopter to crash....by merely blowing at it( I have tried to phrase that carefully! ). Of course we are so desensitized now.....having watched The Battle Of Minis Tirith, Pod Racing, Neo fighting 1000's of Agent Smiths ect ect......that Non zapping a jeep into a building may seem quite quaint by comparison! But I will still take that over thousands of digital orcs, Stormtroopers or agent Smiths! I actually watched the Lord Of The Rings Trilogy in 4K recently.......and nothing takes me out of a movie more than seeing a bunch of elaborate digital cartoons(orcs, trolls, oliphants ect ) bash into each other. I will take that 18 inch puppet Rancor(manned by Phil Tippet) from Return Of The Jedi any day of the week.......over that troll from Fellowship. Heck, I will even take those Ewoks......at least they are real! And on a big screen , there is no comparison. Around this time- I think the second Star Wars film had come out before or about the same time- and the leaps and bounds the Star Wars films made with effects, I had expected with Superman II--- so for the flying/punching to be truncated so much and replaced by Lester's 'gags' annoyed me to no end. Superman never even punches anyone ONCE on-screen in the Lester version! The Donner version only had the one shot for the trailer inserted, but it's better than nothing...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 22:49:10 GMT -5
www.darkhorizons.com/the-flash-series-loses-two-key-cast/A shame to see em go but it was obvious in his last episode that they were writing Wells out. What else can they do with a new version of him? I’m guessing Cavanagh wants to try some new things. Valdes has had one foot out the door for years. He hasn’t exactly hidden the fact that he’s ready to move on. Plus between Cisco being gone so much and all the new characters they’ve obviously been preparing for his exit. The end of season six and seven also means a lot of contracts were up. Letting the actors move on or letting the network decide not to bring them back if their asking prices are too high. I wasn't originally planning to get all the seasons of Flash, but with WB dvd division disappearing next year, I think I've got to catchup and pickup the whole arrovverse stuff soon... but I got a feeling a LOT of the seasons are pretty repetitive if constantly writing just to keep the same cast members...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 22:45:29 GMT -5
So this and the Robert Pattinson are sort of "Elsewhere" versions? Hm..
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 22:42:41 GMT -5
I always wonder about how that would be figured out- if everything had been storyboarded, if locations were already prepped/whatnot- if it wasn't severely rewritten, would it have been pretty fast and smooth to where one could feel like there wasn't that much to complete? (outside of reshooting Jor-el's scenes with another actor/minor reshoots?) In other words, when one takes into account amount completed- would that include having everything setup for point and shoot? (unless rewritten by Lester's group?) In Petrou's book......there is a reference to Donner's office which was replete with bar charts ,schematics and graphs expressing how much of STM had been shot(or yet to be shot) at the time of writing(1977). It could be that the Niagra Falls location points may have already been mapped out during Donner's reign. The construction of 52nd St at Pinewood must also have been pre-planned during the Donner shoot. But I am speculating here! In Mank's SII script there is a quasi type kitchen in the FOS....as well as a bed and recreation area where Lois and Supes watch videos of him as a kid. In Lester's version that dining table backs up onto the section that features the bed......in effect substituting the kitchen that would have featured in Donner's FOS. Theoretically Donner would only have had to construct that kitchen/recreation area to complete his SII as all the other FOS stuff had been completed(Lex/Jorel/Depowering/Repowering/fighting the villains). Unless as you say, Donner substituted Brando's scenes with a new actor(or with York)......then that would have necessitated having to rebuild the FOS in it's entirety....as Lester did. It's possible that Donner's team had already figured out where they would shoot in Washington.....as Spengler, the US location manager and Donner himself, had gone to the 70mm IMAX to watch a film about flight(this was where they came to the decision to shoot in 35mm only.....as 70mm was deemed to be too expensive). The major beef I have with Lester is that he stopped Donner from continuing to shoot SII at a critical juncture. Just imagine if Donner had filmed all the Niagra and Washington stuff...........it would have been way too expensive to reshoot it all again(so as to deprive Donner of his credit) with another director. So the decision to halt Donner in his tracks for the SII shoot......was cold and calculating. They