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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2023 18:38:51 GMT -5
Would he have been able to create CGI villains back in 1980? Probably didn't have the technology until 1993. If they could make a CGI dinosaur I don't think a CGI Terrance Stamp Sarah Douglas and Jack O'Halloran would have been too difficult either. Bigger question is, how do you convincingly portray "ruling the world" with just a 20 second sequence of key monuments being destroyed? How does the mere act destroying key monuments equate to "ruling" the world? Hmn.... cgi humans still weren't too convincing for awhile, if I recall right, around that time. Recently saw a bts on Avatar 2 that talked about facial mo-cap being even more sophisticated--- what I would love (If I were a rich man) is to see the actors do facial mo-cap so that we'd get a lot of the nuances of closeups during the Metro battle. There's seconds in the slivers of the Donner cut/extended cut with the rage between Superman and Non in the extended FOS bit. Love to have seen how it would have been had we had the full sequence under Donner for the Metro battle in the first place. But- again, I guess we're lucky we even got a few seconds, given the situation. Oh well...
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2023 18:33:11 GMT -5
Well, they did sleep together and had at least one date behind their relationship. I remember Margot Kidder saying in retrospect she wished her character never slept with Superman, that it crossed a line from being a family film or something to that effect. I guess the movie could have still worked if you cut out them going to the Fortress of Solitude bed... (shrug) But it would have ruined the comic timing of a guy in the movie theatre who screamed out 'was it worth it, buddy?' in the packed theatre after the shot of Supes and Lois snuggling in bed. That did get a big laugh that Lester was hoping for during the five minutes of sight gags in the Metro battle, but didn't get.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 14, 2023 18:24:15 GMT -5
CAM wrote; Agreed with all the above. I would add that the Godzilla films never pretended to be anything other than what they were. The Superman films, at least by the time of IV,from a qualatitive standpoint, were expected to be at a certain level , in terms of acting proficiency,editing and technical effects. And SIV betrayed all those aspects. Despite this, the promotion for SIV still attempted to parade the film as if it was of the quality of the original and better than the sequels! "His most important adventure": "His greatest adventure": Letterman: "So how is it?.....is it a good movie?" Kidder: "Yeah!" @28:19 I can only think of one response: I don't ever blame a marketing (or advertising) department for being less than 100 percent truthful.... it's like believing hype. Or actors who promote a film that is horrible by the time it's finished that they end up being disappointed in or know is a turd... #1: They're contractually obligated to- if one had a dime for every film that an actor promoted that they didn't even see or believed in.... #2: Actors also aren't necessarily objective about their own films. I remember briefly doing wedding videos that I considered cinematic masterpieces (kidding)- with editing, special effects, etc.--- and then having the folks involved only noticing if they looked fat or not! Not the same thing, I know... but sometimes I imagine it is, when it's actors looking at their own films! #3: Presumably they TRIED to do a good film. And maybe the did feel it was good enough. (Also, they might have seen the film's rough cut minus fx) As far as presenting oneself truthfully and feeling like someone intentionally misrepresented something, I go back to Lester and the editing of "The Making of Superman II"! (but I'll get off that horse.... for two hours, anyways. )
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2023 14:25:57 GMT -5
Finally got round to watching Assassins for the first time. Not bad at all. Loved the interplay between Banderas and Stallone in the taxi(was Mann aping this in Collateral?!) Then the movie sagged a little after that. I noticed one or 2 mannerisms from Banderas that may have influenced Ledger in The Dark Knight , maybe!? But yeah.....I thought Stallone was a touch too cool throughout this one....I never felt that he was going to lose to Antonio. Also much like Maverick, Donner got sucked into the whole one twist after another shtick, again in the final 20 mins or so. But I think I prefer this to Conspiracy Theory , funnily enough......and may be Lethal Weapon 3(and possibly even 4!). Might have to give it another look at. Blu Ray has excellent picture quality. So for Donner's action movie sextology(1987- 1998)....I would put them in this order: LW2,LW1,Assassins tied with LW4,Conspiracy Theory, LW3. Although that may change when I get my hands on Timeline and 16 Blocks.......but according to CAM's observations(who I trust implicitly!)....that's unlikely! I liked the characters of Banderas and Stallone, but I thought the screenplay by the Wachowski's was really lacking. And... thanks for the trust- but I can change my mind from time to time! (Just a heads up!) 16 Blocks was fine, but not as stylish or distinctive as I thought the best of DOnner's work was.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2023 14:22:31 GMT -5