knew that not enough of it was completed......to make it cost effective to shoot the remaining scenes with another director! In Petrou's book....it says that Donner enthusiastically agreed to the moritorium on SII. But in hindsight I think he knew that they had ulterior plans to ditch him after STM was released. As for STM....it definitely is not just a classic super hero movie......but a classic movie. Period. The thing that drives me nuts is that Lester actually could have just kept the course with Mank's script... and still have raised his stock market value at the time. Lester was capable of drama and shooting fast and quick.... even if his scenes would have lacked the polish visually that almost every shot of STM had- but it would have kept the real core of the Mank script alive if he had. The fact that WB went back to Donner and Mank after Superman 3 and asked them to fix Superman was probably NOT a big secret in Hollywood circles. It's probably one of many reasons why there's no Lester commentary on SII and SIII- he knew what people were saying in Hollywood who were in the know about who really provided the high standard for the Reeve Superman material... In regards to production- I agree.... with Niagara being such a giant set piece, I can't imagine the production team waiting until the last minute to do the research when planning both productions at the same time. I don't know if Donner's team prepped the idea of making a city set, but it still would have made the most sense.... though totally not used to maximum effect. The idea of building what looked like half a city set for Metropolis also drives me nuts because in the behind the scenes footage- it looks like a real city and I'm sure wasn't cheap!!! With the way Lester lit and shot it - it looks more often than not like a cheap giant stage set.... but it didn't have to be. I don't blame Donner for still being pissed at Lester, but Lester could also apologize while he's still able to. It would be a nice thing for fences to be met considering the times...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 22:31:42 GMT -5
Beau Weaver voiced Superman in the 1988 Superman animated series then voiced Mr. Fantastic in the 1994 Fantastic Four animated series. Ah! thanks.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 22:30:58 GMT -5
Doesn't it seem RIGHT to have the red shorts? It's just not Superman without them, imo...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 5, 2021 2:39:26 GMT -5
It claims that 75% of Superman 2 had been completed by Donner. I always wonder about how that would be figured out- if everything had been storyboarded, if locations were already prepped/whatnot- if it wasn't severely rewritten, would it have been pretty fast and smooth to where one could feel like there wasn't that much to complete? (outside of reshooting Jor-el's scenes with another actor/minor reshoots?) In other words, when one takes into account amount completed- would that include having everything setup for point and shoot? (unless rewritten by Lester's group?)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 4, 2021 19:13:24 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 3, 2021 23:38:08 GMT -5
It’s bs. It all started with a Twitter campaign to cast Routh. As for if he’d be an actual good choice? Seems like the only reason people picked him was because he played science nerd Ray Palmer in the Arrowverse and then they saw him with gray hair at his temples when he played Superman again in COIE. Fanboys, especially this younger generation of them, are so superficial. I like Routh but I have to think there’s a better choice out there. A fresher face to the genre. Although...he wouldn’t be the first person to play Superman that went on to play Mr Fantastic a few years later. I'm curious who played Superman & then Mr. Fantastic before? I like Routh but want him back as Supes or Ray Palmer. It would feel a bit much to have him also play Mr.Fantastic... but then again.... I said the same thing about Chris Evans in the beginning being cast as Captain America after being the Human Torch as was TOTALLY wrong on that one!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on May 3, 2021 12:14:58 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 29, 2021 19:55:09 GMT -5
Gal Gadot...is not a very good actress. I don't know if the combination of everything put into the films, but she works great as Wonder Woman. I buy her as someone able to kick arse and not just posing as such.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 22:48:46 GMT -5
Hilarious... now it's stuck in my head...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 22:32:44 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 11:38:31 GMT -5