If we are being ultra critical for SII, of course, cosmanaut Boris and co would not have been able to speak to Zod,Ursa and co on the moon,either. Also, Ursa makes a reference to how Non crushed the lunar module "like paper". Unless she was refering to Kryptonian paper???!! Anyways, Mank and Donner shoulder the blame for those. Lester also takes the blame for not noticing! But if Donner(if he had been allowed to finish) or Lester noticed the error and tried to fix the "no talking on the moon" conundrum.....how would they have approached it in post production? Maybe through the use of subtitles? Ursa: "You.....what kind of creature are you?" Cosmanaut: "what the f**k are ya sayin' , baby?"! Maybe the kryptonians could have used some form of telepathic communication....like Lady Galadriel in Fellowship Of The Ring. It may have violated comic book canon....but it would have maintained the reality of physics. Anyways. 40 years too late! lol! Nah, I'll always only be ultra-critical of Lester. (Kidding! Kidder! I mean... kidding!)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2023 14:17:53 GMT -5
..... Maybe it's a discussion for another thread and a philosophical one at that. But nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything is part of a whole from a perceptual perspective. From politics to love to societal infrastructures ect ect. Movie watching is no different. Comparisons between movies are always being made, subconsciously or subliminally. I see on one of the other threads that you and Kamdan were questioning(and rightly so) Lucas's ability as a script writer. But that was the magic of Star Wars, that despite suffering from some of George's clunky dialogue and exposition, that it still stood out like a sore thumb from an audio/visual/kinetic perspective, from the rest of the crowd. I mean what else was there in 77' or the mid 70s in general? Annie Hall(a very fine picture by the way!) Smokey And The Bandit? Saturday Night Fever? Julia? A Bridge Too Far The Sorcerer(a superb film....unjustly obscured by Star Wars). All fine films.....but Star Wars was different. Or from a science fiction angle....... Logan's Run,Silent Running,Soylent Green,The Andromeda Strain(excellent film),WestWorld,Sinbad & The Eye Of The Tiger(lol!) ...jeez, even the original Batman films from the 60s! ect ect. Again...lots of fun to be had with all the above(indeed I have them all in me collection).......but they don't hold a candle to Star Wars(IMHO!). I know it's a cliche' but timing is everything in art. Lucas , despite his deficiencies, struck at absolutely the right time. Furie not only struck at the wrong time with SIV - by that point, Top Gun was still doing the rounds - Predator and Aliens were upping the ante' for dramatic science fiction, Star Trek IV showed how sequels and lovable characters could be maintained within the popular zeitgeist - Dangerous Liasons( a film that Reeve turned down?) kept audiences on the edge of their seats. Even The Living Daylights was executed well from a technical perspective, despite having a new Bond who was finding his feat. Flight Of The Navigator broke new ground with embrionic CG effects. And in comes this turd called Superman IV! Enough said! Lakin needs a wake up call. Ollie Harper, who like me, hails from Cambridge....came to his senses very quickly after seing STM and the rest after his initial radioactive exposure to SIV! On edit: I realized I mised off Close Encounters from the 1977 list of rivals to Star Wars. A great film in my view, but some reviewers found it a touch boring. From a visual perspective, it takes off in the final 30 mins or so.....and the rousing Williams music gives it an emotional send off. But even Spielberg said that it played second fiddle to Star Wars from a visual perspective. I had zero problems with the scripts (or dialogue) for the original Star Wars & Empire Strikes back - those two are 'for the vaults' imo- but if the readings were correct about the other screenwriters, then he didn't write the scripts (nor dialogue) for the final shooting script for SW: A new hope! So my criticism is about Lucas the screenwriter- but the dialogue was fine for me on the original trilogy. When I talk of folks viewing SIV 'at the right age'---- It's subjective. There's a 'golden period' I feel between childhood to the edge of being a snarky cynical dark unpleasant teen where one is more open, accepting, and cool with things imperfect--- SIV- is a mess, but I could easily see a kid who didn't see a lot of the other cool movies first totally loving it, in the way tha I loved the cheesy Godzilla movies where it was obvious that it was a guy in a suit and bad dubbing or the Wolfman or Frankenstein movies of the 50's. With CE3k..... I had the worst first experience in having the usher let me in (accidentally) to the theatre and see the LAST ten minutes from a prior show before seeing the actual movie! Worst spoiler event in my movie history! But- seeing it in a megatheatre with fantastic audio was still dazzling, but the story was ruined completely for me.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 12, 2023 2:20:31 GMT -5
Points taken dear CAM! ... I would say having gone through pretty much most of Lester's stuff(that now includes the rare but much sought after Royal Flash)......that I have no doubts that he could have replicated the lunar and White House stuff , beat for beat, shot for shot, that Donner had already layed down, if neccessary. I'm glad we can peacefully disagree. Long story short, we have completely different views on Lester and Donner, from the ground up and that's totally cool. On the other hand, I've always said Lester made an excellent Three Musketeers film.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 16:14:46 GMT -5
Updated: Saw the local movie theatre ticket sales for the first day.... NOT sold out... and it's only a few days away. Maybe "superhero movie fatigue" HAS set in! "Eternals", "Shazam 2", "Ant-Man 2" have all been box office disappointments- (GOTG #3 is doing ok- $69 mil short of GOTG #2, but still $800+ mil nothing to snort at.) Flash has gotten nothing but great buzz.... and Michael Keaton's Batman should have helped, but suprised it doesn't look like it so far. I do wonder if it'll be a 'sleeper' that grows, but... I also wonder- what percentage of comic book fans have started NOT going to see comic book movies versus the non-comic book fans? (Shrug. I really don't know nor know where the stats are to be found on this).
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 15:39:59 GMT -5
@cam As a side note regarding Hackman's inability(desired or not) for the completion of SII: In Petrou's book, Lester says that he turned Hackman down for Petulia in 1968, favouring the formidable George C Scott to play against Julie Christie, instead. So was wondering if there were some bad feelings between the 2 on the production set during STM because of that artistic rejection from 10 years prior? To be fair , Hackman did do the press junket at Niagra Falls and the premiere in New York City for SII in 1981, so maybe they buried the hatchet(if there was a hatchet) by the time of the theatrical release. As for recasting Brando.....hmmm.....IMHO(of course!),I actually prefer it the way it was given the conditions.....but of course I would have loved it if they could have used the already shot Donner stuff for the theatrical. Or how about this for a scenario: Donner is fired as happened...... But Brando buries the hatchet , the Salkinds pay him his royalties and is available for reshoots and extra footage under Lester! How would that have altered the dynamic of completing SII? Lester had never directed Brando before. And as such, by the time Lester was hired in his unofficial role as producer.....Brando had already left STM. In other words they would have been unfamiliar with each other. So that would have been an interesting working dynamic. But given Brando's gravitas....would that have induced Lester to go the extra yard(i.e expand the villains taking over the world ....no ice cream in the face ect ect). Yes. If Brando and Lester had gotten together for SII: Brando: "I want to be a bagel and make weird sounds so I can just stay in my trailer and eat more cream puffs." Lester: "I love it! How about some fart gags and a pie in the face, as I think this Superman legend is a complete joke and Donner was an idiot to treat it with respect?" Brando: "Can I stay in my trailer?" Lester: "Yes. And I'd like to put a rat toupee on top of the bagel." Brando: "You're my best director." Kidding aside.... Brando's presence in STM and the laid out plan for STM-SII didn't really sway Lester from trying to bend it all towards being a "Mad mad World"--- so I doubt it would have made any difference. If Ilya had told him he wanted things more serious, I think he would have listened, though, as wasn't Lester's career in the toilet at that point? And Reeve was mesmerized by Lester's reputation so he was willing to trust Lester completely, it seems. (Though, he had slightly stern words in an interview on SIII regarding its production on the press tour.)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 12:04:28 GMT -5
That's an interesting idea in terms of substituting Lex with Tesmacher. But it may have altered the "threat" dynamic. Lex had viable reasons for helping the villains after Supes stuffed his San Andreas fault plan. OTOH, Tesmacher had already saved Supes in STM. In the deleted scene(and rightly so).....Supes saved Tesmacher from the lions. So having her then be the arbiter/negociator/middlewoman with the villians would not make much narrative sense. Lets not forget that Supes went to all the trouble of saving Tesmacher's mum in New Jersey. So she probably loves the guy! She really has very little reason to screw with Supes......unlike Lex. So if Tesmacher was to be retconned in some version of SII......changes would have had to be made to STM to make it viable. But that was not neccessary! Glad that they didn't go this route.... but is fun to speculate and put the puzzle pieces together, no? Another way would have been just to recast both Brando (which I would have been fine with) and Hackman if, indeed, Hackman had the same contract and the producers wouldn't have wanted their footage cut out. That being the case, in one of these other multiverses- it would have been interesting to see if Donner would have shot it (in this other alt universe he would agree presumably) - or another equally capable director with the same aesthetics. Given all, I am suprised that -in Brando's case- why they didn't just recast and insert the shots, given how little he was in the film anyways. Even under Lester.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 11:55:04 GMT -5