On a similar note, talking about Hot Toys and how much they continue to advance... those Arnie Kim prototypes of the Villains are FANTASTIC.... but there's no Hot Toys production on the slate for them as far as I can see.... but maybe that's good so I can have time to save up the $$$ for it.... Reeve Superman could use a redo by Hot Toys. Better body and proportions and paint detail could go a long way as could a more detailed and accurate suit. The Routh Superman figure needs a serious update. Everything about it is very dated to the point that it looks more like a low end doll rather than a high end piece. I was hoping they’d make an Earth 96 Superman in the Kingdom Come suit if they want to do something more relevant and don’t want to license Superman Returns material. That's a great idea! But--- at this point, I'd rather they start working on replicating the awesome Arnie Kim phantom zone villains that look SOOOO good!!!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 11:36:40 GMT -5
I used to think that in Lester's footage, Zod was always less menacing than in Donner's. But yesterday I watched S2 again, and noticed two Lester shots where he looks pretty chilling. First is where he lands on top of the car, just after Superman goes flying into it because of the manhole cover. Second in in the fortress where he loses it and screams "Fools. Take him. Take. Hiiiiiiiiim." Unfortunately, these are the exceptions. I wish the sherriff car and East Houston scenes had never been part of S2. Agreed... they weren't part of the Mank/Donner script. Also what undermines the moments of Zod during the battle--- The cutaways to the woman in the car underneath who says, "The car! He'll pay for it!" while Superman is smashed against the windshield and then--- a shot of the same woman EATING Popeye's chicken if you look at the shot of Supes throwing the dummy of Zod out of frame. Great direction, Lester---so much for trying to be faithful to the spirit of the first movie! (grrr)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 11:25:51 GMT -5
The timing really sucks. Couldn't they have had this AFTER a SII international cut got released? Really.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 1:12:44 GMT -5
The Otis stuff in STM annoys me more than most of the humour in S2. And the "Say Jim, that's a bad outfit!" part in STM is just as out of place as some of the crowd reactions in S2. Despite that, it still somehow works! I wonder if it would be better in S2 to have Superman dodge the bus and just fly away. Interesting idea for a fan cut! It would make the comments about chickening out and being a phony and a coward be more appropriate. It would also remove all the superbreath nonsense totally. The first STM I feel is a celebration of the joy before the darkness. I was thrilled when I first found someone at a convention who owned a copy of SII (wish I remembered his name) and sent me a hardcopy of his copy of the Mank script- the seriousness of the script convinced me that I wasn't imagining my feeling that the second one in the theatres was really 'off' from the vision of the first one.... the scenes read like a perfect compliment. Otis and Lex annoyed me in the first film- but he's a perfect foil for the seriousness (as originally conceived by Donner) for the second one. STM was setup for SII in more ways than one. If Richard Donner wasn't able to be allowed to finish SII, I just wish we got a director who was going to honor the script for SII as originally written and not have had it rewritten and tones changed. It already had multiple rewrites and Mank's rewrite was the one that Donner approved for shooting. I would have been okay with recasting Brando, as good as Susannah York was. Reeve and Kidder and the rest already 'fit into their characters' by the end of shooting STM- I really feel the movie was ready to just plug and play- for any director as long as you had good intents to finish it as scripted.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 1:05:05 GMT -5
That's very cool- I wish I was able to have picked up a second one, but now only waitlisting available...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 25, 2021 1:03:52 GMT -5
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Apr 23, 2021 16:20:06 GMT -5
I think the new statue looks off. It's better than their last effort but still a way off. It looks like a caricature rather than a realistic portrait. I see they ditched the sewn in S after all the QC issues they had last time. I still think the portrait on the Neca is very good, not perfect but it looks more like a human than this one. It just lacks the paint apps out of the box. Hot toys is great but they've improved further since it was made, if they did a 2.0 they could pull off something amazing. On a similar note, talking about Hot Toys and how much they continue to advance... those Arnie Kim prototypes of the Villains are FANTASTIC.... but there's no Hot Toys production on the slate for them as far as I can see.... but maybe that's good so I can have time to save up the $$$ for it....
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