Imagine Ursa and Non carrying Luthor and Lois respectively ....in space.....and that's Superman IV BS applied to SII , in a nutsheck! I'm still suprised at myself that to me- Lacey in space in SIV- was the least of SIV's errors! Still glad that they tried- but, it also made it a little easier to say 'goodbye' to the Reeve Superman franchise. And- it is interesting to hear about younger fans who caught SIV in the theatres at the time as their FIRST Reeve Superman film and loved it! (I hear similar stories about ROTJ being the first Star Wars film for younger folks than me and having no issues with Luke and Leia being twins- but it makes sense, if that was the first exposure to the series) At the same time- I do wonder how people who experienced SIV first, felt when they eventually (I assume) saw STM-SIII. That has to be weird, to say the least.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 11:49:03 GMT -5
I’ve often pondered how the Superman franchise would have been if they had started with lower budgets. Donner mentioned that when he signed on, he was told that all of the prep work for the flying units were ready, utilizing all of the known techniques of wire work and front projection and Donner scrapped all of it because it didn’t look real to him. This push undoubtedly made the films better but it drove the budget higher and higher. Another question to ponder is if the first two Superman movies would have been just as successful with budgets that matched Superman IV’s. I also wonder- given Donner's immense tv credits - if he would have scaled down everything to fit a smaller budget. The eternal arguments (that we'll never know the truth of)- (1) Is Donner's arguments that he never could get the budget from the producers, affecting his process, constantly putting him under stress. (2) Is Spengler's arguments that Donner was too much of a perfectionist and kept pushing things over budget. It is true based on the filmography of the Salkinds that the biggest prior films with Three Musketeers/Four Musketeers couldn't nearly be the same challenge as making a first-ever convincing set of Superman movies with tech that had to be invented for the first time... But- There's this... If the cast were still the same, and the human moments were the same- but the effects were shoddy- (because of a Canon budget)- maybe the movie wouldn't have been the blockbuster it was.... but you'd still have the A-list cast with great performances and well-written scenes. What I imagine would have stayed the same (that wouldn't seem to cost a lot--- and assuming the sets would be cheaper and the fx would be all cardboard) #1: The balcony scenes #2: The dramatic scenes of the trial on Krypton (minus the big sets) #3: The great Hackman/Villains scenes Presumably, many of the best scenes that didn't require spectacle still would have had great performances. One wonders if there were a better working relationship between the Salkinds and Donner, if- even with a lowered budget- maybe the box office might have been lower, but still profitable and Donner would have continued to make more Superman sequels- but within a modest budget. Lester for sure could have done it (and he did with SIII)- but his aesthetics for Superman were anything but sentimental. It might have also been successful (as SIII did turn a profit) but it would have had a more "Ant-Man" like tone to it, versus wearing its heart on its sleeve (but with a sense of humor) as was Donner's version.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 11:30:57 GMT -5
Lucas at some point didn’t value his collaborations with others. Willard and Gloria Huyck did indeed take another pass at the first Star Wars to make the dialogue sound more natural. It’s painfully obvious in all of the screen tests that when the actors recite Lucas’ original dialogue from the script, it comes off as clunky as many have criticized the prequels for. Another valued member of Lucas’ team was his wife Marcia, the only Lucas who has an Oscar. She proved her opinion even back during THX that she warned George that the movie was too abstract for audiences to understand. There’s a foreign version of the movie that attempts to salvage this by having a voiceover explain the background of this future. This is something the studio begged for but Lucas was stubborn enough not to want to change his movie for their own benefit. By the time the prequels rolled around and Lucas was left to his own devices, that stubbornness resulted in Episode I. He sought help with the last two prequels but it was too little too late and he became a contradiction of his famous “A special effect without a story is a pretty boring thing” quote. When you look back at some of the original story points for Return of the Jedi and Episode I, Lucas had some rather good first impression ideas that unfortunately must have been overthought and turned into what we ended up with, namely the childish antics of Jar Jar Binks. Great points brought up- a friend of mine who's even more into SW years ago mentioned the same... that Marcia Lucas and Gary Kurtz were also great assets that helped balance Lucas' aesthetics- I'll ALWAYS be giantly greatful for George Lucas for ultimately making Star Wars: A New Hope- just as I'll always be giantly greatful to the Salkinds and Donner for creating STM (Lester only for Three Musketeers to a lower degree, but that one's still a keeper)- Also- for that landmark film that arguably (with STM) made Singer's X-men, Raimi's Spiderman, and the MCU down the line possible sfx tech wise and from a biz point of view on making precedents that made giant box office to convince studios (or at least help persuade them) that an investment in it would be a possible winner. Also- for Lucas being a visionary on the technical side for seeing into the future with digital tech for the film industry, too. (What was interesting was reading how Favreau seems to have adopted this idea to push it forward, too- he had said his fascination and learning from the CGI Lion King - and I vaguely recall it connecting to the volume being created/used? for the Mandalorian). And education! On the flip side.... Like Spielberg, (who I'd read had Paul Shrader ghost rewrite CE3k)- not everyone can be a great director/producer/writer... People poke holes into James Cameron's writing- but- for a solo act, whenever he's written/directed, it's pretty much been a home run critically and box office wise. Speilberg and Lucas may have good instincts in certain areas- but Lucas himself has said he's not a great screenwriter and needed help. Speilberg's only full writing credit was CE3k. At the same time- it's a pity that Lucas didn't have SOMEBODY to tell him that having Luke and Leia be twins was a horrible idea in ROTJ- as well as Ewoks. And..... as bad as the original trilogy was- arguably what Disney delivered overall might have been a lot worse! (* The original ROTJ outline according to Kurtz if I recall right - or was it Kasdan? - Han dies in the first act- at the end, Leia becomes the Queen of the new Empire (more fairy tale like and I preferred that), Luke leaves the galaxy to look for his twin sister and start gathering new Jedi. I don't know if this is/was true, but I do prefer that wrapup!)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 3:07:51 GMT -5
Wow. Could things have been EVEN worse than Lester's contributions? Well- playing that game of shaving costs- Imagine Canon having taken over for a minute.... #1: The budget gets hacked and slashed- of course. #2: No Paris opening (which I'm ok with) - but with costs being extra low, we don't even get the poor added fx shots added in the RDC, but a cardboard Lois falling fx shot. (Or no fx shots, somehow she jumps out the window & then does'nt bounce off the awning, but straight into the fruit stand) #3: Niagara scene rewritten so that you don't actually see Superman save the kid, but it's talked about in dialogue. off-camera!!! (Imagine the savings!!!) #4: For SURE we would have had the hotel screen test instead of an actual scene! #5: Questionable if Canon wanted to pay Susannah York's fee for SII- so, we get the cheaper actor who first speaks, with Lester's rat wig on to portray Lara! #6: For the scene where Supes goes to get the flower, it's off camera.... or rewritten so that Supes just walks into the next room... or no flower. (Rewrite it so that Lois already ate dinner so, saving props) Again, more savings! #7: On the plus side, Lester's ridiculous additions of all the visual gags from the Metro battle is nixed- unfortunately, there's only one battle shot done by Donner where Supes punches Non and another where he's knocked into the statue of liberty. (Which is actually probably more exciting anyways considering how short the Lester battle was). #8: The bus tossed at Supes is downscaled as too costly.... so, it's either a miniature shot completely or a bicycle is replaced as the vehicle that Ursa and NOn toss at Supes.... and the line is rewritten from "Nnnooo! The peeoople!!!" to "Nnnooo! The bicycle!!!". #9: The memory kiss scene is considered too costly for the grand finale, so Canon just recycles the end of STM.... wait.... didn't the RDC do this, too??? ;p
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 11, 2023 2:43:47 GMT -5
Reshooting the Luther scenes with just Valerie Perine and Ned Beatty seems like the best bet. Ms Teschmacher would break Otis out of prison while fake Luther would be left behind (hey ever hear of parachutes!). Teschmacher and Otis would visit the fortress and then just Teschmacher would show up at the White House to try to get the villains to do her bidding (maybe she would have recovered the kryptonite necklace as her ace in the hole). What about if the producers had decided to cut Margot Kidder from the movie since she said bad things about the Salkinds? They could have brought in Annette oToole as Lana Lang to replace the Lois. The opening scene could have been re-written to have Mr White saying “Kent I need to you to go undercover to expose the honeymoon racket in Niagara Falls and since Lois is in Paris meet Lana Lang Smallvilles newest gift to Metropolis!” I think it's a fun mental exercise to go through and re-imagine it.... the fortress was already rebuilt, so Lester could have just reshot it in the same tv style like the rest. Teschmacher and Otis are a possibility, but Ned Beatty had (if I recall right) either won or was nominated for an Oscar prior to STM--- so it's also possible that a rewrite would have had a cheaper actor/new character for Teschmacher to bounce lines off of rather than Beatty. In listing the Lex scenes that would have had to have been replaced or omitted: #1: The jail laundry room talks about the plot- but that could have been done with Teschmacher finding written plans by Lex or whatnot and had her find that box that he had worked on in his old HQ (though to cheap it up, only a section rebuilt of course) #2: The jailbreak scene wouldn't be necessary if. Teschmacher had a new assistant of her own if she wanted to be the 'lead villain'. #3: The journey to FOS- was already going to be reshot in long shots with extras, so that was already money going to be spent. #4: The set with the FOS was already being rebuilt, so having Teschmacher & an assistant filling in to talking to the council wouldn't be that big a deal cost=wise. #5: Rebuilding the white house room would be an expense, but perhaps not that big, with Teschmacher talking to the villains. #6: The DP attack - considering how so much of it was broken down into different angles, I could see reshot (they were doing reshoots anyways)- with Teschmacher filling in for Lex. #7: Similarly, the last scene with Lex is in the FOS- and, since they reshot much of it with the Hackman double- it wouldn't cost that much to just do that with Perrine also. The main loss (outside of being shot cheap-looking under Lester) would be those great comic moments between Hackman and the villains.... it certainly would have been different with Perrine and the villains, but it actually might not have been that bad a change- (except for my feeling that most of Lester's gags have been extremely unfunny based on his SII and SIII additions.) From a story point of view, though, I think it could have worked.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 19:15:05 GMT -5
Just like every other creator, their earlier stuff isn’t as good as their later stuff. There’s also the factor of studio interference getting the better half of them as well. By Return of the Jedi, Lucas was letting the idea of higher merchandise profits drive his creativity instead of progressing the story. Favreau’s success drove him to do the unthinkable like do The Lion King. With Lucas- looking at THX-1138 and reading the original Star Wars draft by Lucas and the theatrical one that was reportedly ghost-written by the team that did "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom"--- From the difference in clarity and quality of the theatrical release of Star Wars: A New Hope & the original draft (which seems not just unrecognizeable, but imo not very interesting either!).... I have a feeling- with all due respect to Lucas- he's just not that great a writer and has bad instincts at times. Based on the story choices for ROTJ and the prequels- and really enjoying the pacing and fun of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.... I could totally believe that they did ghost-rewrite Star Wars's script. I don't think that it's a foregone conclusion that later stuff is necessarily going to be worse, but that other factors can come into play. Favreau's output has always seemed to be hit/miss all along. Zarathustra and "Cowboys and ALiens" put me on the edge of sleep- I don't know if they were 'bad' but dull to me. I was suprised, too, how much he loved doing the Lion King in CGI. But- then again- what the fans love doesn't always equal what the creators of said works love. (Just look at SW: Special Edition!)
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 19:03:40 GMT -5
If so... Can you imagine rewriting LEX out of SII to avoid paying Hackman a percentage as well?--- and then handing it over to Lester?
Weirdly, I could imagine the story 'working'..... especially as Lester (unfortunately imo) decided to make the criminals and the citizens of Houston as the 'comic relief' anyhow. (Not to mention the metro battle- ugh!)
Storywise- this might have been doable-
* You'd lose the Lex/Fos bit- but was it completely needed? * You'd have to have the villains discover the DP and - if wanted- if Valerie Perrine agred to it.... you could have had Lex stay in prison and had her 'take over' Lex's plot (with the idea that she was much sharper than Lex and that she had her own agenda)... then had her take the villains to the DP, through 'clever' editing...
- and then Lester would have really shot most of the film- and actually 'earned' (sorta) the full director's credit. (in theory).
I hate to admit it, but if Hackman had the same contract and the Salkind didn't want to pay Hackman points as well- then.... storywise, I hate to admit rewriting Hackman's Lex could have still worked- though it would have meant losing a ton of Donner material- and imo made it really seem like SIII, outside of some key Donner scenes that would have still existed.
Thoughts?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 12:37:40 GMT -5
We will bring them to their knees! Wait! First you must find them. What... do you want?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 12:36:29 GMT -5
Fans are the only ones who are willing to preserve material like this. Gotta admit it royally pissed me off when Jon Favreau dismissed all of the efforts being made by the fans of the original trilogy who want the unaltered versions of the films to be released. His reasoning was that it wouldn’t appeal to younger fans because it’s just something older fans would want. All the efforts of the fans that created the 4K versions of the originals are proving him wrong. I didn't know he said that- Favreau is a mixed bag to me... On one hand- a lot of the way he talks about how he approaches things sound BRILLIANT--- and.... Iron Man & Mandalorian Season 1 & 2! On the other hand.... Book of Boba Fett and Mandalorian season 3 and Iron Man 2. In ways he really DID emulate George Lucas... both of them. The one that made the original trilogy AND the other one that did the prequels!
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 10:18:16 GMT -5
With old movies being put on then off streaming… it feels more like preservation of said films either become digital on some server or blu-ray. As is, sad that some things- like the extended sii- only exists in crappy VHS tapes and could only be partially restored by fans.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 4:19:13 GMT -5
MOS came out in June 2013. It is disappointing to see that in all this time, we still have not seen: a) an apology to Enrique and the rest of us for the shameful bullying; b) a clear identification of who the so-called "Reeve Only People" were. It's been 10 years -- try to do it please. I think that the forum is smaller with (mostly) very little battling is maybe the best outcome. Plus, considering how old the original Reeve Superman films are, it's amazing that we've been able to still keep any interesting discussions going, no?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 10, 2023 4:13:40 GMT -5
Something to commend Donner about in regard to the making of Radio Flyer was how the initial director and writer, David Mickey Evans, was allowed to stay onboard the movie throughout the production and he learned a lot from him. Donner told he bluntly that he got fracked but that everyone gets a second chance… but not a third. Evans eventually trumped his ill-fated Radio Flyer with The Sandlot. Donner also reportedly was a bit of a mentor for the writer of Conspiracy Theory - Brian Helgeland- who went on to write/direct "Payback" with Mel.... which itself got a director to reshoot 30 percent of the scenes from dissatisfaction by Mel. (The movie was ok, but did feel a little 'off'- the director's cut is better, but both versions I've mostly forgotten- so... )
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 9, 2023 15:29:37 GMT -5
Donner’s shot himself in the foot in that regard when he said that he didn’t want to share credit. This may be another repeat of my point, but I believe Donner was seriously thinking that everyone involved in the production was just going to walk out with him not returning. He was obviously wrong. I hear all the time that Jack O'Halloran didn’t want to return without Donner but obviously follow through on that threat. I think it all goes to how much was brewing anger-wise throughout production... that the movie ended up great and got a great response critic and boxoffice wise probably made a part of Donner feel vindicated and feel that the producers should have apologized for how they treated him, and let him take over the reins of control for SII- rather than get sacked and replaced by Lester. Oddly, I could see both the producers' side (who initiated it and came up with the money) and Donner's side. Lester's, not so much, since he didn't give credit (imo) where it was due. (Until he apologizes to me and helps get the SII extended cut on blu ray to happen, then I'll change my tune. Also, he could buy me lunch. Just because.
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 9, 2023 15:21:33 GMT -5
Also.... Who is 'vagina Donner'? He seems popular in this forum. Is he at all related to Richard Donner?
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Post by crazy_asian_man on Jun 9, 2023 15:19:56 GMT -5
See, the author dismisses interpretations like that and wanted the audience believe what we saw actually happened. To me, this is one of those movies that baffles me how it got made. Did no one else believe that the way the story was presented would gather exactly the reaction that you and many others had? They certainly found out quick when he gathered none of the reaction they were looking for. Sorry to dwell on this one for so long, but I always keen on this one, especially how Donner essentially played a Lester role in for this film. The script (If I remember right) in a magazine article back then had "Radio Flyer' on a list of one of the best scripts that never got made- (It might have been the late "Script" magazine, along with the at the time- then-unproduced "Jacob's Ladder") but... again, as gripping as the rest of the movie was to me- it needed some satisfying ending to the story, and I'm not even sure it exists!
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